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View Full Version : anyone trying the 40/40 grind ???



smiife
25th November 2018, 04:45 PM
Hi guys , spent a fair bit of time grinding one of my bowl gouges
today into a 40/40 grind , watched a few of Stuart Batty, s video, s
He reckons it, s the only way to go !
Took a long time to get the grind right doing it freehand ,
I normally use a jig on my pro edge ,
Tried it out on a practice piece of scrap and got a really nice
finish straight off the tool:o .....
Just wondered if any others have been tempted or already use it .....

Woodturnerjosh
25th November 2018, 05:17 PM
I started using Batty's methods a while back and it's basically all I use for dry timber, but for roughing out green timber I still prefer a more swept back grind and a pull cut (it's fast and fun!)
I find it an easy grind to do free hand (if you don't have a handle attached to the tool) and with a bit of practice you can touch up the edge quickly.
The finish straight off the tool is brilliant and speeds up the production work that I do, but I see people using other methods achieve fantastic results too. It's a grind that works for me and I think it's worth trying.
:2tsup::2tsup:

smiife
25th November 2018, 06:57 PM
i started using Batty's methods a while back and it's basically all I use for dry timber, but for roughing out green timber I still prefer a more swept back grind and a pull cut (it's fast and fun!)
I find it an easy grind to do free hand (if you don't have a handle attached to the tool) and with a bit of practice you can touch up the edge quickly.
The finish straight off the tool is brilliant and speeds up the production work that I do, but I see people using other methods achieve fantastic results too. It's a grind that works for me and I think it's worth trying.
:2tsup::2tsup:

Yeah , I agree , the pull cut works for me too! and fun
Just got to get my head around the push cut with this gouge
My handle does get In the way a bit , will have to get a quick
release set up .......:U

Woodturnerjosh
25th November 2018, 09:15 PM
A handle system is great for free hand sharpening (for me anyway). I made some quick change handles using ER collet chucks I bought of ebay and used them for a couple of years until the tax man was kind to me and forked out a bit on the SB tools carbon fibre handles. They're not cheap but the best handles I've used (and before anyone asks, yes, I prefer them to timber handles) being light but very rigid and, as they are not round, I find them very comfortable and less fatiguing to use.
446155

p.s. yes that long one is ridiculously long :p

Sorry, this post is a little off topic to the 40/40 grind thing, here's a pic of my grind
446156

tony_A
25th November 2018, 09:32 PM
I'm with you on this one smiife, it's my preferred grind although I do have one gouge with a swept back grind. Have tried the bevel at 45 deg to see if the edge will last any longer cutting dry wood and cant really say if it does or not but it still seems to cut as well. Stuarts vid's all show him turning green timber with shavings flying off the tool like long strips of fettuccine but that's generally not the sort of wood I turn. I find that dry native blackwood doesn't lend itself to the pull cut that well and knocks the edge off the tool pretty quickly.

I use the double bevel Stuart talks about, putting the primary bevel on by eye using a 180 grit wheel, leaving about 1 mm of secondary bevel, and then use a Tormek gouge jig to grind the secondary. Have a 1200 grit wheel on the Tormek but as it is only grinding a bevel about 1 to 3 mm wide it only takes on light sweep to sharpen. Once the secondary bevel is more than about 3 mm wide, back to the 180 grit.
Cant say that I've mastered the push cut, always need to finish off with a negative rake scraper.

NeilS
26th November 2018, 10:43 AM
Josh has made some very helpful comments on this topic, all of which I agree with.

I also use a 40° bevel on my push cut bowl gouges, but modified as a result of using an Ellsworth style jig to sharpen (nowadays I prefer to sharpen with a jig). So, the bevel is 40° at the nose, but not all the way along the swept back edge as that style of jig can't maintain a constant bevel angle along the whole edge. See photo for profile taken from the side.

Yes, this bevel angle gives a very clean finish on any wood from the hardest to the punkiest you are likely to turn. It is less likely to pull end fibers out (Batty gives a good explanation why). It is also very good for final sheer cuts, if they are still needed.

However, it is not as suited to the transition and bottom areas inside a bowl. So, you need dedicated gouges for those areas with much higher bevel angles.

It is not a profile I would start turners on for several reasons. First being you need more than one BG and most beginners struggle to justify the cost of one good BG, let alone two.

Second, and probably more importantly, the push cut with a low bevel angle is more difficult cut to master. A novice can gain proficiency with a combination of pull and push cuts with a higher bevel angle much faster. Once proficient with that you might be ready to progress to and manage a Batty style push cut and grind profile.

Lastly, skilled freehand sharpening is bridge too far for many novice turners. At least with a jig one variable remains somewhat constant.

Cindy Drozda has a good video on the 40/40 grind if you are ready try this grind freehand.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc

I also agree that removable handles make sharpening much easier, particularly if you are doing it freehand.

Last comment on freehand sharpening. Many professional woodturners and older woodturners like myself began sharpening before jigs came in. They are proficient at doing it freehand and it's quicker for them, but I notice that many of the professionals, like Glenn Lucas, use jigs to sharpen for/in their classes, which says something about the benefits of doing so for the novice or occasional turner.

I use jigs now wherever I can. The older I get the more I find that they are just as quick and I'm not spending time rectifying freehand angle drift or slips. Thus my modified 40° grind.







https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/93fe5794d82fb8e96f37729cca3e390d.jpg

Sent from my ZTE T84 using Tapatalk

smiife
26th November 2018, 07:52 PM
A handle system is great for free hand sharpening (for me anyway). I made some quick change handles using ER collet chucks I bought of ebay and used them for a couple of years until the tax man was kind to me and forked out a bit on the SB tools carbon fibre handles. They're not cheap but the best handles I've used (and before anyone asks, yes, I prefer them to timber handles) being light but very rigid and, as they are not round, I find them very comfortable and less fatiguing to use.
446155

p.s. yes that long one is ridiculously long :p

Sorry, this post is a little off topic to the 40/40 grind thing, here's a pic of my grind
446156

Hi Josh, thats a great set up you have there , I tried to look up
SB tools to buy something similar but couldn, t find any , where did you
buy yours ? Thanks for your thoughts and photo,s
When you say they are not round , what shape are they ?

smiife
26th November 2018, 08:02 PM
I'm with you on this one smiife, it's my preferred grind although I do have one gouge with a swept back grind. Have tried the bevel at 45 deg to see if the edge will last any longer cutting dry wood and cant really say if it does or not but it still seems to cut as well. Stuarts vid's all show him turning green timber with shavings flying off the tool like long strips of fettuccine but that's generally not the sort of wood I turn. I find that dry native blackwood doesn't lend itself to the pull cut that well and knocks the edge off the tool pretty quickly.

I use the double bevel Stuart talks about, putting the primary bevel on by eye using a 180 grit wheel, leaving about 1 mm of secondary bevel, and then use a Tormek gouge jig to grind the secondary. Have a 1200 grit wheel on the Tormek but as it is only grinding a bevel about 1 to 3 mm wide it only takes on light sweep to sharpen. Once the secondary bevel is more than about 3 mm wide, back to the 180 grit.
Cant say that I've mastered the push cut, always need to finish off with a negative rake scraper.

Hi tony , never thought about a double bevel , does the angle stay at 40º ?
I can, t say I have mastered this push cut , I only just tried it yesterday so
will keep on practicing , thanks for your comments

smiife
26th November 2018, 08:16 PM
Josh has made some very helpful comments on this topic, all of which I agree with.

I also use a 40° bevel on my push cut bowl gouges, but modified as a result of using an Ellsworth style jig to sharpen (nowadays I prefer to sharpen with a jig). So, the bevel is 40° at the nose, but not all the way along the swept back edge as that style of jig can't maintain a constant bevel angle along the whole edge. See photo for profile taken from the side.

Yes, this bevel angle gives a very clean finish on any wood from the hardest to the punkiest you are likely to turn. It is less likely to pull end fibers out (Batty gives a good explanation why). It is also very good for final sheer cuts, if they are still needed.

However, it is not as suited to the transition and bottom areas inside a bowl. So, you need dedicated gouges for those areas with much higher bevel angles.

It is not a profile I would start turners on for several reasons. First being you need more than one BG and most beginners struggle to justify the cost of one good BG, let alone two.

Second, and probably more importantly, the push cut with a low bevel angle is more difficult cut to master. A novice can gain proficiency with a combination of pull and push cuts with a higher bevel angle much faster. Once proficient with that you might be ready to progress to and manage a Batty style push cut and grind profile.

Lastly, skilled freehand sharpening is bridge too far for many novice turners. At least with a jig one variable remains somewhat constant.

Cindy Drozda has a good video on the 40/40 grind if you are ready try this grind freehand.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_KDSIDAtGc

I also agree that removable handles make sharpening much easier, particularly if you are doing it freehand.

Last comment on freehand sharpening. Many professional woodturners and older woodturners like myself began sharpening before jigs came in. They are proficient at doing it freehand and it's quicker for them, but I notice that many of the professionals, like Glenn Lucas, use jigs to sharpen for/in their classes, which says something about the benefits of doing so for the novice or occasional turner.

I use jigs now wherever I can. The older I get the more I find that they are just as quick and I'm not spending time rectifying freehand angle drift or slips. Thus my modified 40° grind.







https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/93fe5794d82fb8e96f37729cca3e390d.jpg

Sent from my ZTE T84 using Tapatalk


Hi neil , some good points there too , I did try and use my jigs , but not very sucessful , I had never tried to sharpen freehand before but thought i would try this 40/40 grind , took a bit of practice and a bit of metal , but got there in the end , well almost I think .......

Woodturnerjosh
26th November 2018, 08:17 PM
Hi Josh, thats a great set up you have there , I tried to look upSB tools to buy something similar but couldn, t find any , where did you buy yours ? Thanks for your thoughts and photo,sWhen you say they are not round , what shape are they ?
I purchased mine from Woodworkers Emporium in america. I ordered a fair bit at once to make the postage sting less and as they are carbon fibre they are light enough to keep the cost down.
They're a kind lobed-hexagonal shape
446166

smiife
26th November 2018, 08:23 PM
I purchased mine from Woodworkers Emporium in america. I ordered a fair bit at once to make the postage sting less and as they are carbon fibre they are light enough to keep the cost down.
They're a kind lobed-hexagonal shape
446166

Cool thanks mate , off to the www.

Woodturnerjosh
26th November 2018, 08:34 PM
When I first started using this grind I did it freehand first, then tried to get something close using a jig and with the Tormek jig (and probably others) you can get close. The downside for me was that I found it very easy to over grind the wing portion when using the jig and switched back to free hand grinding.
Like Neil said, I wouldn't recommend free hand grinding unless you already have a few years of turning under your belt and I wouldn't even bother if my tools had fixed handles :U

NeilS
26th November 2018, 08:35 PM
Here is a comparison of the finish off a 40° bevel BG. Closeup of finish in 2nd Photo. The wood is very spalted, punky and includes a soft pith centre.


446168 446169


And, the finish off a 65° bevel BG in next photo.


446167

As you can see, the 40° bevel can produce a finish that has no end grain tear out on this challenging piece of wood. In comparison, the 65° bevel gives a torn out finish on the end grain.

I should have also mentioned, like Josh, I use high angle BGs (mine are at 65-70°) to do the bulk of my green and rough turning, using pull cuts, where finish on the end grain is not an issue at that stage of turning. I find them quicker and easier for this.

Woodturnerjosh
26th November 2018, 08:35 PM
Cool thanks mate , off to the www.
Make sure you're sitting down :p

tony_A
26th November 2018, 08:44 PM
Hi tony , never thought about a double bevel , does the angle stay at 40º ?
I can, t say I have mastered this push cut , I only just tried it yesterday so
will keep on practicing , thanks for your comments

G'day smiife
I grind the primary bevel by eye but went and measured the angle out of interest and it was very close to 30. I see that Josh is using a double bevel in the photo of his gouge above. Two advantages from my perspective, it relieves the heel of the grind and allows the gouge to better follow the transition curve on the inside of a bowl, and allows me to easily sharpen a gouge on a 1200 grit wheel. The secondary bevel only needs to be a mm or so wide to do a bevel riding cut. From memory Cindy Drozda covers it and I think Stuart does as well in one of his vids.

Tony

NeilS
27th November 2018, 01:14 PM
And, as a reference, here are two photos of Stuart Batty's own gouge with its 40/40 grind, if anyone else is wanting to have a go at this.


446170 446171

Note note how straight the wings are. Drozda puts a slight convex curve on hers.

smiife
27th November 2018, 08:08 PM
And, as a reference, here are two photos of Stuart Batty's own gouge with its 40/40 grind, if anyone else is wanting to have a go at this.


446170 446171

Note note how straight the wings are. Drozda puts a slight convex curve on hers.


Yeah , I think I might have to go back to the drawing board .....:no:
My gouge is nothing like that !

NeilS
1st December 2018, 11:31 AM
Yeah , I think I might have to go back to the drawing board .....:no:
My gouge is nothing like that !

Josh also had a good photo of his 40/40 grind in post #4, shown from a different angle.

And, a few more of Batty's own gouge, here (http://www.dmwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Stuart-Batty-40-40-Grind-Photos.pdf).

If you are still not sure if you are getting it right, Peter Miao's jig (https://www.petermiao.com/news/2017/11/11/a-jig-for-4040-grind), which is specifically for the 40/40 grind, might help. One of the things that his jig does is keep the edge that is being ground parallel to the platform, which is a point that Cindy Drozda emphasises for this grind.

Here is another reference (http://www.dmwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Batty_40-40_Gouge_sharpening_illustrated.pdf) on this same point.

smiife
2nd December 2018, 05:33 PM
Josh also had a good photo of his 40/40 grind in post #4, shown from a different angle.

And, a few more of Batty's own gouge, here (http://www.dmwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Stuart-Batty-40-40-Grind-Photos.pdf).

If you are still not sure if you are getting it right, Peter Miao's jig (https://www.petermiao.com/news/2017/11/11/a-jig-for-4040-grind), which is specifically for the 40/40 grind, might help. One of the things that his jig does is keep the edge that is being ground parallel to the platform, which is a point that Cindy Drozda emphasises for this grind.

Here is another reference (http://www.dmwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Batty_40-40_Gouge_sharpening_illustrated.pdf) on this same point.


Hi Neil , thanks for the Info , very interesting , will have another try
next weekend , just ran out of time , vistors all weekend (don, t they
realize I need my shed time :~) ..........

smiife
8th December 2018, 08:50 PM
A handle system is great for free hand sharpening (for me anyway). I made some quick change handles using ER collet chucks I bought of ebay and used them for a couple of years until the tax man was kind to me and forked out a bit on the SB tools carbon fibre handles. They're not cheap but the best handles I've used (and before anyone asks, yes, I prefer them to timber handles) being light but very rigid and, as they are not round, I find them very comfortable and less fatiguing to use.
446155

p.s. yes that long one is ridiculously long :p

Sorry, this post is a little off topic to the 40/40 grind thing, here's a pic of my grind
446156



Hi Josh, which handle do you use the most with the bowl gouge ? Am thinking of ordering one and was thinking of a 20"/24" handle and a 5/8"or 3/4" gouge ,
I can only afford one at this stage and wanted to get the right for large bowls
Would like to know what you think ?

Woodturnerjosh
10th December 2018, 10:19 PM
Hi Josh, which handle do you use the most with the bowl gouge ? Am thinking of ordering one and was thinking of a 20"/24" handle and a 5/8"or 3/4" gouge ,
I can only afford one at this stage and wanted to get the right for large bowls
Would like to know what you think ?

If you're only buying one and you'll use it for both a bottom bowl gouge and a 4040 then I'd go for the 24". I've been doing a heap of production lights at the moment and mainly use the 20" handles as these are only shallow fittings. The weight difference between the 20 and 24 is nothing to mention and if you're using Batty's techniques you won't have much of an issue with body contact, but if your lathe is close to the wall you might have problems when using it for hollowing cuts (depending on how you hollow out a bowl).
If your budget stretches that far I'd also recommend his angle setting gauge, I find it really handy for setting up my platforms for all the angles I use but you might have a better system already.
Cheers

Josh

smiife
11th December 2018, 08:17 PM
If you're only buying one and you'll use it for both a bottom bowl gouge and a 4040 then I'd go for the 24". I've been doing a heap of production lights at the moment and mainly use the 20" handles as these are only shallow fittings. The weight difference between the 20 and 24 is nothing to mention and if you're using Batty's techniques you won't have much of an issue with body contact, but if your lathe is close to the wall you might have problems when using it for hollowing cuts (depending on how you hollow out a bowl).
If your budget stretches that far I'd also recommend his angle setting gauge, I find it really handy for setting up my platforms for all the angles I use but you might have a better system already.
Cheers

Josh

Hi Josh , thanks for the reply , I have been on the woodworkers emporium site but they do not seem to have any bowl gouges ........:o
Am I on the right site ? Is there other places that sell SB tools do you know ?
Thanks for your help
Cheers

Woodturnerjosh
12th December 2018, 09:04 PM
Hi Josh , thanks for the reply , I have been on the woodworkers emporium site but they do not seem to have any bowl gouges ........:o
Am I on the right site ? Is there other places that sell SB tools do you know ?
Thanks for your help
Cheers
I don't think SB tools gouges ever made it to the market and Woodworkers Emporium purchased the right to make the handles and they sell Oneway gouges already fitted with the SB Tools bolster. I have a couple of the oneway gouges and really like them, they have a nice elliptical/parabolic flute and a steel that stays sharp nicely. When I need another 1/2" bowl gouge the Oneway is probably the one I'll buy again.

smiife
15th December 2018, 08:19 PM
I don't think SB tools gouges ever made it to the market and Woodworkers Emporium purchased the right to make the handles and they sell Oneway gouges already fitted with the SB Tools bolster. I have a couple of the oneway gouges and really like them, they have a nice elliptical/parabolic flute and a steel that stays sharp nicely. When I need another 1/2" bowl gouge the Oneway is probably the one I'll buy again.

Hi Josh , So I won, t be getting a SB bowl gouge from santa this year !!!:no: