NOT a challenge - a couple of Questions

[Euge]

I'm not a turner so hope you don't mind answering a couple of questions.

How long does it take a reasonably experienced penmaker to turn & finish a pen? (After you have all the gear, made or set up all the the jigs etc.)
What are the most difficult woods to drill turn and finsh?

Thank you. Euge :)

[QC Inspector]

Mine take an hour or two but that's for a 2 piece pen turned between centres and I only turn one every month or two. A production turner doing a batch can bring the time down to half an hour or less especially with a one piece kit. I'm not organized enough to have everything at hand either. :)

Softer woods are more difficult to work with as they tear out more and sand unevenly. Not insurmountable with sharp tools and an understanding of what to do to minimize problems.

Pete

[Fumbler]

same here. If doing an acrylic blank, then about 40min from mounting, with 10min of that being sanding/micro-meshing, 5min to stop and answer Dumb- questions from SWMBO that could wait til I finish. IF doing CA Finish probably about an hour, maybe same time as acrylic if doing a sierra, vs R Jnr Gents, ie 2 barrels. had 15 ready to go but been side tracked with perfume pens (posted recently) they took about an hour each. I haven't actually put a stop watch on see how long it takes. I have 1 that has to be re-finished and has been in the drawer for near on 6months......

[bdar]

For me it takes a couple of weeks. I have the components in the plating I like and always 12 blanks that I know will compliment the plating being used. I will take a blank out of the line up and place it with the components until the one feels right in my heart.

For me it is about respecting the medium you use, timber, resin, mixed media and what you pair it with. Respecting and understanding how a timber will cut and how much force you can cut with.

Turning side of things a single timber barrel around 5 minutes, resin about 10. Sanding before finishing between 5 and 10. I finish with CA so I take my time building thin layers and cutting back every 4 to 5 coats. That would be 20 to 30 minutes.

Final cut back, sand and 3 stage buffing off the lathe that takes anywhere up to 30 to 45 minutes. Then if I take in account of drilling and glue up it would be 3 hours plus for a pen. I don't feel there is a race to finish a pen.

I may post photos of several pens at once but they all have been worked on throughout that time frame over days maybe a couple of weeks. I leave them a week before assembly just in case of a brain fart and I applied the CA to thick and it cracks. Slow, steady, respectful and taking your time will give more enjoyment to me than saying I did 30 pens in a day.

But that is just me Euge. Hope it shows what each piece of timber means to me before I let it continues into something else.

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[Gabriel]

If I started and stopped a clock of a trial work time, I'd suggest a single pen would take about 1.5 hours start to finish. The process I take means a few breaks of downtime though.
Cut blank
Drill blank
Paint inside of blank (resin or hybrid blanks)
* If painted leave overnight to dry

Glue tubes - polyurethane glue for timber (gorilla glue)
- epoxy for hybrid or resin blanks (aryldite ultra clear)
*Leave overnight at an absolute minimum to dry (I prefer 24 hrs)

Square off ends of blank on disc sander
Turn tubes on lathe
Sand to 600 grit
- hybrid blanks get micromeshed
Clean with ISO alcohol
(I use accelerator between costs and leave for 30 sec between coats)
Apply 2 costs of blood + thin CA
Apply 4 coats of med CA
Apply 2 costs of thin CA
*Leave at least 2 hours for CA to cure thoroughly

Wetland 600 (removes CA ridges if any)
Micromesh
Resin polish (Supercheap auto 'auto glym' - I think it's a headlight cleaner or something)
Assemble with press


I know a few steps may be redundant or other processes could speed me up but I get repeatable and acceptable results with this - Occasionally I modify my total process when I find something else that should be incorporated.

So over about 3 evenings I can get a pen produced a single pen but in that time I could also produce half a dozen pens

Including procrastination time and just looking at useless stuff in the shed these timelines can blow way outta proportion though!

[Ironwood]

I could do a pen from start to finish in an hour or less if I really had to, but speed is not what it’s about for me. Experimental pens I ussually do quickly, because I want to see the results. But when I am making pens that will be sold, I take between 3 days, to a month, I am usually working in small batches and have pens finished to various stages, each step is done properly and I am in no rush to get to the end. That’s how I prefer to work.
Commissions are a whole other ballgame, they usually approach me a day or two before they need the pen, weddings are the worst, they expect me to make the pens, sometimes I have to cast the blanks if I have none in stock, get the pens to the engravers and back, and do something about a presentation box, all in the space of a few days. I try to get people to give me at least two weeks for a commission , but most times that just doesn’t happen.

As far as difficult woods, I find my Cooktown Ironwood Burl the most difficult to drill and turn accurately, the drill bit will wander and even bend while drilling, and the changing grain can result in out of round pens if care is not taken.
Some timbers are prone to cracking, sometimes a crack can appear after putting a week or two into a blank, Creek Wilga/Dogwood, and Snakewood are two examples that come to mind.
I don’t have trouble finishing most timbers, but oily or resinous woods need some extra care. My recent thread on Pennyleaf highlights some of this. Once you successfully get the first sealing coat of CA on, I don’t think there is any difference doing the rest of the finishing process between different timbers. The only exceptions are blanks that have had voids that were filled with CA, these need to be left a few days longer, before final sanding and buffing , to allow for shrinkage.

[Gabriel]

Oh, Brad just tweaked my memory- as far as difficult goes (I personally haven't tried it yet) snakewood.
Brosimum guianense from South America.
Reportedly it is a bit if a bugger to turn and finish properly....but more importantly it is very prone to cracking. Whether this be at the drilling, turning it finishing stage....but also even months after completion I have heard of them cracking.

Les in red deer (great forum member and pen turner pioneer) always puts a note on any snakewood pens he sees - 'i can hear it cracking from here's

As I say, I haven't turned one myself as I'm too bloody scared to buy the stuff just to have it crack on me (quite expensive if you can find it)

[Euge]

Wow, THANK YOU ALL for your detailed and very individual replies. It helps me appreciate that its an individual experience it is for each of you. Now I can better appreciate what difficulties you go through and the skills you apply to your individual pens (or perfume holders) whether they be of wood or acrylic or both. I wonder if your customers buyers or gift receivers appreciate the effort?

It gives me a much better appreciation of what you each do and how you each approach it. It's obviously a labour of love. You must enjoy it even with its ocassional frustrations (answering silly questions, drilling difficulties, finishing, cracking, filling voices, etc) You are not only showing and exchanging your skills but (for me) the variety of woods, wood hybrids and finishes you are challenged by, yet expose in all their beauty as finished pens.

The difference between a rough-sawn square blank of wood (eg those I offer) and the finely finished pen are just remarkable and often unrecognisable. I assume most of you sell your pens and I am tempted to ask at what price but I should not, although I realise some are gifts for family and friends. Any other comments and views on this subject are invited.

Finally as an occasional supplier of woods for pens may I also ask - what is it you are annoyed by when finding / buying / using wood blanks? Is it the limited choice of quality material? Or wood voids? cracks? undersize? price? wax? How do you choose your pen style from many kits available?

Again, many thanks for your interesting replies
Euge

edit: PS: Gab, I am sure I can find a piece of snakewood for you to test .. see if you can crack it or not. :)

[Gabriel]

Ha - price is a whole new can if worms Euge!
I am not a regular seller, so if asked I place a price that I consider reasonable for my time and the materials. To some this may be expensive, to others I may not value my time highly enough however I do this for enjoyment, not a business.
Honestly, depending on kits (single barrel, capped, rollerball etc) I like charging anywhere from $65 to $120 per pen. Whilst to most people (non pen turners) it sounds like a heck of a lot for a pen, but to turners I think it's possibly middle of the road.

As far as kit choices go.....oh how I wish postage from the states wasn't so expensive!! With their large market they have a massive selection of amazing kits at their disposal. Sure, we can get them shipped over here but unless you're buying bulk ($400au +) then the shipping can be very expensive. About $50 at a rough guess so if only buying 2 or 3 kits it makes it an expensive exercise.
It is a really personal thing - I much prefer a sleek design if kit without much bling. The satin metal finishes that are starting to pop up look fantastic in my eyes, but my overall favorites kits being the minstrel from England and the Lincoln jr kit from the states. Aussie suppliers do a great job but I'm a man who always wants more!!

When buying timber, I like to know a bit of the history of it if possible (adds to the story if the pen) and I love the unusual and hard to get. Arid zone timbers are my favorites to work with. Wether it be gidgee or brigalow from Australia or desert ironwood from the states - the tight grain and age of these timbers, not to mention the amazing colours, really appeal to me.

The smell if huon is like cracking a bottle of wine to an alcoholic though. If you haven't worked with it for a bit, and then cop a whiff of it - you just want more!!!!

Whilst I am very aware and glad all the restrictions on the world's rosewood are in place (for a very good reason) I do love them and jump at the chance if ever they pop up locally.

The only thing that tends to annoy me when turning a timber pen is when I spend time to get it right, but the blank itselfturns out to be straight grain and kinda boring. It takes the same time to turn a beautifully fiddleback piece of Blackwood to create a beautiful writing instrument, as it does a radiata pine pen - dunno why you'd bother with the latter...

But as stated earlier - I don't sell many pens, don't have a market stall and these are just my thoughts on the topic

[bdar]

Euge, I am for one that if I want a blank and it is a certain price then I pay it. What I hate seeing especially with certified timber is when another pen crafter that money is no option buys all pen blanks out of a supplier and then controls supply and demand with prices inflated by the y anywhere up to 400% if not more. Example Harry Potter pen blanks were originally £3.70 each the now sell between $60 - $80 US.

Getting hold of redwoods for me is hard now. Timber being true to description and underside and cracked

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[Euge]

Hi Gab, thanks so much for you considered and interesting reply.

Your prices, having seen and being gifted some exceedingly fine pens from you, are not high IMO. They are what I would consider of "exhibition quality" or close as are those of some other members who post. But then I am not a judge of turning or pens. We are often our own worst critics. The fact that you do it for enjoyment is always special and gives you a special place in any woods I offer to penmakers. I am not cricitising those who make / sell their pens at markets etc. Most prices at markets eg for slim-lines made of ordinary timbers I've see are $25- $35 ea, sometimes less. You offer (when you do) is to another, high-end, market. So the $65-$120 is fine for what I consider the high-end “executive” pens, at accordingly executive prices. I believe there could be another (much smaller) market for $250+ range, offered in hand made (wood) boxes … special gifts for special people (visiting, diplomats, dignitaries etc). What do some say? "You get what you pay for”(or is that …. deserve?)

Thanks for your other comments on those woods you like most Gab, no surprises there!!

One comment on plain woods, is that they are ONLY acceptable (ie appreciated) if they are special in some way eg bit of history (recent ancient or prehistoric), is exceedingly rare or unusual, of from an unusual source or place etc. Imagine a pen made from a piece of Noah's Ark! !! Or from Tuts tomb? Or from Nelson ship? You get what I mean. :) :oo:

A Texas friend made beautiful pens using horn material of the dense white tail deer. US makers could use that.
Has anyone used mammoth tusk? Another curiosity with a story.

[Euge]

Euge, I am for one that if I want a blank and it is a certain price then I pay it. What I hate seeing especially with certified timber is when another pen crafter that money is no option buys all pen blanks out of a supplier and then controls supply and demand with prices inflated by the y anywhere up to 400% if not more. Example Harry Potter pen blanks were originally £3.70 each the now sell between $60 - $80 US.

Getting hold of redwoods for me is hard now. Timber being true to description and underside and cracked

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Hi Bdar, I kind of get what you mean is that you buy what you like … or can afford, or want to buy. No surprises there. There are opportunities to obtain, buy and sell wood (in some form) that we woodies all experience at times. My hate is "missing out” or worst, "just missing out” . So my motto is if if you see something you really REALLY like but its expensive and almost out of reach buy it NOW! Because I hate the feeling of regret or knowing it may never come up again or will be found or offered at much higher priced next time. Its happened many times and we all have been through it. I am talking generically but can applied to woods in the past, woods that I find myself not needing or wanting now. They are still special.

Perhaps you are talking of opportunists that exploit others with their capital (buying power) or control market (selling at high profits). The buying and selling “game” is full of all kinds (people, sharks, snakes etc) as well as opportunities and disappointments.

By Redwoods do you mean red woods? There are plenty in Australia different shades of red and many different and beautiful figures.

"True to description” is important to me to as an IWCS member. I like accurate identity (wherever possible) and buyers should be able to trust that if they are buying and orange they are not being sold an apple (or a mandarin).

By “underside" I guess you mean undersized. Yes, I guess cracks are a disappointment and need some repair, unless they are expected and you know how to make “feature" of them. Arent they easy to fill or repair, unless in a near finished pen. Some woods (in fact often to most beautiful, interesting and weak) are cracked or have rot, voids etc. But if filled or stabilised (even with a contrasting coloured acrylic) they can look absolutely fantastic and can be offered as a premium pen. These are my own views and you may not agree with them. Thanks for your views and opinions. :)

[bdar]

Euge sorry I meant rosewoods

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[Ironwood]

While I get most of my timber blanks from stuff I have cut myself, I have in the past done many swaps with other turners and collectors, it’s a great way to get stuff that is not obtainable in your own area. I have also paid for timber blanks when I see stuff I really want/like. My upper limit is around $10 per blank, and they have to be extremely special to pay that. I did pay more once, but it was a calculated decision, because I knew I could recover it with a higher price for the finished pen.

My biggest peeve when buying blanks, is when the best side is shown in the photo, and there is no mention of the defects on the underside . I don’t mind defects, but I want to know about them before I buy, and pay accordingly. For my pens I prefer not to have cracks, I only use cracked blanks if there is something really special about the rest of the blank. I can fill the crack and stabilise it with CA, but most times it’s still visible, and if I am selling the pen, I don’t want to be making excuses to the customer.

[DonP]

Hi Euge,

I think about one hour, spread over several days, to produce a pen. No rushing, just doing a bit at a time whilst keeping an eye on how the timber is coming up. Generally a few pens in the process at any time.

I prefer aussie hardwoods and will give any a go - as I probably mentioned when to you recently whe collecting some blanks.

I just enjoy working with wood, slowly make a collection of pens that I try to sell at the local Rotary market leading up to Christmas. I sell at a low price as I want people to be able to see and use the great timbers that we have.

I prefer talking to people selling timber/blanks to get an idea of where the timber came from and what it was previously used for - eg bridge timber, wharf decking whatever.

seeya
DonP

[Euge]

Hi Ironwood,

Most of my wood was obtained adventiously and opportunistically. Much was bought from dealers around the country from WA Qld NSW and across Vic, some from from dealers overseas, some was collected on my many outback adventures, some bought at IWCS auctions, more exchanged and some gifted, occasionally in exchange for something. I've tried to put the brakes on and largely have. My focus was on diversity, beauty and rarity- no surprise. I try to limit my upper costs for fine pen blanks to $5 but some are much higher because of their extreme rarity or beauty. Depends. That does not mean they are worth it! That prices probably indicates I don't wish to sell it maybe is a measure of my attachment ie means (psychologically) I really don't want to sell them. For the best pens selling for $100- $130 or more $10 for an extreme wood seems about right... unless you give them away and I often do.

Yes, sellers always show the best most attractive side (because they want to sell items) but the other sides should be also shown, or at least mentioned. I tell myself that! With many blanks it requires more and careful photography. For a few dollars it may not seems worth it. I've seen cracks / holes in knife handles and pens, not filled to hide ./ disguise them but to exaggerate / make a feature eg with bright pigmented polymers and they can look stunning. I think Gab may do this. But borer holes are not nice. Stabilised, punky and spalted wood can also look fantastic.

Hi Don, Good to hear from you. Thanks for your response and ideas.

Like you, I like Aussie hardwoods too, especially the desert hardwoods. I have a soft spot for some softwood from Tasmania though. Even cutting wood on a bandsaw as I do can be satisfying as it was when cutting up some glorious spalted peppermint. I rarely get a chance to talk to woodies except when they visit or at IWCS events. As you say, exploring the history and provenance of a wood can add interest and value.

Cheers, Euge

[Ironwood]

The vast majority of my timber, I collected/harvested myself. One place that I lived and worked at for quite a while, they were clearing the forest and burning it to open up new mining areas. I obtained letters of permission from the Indigenous landholders, and the mining Co. then got the relevant permits from the Government, paid the royalties etc. This gave me access to the fallen trees which I could select and mill myself, (I built my own portable mill) I did this on my days off from my real job, and amassed quite a stash of nice timber. Most of this is slabbed and cut for furniture building, but I was always on the lookout for the gems that held promise for turning and pens. Also over the years I have bought bits and pieces here and there that have caught my eye, I also did plenty of swaps with other turners/woodies.
The last 2 years I have stopped my buying, as I am having trouble storing any more, and when I think soberly about it , I have enough. If/when I move, it’s going to be a problem, think semitrailer.
I still keep the good stuff from the trees that fall on my property, and a good mate from out west insists on bringing me stuff he collects from out there every time he comes to visit, hence my recent posts with Bulloak, Dead Finish, false sandalwood, etc. He visited last weekend with some smallish Vine Tree and Brigalow logs.