Regdop 11th March 2018, 02:06 PM Hi Guys,
Ive been setting up my new 10" saw from carbatec, and Ive measured the distance from the saw table track at the front of the blade, then rotate the blade to measure the same tooth at the rear using a digital dial guage. The difference is 0.008" should I worry about this? Should I correct it? What will it mean to my cut accuracy if I leave it? I should mention the generic instructions that come with the saw are BLOODY PATHETIC, Ive basically done all the final assembly myself. I think that Ive identified the mounting bolts to the saw blade mechanism to adjust the parallel....
elanjacobs 11th March 2018, 02:43 PM So that's about 0.2mm. Which way is it out? Is the front closer to the track or the back?
If the back is closer, you should probably fix it or you'll get the back of the blade re-cutting your work when using jigs/fences in the track. If the front is closer it's less likely to make a big difference, as long as the fence is still parallel to the blade.
auscab 11th March 2018, 02:50 PM I think that Ive identified the mounting bolts to the saw blade mechanism to adjust the parallel....
Isn't the adjustment done by loosening the 4 bolts , or 3 of the 4 that hold the Cast Iron top to the body ?
That's how I adjusted two of My saws . The first a Carbatec model , the second Wadkin Bursgreen.
Rob
44Ronin 11th March 2018, 02:51 PM Make some cuts and check, no idea why you'd flip a blade backwards?
rrich 11th March 2018, 03:05 PM What does it measure in the other track? It should be -0.008
What you're concerned about is about a half of 1/64.
Assuming that the miter gauge tracks are truly parallel, I would align the trunnion or table top to be straight with the blade. If your miter gauge slots are not parallel, then I would align the blade to the left slot. This way you'll be able to make perfectly square cuts. The down side is that when you align the fence it is a bit more difficult to do off of the left slot.
Make sure that there is no run out (wobble) in the blade and / or arbor.
BTW - When aligning the fence it is best to have the back of the fence 0.001 to 0.002 wide or right (away) from the blade.
BTW2 - When aligning the trunnion or table top to the blade use new washers. It is best to use garage door hardware washers as they are likely hardened. The slightest distortion or burr in the washers will throw the alignment off.
elanjacobs 11th March 2018, 03:09 PM no idea why you'd flip a blade backwards?
Ummm I think he meant rotate it 180 degrees to measure the same tooth, not turn it back to front
John.G 11th March 2018, 09:12 PM The front should be running fractionally closer to the fence then the rear: It's called lead - Circular saws are supposed to have it.
Mobyturns 12th March 2018, 06:46 AM The front should be running fractionally closer to the fence then the rear: It's called lead - Circular saws are supposed to have it.
Helps prevent "work piece ejection."
John.G 12th March 2018, 07:54 AM Helps prevent "work piece ejection."
Reduces heat build up in the body of the saw so they dont drop tension also.
Lead is actually really really important, at least with the big gear. Beyond tooth angles and sawplate tension it's the most common cause of issues with badly sawn boards.
Treecycle 12th March 2018, 09:46 AM If the entry side of your blade is closer to the fence then accuracy of your cut will not be effected when ripping. If the entry side is the larger distance then you will get a double cut as the wood passes through, once as it enters the blade and again a small cut as it exits. Not only will this give you a rough finish but also is more prone to kickback as you never want your blade to be cutting at the rear.
If you can get your blade closer to parallel with the mitre slots then you will be much happier in the future. If your blade is not close to parallel then one of the pieces is going to get the rough cut, either the piece you want or the offcut.
tonzeyd 12th March 2018, 11:24 AM If anything thats the most important discrepancy to worry about, as everything else will be used to reference off the track so I'd try get it as close as dead on as possible. eg when you make yourself a sled, or make adjustments to your fence it'll all reference off your track.
Have you also checked your arbor? and flanges? these can also have an impact on how "straight" your saw cuts.
Treecycle 12th March 2018, 02:23 PM Have you also checked your arbor? and flanges? these can also have an impact on how "straight" your saw cuts.
How?
rustynail 12th March 2018, 03:52 PM As John G said, it's the lead on the blade. Make sure its narrow at the front of the blade to the fence, not the rear. If so, all is well.
tonzeyd 12th March 2018, 06:35 PM How?
Check for wobble/flatness with a dial indicator, if you youtube it there are loads of tutorials on it
Treecycle 12th March 2018, 07:13 PM Didn't mean how to check them, i meant how does that have an effect on cut straightness?
tonzeyd 12th March 2018, 07:25 PM Not quite sure if you're trolling...
If you're using a dial indicator and testing the straightness of your saw tracks using the OP's method if you have anything that is out of kilter it'll give you inaccurate readings.
Besides its just good practice to check everything is in good working order before turning the machine on as blade wobble will cause a bunch of other issues.
Regdop 13th March 2018, 02:04 PM Not quite sure if you're trolling...
If you're using a dial indicator and testing the straightness of your saw tracks using the OP's method if you have anything that is out of kilter it'll give you inaccurate readings.
Besides its just good practice to check everything is in good working order before turning the machine on as blade wobble will cause a bunch of other issues.
Are you referring to me being a troll??? Hope not... its a genuine question. This is my first Table Saw and Im trying to set it up properly. Are there any Carbatec Saw owners on here that can steer me in the right direction?... Cheers
tonzeyd 13th March 2018, 04:02 PM no mate, was referring to the post above.
Did the top come attached to your saw when you got it? If it didnt the screws that you used to secure the top are the screws you loosen to adjust the discrepancy. Its a matter of loosen, give it a tap in the right direction check, and repeat till you get it dead on. Check again after you've re-tightened the bolts as tightening can sometimes cause it to move.
My comments above was in relation to Treecycles comment, as when you're trying to get a reference point you need to make sure your reference point is reliable. So its important to also check your blade to ensure its not warped, check your arbor for wobble, and check the inner and outer flanges to make sure they are flat. Its probably more important to check the inner flange as that's what'll cause your readings to potentially go out of wack. The outside flange/washer is easy to check as you just place in on a flat surface (ie table top) and check it sits flat.
You'll need a dial indicator and stand to make the adjustments, if you don't have one there are other ways of checking but won't be as accurate/easy to do. eg i'm sure you could do the five cut method but that'll be quite time consuming.
Regdop 13th March 2018, 05:08 PM no mate, was referring to the post above.
Did the top come attached to your saw when you got it? If it didnt the screws that you used to secure the top are the screws you loosen to adjust the discrepancy. Its a matter of loosen, give it a tap in the right direction check, and repeat till you get it dead on. Check again after you've re-tightened the bolts as tightening can sometimes cause it to move.
My comments above was in relation to Treecycles comment, as when you're trying to get a reference point you need to make sure your reference point is reliable. So its important to also check your blade to ensure its not warped, check your arbor for wobble, and check the inner and outer flanges to make sure they are flat. Its probably more important to check the inner flange as that's what'll cause your readings to potentially go out of wack. The outside flange/washer is easy to check as you just place in on a flat surface (ie table top) and check it sits flat.
You'll need a dial indicator and stand to make the adjustments, if you don't have one there are other ways of checking but won't be as accurate/easy to do. eg i'm sure you could do the five cut method but that'll be quite time consuming.
Yeah the table top was attached to the cabinet when it was unboxed, I did put the extension sides on but they in no way affected the issue. I did check both mitre tracks either side of the saw blade and they both give the same result one negative one positive. I did however loosen these off to try and "twist" the table top but there is no travel in the bolt holes. I rang Carabatec to ask for advice, the guy I spoke to didnt know (??) but he promised to get another guy to call me back.... still waithing 4 hrs later.. I also emailed them yesterday... no reply as yet. The error means the distance between the saw blade and the fence gets less at the back to the blade, so I need to fix this before i cut anything... waiting on my sparky for a 15 amp power point anyway
Lappa 13th March 2018, 05:18 PM By checking the front tooth, then rotating the blade 180 and checking at the same tooth, as the OP did, will cancel out most other problem areas, I believe, and show blade vs mitre slot variation.
Treecycle 13th March 2018, 05:42 PM You could have a look at this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12f3P6hRLFQ) and see if one of the saws matches yours closely for an explanation on how different types of saws are adjusted. This guy actually works at Carbatec.
woodPixel 13th March 2018, 05:51 PM Its a good topic, but not one for angry words :)
Here are a few articles which you'll find useful:
https://woodgears.ca/delta_saw/alignment.html
https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/outfitting-woodworking-shop/tune-up-your-tablesaw
Aligning your tablesaw in two planes - FineWoodworking (http://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/04/27/aligning-tablesaw-two-planes)
Once set up it rarely needs doing again. I check mine yearly (for 7 years now) and it's only been out a little bit once when I whacked it with a massive log.
If you don't have a micrometer, you can use a stick and screw on the front/back tooth to get it very very close. This is very low tech and Im quite certain I did a writeup here on how to use this method.... (I'll see if I can find it).
The 45-deg setting is the most challenging. Mine has never been right. Perhaps time to give it another crack....
Regdop, post some photos!
tonzeyd 13th March 2018, 06:08 PM If you find your Carbatec manual is useless or doesn't contain enough info. I find the Grizzly versions of the manual are much more detailed and better written.
So try to hunt for your table saw's manual on the Grizzly website it might give you the guidance you require.
Ps I've never received a call back from Carbatec so I wouldn't hold your breath
Here's a good link outlining the variations on table top mounts hopefully it helps.
https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/outfitting-woodworking-shop/tune-up-your-tablesaw
Regdop 13th March 2018, 08:14 PM Its a good topic, but not one for angry words :)
Regdop, post some photos!
Ill try and get some photos up before the weekend...cheers!
Regdop 13th March 2018, 08:15 PM If you find your Carbatec manual is useless or doesn't contain enough info. I find the Grizzly versions of the manual are much more detailed and better written.
Even the cheapest Grizzly is way better than any Carbatec model, however I did look and came up zilch... cheers anyway
Mobyturns 14th March 2018, 09:26 AM Regdop, its a frustrating experience assembling, setting up and then fine tuning a TS for the first time. A cabinet style TS with mitre tracks at least gives you some points of reference.
Try fine tuning the "panel saw" style sliding table saws like the Woodfast / record TS250 with no machined mitre tracks. Getting the top of the sliding table co-planar with the cast iron table, removing slop / play in the rollers supporting the sliding panel table is fun, then getting it running "parallel" to the blade with some lead is even more fun.
Now that is a lesson in chasing your tail if you follow the directions in the manual. The recommended process puts you into an endless loop of adjustments, hopefully one where iteration (# of cycles) will eventually solve the issue, unless you go the wrong way then its more cycles of adjustment. There is an easier way though ... as I quickly found out - it involved the judicious use of a knockometer - after loosening the sub-chasis mounting bolts.
aldav 14th March 2018, 11:40 AM I have a contractor saw with the trunnions bolted directly to the table top. When adjusting I make a mark on the back of the rear trunnion mounting face and the adjacent table top casting. I use a screw clamp to move the trunnion across the trunnion mounting area on the table. I find it much better than tapping because of the much greater control that can be exercised. It's the same as using an L-bracket trunnion adjuster as shown in the wood magazine article linked to by tonzeyd without having to buy or make one. The marks allow you to judge what is happening with a fair degree of accuracy. Trying to make any very small adjustment by tapping is a complete PITA, no wonder people just give up and decide 'that'll do'!
If you have the option of doing something similar with your cabinet saw it may be worth a go.
Regdop 15th March 2018, 12:58 PM Regdop, its a frustrating experience assembling, setting up and then fine tuning a TS for the first time. A cabinet style TS with mitre tracks at least gives you some points of reference.
Try fine tuning the "panel saw" style sliding table saws like the Woodfast / record TS250 with no machined mitre tracks. Getting the top of the sliding table co-planar with the cast iron table, removing slop / play in the rollers supporting the sliding panel table is fun, then getting it running "parallel" to the blade with some lead is even more fun.
Now that is a lesson in chasing your tail if you follow the directions in the manual. The recommended process puts you into an endless loop of adjustments, hopefully one where iteration (# of cycles) will eventually solve the issue, unless you go the wrong way then its more cycles of adjustment. There is an easier way though ... as I quickly found out - it involved the judicious use of a knockometer - after loosening the sub-chasis mounting bolts.
Cheers for this advice!!!! IT really did come in useful, just knowing other people have been faced with this frustration gave me strength to continue and eventually SOLVE the issue...WooHoo!
Regdop 15th March 2018, 01:16 PM Here's some photos as promised...
431817431818431819
The first photo is from the right hand side , the second from the left and the third again from the right but showing the only mountings of the saw assembly to the table top.. I have managed finally to square the saw blade to the mitre tracks…… The two rather Bronze looking blocks you can see at the top of the photo, hold the pivot point for the saw to swing to 45 degrees, and thats all I thought the did....They actually also have some forwards and backwards travel allowing the blade to be adjusted…I now have a saw balde perfectly parallel to both mitre tracks, and dead on 90 deg to the table top....WooHoo!!
From my limited knowledge and you tube videos this "trunion?" assembly is unlike most others? hence my confusion.. All good though now. I have nightshifts for the next four nights then I can concentrateon fitting my Incra fence!!.... Cheers everyone for your input!...Gary
During my attempted squaring of the saw I inadvertently made the error greater than first measured... In frustration I wrote to axminster in the UK because they have rebranded the exact same saw... read below my email and their response which I find utterly unprofessional and unbelievable!!!!(well within accepted tolerances??????)
Hi
I have purchased an Axminster AW10BSB2…lovely saw. Unfortunately I have a 0.060” difference in the saw blade tracking when measured using a dial gauge mounted in the mitre tracks. This error is mirrored in the opposing track, one being negative 0.060” and the other being polite 0.060” I have tried to correct it using the under table bolts in the four corners of the cabinet but this has not helped.. I have researched on line and in the user manual but can find no information on how to correct it. I have looked at the trunion assembly but to be honest I fail to see which adjustment I need to make to fix my error. Could you please assist me with this?
Kind regards
Gary Podger
Dear Mr Podger
The difference that you are stating in the accuracy on the blade, would be well within the expected manufacturing tolerances.
As there is no other adjustment other than the cradle support block on the underside of the table.
These could be filed to remove burrs etc, but I am not sure if the modification on the block will reduce the difference.
Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor
Axminster Tools & Machinery
Phone: 0800 371 822
Web: www.axminster.co.uk (http://www.axminster.co.uk/)
tonzeyd 15th March 2018, 03:22 PM Sadly "manufacturing tolerances" and "acceptable tolerances" are two different concepts. This is also the reason why brands like Sawstop/powermatic can charge the amounts they do for their table saws. This is also the tradeoff we face for the the price we paid for our saws.
Having said that wood can move more than the discrepancy you've experienced, so I wouldn't fret about it too much especially since you've now resolved the issue.
elanjacobs 15th March 2018, 06:20 PM Sadly "manufacturing tolerances" and "acceptable tolerances" are two different concepts. This is also the reason why brands like Sawstop/powermatic can charge the amounts they do for their table saws. This is also the tradeoff we face for the the price we paid for our saws.
Yep, precision is an ever-reducing return-on-investment for manufacturers; it takes a lot more effort to build to a tolerance of 0.1mm that to 1mm and the average user won't a) care, b) notice, or c) pay for it.
Treecycle 15th March 2018, 07:35 PM Your thread title says 8 thou out and your email to Axminster says 60 thou and they still say that is okay:(( I can see why he is called the specialist sales advisor and not the specialist repair advisor.
Mobyturns 16th March 2018, 10:22 AM Your thread title says 8 thou out and your email to Axminster says 60 thou and they still say that is okay:(( I can see why he is called the specialist sales advisor and not the specialist repair advisor.
0.060" =1.5mm :rolleyes:
0.008" =0.2mm which I feel is not up to scratch.
I feel his position title should be "Specialist BS Artist"! :D
If the manufacturer feels that 0.060" is acceptable I'm afraid that it puts that saw in the junk category in my book. I would be very pi$$ed off if a saw was that bad.
Its well worth the effort of fine tuning a table saw if you
wish to do fine work.
I regularly cut small parts / components and seek better than 0.1mm repeatability for them, even at that it makes cumulative error an issue for Yosegi or Tunbridge ware style patterns.
skot 1st April 2018, 02:23 PM Thanks for this thread...about 2 months ago I replaced the drive belts on the pulleys of my motor and after I replaced the cast iron table I noticed that trying to align it using a steel rule from mitre guide to saw blade was useless as the cuts would produce back cut with the rear of the blade.
I have a dial gauge, so I set about doing an accurate alignment over this Easter. After making a holder for the dial gauge and some tapping the table this way then that way and measuring after each minor movement. I am now pleased that I have got the table now in good alignment......the rear of the blade now splays minutely away from the mitre guide by just 0.02mm (0.0007"). Now to adjust the rip guide.
Regdop 1st April 2018, 04:28 PM Thanks for this thread...about 2 months ago I replaced the pulleys on my motor and after I replaced the cast iron table I noticed that trying to align it using a steel rule from mitre guide to saw blade was useless as the cuts would produce back cut with the rear of the blade.
I have a dial gauge, so I set about doing an accurate alignment over this Easter. After making a holder for the dial gauge and some tapping the table this way then that way and measuring after each minor movement. I am now pleased that I have got the table now in good alignment......the rear of the blade now splays minutely away from the mitre guide by just 0.02mm (0.0007"). Now to adjust the rip guide.
Cheers Scott, happy to compare notes over a tea/coffee/beer if youre ever keen.. Gary
skot 7th April 2018, 11:02 AM I just realised a job for this weekend...now that I have my tablesaw set up nicely.......I have to re sled my shop made cross cut jigs. They will be slightly out of alignment as the blade is in a slightly different location & orientation to when I made the jigs.
It never ends this hobby lark does it ?
pker 8th April 2018, 08:00 AM skot,
I know how you feel as I'm in the same boat , but it won't be this weekend.
pker
skot 8th April 2018, 01:27 PM After doing a tune up last weekend, I did some check cuts and it appeared to be back cutting at the rear of the blade AGAIN.
When I checked the alignment the table top was out of alignment again. Scratched my head for awhile and decided to start from scratch....... undoing the holding bolts....measuring......adjusting.....measuring....all looked good.
I decided to keep the dial gauge on the blade while tightening the 3 bolts that hold the cast table to the cabinet.......BUGGER.....the table moves ever so slightly when tightening. I wouldn't have thought it would make a difference but I was measuring to 0.01mm and the table would move in the same direction that I was tightening the bolts thus moving the guide slot closer to the rear of the blade.
So with trial and error, I OVER adjusted while unbolted so that the rear of the blade measured as having a wider gap then I actually want to finish with. As I tightened the bolts to gap reduced till I achieved a satisfactory setting.
This was on a Laguna 10" Fusion tablesaw. I do not know if this would happen on other saws.
elanjacobs 8th April 2018, 02:02 PM I had the same problem when setting buzzer blades, you just need to work out how far it moves when you tighten and allow for it when you're making adjustments.
Mr Brush 8th April 2018, 04:17 PM "It's the 0.001" that keeps me awake at nights" :rolleyes:
rrich 8th April 2018, 04:46 PM Two things about alignment.
Your riving knife, splitter or anti kick back pawl needs to be aligned with the arbor flange. We can't do that so we align it with the side of the blade that is next to the nut. Not a big deal except that you'll have to realign the riving knife etc. with every blade change.
Washers bend, warp or get burrs. When you're tightening them and the table moves your alignment efforts are wasted. The advice here is to purchase some 'Garage Door' washers. These washers are usually hardened and don't distort under pressure. If you can't find the hardened washers just use two new ones in place of the old one.
Matt NQ 15th April 2018, 01:35 PM My new Ozito table saw has a misalignment of about 0.2mm between the blade and the riving knife. The riving knife can't be moved any further inward, so it looks like I have to shim the blade. I've ordered some mild steel 0.1mm washers on ebay and I'm waiting for them. I couldn't find any shim washers the right size to go between the flange and the blade. The ones I've ordered will go between the flange and the axle plate. Both the flange and the axle plate are ground with tiny concentric circles rather than flat - will this create issues with the shims, or even help stop them slipping? Any issues with stacking the shims (will probably need 2 or 3)? The shim size is 0.1mm x 16mm (axle size) x 28mm (a touch bigger than the 26mm axle plate).
woodPixel 15th April 2018, 03:29 PM Make shims from coke cans. They are 0.1mm thickness to a highly exacting degree.
Cut them with scissors, or scalpel/sharpie, drill centres on a press.
rrich 15th April 2018, 04:38 PM Make shims from coke cans. They are 0.1mm thickness to a highly exacting degree.
Cut them with scissors, or scalpel/sharpie, drill on drill centres on drill press.
I think using a beer can would be a bit more fun. :U
Matt NQ 15th April 2018, 05:16 PM Not a drinker, but I do like Bundaberg ginger beer... :U Off to the supermarket now.
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