Skew ChiDAMN!! 11th September 2018, 05:03 PM As the thread title suggests, I'm looking for alternatives to American Oak for a client who wants it in his front door.
In the past we've found out that US Oak really isn't the best choice... and way too prone to splintering while working, besides.
So... any suggestions?
Old Croc 11th September 2018, 08:09 PM Rosegum or Sydney Bluegum both seem stable.
Crocy.
artful bodger 11th September 2018, 08:14 PM As the thread title suggests, I'm looking for alternatives to American Oak for a client who wants it in his front door.
In the past we've found out that US Oak really isn't the best choice... and way too prone to splintering while working, besides.
So... any suggestions?
Maybe you are buying your US oak from the wrong place?. I use heaps of the stuff and can't fault it. They use the stuff to make wine barrels so it has to be a proven timber.
cjbfisher 11th September 2018, 08:46 PM Are you looking for a timber that looks like oak but isn't, or are you looking for any suitable stable and durable timber?
Skew ChiDAMN!! 11th September 2018, 10:30 PM Maybe you are buying your US oak from the wrong place?. I use heaps of the stuff and can't fault it. They use the stuff to make wine barrels so it has to be a proven timber.
In the past we've sourced it from both Matthews Timber and Trend, along with a couple of other places. We've always had trouble with the stuff; admittedly only small scale problems, but irritating nonetheless.
Particularly with bars.
The stuff is used in wine barrels, true. but current trends are moving away from importing the timber and coopering our own to either importing American-made wine barrels or importing French Oak! I'm guessing that the US Oak is best coopered when semi-green.
Are you looking for a timber that looks like oak but isn't, or are you looking for any suitable stable and durable timber?
Something with similar appearance to American oak.
I'm tempted to go for a Casurana, possibly one of the sheoaks. I'm unsure as to their suitability for external exposure though.
ian 12th September 2018, 05:40 AM Does the client want American WHITE oak or American RED oak?
White oak has a good reputation.
Red oak was what Masters used to stock, it has a reputation for being difficult
yvan 12th September 2018, 08:17 AM AB,
Are you sourcing the timber from Britton Bros?
Cheers Yvan
artful bodger 12th September 2018, 08:22 AM AB,
Are you sourcing the timber from Britton Bros?
Cheers Yvan
One of my clients just drops the timber off at my place. So I do not have to worry about sourcing it. As far as I know it gets ordered from someone in Sydney.
IanW 12th September 2018, 08:51 AM Skew, northern Silky oak (Cardwellia) should be a good substitute - it has the 'oak' look, and even the colour can be close depending on the batch. It was used quite extensively for external joinery up this way, and is classed as durable when not in ground contact. Pretty easy to work (slightly softer than the Quercus oaks), & should be available in door-sized dimensions. Not sure of availability, but this mob (https://kirbyfinetimber.com.au/northern-silky-oak/) say they've got it in sizes appropriate for door-making.....
Cheers,
Luke Maddux 12th September 2018, 11:21 AM When I moved back from Australia, probably the strangest thing I brought back was a door made of Northern Silky Oak. It came off of a 1910 era Queenslander in Brisbane and is, to put it lightly, nothing short of awesome.
Like IanW above, I would recommend you look into using Cardwellia. It has a similar look and is an Aus native. Win/Win.
Cheers,
Luke
Luke Maddux 12th September 2018, 11:23 AM Oh, and as far as where to get it I would consider Watt's Wood and Moulding on Brisbane's south side. Every time I ever went in there he had pallets on pallets of the stuff.
Skew ChiDAMN!! 12th September 2018, 12:17 PM Cardwellia!
Thanks fellas, I knew there was something that'd tick all the boxes. :)
Robson Valley 14th September 2018, 07:19 AM Here's your wood anatomy lesson for the genus Quercus (oaks) in North America.
There are 500 - 600 species world wide.
There are about 60 in the USA, maybe 11 in Canada.
The North American oaks can be divided into 2 groups.
One group, the red oaks (Q. rubra and others) are open porous (vessels of Type I elements) and as leaky as a kitchen sieve.
The other group are the white oaks (Q. alba). They have plugged vessels (tyloses) and the wood is waterproof for wine/sherry/rum/whiskey barrels.
Much better ratio of vanillins to tannins in the custom-charred barrels, as well.
So the lesson is to learn to spot the differences so you don't ask for white oak and get stuck with cheap red oak (railway sleepers cheapness).
You people have a fabulous assortment of native woods that you ought to flaunt with the least excuse.
IanW 14th September 2018, 09:30 AM ........You people have a fabulous assortment of native woods that you ought to flaunt with the least excuse......
This is true, but you are often forced by fashion & customer choice to use a particular wood, sometimes despite its not being particularly suitable for purpose. Also, our choice of species suitable for external door-making is not so vast - lots of our woods are durable enough, but would not be much fun to wrestle into door-like shapes!
Distinguishing white from red oaks is probably a doddle for those who live with them, but a bit trickier if you only come across them occasionally. According to this site (https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/magazine/fdmc-magazine/all-oak-same), you can tell by the average lengths of the rays, but since there could be overlap, you need to resort to chemicals if it really matters. Quoting the above site:
"rays are cells that appear as short darker lines running lengthwise on a flatsawn surface. The rays of red oak are seldom over ½-inch long, while the rays of white oak are usually 1-1/2-inches long or longer. Microscopically, when viewed on a cross-section, the cells (called vessels) in red oak are open; in white oak, the vessels are usually (except chestnut white oak and a few other species) plugged. That is why we use white oak, but not red oak, for whiskey barrels!
When separation of red and white oak must be made without error, sodium nitrite (5 percent solution in tap water) can be used. The solution when put on oak lumber, wet or dry, cold or warm, will develop a very dark color in a short time with white oak, but will be light and will not darken with red oak."
Sorting wood by microscopic examination of end-grain is also useful for those who know what they are doing, but not something you could learn in a day or a week. I spent a working lifetime looking at animal tissues down a microscope, and am reasonably familiar with 'scopes, but after looking at micrographs of end-grain & trying to spot the subtle differences that distinguish many genera, I decided it would take me more years than I have left, to become passably competent at that game! :U
Cheers,
Robson Valley 14th September 2018, 01:34 PM Put a dish of water on the floor. Put the end of a 100cm length of oak in the water. Blow air into the other end.
If it is red oak, you will see bubbles in the water from the end of the oak. It's that easy to do. No need to make it more complicated.
I did spend years studying wood anatomy. The precise joining which occurs in grafting living stock and scion parts in fruit trees.
Then I moved and did several years more of that at LaTrobe/Botany with Prof AB Wardrop.
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