Tablesaw Manufacturers

[Ando967]

Hi all,

Ive been doing some research into cabinet saws lately as I'm struggling to justify the cost of a Sawstop at $4399. Can anyone shed some light on why major US manufacturers dont export their products to Australia? So far I can see a number of major brands, Grizzly G0690, Delta Unisaw, General International and now to a certain extent Powermatic are difficult to source in Australia. Brand I can find are Harvey and Laguna, which look nearly identical for the premium models and still quite expensive, I think if I was to spend $3500 I'd save up for a bit longer and get a Sawstop simply for the safety feature for the extra $1000.

I've also noticed that Carbatec have an entry level cabinet saw now but am a little dubious that the quality will stack up when compared to the other brands of cabinet saw?

Which way have people gone when purchasing a professional grade saw? Ideally I'd like to spend between 2500 and 3000, but from what I'm seeing there isn't much in this price range.

[clear out]

The US don’t make tablesaws they import them.
The local importers/sellers can make more by importing directly from the East.
There may be a price point that European made (Poland)? or similar works for local resellers.
I’ve recently used a Hammer at the local men’s shed and was impressed.
This saw was set up and looked after by a German master cabinetmaker so it may not be typical.
I personally have old Wadkin Bursgreen stuff but whilst cheap to buy these usually need a lot of tuning up.
H.

[cava]

There may be a price point that European made (Poland)? or similar works for local resellers.

Never heard of saws out of Poland, but I am interested.

Do you have any further information on this?

[Ando967]

You're very much correct about the importing from China. It seems that no one can compete with them in their manufacturing endeavours. Surely these companies can see the value in selling their goods in other countries, even if badged under another name, to fill obvious gaps and undersupply in the market? Or am I just the odd one out thinking there is a gap in the market?

[poundy]

You're very much correct about the importing from China. It seems that no one can compete with them in their manufacturing endeavours. Surely these companies can see the value in selling their goods in other countries, even if badged under another name, to fill obvious gaps and undersupply in the market? Or am I just the odd one out thinking there is a gap in the market?
I'm not sure I understand. What gaps in the markets do you perceive? Most of these come out of the same small number of factories, and come in livery of the brand in question. Why would an unknown US brand want to try to penetrate a small market like AU when the same equipment comes from an established brand? Why would they set up distribution and repair, to try to steal someone's established market share? There would be no economics in that.

[Just George]

Poundy is on the money.


What don't you like about SawStop? They are extremely well made and have awesome backup. It is over engineered really, but this is to the benefit of the user. Then there's the break mechanism, to assist in saving you from that life changing event.....


Enough said....

[homey]

+1 for the Sawstop. Extremely well built, solid as a rock and, speaking as someone who has used the Pro version most days over the past 2+ years, I would buy one again in a heartbeat.

Brian

[aldav]

I would have thought that there are cabinet saws available locally in your $2500 to $3500 range. If you have a look on https://www.machines4u.com.au/browse/Woodworking-Machinery/Rip-Table-Saws-71/ there seems to be plenty to choose from. If you don't mind going used there's generally things like this available - https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/NEAR-NEW-1-6-M-SLIDING-TABLE-PANEL/463803/ and you might even pick up a European saw if you keep your eye out for a while. As stated by others all these saws are made in China or Taiwan, there are no manufacturers of cabinet saws in the US as far as I'm aware. If you want to go European you have to be prepared to part with more dollars.

[Ando967]

I have no problems with Sawstop at all, other than the price, which is justified by engineering and the safety features. It just seems to me that a there should be plenty of options for a high quality cabinet saw at a lower price point. What was the go to cabinet saw prior to sawstop's arrival? Powermatic?

[Just George]

Carbatec now have an option, I am unsure about other suppliers really. Before the SawStop was the Powermatic and JET, and before that was their TSC-10HB, a 3HP machine triple drive belt etc. The below machines have a 2.5HP motor so is not limited to use with 15amp power points.

https://www.carbatec.com.au/search?ProductSearch=TS-C250P-*

There is a router table top that fits these tables, a variety of extras that can be seen in their new catalogue coming out soon.

[John.G]

My advice is to forget buying new cheap crap thats designed for woodworkers and go buy second hand pro gear. Theres plenty out there... you just got to look.

You're in Tas, just go look at this one:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/stowport/power-tools/panel-saw-2800mm-sliding-table-woodworking-cabinet-making/1196822793

and unless theres something wrong with it take it home. Unless you got three phase in which case the world is your oyster and you can get a whole cabinetmakers shop of gear for less $ then that in Canberra. I spent 5 minutes on gumtree... if i was seriouly looking id be checking out what thatcher and ron mack and ATS are carrying 2nd hand.

I tell ya something: theres no-one with a vintage wadkin or white or barker etc or a not quite vintage Altendorf or SCM ever wishes they had a sawstop. Just sayin...

[elanjacobs]

I tell ya something: theres no-one with a ... not quite vintage Altendorf or SCM ever wishes they had a sawstop. Just sayin...
An Altendorf or SCM is between 5 and 20 times the price of a Sawstop (even used machines are at least double) and has a full sliding table. You might as well say "there's no Ferrari owner who wishes they had a Honda". Just sayin...

The industrial stuff out of Taiwan is genuinely good; you might want to invest in a better fence, but the machines themselves are solidly built.

[Jrm02]

Hi from Canada. I looked at the saw stop. Nice machines but the price was too high. The General saws are no longer made in Canada. It’s General International now made somewhere in the east. I ended up with a Canadian made 70’s vintage Rockwell Unisaw for $550. After $~200 in parts and a few days to rebuild and tune up it is an excellent machine.


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[DaveVman]

The reasons things cost more in Aus is all the fees, taxes, the higher wages, lack of economy of scale, high cost of doing business, etc.
My wife convinced me to spend the extra for the Sawstop because she likes l
my fingers as they are. Of course I haven't needed the brake and hopefully never will. However it is a great saw and a great fence.

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[barri]

BTW one of the Harvey models (there could be more) is identical to one of the Grizzly's except for colour and branding. Even on another thread someone said if you want a better manual for your Harvey saw then download it from Grizzly's web site. So I don't really see a gap in the market at all. Harvey (Grizzly), Sawstop, Laguna, Sherwood, Powermatic, Jet, Scheppach, Hafco, Carbatec just to name a few and I'm sure some of these come out from the same factory
I also have a Sawstop and love it.

[Ando967]

Thanks Barri

I was only recently made aware of the Grizzly - Harvey connection, I think its a good option for me. I also thought that the Laguna Dovetail is very similar to the Harvey Industrial. I see the brands you mention broken down into three categories:
Premium : Sawstop, Powermatic (Not sure where to get one in Aus?)
Mid Range: Jet (Limited Range, No 30inch table?), Harvey, Laguna (Don't like the hybrid concept and the dovetail saw is in Sawstop's price range), Carbatec.
Budget: Hafco, Scheppach, Sherwood (lacks the refinement of the ones above)

My comment about the gap related to the absence of saws like Delta Unisaw, General International Cabinet Saws. Saws that were designed for professional use, built and engineered for accurate, repeatable, heavy duty cycle and long life. These saw were workhorses in cabinet shops prior to the age of panel products which suit the sliding tablesaws.

[barri]

I owned a Laguna fusion and upgraded to a Sawstop for safety reasons.

I think given with what you said Harvey is the best choice and best value and if possible get the 5/8 bore as it allows a bigger choice of saw blades. BTW Grizzly is a well respected brand in USA

[dohboy]

Putting aside the obvious bonus of the safety system on the SawStop, you cannot fault the build quality on them...there is just nothing else that comes close. They look identical on the outside, but under the covers, they are better designed, better made, and with well thought out features. And with a basic cast iron unit coming in at just over $2500... are they really that much out of the ball park?....really? What the price of a finger on the black market these days?

[barri]

Putting aside the obvious bonus of the safety system on the SawStop, you cannot fault the build quality on them...there is just nothing else that comes close. They look identical on the outside, but under the covers, they are better designed, better made, and with well thought out features. And with a basic cast iron unit coming in at just over $2500... are they really that much out of the ball park?....really? What the price of a finger on the black market these days?

+1

Also the fence is rock solid and perfectly parallel straight out of the box and getting the blade parallel to the slots is done through micro adjusting not banging with a mallet. I got it to under 0.001" in under 30 minutes and most of that time is loosening the bolts. Nice touches like providing a home for the miter gauge just adds to the quality. When I bought the Laguna fusion I was tossing up between it and the sawstop and the price difference was too high and I ended up regretting buying the Laguna however it was a great saw but absolutely no regrets trading up to a sawstop

Anyway if your budget is very tight then the Harvey is a great machine. A couple of videos to help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2wuHGvG2GY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8z1eBtBvg

[socratous]

Just in case Australia didn't have the most stringent electrical regulations in the world already, they are about to get more in depth next year. Powermatic's table saw has been pulled off the market for months now, there mightbe e a few in warehouses around the place but no more are coming down under.

I think you'll see a lot of current products go the way of the dodo next year, it simply isn't viable for manufacturers to keep up with the ever changing regs here and throwing money at re jigging products to suit and continual certification testing.

[cava]

Just in case Australia didn't have the most stringent electrical regulations in the world already, they are about to get more in depth next year.
Any information on the proposed changes?

[socratous]

Effective end of May next year, every vac/extractor on the market that has the ability to plug a tool into will require an on board circuit breaker. As most vacs hover around the 1200W mark, that leaves 1200W headroom before you hit 10A. Basically you won't be running big grinders or drop saws through the vac for auto on convenience. I'm not yet sure of what this will bring about for on site compliance, but will not be legal to sell a vac without the breaker after the implementation.

There is a lot of stuff changing regarding portable 'static' tools, router tables, portable table saws etc etc. Compliance on switching mechanisms to be more in depth, wheels mandatory for items over a certain weight, that kind of stuff.

I can't name specific models for confidentiality reasons, but can say I know of at least 13 popular tools from.various manufacturers that won't be available in Oz once current stock holdings sell through.

[socratous]

After my little tangent venture, I'll get back to the OPs question. The other brands don't/won't bring stuff here as it is simply too expensive for the few extra sales they'd get. Electrical compliance on a tool is a minimum $12k, plus the cost of the item as it will be destroyed during the testing. That only lasts for 3 years, even if the tool hasn't been updated it still needs to be re tested. Similar cost and time frames for mechanical safety of use testing.

The Powermatic table saws sales were averaging less than 50 a year from what I've heard. Look at best case scenario of $24k for testing and compliance every 3 years plus the costs of two saws for those sales figures, I'm suprised it was on the market for as long as it was.

This is something else that needs to be kept in mind when complaining about the 'Australia Tax', it isn't just GST and higher wages here, but all the back of house stuff that needs to be paid for just to legally sell something here, or why not all tools from a range or manufacturer make it here.

[cava]

I have been in the industry long enough to know that a testing estimate of circa $24,000 is excessive and the importer/distributor should look for an alternate.

Typically the timeframe of a certificate is 5 years and generally (though not all the time) full testing is not required for a renewal.

[Ando967]

Wowsers, that's pretty interesting information! I'm a chippy by day, so I'm sure I have quite a few of these tools you're talking about, would love to know how these changes will knock onto other products. Especially with vacs/extractors as I have noticed that America has recently undergone some OHS changes regarding Silica exposure pumping up the requirement to have vacs attached to drills/grinders/saws, so this will naturally become a standard in Australia soon. I Often run 2x vac onsite hooked up to dropsaws, grinders, sanders, etc. so I'll be pis#$d if they get anymore expensive to replace!!

Any ideas on when this info will be published for jo blow public to digest?

Might be getting that tablesaw this year instead of next....

[socratous]

Without trying to go too off topic... next year worksafe will standardise extraction requirements across the country as currently each state is to their own. M class is looking to be the minimum standard for concrete work. Bags/liners will have to be used, no more up ending the drum and copping a face full of dust on site.

[DaveVman]

In Australia we are far too over regulated. People don't seem to realise how significant the cost is and the fact that cost is passed on to the Aussie consumer.

I tend to support the electrical regulations but even these have got out of hand.

For example, I used to have my registration but it wasn't worth paying the renewal because I don't need it for work any more. Now I need to replace a ceiling fan with a new one that draws less current. Yet I have to pay an electrician to do this. Money for nothing.

The electrical regulations tend to be made after someone dies or a house burns down so these ones are not too bad. However we have all sorts of other regulations which are excessive.

For example non invasive beauty treatment equipment must be tested and certified which makes it 10+ times more expensive than otherwise and 10 times less choice. This achieves no real useful purpose that I can see.

People complain about the Australia tax but when one points out the over regulation, excess levies and high costs of business in Australia one finds that Aussies can't be bothered to object to it.

All too often I see that Aussies think a problem can and should be solved by laws and regulations. It's not the way to solve most problems due to unintended consequences and due to the cost it places on everyone. We need a different attitude to all these regulations.

Sorry about the rant.

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[socratous]

Yet in America one can completely wire up their own house with no qualms, but children with Kinder Suprise toys are a safety risk!

[Lappa]

Agree to over regulation BUT on the other hand, a person can do a 3-5 day course and then inject Botox and wield lasers on a persons body - that’s under regulation on a grand scale.

[clear out]

Here we are in 2018 and the latest round of silicosis has arrived.
Workers polishing concrete, dry and no extraction.
Last time I remember was in Sydney during excavation of sandstone for hi rise.
When I was an apprentice the storeman was a Moulder with silicosis from the parting sand used in the foundry.
Rember the Romans with the blue death their slaves who mined Aspestos died from.
That wouldn’t happen in our society would it?
H.