Lathe power troubles

[Forrester]

Hi guys! I've finally made time to clean up a variable speed Woodfast lathe I've had sitting for months and am having trouble getting it started.

When I turn the lathe on, the motor fan and spindle seem to be spinning but the lathe spindle and belt does not turn. On the very slowest variable speed I am able to hand spin to start but cranking up the speed makes the lathe stop turning.

Turning power on makes a loud 'bzzzzzzzzzz' sound coming from the white box.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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[BobL]

Sounds like a capacitor problem.

[poundy]

you need a white paint / liquid paper drop on the motor drive pulley so you can be sure the motor is running. But yeah, capacitor is likely your first problem.
(I had a guy at Taren Point repair a motor for my coffee roaster a few weeks ago - should be able to find someone out west closer to you to do the same)

[Paul39]

Forrester,

If your motor starts and runs by itself I think your starting capacitor is OK. If it hums but does not start, but runs when you give the belt a pull, it needs a start capacitor. Do not let it hum without starting for more than a few seconds or the Magic Smoke will come out. Some motors have both a start and run capacitor, but those usually have two bumps on the top of the motor.

I think you have two separate things happening. Remove the cover from the white box and blow out or brush any sawdust and chips you see. If the switch contacts are visible, see if there is dirt, or burned places on them. If not clean and shiny, fold a piece of 400 grit sandpaper and run between the contacts until they are clean and shiny.

That may be a mechanical switch or a magnetic switch. If magnetic, when the on button is pressed it causes a coil to pull in a set of contacts that let electricity flow to the motor. It also supplies electricity to the coil to keep it pulling the motor contacts together. If the power should go off in the shed the motor contacts open and will not start the motor when the power comes on without pushing the on button. If there is dirt keeping the coil from firmly pulling in the contacts they could chatter, that may be the buzzing you hear. After you have done what you can, put the cover back on.

Your variable speed drive is what is called a Reeves Drive. When working well they are wonderful. If not maintained they will drive one to bitter cursing and weeping.

They work by mechanically moving the two halves of one pulley together and apart. In your case the top one. The other pulley is spring loaded to move together and apart to follow the tension of the belt connecting the two.

Your description sounds as though the motor pulley is not closing up on the belt when the top pulley is moved apart, which loosens the belt and you have no drive.

The belt adjustment could also be too loose. You might start with tightening the belt to see if you get it to work on the higher speeds. If that does not work and / or you want to give the drive a tune up, do the following.

Unplug the lathe and hang the cord over the lathe with the plug in sight. Loosen the belt adjustment and remove the belt, inspect and if the running surface is shiny, glazed, sand both sides with 100ish grit until there is no shine. With the belt off it does not hurt the adjusting mechanism to be operated without the motor running. Run the upper pulley adjustment all the way back and forth several times, pay attention to any catching or stiffness. When the pulley halves are farthest apart, turn the spindle with a faceplate or chuck and with the 100ish grit sandpaper clean the running surfaces of the pulley. Clean the shaft between the pulley halves and put a light coat of grease - white grease, petroleum jelly, etc. - on it. Adjust the pulley halves together and clean and grease the exposed sliding part. Clean, oil or grease any of the adjusting mechanism you can get to. Adjust the pulley all the way open and closed about 10 times and wipe off any grease that wants to get on the inside of the pulley.

Check the inner sides of the motor pulley. If not clean sand with 100ish grit until clean. If you feel comfortable doing so wrap and tape the sandpaper to a narrow stick, a paint stirring stick is about right, turn the motor on momentarily and watch which way the pulley is turning. Start the motor and sand both sides of the pulley with the rotation of the pulley pulling the stick away from you. Shut down and unplug with plug in your sight.

Stick a piece of wood between the sides of the motor pulley and GENTLY pry them apart. The sides may be aluminum or pot metal and could break. If proven steel or cast iron we do not have to be so gentle. Do they move without catching? Clean and grease the outside shaft, pry apart and clean and grease between the pulleys. Pry apart as much as you can and let come back 10ish times, turning the pulley 1/2 turn each time. Clean off any grease that has come on the inside of the pulley.

Wind the top pulley sides together, put the belt on and tighten belt tension, giving the belt some rotation each tweak until you see the bottom pulley just begin to spread.

Plug in and start the lathe, run the adjustment all the way back and forth a few times. If it works the full range you are good for several years.

If not, check back here for more advice.

[poundy]

but, don't open ANYTHING with the power connected. And don't open the switches unless you're an electrician or appropriately trained - in which case the previous warning was unnecessary....

This should be the first thing you do:

>> Unplug the lathe and hang the cord over the lathe with the plug in sight.

[warrick]

Turning power on makes a loud 'bzzzzzzzzzz' sound coming from the white box.



This statement makes me say "Get an Electrician to have a look"

Rick

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

When I turn the lathe on, the motor fan and spindle seem to be spinning but the lathe spindle and belt does not turn. On the very slowest variable speed I am able to hand spin to start but cranking up the speed makes the lathe stop turning.

Just what do you mean by this? If the motor shaft is turning, so should the drive pulley... are you saying that the shaft is spinning inside the pulley? A broken key or loose grub-screw would be the first thing to look for if that's the case.

Or do you mean that the motor pulley spinning, but the belt is slipping?


Turning power on makes a loud 'bzzzzzzzzzz' sound coming from the white box.

This would be my main concern. Personally, I'd unplug the lathe and keep it unplugged until this was resolved. (If I couldn't fix it ASAP I'd also physically remove the plug and/or lead so no-one else could try using it in my absence!)

Cleaning the switch-box may resolve the issue, as may cleaning the contacts. If you have any doubt about your abilities to service this though, call someone who does know what they're doing. ;)

[NCArcher]

The white box is just a Direct Online starter. The buzz sounds like the contactor may need attention or replacing. I can have a look at it for you if you would like.
Send me a PM.

[Forrester]

Thank you everyone for such a vast amount of information in just a day!

Reading all of this makes me think it's a weekend job to have a proper look - this long weekend is now very convenient!

Initially this seems like a few issues. Firstly the belt is loose and becomes more loose with the speed turned up it seems. Secondly, the buzz from the direct online starter seems I should open and clean up the contacts. I'm glad everyone does exactly as I've been told which is to hang the cord unplugged and in sight.

I'll have a general clean and keep you all posted!

[Forrester]

Hi everyone again!

I just did a clean up of the lathe - I DON'T think there are any electrical problems. Unless a small hum sound is abnormal?

Regarding the belt. I took them off, gave the pulleys a clean etc. Gave the mechanism a bit of a clean, ran it up and down etc etc. The mechanism is running fine, not 100% smooth but not something that would stop it working.

When I put the belts back on, they are both super slack, but I didn't change the motor mounting height etc (it already seems to be on the lowest mount position?). Am I tripping out here, how do I achieve tighter belts or are these simply too long? I noticed in cleaning that they were indeed too slack and most likely the culprit, but now they are ridiculously slack.

Both belts by the way are different lengths.

I've attached some images of my progress.

Thank you to all!

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[Lappa]

I know nothing about these lathes or Reeves drives but that belt looks like a toothed belt with a thin profile/ thickness with no V shape which I don’t think suits the pulleys - from the one I can see on the motor. Maybe it’s just the photo/angle.
Can you get a better pic. of the belt itself?

[Paul39]

Forrester,

What you have is something I have not encountered. I am used to two pulley Reeves drive for which I gave instructions in my post #4.
Here is how a two pulley system works: https://youtu.be/M8ExzaUq5GI

Here is a Rockwell three pulley system, which may or may not be the same as the Woodfast: https://youtu.be/sE77YHDEZaQ

From what I can see, you have a three pulley system with the middle pulley changing ratio in relation to motor to middle and middle to spindle at the same time by moving the center section of the middle pulley side to side.

Here is a Rockwell three pulley system, which may or may not be the same as the Woodfast: https://youtu.be/sE77YHDEZaQ

As you have removed the belts, and I am assuming you have not removed the pulleys, I would remove and replace the belts opposite to what you have. There appears to be a coil spring on the middle pulley, so you may have to put a belt on middle to top first which may be loose then belt on the middle to motor pulley pulling against the spring to put on the motor pulley. I can't tell if the motor pulley is a Reeves or fixed.

It is quite possible that your belt or belts are worn enough to be past the limit of adjustment. That may be why the lathe was sold. The belts seem to be the correct ones. http://www.master-pt.com/images/pdf/PULLEY_MPT.pdf

Also see: http://www.alltorquetransmissions.com/tag/reeves/

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=how+does+a+three+pulley+reeves+drive+system+work&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The above is about as much as I can do for you from here. When you get it working I think you will be most pleased. My 20 odd year old Woodfast below, bought with everything rusted together and stuck. A weekend to get everything apart, then much cleaning and polishing. Wonderful lathe, 20 inch swing, short bed bowl lathe.

[Forrester]

I know nothing about these lathes or Reeves drives but that belt looks like a toothed belt with a thin profile/ thickness with no V shape which I don’t think suits the pulleys - from the one I can see on the motor. Maybe it’s just the photo/angle.
Can you get a better pic. of the belt itself?

Hey Lappa, I believe the belts are what is needed for this one, see the better photo below! Thank you for your reply!

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[Forrester]

Forrester,

What you have is something I have not encountered. I am used to two pulley Reeves drive for which I gave instructions in my post #4.
Here is how a two pulley system works: https://youtu.be/M8ExzaUq5GI

Here is a Rockwell three pulley system, which may or may not be the same as the Woodfast: https://youtu.be/sE77YHDEZaQ

From what I can see, you have a three pulley system with the middle pulley changing ratio in relation to motor to middle and middle to spindle at the same time by moving the center section of the middle pulley side to side.

Here is a Rockwell three pulley system, which may or may not be the same as the Woodfast: https://youtu.be/sE77YHDEZaQ

As you have removed the belts, and I am assuming you have not removed the pulleys, I would remove and replace the belts opposite to what you have. There appears to be a coil spring on the middle pulley, so you may have to put a belt on middle to top first which may be loose then belt on the middle to motor pulley pulling against the spring to put on the motor pulley. I can't tell if the motor pulley is a Reeves or fixed.

It is quite possible that your belt or belts are worn enough to be past the limit of adjustment. That may be why the lathe was sold. The belts seem to be the correct ones. http://www.master-pt.com/images/pdf/PULLEY_MPT.pdf

Also see: All Torque Transmissions reeves Archives - All Torque Transmissions (http://www.alltorquetransmissions.com/tag/reeves/)

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=how+does+a+three+pulley+reeves+drive+system+work&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The above is about as much as I can do for you from here. When you get it working I think you will be most pleased. My 20 odd year old Woodfast below, bought with everything rusted together and stuck. A weekend to get everything apart, then much cleaning and polishing. Wonderful lathe, 20 inch swing, short bed bowl lathe.


Thank you once again for a wonderfully thought out reply full of knowledge! It still amazes me how much information and help can be gathered on this forum!

It is indeed a 3 spindle Reeves. The middle spindle raises and lowers while the motor and shaft spindle remain fixed.

This morning I did what you suggested and swapped the belts around. Go figure, the lathe is spinning! Now, I feel a little silly BUT when I bought this lathe, the belt configuration was exactly how I originally had it ie in the not working configuration. The guy I bought it from was moving house and couldn't take it, but he said it was working just the week beforehand. Now, I may have been duped but it's still a nice lathe and came with lots of extras.

I will follow this reply up with another post with videos etc!

[Forrester]

So after looking over this lathe all yesterday and this morning, it seems to be running (not perfectly though). Next up will probably be to clean everything properly and do whatever others suggest here ie replace bearings or grease etc. What do we suggest as a safe product for cleaning up the spindles, bearings, greasing etc? Right now they've simply been wiped with elbow grease and a cloth. I'll have to buy some products, at the moment at home I only have CMT 2050 and Wd40, plus some 80W-90 gear oil.

Without explaining too much, see this video of how it is now running. In the lower range it seems to be making some sounds in the spindle/belt area until it gets up to speed. It also gets harder to turn in the lower speeds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKj_XvuXTE

Lastly, what is this bolt in operable section? When I loosen it, it lets me wiggle the mechanism VERY slightly up and down maybe 5mm, when tightened it holds the mechanism sturdy.

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And a couple more images:

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[Lappa]

[QUOTE=Forrester;2109001]Hey Lappa, I believe the belts are what is needed for this one, see the better photo below! Thank you for your reply!

/QUOTE]

Thanks for the pics. I can see the V shape now so the right belts.

[Paul39]

Forrester,

I see rust here & there. On the bed or any flat surface get a single edge razor blade scraper and scrape the rust, at the right angle of blade it will come right off. Then oil up and run the tail stock back and forth a few times and wipe, re oil, run back and forth and wipe. If the bottom of the banjo - part that holds the tool rest - is rusty, scrape with razor or put some 120 grit paper on a flat surface and run the banjo over that.

I see the drive center is rusty and in the spindle, soak all of that with WD-40 and let sit overnight. If there is a hole through the spindle squirt WD in the outboard side until it runs out, let sit overnight. Next day if there is a hole through the spindle, put a couple of rags over the drive center and stick a knock out bar - 3/8 inch rod - through the hole and hit it as hard as you can with a 12 - 16 oz hammer. You want a sharp shock as opposed to a heavy blow, if no go, try once more, then stop. If there is no hole through the spindle for a knock out bar, or if it has not come out with the knock out bar, more WD on where the drive center goes in and tap, tap, tap, on the fat part of the drive center with the above mentioned rod while turning the spindle around and around, keep adding WD. As the drive center is tapered the WD and side tapping may let it eventually ease out. Heating the threaded nose of the spindle and behind with a hair dryer or heat gun, keeping the heat off the drive center will help to swell the spindle and let WD in and release the grip on the drive center.

There is an auto tool called a pickle fork that could be used to go behind the fat part of the drive center to knock it out: https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/1fadb2d8-079d-47b5-be54-ce45d7b45b91/svn/gearwrench-car-air-filters-2287d-64_1000.jpg Be careful to not damage the threads on the spindle and especially not the register area behind the spindle.

When you get the drive center out, oil up the spindle nose and run a chuck or face plate up snugly to the stop and back off 3 - 4 times, then wipe all rusty oil off inside and outside threads and flat register at the back of the threads. Look carefully at the register on the spindle for any nicks or raised places. The threads hold the face plate or chuck on. the register makes it run true and gets in the same position each time it is put on. Run the lathe at 1000ish RPM, wrap a piece of 180 - 240 grit around a flat stick and apply to the register area of the spindle behind the threads, just enough to shine it. Wipe off and lightly oil register and threads. With above grade of sandpaper and a flat block of wood rotate around on the back register area of your face plate and chuck, wipe and lightly oil.

All of the above works on the tail center in the tail stock.

Bearings, leave them alone unless they are making crunching grinding noises. For the spindle bearings get a 12 inch or so screwdriver, run the lathe at 1000ish RPM and put the tip of the screwdriver close to the spindle on each side of the housing and put the end of the handle in your ear. A smooth whurring sound is good, crunching, grinding sounds are not. When you had the belts off, if the spindle turned easily and smoothly all is good.

I see at least one grease fitting, if you have a grease gun, or a mate with one holding auto chassis or wheel bearing grease, pump until you see clean grease come out, wipe off, and you are good for a year or three. As to the speed adjustment working hard at the low end, lubricate with oil, not WD any place in the system that moves against another part. If there is a long screw in there, spray with WD, wipe, then lube. 20 weight auto oil, 3 in 1 oil.

[Paul39]

An omission from post # 17:

When the drive center and tail center are removed from the Morse tapers. Thoroughly wet the inside and outside tapers with WD-40 and put loosely back in and rotate so as to loosen up any rust or dirt, gently pushing in and twisting. Remove male part and wipe off and out with rag moistened with WD, wet down tapers again and twist around, wipe out, repeat until wiping rag comes out clean. Oil up in and out and rub around, remove, wipe off excess oil and replace.

If drive and tail centers are the same taper, use the drive center in the tail stock if you can't grip the tail center to rotate. If there is rust on the male taper of the tail center that you can't get off by rotating in the tail stock, that can be removed by suspending or propping in white vinegar overnight or several days. Do not submerge the tail center bearing. After brushing off the now black crud with an old toothbrush swish around the taper in very hot water, dry and immediately oil. If not oiled the taper will flash rust quickly.

Rust on the fat part of the drive center can be removed by putting in the spindle and running the lathe slowly and using a strip of 150 - 220 grit polishing the fat part, then lightly oiling. Be careful of the drive spurs. The whole drive center can also be soaked in white vinegar and scrubbed with a brush, put in hot water, dried and oiled after removal from head stock and before the grinding of the internal Morse taper.

Keep in mind that WD-40 is not an oil and will not protect from rust or lubricate.

Any of your Morse taper bits that are rusty - tail center drill chuck - can be shined up by running in the lathe and sandpapered, then oiled.

[Forrester]

An omission from post # 17:

When the drive center and tail center are removed from the Morse tapers. Thoroughly wet the inside and outside tapers with WD-40 and put loosely back in and rotate so as to loosen up any rust or dirt, gently pushing in and twisting. Remove male part and wipe off and out with rag moistened with WD, wet down tapers again and twist around, wipe out, repeat until wiping rag comes out clean. Oil up in and out and rub around, remove, wipe off excess oil and replace.

If drive and tail centers are the same taper, use the drive center in the tail stock if you can't grip the tail center to rotate. If there is rust on the male taper of the tail center that you can't get off by rotating in the tail stock, that can be removed by suspending or propping in white vinegar overnight or several days. Do not submerge the tail center bearing. After brushing off the now black crud with an old toothbrush swish around the taper in very hot water, dry and immediately oil. If not oiled the taper will flash rust quickly.

Rust on the fat part of the drive center can be removed by putting in the spindle and running the lathe slowly and using a strip of 150 - 220 grit polishing the fat part, then lightly oiling. Be careful of the drive spurs. The whole drive center can also be soaked in white vinegar and scrubbed with a brush, put in hot water, dried and oiled after removal from head stock and before the grinding of the internal Morse taper.

Keep in mind that WD-40 is not an oil and will not protect from rust or lubricate.

Any of your Morse taper bits that are rusty - tail center drill chuck - can be shined up by running in the lathe and sandpapered, then oiled.

Wonderful response and gives me plenty of information to work with to getting this lathe back into top condition!

It's great that the nature of the lathe itself lends well to self cleaning with some sandpaper. Wd 40 will be used primarily as suggested. On the lathe ways after cleaning I'll be using something I have a small tub of called Silverglide that I have used on my bandsaw table with good success.

In terms of lubricating oils of each part: the raising/lowering mechanism, the morse taper bits, the spindles etc I'll be looking to get some 20 weight oil as suggested (Iso 68?).

[Paul39]

Wonderful response and gives me plenty of information to work with to getting this lathe back into top condition!

I lean toward "put in working order" and use. "Perfect is the enemy of finished." Nothing wrong with restoration, or top condition, if that is your interest.

For lathe purposes about anything slick that will stay between rubbing parts will work. Straight 20 or 30 weight auto oil works fine. If there are oil cups on your lathe motor, non detergent 20 weight is advised. Most motors have ball bearings that are grease lubed for "life". Whose life is hard to determine.

I have bought quite a few well used machines and motors with ball bearings and never lubed nor had a failure over many years of additional use. A 1930s table saw I dragged out of a building that was being demolished in the 1970s, and kept outside with canvas over it, used for cutting up firewood, finally let the magic smoke come out two years ago. Bearings still worked fine.

I had to look up ISO 68: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29715/hydraulic-engine-oils

[bhilbert]

Dear Forrester
I have a Woodfast lathe that looks very much like yours. My lathe was slipping when I tried to turn a bowl. Are you able to tell me what sort and size belts you have?
thankyou
Bryan

[bhilbert]

Dear Paul

I also have just purchased an old Woodfast lathe. I am also having trouble with what I think is the belt slipping as I try to tune a bowl. When I apply pressure with the turning "chisels" to the wood I can almost stop the spindle and I get a squealing sound. The number on the tail stock is VSL 686-73.
The belts on the machine when i bought it have "teeth" and the two bests are slightly different dimensions.The smaller belt which goes from the motor to the speed controller is 1030mm ID and 1040 OD is 25mm wide and 10mm deep. The longer best which runs from the speed controller to the spindle is1090 ID and 1100 OD is 28wide and 10mm deep.
Are you able to help me as to where to get new belts?
Thank you
Bryan

[Forrester]

Hi Bryan, can't help you too much with where to find the belts. However, these being a well used school machine in the past means if you call up a few schools you might be able to get the contact of someone who services their lathes. Plenty of schools still have these running so hopefully you can get some info by trying to speak with a school service.