Handling a quote dispute

[vGolfer]

Hi guys, I'm was trying to decide of I should include this in an ongoing thread of mine, but I thought it ws worthy of its own thread.

I had 4 quotes to rebuild the subfloor of my house - F17 bearers (90x45) and joists (90x45 laminated together) and concrete stumps. Three of the quotes were around the $8K mark. Another was for around that as well, but $7K for cash. I decided to go with the $7K bloke.

Anyway, job gets 3/4 the way through and the bloke laying the floor says in broken english "job needs more timber". I think he was a subcontractor for the company. Anyway the job was finished and the bloke that gave me the quote calls today and says "With all the extra timber and work, the job comes to $11K". I said "you've got to be kidding me mate?"

I said to him that if someone made a mistake during measure, then I shouldn't have to pay for it. I also told him that if I had've known the job was going to be that much, I would have gone with someone else. I offered $7.5K max.

He said I could pay him the $7.5K now and the balance later. I told hom that I couldn't afford the difference and that I should not have to pay for their incompetence.

Any advice here as to how I should move forward?

BTW, he reckons that he pays $9 per LM for F17 90x45's. I got a quote about a month back and that was about $5.80 per LM and I'm not even in the trade!

[echnidna]

Did you get written quotes, if so they are legally enforceable.
If verbal you have a bit more hassle as he may say that he never gives quotes only estimates.
Do NOT PAY ANYTHING until the amount is resolved.
I think you woiuld be well advised to get a solicitor to make a written offer of 7.5K and see where it goes from there. The one off cost of a lawyer to write one letter isn't great but could be worthwhile insurance for the future

[vGolfer]

Did you get written quotes, if so they are legally enforceable.
If verbal you have a bit more hassle as he may say that he never gives quotes only estimates.
Do NOT PAY ANYTHING until the amount is resolved.
I think you woiuld be well advised to get a solicitor to make a written offer of 7.5K and see where it goes from there. The one off cost of a lawyer to write one letter isn't great but could be worthwhile insurance for the future

I did get a written quote, however the amount of timber quoted was below what was actually used. My guess was he underestimated the amount of timber deliberately to ensure he got the job and he'd worry about collecting the money later.

[echnidna]

What about the amount of timber his competitors quoted

[vGolfer]

What about the amount of timber his competitors quoted

I didn't receive written quotes from the others so I couldn't say exactly how much timber they estimated. They gave me fixed price quotes and said there would be no variations.

It's not exactly a huge job!

[ozwinner]

I did get a written quote, however the amount of timber quoted was below what was actually used. My guess was he underestimated the amount of timber deliberately to ensure he got the job and he'd worry about collecting the money later.

Sounds to me like you need to limber up a bit.
If you dont limber up, you might stain a muscle when you stick your head between your legs and kiss your nads goobye.

Al :eek:

[vGolfer]

Sounds to me like you need to limber up a bit.
If you dont limber up, you might stain a muscle when you stick your head between your legs and kiss your nads goobye.

Al :eek:

With the greatest amount of respect, should I have to pay for someone else's incompetence? He measured and quoted. Now he's saying it's $4K more than what he initially thought.

[ThePope]

You've offered him more than what he quoted for, if he doesn't except that stuff him. He under estimated the job by over 50% and now he wants you to wear it, I don't think so...

[echnidna]

I would feel exactly the same so I would go to war.
Trouble is you must do it legally right, or you can come unstuck and I don't wan't to be a lawyer. (Thats the biggest bum of a job of all time) (Apologies to all members who are lawyers)

Your solicitor could write him a nice letter pointing out;
he only got the job because his quote was lower than the other fixed price quotes you recieved, and if he doesn't accept you kind offer to pay him the full sum that he quoted and not one penny more then he has a serious problem. Warn him if he takes a legal action that you will pay the amount he quoted to the clerk of courts.

If he goes to Court after getting a solicitors letter like that he is a foolish gambler.

[maglite]

I would have thought that the quote would be legally binding on all parties.

If the paper work says quote rather than estimate you probably have a pretty good case.
I would contact the nearest pro organisation ie MBA etc or seek legal advice.

Was the quote fixed or did it allow for any variations?
From what i hear, the ATO takes a very grim veiw of businesses trading in the black economy. ;)
Food for thought.

[elphingirl]

I agree - he will not want to be reported to the ATO - might be useful in 'negotiations'.

As I understand, a verbal quote is still binding, although very difficult to prove. And as a rule, any variations should be requested in writing prior to works. But a lawyer should be able to write a juicy letter for you.

These guys might also be helpful:
http://www.buildingcommission.com.au/www/default.asp?casid=3343

Good luck, Justine

[sol381]

Give him the 7 grand and tell him to **** off. If i built a house for someone or did any sort of work and i forgot an item in my quote, too bad for me. To quote on something as simple as a subfloor and get it wrong is just idiocy. THeres probably only 3 or 4 items to work out.
Id give your solicitor a quick call, let him know what is going on see what happens..
DO NOT PAY HIM A CENT MORE THAN THE QUOTE.
STEF

[Sturdee]

A written quote is just that - a "quote". Whilst it is commonly assumed, it is not a contract for the work to be done.

So there are 2 questions that will affect your outcome :

1. Did you accept the quote in writing confirming that the amount quoted was the all inclusive maximum amoun to be paid for the works.

2. What did you say/agree to when told that the job needs more timber than allowed for in the quote.


Depending on the answer to these questions you will either have to pay up or not.

Hence the advise to immediately see a solicitor before doing anything ( or making any further offers or part payment ) would be a good idea.

Remember the " fine print" decides these issues, irrespective of your moral rights, hence always pay attention to these minor details. As much as I think your morally right I think that Ozwinner's advice is spot on. :D

Peter.

[vGolfer]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't out of step by telling him he should wear the cost.

I actually got quotes for materials - and I'm not in the Trade.

F17 Timber: $1730
Treated Pine used for bottom plates: $260
Concrete Stumps: $160
Concrete 32mpa delivered 1m3: 200
Inspector: $300 ish

Total: $2650

Plus a bit for nails!

The guy said he pays his contractor 36% of the job. That's another $2700. So he's still going to make a couple of grand clear profit just for signing me up!

I may just offer him the $7K and bugger it...no extra $500

[echnidna]

Treated pine for bottom plates?

the building regs may have changed but you were not permitted to use fresh sawn ends on treated pine underground. All ends had to be treated so they could not rot.
I would also want to see proof that the treated pine was suitable for in ground use (as not all treated pine is suitable in ground.)

See a lawyer.

[ozwinner]

I dont like to see anyone ripped off, but if he qouted on a quantity of materials, and the job went over the quantity, then I think you have to pay.

Either that or the job gets stopped 3/4 of the way through.

I have dvd on Yoga that came free with the Age a few weeks ago.
I can send it if you want.
Might help you limber up.

Al :D

[seriph1]

I preface this with a loud yell that I am Unqualified to give any advice on this matter!!!!!!!

If you haven’t paid anything - don't for now, always pleasantly letting him know you’re willing to pay what was agreed but only what was agreed. BUT and it's a big one ...... if you were told there was a need for more materials and agreed to that, then it could be considered a variation. Was there an estimate of the time required to do the job? How long (or much longer) did the job take and how much more material was needed? Did he do work on the job personally or just “sell it”? How did you source his name – Yellow Pages, Local Paper, Referral?

Don't get me wrong - I believe you and everyone here is right. It just isn’t a simple thing as can be seen.

We all seem to get these lessons over and over again and I for one, am a bad learner much to my wife’s displeasure.

I am about to enter a medi-bloody-ation over non-payment for work done as a designer........ the people loved absolutely everything except when the business cards arrived, they get on the phone and tell me they’re unhappy because they wanted the card to "flip" over to see the other side (hard to explain, but instead of both sides of the card being "up" they wanted one to be upside down). I tried to explain to them that this just isn’t how cards are and that while it sounds like a good idea, it isn’t......note here I am the designer not the printer, but they’re not paying for anything because of this, including any printing which is all done and paid for by yours truly - I offered to pay half the cost of the replacement cards ONCE they’ve paid all else, or simply deduct 1/2 the card cost from the final invoice - nope, not a chance - the result? I am waiting for $1600 for months and they have the benefits of my work and are using it illegally as clearly stated in copyright law ....... the moral - the law will save you.....but you'll go broke or starve using it, seeing it will cost me around a grand to pursue them.

Work something out with the guy and be clear about what your position is. Get legal advice regarding what's what and remember - while he might get some grief over his doing cash jobs, you might get some more serious grief of your own when he works out who dobbed him in (or threatened to) - after all, he knows where you live. I am not kidding, especially if he is "of that nasty type". Finally, the amount of work involved probably means permits were required - if you have them then fine - if not and he knows (he will), it may not go so well if he decides quid-pro-quo, or in effect no-quids - pro - quo.

OK enough of my bush-lawyer’ing and BS’ing for one day - I am going to finish vacuuming beofre SWMBO comes home

:D

[Gingermick]

Did he estimate off plans produced by someone else or by his own visual inspection?
We have to pay variations to a contract when we put the wrong figure in a bill of quantities. But if the contractor underestimates the cost of an item, he is told sorry, but dont make the same mistake again. (Thats a written contract though)
He needs to have a pretty good reason for underestimating. Did he have to replace existing work that was apparently good?
I would think he would need to justify his claim against his estimate. Rather than say 'oops, I used more wood than I planned, please pay me'

[Gaza]

As a subie, i would not go to the cilent and say opps i buggered up, i have to wear it in my pocket.

As an owner if i did not agree to a variation then its not payable, agrement in writting or verbal, did he contact u to advise of the possible variation. Under most building contrcats they set out grounds for resloution of varitiosn claims. it is std for him (the suby) to provide invoices for extra materails then you pay the these plus a bit more. BUT ONLY IF U AGREED

Variations are not for making millions of dollars from poor old silly cilents as some builders think, stand up for your rights and do not pay a cent then he will come around as some money is better than no money, if it goes to court you are in the box seat.

If you do pay him the orginal contact value get him to sign a realse that stops him from any further claims. Also do not hand over cold hard cash (thats if you dont have it already under you bed) give him a cash cheque he can go to the bank himself and get it, after he signeds the realse, this way if he is a prick you can stop the cheque.

Also in NSW all building work (domestic) over $1000.00 requires a written contract to protect the home owner, with no contract the debt is not enforacable though the std court system, (it can be enforced but not under home bld act) so ring Vics dept for home builder and have a chat, they are usally most helpful.

[vGolfer]

I probably should have been clearer up front - but the guy came and took measurements. If he underestimated...well bugger it!

I actually think he has done it as a tactic. Under quote - get the job, then say "Sorry, you need to pay an extra $4K". Some will cave in and pay. Others will fight. Either way, he still comes out way in front.

And just to clarify, the only time the contractor said he required more timber was when they had the levels all wrong, and I told them it needed to come up about 15mm. They needed to double up on wall plate timber and jack up the bearers.

[Sturdee]

Did he estimate off plans produced by someone else or by his own visual inspection?


Having just reread the thread on bearer and joist dimensions (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=21411&page=2&pp=15) of last week I doubt that there were either plans drawn or specifications drawn up to cover this job.

Further from these questions it is not clear that you were fully aware scope and dimension of the works involved. Thus I am convinced that, notwithstanding a quote, there was no firm contract, and if there was that there was not an agreed verbal variation. As such I think you're liable for the amount claimed.

I think you will find that your contractor will know his legal rights and can, and will, pursue his claim to your detriment. Also if you complain to the ATO they will find that in this case his books will be in order and everyting properly documented :p as advised by his accountant.


Peter.

[ozwinner]

The offer of the DVD still stands.


Al :)

[echnidna]

see a lawyer

[Gingermick]

Although we work under a very formal arrangement, we still need to justify variations. Though our scope is always clearly defined.
However, isn't a quote akin to saying "I'll sell you this for that'. There is still an implied contract. Offer, acceptance and consideration.
Talk to you local Law society. They will help you.

[outback]

Call me a cynic.

I have a feeling not all the relavant info has come to light. :rolleyes:



Stop offering and send the bloody DVD Al.

[doug the slug]

If you were in queensland i would refer you to the Qld building standards association (QBSA). you must have a local equivalent. find out if this guy is registered with them cos chances are he is required to be to work on structural jobs over $1000. whether he is registered or not i would recommend getting in touch with this body and getting them to mediate, thats their job. do this before you contact a lawyer. this body should have reasonably sharp teeth, and will surely know what your rights are. thats my 2c worht anyway

[Gingermick]

Call me a cynic..

Ok, your a cynic

[vGolfer]

All settled. $7500. The guy came around last night, signed a full release which was witnessed and I handed over payment.

I no doubt learnt a couple of things in this exercise, but I still find the tactics of the guy extremely shady to say the least.

[RufflyRustic]

Congratulations!!! Bet you are very relieved.

cheers
RufflyRustic

[echnidna]

All settled. $7500. The guy came around last night, signed a full release which was witnessed and I handed over payment.

I no doubt learnt a couple of things in this exercise, but I still find the tactics of the guy extremely shady to say the least.

The most important lesson is to get all quotes in writing, including competitors
You have assumed this was a tactic on his part.
He probably made an honest error and tried to recover his losses.

[vGolfer]

The most important lesson is to get all quotes in writing, including competitors
You have assumed this was a tactic on his part.
He probably made an honest error and tried to recover his losses.

I did receive a quote in writing...that was one of the reasons I was so angry. The problem was, he GROSSLY underestimated the amount of work involved.

Next time I do anything like this, I will make sure they measure properly, and insist that any variations that crop up because of their mistakes, are worn by them, not me.

Believe me, it was not an honest mistake on his part.

[TEEJAY]

My experience with lawyers is they say "you have a case" translated it means "I have a job and you will pay me too" ;) . It doesn't mean you will win :p .

In relation to the building works the quote should have happened once you had agreed approved plans outlining extent and detail of work - then no ambiguities :) .

Cheers

[Paul H]

I did receive a quote in writing...that was one of the reasons I was so angry. The problem was, he GROSSLY underestimated the amount of work involved.

Next time I do anything like this, I will make sure they measure properly, and insist that any variations that crop up because of their mistakes, are worn by them, not me.

Believe me, it was not an honest mistake on his part.

Couldn't help putting in my two bobs worth. was the scope of the job fully described? This is where he could state that the required outcome was greater than that originally 'quoted' on.

Cheers
Paul H

[ozwinner]

All settled. $7500. The guy came around last night, signed a full release which was witnessed and I handed over payment.

I no doubt learnt a couple of things in this exercise, but I still find the tactics of the guy extremely shady to say the least.

So you dont want the Yoga DVD then?

Al :D

[vGolfer]

So you dont want the Yoga DVD then?

Al :D

Thanks for the offer but...pass! ;)

[boban]

I cant believe I missed this one... I could go on for hours but there's no one to send the bill to.

[echnidna]

I cant believe I missed this one... I could go on for hours but there's no one to send the bill to.

Obviously you must desperately need some practise.
So we will let you, in your own words, "go on for hours"

Don't worry about the bill, we won't send you one,
we forum members will do it pro bono just for you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[boban]

Oh thanks fellas. I love U2 as well

[Eastie]

Glad it worked out reasonably well (even though you're short $500). In reality with a written quote and no agreed variation he'd have to go to VCAT to claim the rest, and for the cost it would be a fair pain in the neck for him. Chances have it the tribunal would not find in his favour without an an up front quote and agreed variation

[ozwinner]

I love U2 as well

Cool.:cool:

Al :)

[boban]

My experience with lawyers is they say "you have a case" translated it means "I have a job and you will pay me too" ;) . It doesn't mean you will win :p .



My experience with clients is that a lot of them dont tell you the full story or even the truth. Just the version of events as they see it.

[doug the slug]

golfer, it sounds like he accepted the offer quite readily, so you were probably in the right and just gave him another $500 for nothing.

[E. maculata]

My experience with clients is that a lot of them dont tell you the full story or even the truth. Just the version of events as they see it.

Crikey Boban, now every sceptic (& his lawyer :p ) knows the truth is a double jointed animal.

[ozwinner]

Crikey Boban, now every sceptic .

What have Yanks got to do with it??

Al :confused:

[boban]

Crikey Boban, now every sceptic (& his lawyer :p ) knows the truth is a double jointed animal.

Problem is that so many are blind to that fact. No worries about it affecting the status quo, most only realise during cross examination of themselves. After that they turn on the solicitor...."but you said I had a case".

Can I share..... Here I go.

I gave some written advice telling a guy not to commence proceedings until he could prove the damage was caused by a certain event. He commenced anyway. After his cross examination, I again gave the same advice. This time is cost him about $15,000 in legal fees.

After he settles, he starts on his solicitor. An absolute joke. We (my junior) also discovered the truth through some clever investigations with the idea of improving his chances. Guess whose nose was rather large.

As echindna says, its a crappy job a lot of the time. Can you believe that I dreamed of being a barrister when I was a kid. God only knows why.

[echnidna]

Can you believe that I dreamed of being a barrister when I was a kid. God only knows why.

So use your training and your skills
-- become a polly or even a lobbyist - it don't really matter which party as long as you can reach the trough with your snout :D :D :D :D :D

or forget your training and become a Pro Woodie :) :) :) :)

[boban]

Not a chance in hell of becoming a politician. Why on earth do they do that to themselves. I cannot think of a more miserable occupation. Dealing with whingers who dont pay as opposed to those you can bill and hope will pay.

Pro woodie. Sounds good, but then what will my hobby be? A bit like when your sport is overly competitive. Its no longer fun.

The grass is always greener. And I do have good days when I love it. Nothing like a good cross examination to get you on a high again.

[echnidna]

Pro woodie. Sounds good, but then what will my hobby be? A bit like when your sport is overly competitive. Its no longer fun.

The grass is always greener. And I do have good days when I love it. Nothing like a good cross examination to get you on a high again.

Pro woodie is very rewarding as long as you don't over focus on the almighty dollar. It can be an occupation and a recreation simultaneously.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
Thats coz its growing in nice fresh smelly fertiliser, step over the fence and yer right in the poo!

[ian]

I had 4 quotes to rebuild the subfloor of my house - F17 bearers (90x45) and joists (90x45 laminated together) and concrete stumps. Three of the quotes were around the $8K mark. Another was for around that as well, but $7K for cash. I decided to go with the $7K bloke.

Anyway, job gets 3/4 the way through and the bloke laying the floor says in broken english "job needs more timber". I think he was a subcontractor for the company. Anyway the job was finished and the bloke that gave me the quote calls today and says "With all the extra timber and work, the job comes to $11K". I said "you've got to be kidding me mate?"

I said to him that if someone made a mistake during measure, then I shouldn't have to pay for it. I also told him that if I had've known the job was going to be that much, I would have gone with someone else. I offered $7.5K max.

He said I could pay him the $7.5K now and the balance later. I told hom that I couldn't afford the difference and that I should not have to pay for their incompetence.

Any advice here as to how I should move forward?I know you settled the issue for $7,500 (was it in cash?) but IMO you got rolled.

Having accepted a quote for "$7k if paid in cash", the proper answer to the "the job comes to $11k" is the reply "here's a cheque for $7,700 — $7,000 for the job and $700 for GST ... Oh, and what did you say your ABN is?"

It's very unlikely that four contractors all made the same mistake measuring the job — all four prices were about the same. So what appears to have happened is that you were offered a discount for an undeclared job, the subbie probably got screwed (it looks like he supplied the timber), and the contractor got an extra $500 out of you.


just my read of the facts presented

ian

[TEEJAY]

Hey Al, I think there is another candidate for your DVD :D :p :D OOOOOOMMMMMMM :)