PSI Project Kits - WARNING

[RobSys]

G'Day All,

I recently purchased some kits direct from Penn State Industries (PSI) in the States. Included in the order were some stabilised spalted maple timber blanks. One of these was badly split (all the way through for almost half its length) rendering it useless.

Contacting PSI, I discovered that yes, they will replace the blank under warranty however for international orders, you have to pay for shipping the replacement! To ship a single 25mm blank they charge USD 14.25 (for an item that costs USD 6.85) - That would be almost $20.00!

In the past, I have had other warranty claims which had been shipped without charge or question - as it should be!

However, apparently PSI's conditions (as advised in their response today) state:

"Please note our policies regarding products sold to international customers:
The Penn State Industries' warranty for products sold outside the USA are the same as for products sold in the continental United States, with the following exceptions:

1) All shipping costs will be the responsibility of the buyer including, but not limited to: freight costs for the original product, warranty repairs, service, exchanges, product returns, and spare parts."

Now, it appears that PSI can off-load its defective goods on its international purchasers in the full knowledge that it is most unlikely that warranty claims will be made due to the shipping costs.

This is simply not good enough!

Please keep this in mind if you are considering a purchase from PSI direct.

Rob
:((

[Ironwood]

Well that really stinks. They expect you to pay for their mistake, it should have been picked up before it was packed.

[Mobyturns]

Why can't they credit the refund to your CC. So easy to assess photos of the goods the subject of your claim, and if accepted credit the purchase price back to your credit card or offer a store credit on a future purchase.

Vastly different experience to my excellent service from Craft Supplies a few years back. An Escoulen Chuck that I purchased on special arrived with the well made storage / presentation box damaged. Without any dramas they accepted my photos & offered to send a new chuck, not just the box, which was not necessary.

[RobSys]

Hi...

Yes they do offer to provide a "store" credit or will include the item in a new order. (Apparently this is not an option for US customers - I presume that they simply mail replacement goods out. The postage for warranty items is ONLY applied to international customers.)

They issued a warranty return slip having accepted photographic evidence of the fault.

Problem is, I have lost all confidence and trust in PSI and I will not order from them again. Therefore a "store" credit is useless to me.

Since my original post, I have lodged a complaint with Paypal demanding the credit be placed in my account.

I will keep you informed on the results - if any...

Rob

[woodPixel]

Yes, the Yanks do things differently.

Their capitalism is exploitative, and as you've found out, unfair to the disadvantaged. It's quite predatory and deliberate.

Its strange they wouldn't have given you a refund though.

You wont have such dramas with Paypal, they are quick to put the hammer down on these kinds of things. You'll get your refund.

[RobSys]

Hi all!

In response to my complaint to Paypal, PSI has credited my account with the $6.85 USD I requested.

In addition, PSI has offered an "online gift card for the blank $18.95" (the blank was part of a larger kit) which I have rejected as being superfluous in light of the Paypal resolution. It's rather silly that the two amounts sum up to be more than the $14.50 USD it would have cost to just send the replacement.

Note however that their policy is still to charge international clients postage costs for warranty replacement parts!

In all the emails, there is no mention of changing their stance and I for one am not willing to accept the risk in future.

Rob

[Paul39]

RobSys, I wonder if you could run a bunch of CA glue down the crack and clamp tight, leave for a week. Always something to be said for holding an object in your hand before buying, and being able to hand it across the counter if there is a problem.

Is there an equivalent of Maple in AU? Has anyone tried causing it to spalt. I dragged home a bunch of Maple last year and let it sit on the ground. We had almost 80 inches of rain, and I have a truck load of spalted maple bowl blanks. And an equal truck load of uninteresting, and punky firewood.

[RobSys]

RobSys, I wonder if you could run a bunch of CA glue down the crack and clamp tight, leave for a week. Always something to be said for holding an object in your hand before buying, and being able to hand it across the counter if there is a problem.

Is there an equivalent of Maple in AU? Has anyone tried causing it to spalt. I dragged home a bunch of Maple last year and let it sit on the ground. We had almost 80 inches of rain, and I have a truck load of spalted maple bowl blanks. And an equal truck load of uninteresting, and punky firewood.

The splits only really became apparent after I drilled the blank. At the cracked end, the drill hole was actually oval so the cracked opened up after drilling. I tried gluing the crack but the chemicals used by PSI's suppliers to stabilise the maple made the wood extremely hard.

I filled the cracks with a thin CA (and some sawdust) and immediately clamped it in a vice. I could not get any squeeze out at all - there was absolutely no movement in the blank even under serious pressure. Besides, since the crack went all the way through the blank, the cracks would have shown up in the finished product - which was my main issue. There's no way I could sell the finished project. (It was a shaving set - brush, razor and stand.)

I have since completed the turning/assembly and indeed, the cracks are there... Annoying!

Rob

[QC Inspector]

Bad experience for sure.

You made this comment in your opening post. "Now, it appears that PSI can off-load its defective goods on its international purchasers in the full knowledge that it is most unlikely that warranty claims will be made due to the shipping costs." Believe it or not but PSI is too big to set aside bad product to save for international orders. It would take up too much room to put the junk in a parts bin beside the good stuff just to put in international orders not to mention the costs of replacing the domestic stuff if the minimum wage stock picker grabbed the order from the wrong box. If they put all the junk in one location then their labour costs would soar if the pickers had to go to that spot to look for the item and then back to get a good one if there wasn't a bad one to ship.

It's not a fair policy but the portion of international sales is likely very small.

Pete

[Mobyturns]

The splits only really became apparent after I drilled the blank. At the cracked end, the drill hole was actually oval so the cracked opened up after drilling. I tried gluing the crack but the chemicals used by PSI's suppliers to stabilise the maple made the wood extremely hard.
Rob

If that is the case, then it would be difficult for the vendors staff to detect.

It may well be your technique that has caused the issue. Hard brittle materials require a nice sharp drill bit, steady drilling technique, slow(er)speeds, and frequent clearing of the swarf.

Many turners don't realize that the waste / swarf "bulks" significantly and if the drill flutes can't clear the swarf fast enough, the friction generated by excessive drilling speed with a blunt drill bit causes the problems you have experienced. The expanding swarf creates sufficient pressure to split otherwise reasonably sound materials.

I make a lot of laminated pen blanks (Celtic knots, brickwork patterns etc) with many small components and veneer inlays and know from experience that good technique and a nice sharp drill bit prevents many failures. The drill bit profile makes a huge difference to the force required to drill a blank and also to the wear and tear on your body, and the drill press or tail stock quill thread if you drill on the lathe. Drilling from both ends of a pen or project kit blank also makes a huge improvement if you are prepared to invest in the tooling to accurately drill on the lathe.

From my experience going from a standard cheap drill bit to a Sutton "Viper" drill bit made a very significant improvement and then sharpening the "Viper" profile with the Tormek "4 facet grind" an almost quantum leap over a standard profile cheap drill bit. I almost never loose a laminated blank through drilling now, whereas it was probably as high as 20% with crap drill bits.

[RobSys]

Bad experience for sure.

You made this comment in your opening post. "Now, it appears that PSI can off-load its defective goods on its international purchasers in the full knowledge that it is most unlikely that warranty claims will be made due to the shipping costs." Believe it or not but PSI is too big to set aside bad product to save for international orders. It would take up too much room to put the junk in a parts bin beside the good stuff just to put in international orders not to mention the costs of replacing the domestic stuff if the minimum wage stock picker grabbed the order from the wrong box. If they put all the junk in one location then their labour costs would soar if the pickers had to go to that spot to look for the item and then back to get a good one if there wasn't a bad one to ship.

It's not a fair policy but the portion of international sales is likely very small.

Pete

Without a doubt you are correct. It still leaves a sour taste in my mouth though...

It boils down to the fact that their quality control leaves a bit to be desired... Still, given the size of the business and the amount of stock that passes through it, it's no wonder that a few items slip through. Their policy regarding international customers still sucks though...

Rob

[RobSys]

If that is the case, then it would be difficult for the vendors staff to detect.

It may well be your technique that has caused the issue. Hard brittle materials require a nice sharp drill bit, steady drilling technique, slow(er)speeds, and frequent clearing of the swarf.

Many turners don't realize that the waste / swarf "bulks" significantly and if the drill flutes can't clear the swarf fast enough, the friction generated by excessive drilling speed with a blunt drill bit causes the problems you have experienced. The expanding swarf creates sufficient pressure to split otherwise reasonably sound materials.

I make a lot of laminated pen blanks (Celtic knots, brickwork patterns etc) with many small components and veneer inlays and know from experience that good technique and a nice sharp drill bit prevents many failures. The drill bit profile makes a huge difference to the force required to drill a blank and also to the wear and tear on your body, and the drill press or tail stock quill thread if you drill on the lathe. Drilling from both ends of a pen or project kit blank also makes a huge improvement if you are prepared to invest in the tooling to accurately drill on the lathe.

From my experience going from a standard cheap drill bit to a Sutton "Viper" drill bit made a very significant improvement and then sharpening the "Viper" profile with the Tormek "4 facet grind" an almost quantum leap over a standard profile cheap drill bit. I almost never loose a laminated blank through drilling now, whereas it was probably as high as 20% with crap drill bits.

I drill my blanks on the lathe using the pen drilling jaws on my chuck and the Viper bits. I don't have a Tormec but I do sharpen the bits using the Drill Doctor. You're quite right about the swarf build-up, particularly when you get to the end of the process. I always drill in several stages and until now haven't lost a blank in a very long time.

But losing the blank is not really the issue. The real issue is PSI's attitude to its international customers...

Rob

[smiife]

Rob , I don, t think I would bother getting blanks from the USA ,
We have some very nice timbers here in australia , I am sure you
could save yourself a lot of hassel and get them from the many
Sponsors on this site and keep your money in australia.even if
it is only $6.85...........:o:o

[RobSys]

Rob , I don, t think I would bother getting blanks from the USA ,
We have some very nice timbers here in australia , I am sure you
could save yourself a lot of hassel and get them from the many
Sponsors on this site and keep your money in australia.even if
it is only $6.85...........:o:o

I agree totally! This was for a special order... The only other time I imported blanks was when they were part of a bulk multi-pen pack.

I also use recovered timber from furniture, etc. that's been broken up.

Now that I'm living in the bush, I get a heap of timber from local farms. A bit of work cutting it up to blank size but well worth it...

Rob