The hardest timber. Global hardness chart

[wayfarer]

Interesting.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180608/9a91183e9781a11fcd01c472f2a1eecb.jpg

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[derekcohen]

Where does this fit in?

https://www.fossilera.com/sp/6209/rough/araucarioxylon-arizonicum.jpg

:)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

it once was wood wood ?

:D

[truckjohn]

Where does this fit in?

https://www.fossilera.com/sp/6209/rough/araucarioxylon-arizonicum.jpg

:)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hello, Lee Valley customer service. My new PM-V11 chisels are having some edge retention issues when chopping dovetails... No.. Nothing out of the ordinary about the wood - I use it all the time...

Yes - it may have a high silica content.. Why do you ask... ;).

[FenceFurniture]

Here's a link (https://www.alansfactoryoutlet.com/75-types-of-wood-ranked-by-janka-hardness-and-how-they-are-used) to the chart.

Obviously skewed to the USA market, but that's ok. I wonder how much Gidgee and Spotty they see over there? Spotty may even be growing there, but Gidgee? They've listed "external lumber" as the only use for Spotty, but we all know it has many many more uses than that (and what do they mean by that? Fencing? Cladding?).

No mention of Oregon either. :D

[damian]

Bluegum for fences pallets and construction ??? :o Pallets ???!!!

[FenceFurniture]

Yeah, I bought a 250x50mm stick of Bluegum 4 metres long from Boutique to make some pallets from, but I sanded a bit up and I think I'll make a table instead. :D

[GraemeCook]

Yeah, I bought a 250x50mm stick of Bluegum 4 metres long from Boutique to make some pallets from, but I sanded a bit up and I think I'll make a table instead. :D

Nice, FF

But which blue gum did you buy? Sydney blue gum (E saligna) - not mentioned in the above table - has a hardness yanka of around 9 kN (Bootles), whereas Tasmanian blue gum (E globulus) has a yanka of 12 (Bootles).

However, even with E globulus there are essentially three different "types" of blue gum on the market:

Old growth - Hardness 12 kN - rich dark brown timber,
Regrowth - Hardness 10.5 kN - slightly lighter colour,
Plantation - Hardness around 6.5-7 kN - much lighter colour, often similar to mountain ash.



Cheers

Graeme

[rwbuild]

Don't you mean janka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

[FenceFurniture]

Sydney Bluegum. I have some very nice pics taken in Bluegum Forest (Blue Mountains NP) about 20 years ago, but they are trannies.

[rustynail]

Lignum Vitae.

[GraemeCook]

Lignum Vitae.

Hi Rustynail

Bootles says as follows:

Lignum vitae - Guaiacum officinale - Janka 20 kN
Gidgee - Acasia cambagei - Janka 19 kN


Didn't realise gidgee was so soft, but it sure is prettier, especially as used by Terry Gordon.


Cheers

Graeme

[John Saxton]

We here in the west consider Wandoo a hard timber with a Janks of 15.0 according to this http://www.artistictimberfloors.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Janka-Hardness-Ratings.pdf it shows Bamboo as 14.7 Janka .
I have some Wandoo growing here ,a good chain is required to get through it .

[beserkleyboy]

Hey Fence,
'Oregon', as a species, is short for Oregon Pine. Found this very good info at Wooden Boat forum.
Oregon Pine is Euro (and Brit and Aus) speak for Douglas Fir, Pseudotsuga menziesii.
Prior to its getting parked under its own genus, Pseudotsuga (literally, "false hemlock") back in 1867, it was at various times parked under all of the following genera: Pinus (pines), Picea (spruces), Abies (true firs), Tsuga (true hemlocks), and Sequoia (redwoods).
When I moved here from California in '87 and went to work for Hudson's in Blacktown, I was heartily confused over the Oregon thing, cause I KNEW that most of their 'Oregon' was actually Canadian! Douglas Fir is indeed on that list. Not really very hard at all and with a very unforgiving tendency to splinter. Requires a bit of experience to use in fine woodworking. Old growth, rarely seen, save for recycled, is preferred as most stuff you would get at a timber yard is unseasoned regrowth and very 'bony' in reference to the marked difference in density between early and late wood. Think 20 rings per inch or more for old growth. HEAPS more stable and softer to work. Here's a link to the WIKI page, which is VERY informative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_fir
Hope that helps. Cheers

Jim Pearson
Born and raised on Douglas Fir and California Redwood

[FenceFurniture]

No mention of Oregon either. :D
'Oregon', as a species, is short for Oregon Pine. Found this very good info at Wooden Boat forum.
Oregon Pine is Euro (and Brit and Aus) speak for Douglas Fir, Pseudotsuga menziesii.G'day Jim, yeah I know - I was just being cheeky to see if I could get any bites - so thanks! :D

Actually I didn't know about it being called Oregon Pine (and it's a Fir) but the legend is that some genious called it Oregon because that was what was stamped on it when it arrived here. I've always been amused by the thought of some Aussie going to a lumber yard in the States to purchase some Oregon. "Well hey buddy, just how much money have you got? You want a coupla acres or just a house plot? Not a real friendly climate up there though....."

[beserkleyboy]

Ha ha! 20 years ago a friend of ex wife visited AUS. She (as the ex) was from Portland. The standing joke was, Come visit Oregon in the summer, the nicest week of the year! Or, 'you can tell the locals, they don't use umbrellas or walk fast in the rain...and she told me, after complaining of how difficult it was to understand 'Aussies', that 'People from the Pacific Northwest speak the MOST perfect English in the world)..... go figure...

[truckjohn]

Ha! Most of the native oregonians I have known have an accent that would pass as scandanavian. I always end up with a weird look when I ask them:
"Are you from Norway or Sweden?"
(nasty look) "No.. Oregon.."

anyway - I grew up in a place awash with nearly every dialect of what could sort of pass as "english".... I can generally understand about everybody so long as some portion of it passes for English...

A funny result of that is that I have ended up being the "English to English" translator..... The most humerous example of this was when I took my very-deep-south-country- Eastern USA dialect speaking wife to California... And they literally could not make out a word she said.... She would order something in a resturant and they would look at her like she was speaking Chinese or something... So she would repeat it louder - which made it worse... They would look at me dazed - and I would tell them "She wants a coke"..

But I have had to do this lots with work when we have folks come in from other places... Redneck to Mexican english.. Various flavors of Redneck or south American/Island or New York/New Jersey/Boston english to various flavors of British, Irish, Welsh, Australian, china, india, Africa, etc....

I guess I never realized how hard it was for some people to understand a different dialect of their own mother tongue... But my own parents could barely make out what my Wife's mother was saying about half the time.. But I had no trouble with it until I ran into local idioms that made no sense until explained...

[Bushmiller]

Three (edit: four) Aussie timbers out of the top ten, but nothing in the ten softest timbers. Also I assume this is timbers sold by Alan so hardly comprehensive.

Regards
Paul

[beserkleyboy]

TruckJohn,
Great to see a fellow English speaker that understands! All of the language...I recall a PBS show in about 1985 about the history and development of the English language. Each, of 13 weeks, explored a different English speaking culture. I grew up in the SF Bay Area and thought WE spoke without an accent, until I got out a bit...we used to think the southern drawl was an 'uneducated' accent, sorry...I love it now, fluid and smooth. The other accent that gets up my nose is the American language pedant pho-net-ic one, where e-ver-y syl-a-ble is enunciated...I enjoy listening to most all accents, save for that 'new' Southern California 'Valley Girl' twang that has unfortunately permeated right through the country...and a thick Scottish accent is still difficult to understand. My watered down (after 30 years) neutral Calif accent is sort of Aussie-sized and peppered with local slang. Keep on translating! Cheers, mate.
Jim - 30 yr expat in AUS

[wayfarer]

LOL, accented "english" can be a lot of fun.
1. A Scottish-Australian mate is easy to understand until he gets excited about something, or had a few beers. When he goes home, they can't understand him because of his Australian accent.
2. There was an ABC (Aussie Born Chinese) working in our studio who, naturally, spoke with an Aussie accent. One of the clowns would speak in broken English with her and she'd respond in kind. It was hilarious. Until one Monday she came in a said they had to stop. She was out with friends when they all stopped talking and just started at her. She was speaking in broken English ;-)
3. Two brothers originally from one part of Galway had a totally different Irish accent from another bloke who grew up 20mins from them.


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[beserkleyboy]

Yea, and most yanks think that all British and Aussie accents are the same! Ha! An interesting thing about Aussie accents is that they are not so much regional as they are representative of education and socio/economic upbringing. The 'ocker' accent is a real cracker, skin to the British 'cockney' or 'Essex' accents. And we use rhyming slang as well as a HEAP of local vernacular, dare I say more than any other English speaking culture. Search a book on Aussie speak and 'ave a laugh'...think Hoges in Crocodile Dundee...
30 yr expat in Aus

[Euge]

Russy, As Graeme says, Lignum vitae is called "Guayacann" in the list

What is interesting is that these refer to mostly commercially available woods (in US). Many minor species eg other desert acacias and there are many eg western myall, some gidgees, certain mulgas etc which are not mentioned. Also many Australian woodworkers would know that dryland woods, like western rosewood, wilga, belah / black (she)oak, black cooilbah, Cooktown ironwood and a few eucalypts (eg some ironbarks, wandoo etc) are VERY hard too as some here have mentioned. Although these are rarely commercially available, overseas or here now, I can attest to both their harness and density having worked & cut these occasionally over the years.

In most cases there is a strong association between hardness and wood density ie the higher the density the harder the wood. Interestingly, with BULLOKE the hardest of all, it does not have the highest density. Why is that?


Sheoaks were used as blocks (about 6 x 6” laid on their ends) for roads, much like bluestone cobblestones are eg in Melbourne. There is a Mall in Collins down from Spring street, where they have been retained and polished a a historic display. Hardness results in good wearing and durability for roads and flooring.


Euge




Hi Rustynail

Bootles says as follows:

Lignum vitae - Guaiacum officinale - Janka 20 kN
Gidgee - Acasia cambagei - Janka 19 kN


Didn't realise gidgee was so soft, but it sure is prettier, especially as used by Terry Gordon.


Cheers

Graeme

[dai sensei]

In most cases there is a strong association between hardness and wood density ie the higher the density the harder the wood. Interestingly, with BULLOKE the hardest of all, it does not have the highest density. Why is that? ...

I reckon someone stuffed the test. Yes hard, like most sheoaks, but I don't find it that hard at all compared with the desert acacias. I have some Buloke that doesn't even pass the fingernail test (i.e. I can mark it)

[Euge]

I reckon someone stuffed the test. Yes hard, like most sheoaks, but I don't find it that hard at all compared with the desert acacias. I have some Buloke that doesn't even pass the fingernail test (i.e. I can mark it)

Hmmmm ... maybe, but tests were done by official (reputable) testers / bodies. Usually if one gets surprising results (very high or low) one would be inclined to check equipment, wood samples etc and repeat them to verify. Then the results would likely be average of a number of tests results.

The Buloke from western Vic is exceedingly hard (to saw) and would resist the fingernail test. I can't mark it.

[Euge]

Wood hardness has been explored (covered by comments) by many others over the years I see. Most is subjective unlike data provided in reputable reference sources like KR Bootle (Wood In Australia)

On this database Buloke does not even rate .... Top Ten Hardest Woods | The Wood Database (http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/top-ten-hardest-woods/)

You might find the discussion interesting too :)

[dai sensei]

Hmmmm ... maybe, but tests were done by official (reputable) testers / bodies. Usually if one gets surprising results (very high or low) one would be inclined to check equipment, wood samples etc and repeat them to verify. Then the results would likely be average of a number of tests results.

The Buloke from western Vic is exceedingly hard (to saw) and would resist the fingernail test. I can't mark it.

It's interesting you mention the WA Buloke, I have heard this before, makes me wonder if that species is a different sub-species. I've discussed this in the past with a few people around SEQ who also think our stuff was relatively soft (compared with other QLD desert species).


Wood hardness has been explored (covered by comments) by many others over the years I see. Most is subjective unlike data provided in reputable reference sources like KR Bootle (Wood In Australia)

On this database Buloke does not even rate .... Top Ten Hardest Woods | The Wood Database (http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/top-ten-hardest-woods/)

You might find the discussion interesting too :)

Yes very interesting. I agree with testing should be for numerous specimens, in all directions, with an average then being determined. But then I agree it is hard to get the samples necessary due to the rarity of the trees.

MY opinion for the hardest timbers is based on cutting and turning old fence posts and beams but no doubt impacted by silica content. The hardest I have dealt with was an old opal mine beam of Minirichie. Other IWCS members have advised it is not a very hard timber, relatively speaking, so I have been chasing a tree ever since. My last trip to the opal mines around Winton where it is common was stymied by flooding. Just my luck, no rain for 10 years, then I go during flooding.

[FenceFurniture]

The hardest I have dealt with was an old opal mine beam of Minirichie. Yeah, ya get that when it's been opalised.... :roflmao2:

[dai sensei]

Yeah, ya get that when it's been opalised.... :roflmao2:

Certainly felt that way, sounded similar to my steel anvil when I hit it, mind you over 100 years holding up the mine probably had an affect

[Bushmiller]

Common Name

Latin Name

Source

Density Kg/m3

Janka Hardness kN



Ash Crow's

Flindersia australis

NSW

950

11



Belah

Casuarina cristata

NSW

1150

20



Belian

Eusideroxylon zwageri

Sabah

1000

13



Bloodwood, Brown

E. trachyphloia

NSW

1050

13



Box Grey

E. microcarpa

NSW, VIC

1120

15



Box Grey coast

E. bosistoana

NSW, VIC

1100

13



Box Steel

E. rummeryi

NSW

1130

17



Box White topped

E. quadrangulata

NSW

1030

14



Box Yellow

E. Melliodora

VIC

1100

13



Ebony

Diospyros

Nigeria

1010

14



Gidgee

Acacia cambagei

QLD

1250

19



Greenheart

Ocotea rodiaei

Guyana

970

11



Gum, Blue southern

E. globulus

VIC

900

12



Gum, Grey

E. propinqua/punctata

NSW

1080

14



Gum, Maiden's

E. maidenii

VIC, NSW

950

11



Gum, Red forest

E. tereticornis

QLD, NSW, VIC

1050

12



Gum, Round leafed

E. deanei

NSW

960

12



Gum, Spotted

Corymbia maculata

NSW

950

11



Gum, Yellow

E. leucoxylon

VIC

1010

11



Ironbark, Grey

E. paniculata

NSW

1120

14



Ironbark, Red

E. sideroxylon

NSW, VIC

1130

13



Ironbark. Red broad-leafed

E. fibrosa

NSW

1140

14



Ironbark, Red narrow-leafed

E. crebra

NSW

1090

14



Ironwood, Cooktown

Erythrophleum chlorostachys

NT

1220

13*



Lignum Vitae

Guaiacum

Central America

-

20**



Mahogany, Red

E. resinfera

NSW, QLD

950

12



Mallet, Brown

E. astringens

WA

980

15



Mangrove, Red

Rhizophora mucronata

Papua New Guinea

980

11



Messmate, Gympie

E. cloeziana

QLD

1000

12



Purpleheart

Peltogyne

Guyana

865

11



Rosewood, Indian

Dalbergia

SE Asia

600

12***



Saffronheart


NSW

950

13



Sheoak, Rose

Casuarina torulosa

NSW

920

14



Tuart

E. gomphocephala

WA

1030

11



Turpentine

Syncarpia glomulifera

NSW, QLD

930

12



Wandoo

E. wandoo

WA

1110

15



Wattle, Green

Accacia decurrens

NSW

830

11



Woolybutt

E. longifolia

NSW

1070

11





*Green
**Not clear whether Green or Dry
***Figs.look a little suspect. In the description section density is quoted as 850kg/m3 which is more likely for the hardness.
Hickory (USA), while listed, had no hardness or density data. Modulus of elasticity, modulus of rupture and crushing strength were at the upper end of the scale as may be expected.

All the above data is sourced from Keith Bootle's book "Wood in Australia" and figures quoted are for dry timber except as stated above. May be able to add some Latin names tomorrow (This has now been done). The criteria was that I took anything that was more than 10kN (10000N).Unfortunately quite a number of timbers mentioned in this thread do not feature in the Bootle's book, including most of the Casuarina Oaks.

It should be pointed out that most studies of this nature will concentrate on timbers available in the region where the study is conducted. Timbers that are not commercially available and consequently available in relatively small quantities tend to be excluded from such studies. We can all say "what about such and such timber?" Problem is that the samples for testing have never been available.

Let me know if I have missed anything or mis-quoted. As SWMBO has pointed out at excruciating length, I am not perfect.

Regards
Paul

[Euge]

well done Paul!!
an interesting compilation of density & hardness. :-)

[dai sensei]

*Green
l

Why would you test a green piece??? I was wondering why Ironwood was so soft

[GraemeCook]

Why would you test a green piece??? .......

'Coz he had a green piece ???

[rustynail]

Timber hardness varies greatly from tree to tree. Some timbers are more variable than others. I have had the dubious pleasure of "working" both Lignum vitae and Bulloak. I would rather plane the latter any day.

[Bushmiller]

Why would you test a green piece??? I was wondering why Ironwood was so soft

The short answer is that I don't know. What I haven't mentioned is that the vast majority of species in Bootle"s book were tested both green and dry in most tests including hardness. There was only a hardness value for green timber with Cooktown Ironwood and in fact there was no other dry data except.....there was a figure for the dry density! Possible the data was lost. Who knows?

I agree with rustynail regarding the variability of timber and it is a brave person who categorically states the properties of any timber other than to say there is a tendency for this species to be hard of soft. Quoting exact figures and expecting them to always be the same is fanciful. An example of variability is that IanW has always had bad experience with Spotted Gum. I however really like it, although I conceed it is not without some problems. When Ian saw my Spotted Gum first hand he commented that it was hardly like his at all.

The Bull Oak and Hairy Oak I have found to be surprising easy to plane, but frequent sharpening is required. However there has been no "pick up" for example.

Regards
Paul

[GraemeCook]

.....I agree with rustynail regarding the variability of timber and it is a brave person who categorically states the properties of any timber other than to say there is a tendency for this species to be hard of soft. Quoting exact figures and expecting them to always be the same is fanciful. ........


Good point, Paul.

I'll repeat my posting #8, adding density figures:
"...However, even with E globulus there are essentially three different "types" of blue gum on the market:


Old growth - Hardness 12 kN - rich dark brown timber, Density 0.9,
Regrowth - Hardness 10.5 kN - slightly lighter colour, Density 0.82
Plantation - Hardness around 6.5-7 kN - much lighter colour, often similar to mountain ash, Density around 0.7...."

[Figures are from Bootle and Foerstry Tasmania except for plantation stuff which is a "comparative best guess" - I have been unable to find any actual test results for plantation E globulus.]


The obvious point is that the properties of one species can vary radically depending on where and how it is grown. Few recognise plantation Tasmanian blue gum as the same timber as its old growth relatives.

At least two significant marketers are quoting Bootles with full attribution, but omit to mention that plantation timber is radically different from old growth.

Alternatively one major marketer is blending significant amounts of plantation sourced E globulus into their Tas Oak product mix, and, essentially, nobody has noticed.



Cheers

Graeme

[Varra]

Hi Wafarer
Really interested in the chart, where is a copy that i can download or expand so that it can be read.
New to the forum !!
Many thanks

[GraemeCook]

Hi Varra

I assume that you are refering to the above table laboriously extracted by Bushmiller from Keith Bootles Book, Wood in Australia. It is THE standard reference and if you are interested in Australian timbers you should have a copy; its not expensive.

Also, I doubt that Bushmiller would object to your copying his table.

Also a good reliable online international source is Wood Database.
The Wood Database (http://www.wood-database.com/)

Also reliable, but harder to navigate are the websites of the various state forestry commissions.


Cheers

Graeme

[FenceFurniture]

Really interested in the chart, where is a copy that i can download or expand so that it can be read.
Here's a link (https://www.alansfactoryoutlet.com/75-types-of-wood-ranked-by-janka-hardness-and-how-they-are-used) to the chart.From post #5.

[Bushmiller]

Yes, I think Varra is referring to the table linked by FenceFurniture and the subject of the original post. However, Bootle's book is more relevant for Oz. There is a mountain of information in it and is highly recommended.

Regards
Paul