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routermaniac
22nd October 2005, 11:46 PM
Hi guys,

Over the last few months I got started on very s l o w l y building myself a workbench. I am nearly there and the only power tool I used was a biscuit joiner...

Anyway, I need some advise on the best glue to use for the mortice and tenons used as part of the frame.

Also I would appreciate some suggestions with regards to finishing. PS I will post some pics when its all finished but given my free time at present it is unlikely to be anytime soon. The table top is made from crapiata and the base from Australian hardwood.

Thanks for your responses.

mkb
23rd October 2005, 08:53 PM
West Sytem Expoy, Carbatec sell it. Sticks ... to fur :eek: also very good for gap filling.

echnidna
23rd October 2005, 09:04 PM
pva is stronger than the wood.

NewLou
23rd October 2005, 09:07 PM
Any of the modern type glues will do fine & cure harder than the Wood if you prepare your glueups right. How were you planning on glueing the top of your Bench up???..............edge joining or longgrain to longrain??

Wongo recently ran through his glueup process for his bench........... would be worth checking out too~!!!......................Preparation n planning is the key!!

Regards lou:)

ian
23rd October 2005, 09:56 PM
Hi guys,

Over the last few months I got started on very s l o w l y building myself a workbench. I am nearly there and the only power tool I used was a biscuit joiner...

Anyway, I need some advise on the best glue to use for the mortice and tenons used as part of the frame.you may not want to glue the base. Wedged tennons or draw pins would allow the frame to be dissambled should youy ever need to get the bench out the door
Also I would appreciate some suggestions with regards to finishing. The table top is made from crapiata and the base from Australian hardwood.tongue oil floor sealer

ian

routermaniac
24th October 2005, 04:54 PM
thanks for the responses guys...


mkb: this is exactly what I was wondering about, will epoxy be better and stronger than PVA? I huse the triton PVA and usually I get very good results, but given how long this has taken to make, I don't want to take any risks...

newlou: thanks for pointing me to wongos post, I have been away for weeks and have missed it all. The top is finished, biscuits all in place, all it needs is gluing up. I think :confused: I have edge joined the bits and pieces????

ian: too late for wedges mate and anyway I think they may be a little out of my skill range at the moment ;) . I have already cut all the joints, they are standard mortice and tenon (not through mortice), your idea of not gluing it all up is a good one but I really want no movement in the legs.... my joinery is not that accurate yet. I will screw the finished table top however so at least I can get it (the bench) out of my tiny shed in the future (for repairs, moving, etc).

regards

Marios

Shavings
26th October 2005, 10:04 AM
Just a suggestion..
If you think being able to pull it apart and move it later would be usefull, what about using pins through the mortise ... drill a hole through the mortise and tenon then push a tight fitting pin through ( could even glue it) when you need to pull it apart knock ( or drill) the pin out.
If you slightly offset the holes then when you push the pin through this should help to draw the joint tight..

Warren

mkb
26th October 2005, 11:08 AM
routermaniac,

I use Triton glue (& Titebond II) for my table tops, only use the epoxy where I have dodgy mortice & tenons (gap filling) or anticipate racking in the frame.

I would expect that the epoxy is stronger, but with laminating you will break the wood (yes I've tried it) before you will break the glue line. and the PVA goes on straight from the bottle, whereas you need to mix the epoxy

HTH
Mark

routermaniac
26th October 2005, 07:02 PM
thanks guys, sticking with the triton glue and I'll let you know how it goes. Given my small number of clamps I cant see finishing before a couple of weeks. Will post pics when all done.

Corunetes
26th October 2005, 08:29 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that the question guaranteed to get a complete hatful of answers is: "What is the best glue to use?"............... No two answers agree but nobody seems to mind either............ ODD! :confused:

scooter
27th October 2005, 12:30 AM
Maniac, good luck with the bench project.

Just a suggestion, the Triton glue, despite being yellow in colour, isn't a "yellow glue" (ie. cross linking &/or aliphatic resin type), just a PVA.

This isn't really a drama, except for PVAs being prone to creep after the glue curing.

I'd pick at least a decent aliphatic resin type, eg. Weldbond's Al. Resin, Anton Gerner's is spoken well of here, etc. An alternative, & supposed to be very strong, is a polyurethane glue.


Good luck................cheers................Sean, prone to creeping :)

Corunetes
27th October 2005, 12:37 AM
An alternative, & supposed to be very strong, is a polyurethane glue.

Polyuretrhane is the only glue that I have problems with............... It doesn't pass the "dog chomp test." (I glue some timber pieces together, leave the piece for 2 days and then give it to my friend's Staffy to play with.........) The only failure so far has been the Polyurethane....... (The test was repeated for scientific purposes with the same result. :(

Ivan in Oz
27th October 2005, 06:58 AM
> It doesn't pass the "dog chomp test." (I glue some timber pieces together, > leave the piece for 2 days and then give it to my friend's Staffy to play
> with.........)

Peter,
In what way does it not pass the "Dog Chomp Test"?...What's the test :confused:

Used to breed the Rotton Mongrel SBTs :o :o
they rip your heart strings worse than any other Dog;
MAGIC with Kids [children type] though :D

Corunetes
27th October 2005, 11:46 AM
In what way does it not pass the "Dog Chomp Test"?...What's the test


Well, as a person who has bred these dogs you would be aware that they can just about bite through an iron bar........ Hence, give the test piece to the dog and wait for it to start chomping....... If it breaks the glue then it has failed the test, if it is the timber that fails then the glue has passed. :p
The scientific base for these experiments is a tad questionable but the dog loves it!

routermaniac
4th November 2005, 11:27 AM
OK, slow progress on the workbench, the tabletop is nearly there, but I am in the process of finishing up the frame before I complete the gluing of the top...

I had a long think about the suggestion that perhaps the frame should not be glued and I think this is probably the right way to go for me as it is likely I will be moving house in the next couple of years and transporting the glued up frame will be a PITA...

Now I have done a search on the different ways of fixing the the frame with bolts and screws and etc... However when I was doing a test fit of the frame, using tension straps it occured to me that the frame did not rack... zilch, nothing! It doesnt matter how much force I put on the frame, there was no racking????

Is it too far fetched, idiotic, etc to leave that part of the bench fixed in that way so when I need to move I can simply disassemble it and take it with me???? I must mention, I have reservations about drilling through my handcut tenons given the time they have taken to make... (not a reflection of the level of difficulty but my lack of skill!)

I must add that the short sides of the bench are properly glued, the only thing floating is the long pieces of wood (sorry I know there is a name for these but I cant remember it!).

What does everyone think? I have attached a couple of pics...

Andy Mac
4th November 2005, 11:44 AM
Looking good Routermaniac,
I reckon it will be a good bench when complete.
I see you using ratchet straps for clamping (good idea:) ) and in light of an earlier comment you made about lacking clamps but too late now, nothing wrong with going low-tech...using rope with a stick to twitch it up!:D I use such things often, mainly for strange shapes, tapered chair frames, but also when I run out of clamps.
I look forward to the next stage.

Cheers,

ian
4th November 2005, 10:17 PM
Is it too far fetched, idiotic, etc to leave that part of the bench fixed in that way so when I need to move I can simply disassemble it and take it with me???? I must mention, I have reservations about drilling through my handcut tenons given the time they have taken to make... (not a reflection of the level of difficulty but my lack of skill!)The look might be a bit odd, but you could make the ratchet straps the permanent "knock-down" fitting

ian

zenwood
4th November 2005, 10:53 PM
The knock-down tension straps seem a great idea. If the M&T's are a tight fit, especially in the up/down direction, then you wouldn't get racking. Might loosen over the years, though, in which case you might need to glue, or use some kind of bed-bolt arrangement.

Just wondering if the lower strecher is a bit low? Will you be kicking your ankles against it when standing at the bench?

Looks like a very sturdy design overall.

Still haven't finished my bench after starting it 6 years ago.

routermaniac
5th November 2005, 04:16 PM
guys the comments re the design being a little odd are spot on, this was not only made for building things on but stashing all my crap underneath including the triton bench and routertable, GMC lathe, etc! I have a tiny shed (1.8x1.8m) and the only way to store my stuff would be under the bench, you will see what I mean when I post some more pics...

The bench is perfect height for me but in order to give me the required space for storing all my stuff the bottom beams had to be at that point. It isn't ergonomic but this will be a hell of an improvement over my workmate.

When I move, I intend to replace to table top with a wider and longer version wih significant overhang, hence knocking my feet into the bottom beam will not be an issue.

regards

Marios

routermaniac
5th November 2005, 04:24 PM
Heres a picture just after I started smoothing the table top...

DPB
5th November 2005, 06:26 PM
RM, it's going to be a fine bench.

I understand your reason for the lower stretchers being so low. Why are the upper ones lower than the top? I believe it is normal for the upper stretchers to be level with the leg height so that the top can be attached along this surface.

Had these been higher, you would not have needed to have the lower ones so low. It will be a pain when something rolls under these and getting a broom under them will be quite difficult.:)

zenwood
5th November 2005, 06:55 PM
Gotta love the Hills Hoist. Perfect for hanging power cords from, dust collector hoses...

;););););););););););););););););););););););)

routermaniac
6th November 2005, 01:09 AM
RM, it's going to be a fine bench.

I understand your reason for the lower stretchers being so low. Why are the upper ones lower than the top? I believe it is normal for the upper stretchers to be level with the leg height so that the top can be attached along this surface.

Had these been higher, you would not have needed to have the lower ones so low. It will be a pain when something rolls under these and getting a broom under them will be quite difficult.:)

DPB that was reflecting the fact that I have changed the design since I originally laminated the legs... you will see in my next pics that the top part of the legs has been sawn off and it is now flat with the strechers.

The top tenons (luckily I had cut the mortices first!) were designed to allow me to saw off the top of the legs without compromising strength. See below...

Also re the distance between the bottom stretcher and the floor, this is exactly the distance required for storage of a couple of jigs I have made and my pipe clamps. I am really starved for space, you will see when I post the final pics...

antisense
6th November 2005, 09:49 PM
Hi,

I am also making a bench and I am about to glue.

I was just wondering, when you glue M&T joins, will the tennon expand from the glue??

I'm just wondering if it's ok to have say a 1mm gap when you dry join them. They are a reasonably tight fit at the moment, but there are a couple of gaps out the outer face where you'll be able to see the tennon end.

Do minor gaps tend to dissapear after glueing?

Cheers,

antisense

routermaniac
13th November 2005, 01:52 PM
you have to account for the space the glue makes, make sure your mortice and tenons and are tight fit but can be pushed together by hand.

regards

Marios

routermaniac
13th November 2005, 01:58 PM
OK guys, table top has been fixed onto the frame and the vices fitted but no backboard yet.

The bench is in my tiny shed and I have temporarily put some particle board across the bottom shelf so it can hold all the triton stuff while I am working on the bench.

I have started drilling the dog holes with a jig I have come with an I am pretty happy with how things are going. here are some pics for an update...

Next thing is to fill in any tear out in the pine , sand again and 3 coats of polyurethane. I must admit I really wanted to use oil but because the pine is so white when I tried it, it got filthy very quickly, so I ended us re-sanding and this time I will be using poly.

Lignum
13th November 2005, 02:48 PM
Howdy Routermaniac. Your bench looks like it will be a ripper:D But my only concern, and its a worry, is you dont appear to have enough dog holes:cool:

routermaniac
13th November 2005, 08:19 PM
Hey Lignum you're gonna love the finished product then mate, only 96 dog holes!

There is some reason behind all this madness, since I have little space in my shed, I will also be using the bench for my panel clamp style setups, hence the number of dog holes, I will be making a jig to allow me to do this.

Also as I do not have space for an end vice, more dogs facing the two vices will allow a bit more flexibility.. I was thinking of adding another row... but then I thought that maybe going a little tiny bit overboard :rolleyes: .

Anyway, here is the completed top with all 96 dog holes...

Auld Bassoon
13th November 2005, 08:28 PM
Looks good mate!

What are you going to be using for dogs - making your own?

Cheers!

Just George
13th November 2005, 08:43 PM
I have started drilling the dog holes with a jig I have come with an I am pretty happy with how things are going. here are some pics for an update...


Holy Duck Crap, I was blown away when I saw the drill bit you were using in your drill. How did that go? That's the type of thing that my boss would expect us to use in the workshop where I work. Once that worm grabbed, it would've almost pulled the drill through the timber like it was turbo charged?

Woody

routermaniac
13th November 2005, 08:51 PM
Looks good mate!

What are you going to be using for dogs - making your own?

Cheers!

I have some from a workmate type setup and I will be making a few myself from timber. There are a lot of jig ideas that come to mind to utilise these bench dogs... but more of that in the near future ;)

routermaniac
13th November 2005, 08:54 PM
Holy Duck Crap, I was blown away when I saw the drill bit you were using in your drill. How did that go? That's the type of thing that my boss would expect us to use in the workshop where I work. Once that worm grabbed, it would've almost pulled the drill through the timber like it was turbo charged?

Woody

Hey mate.. very easy to do no accidents and the auger still in perfect shape. Basically because I was using a hand drill, I needed a jig to guide the auger perpendicular to the table but also support the bench so there was no tearout.

The setup in the last couple of pics helped me do this quite well, a variable drill is needed of course and you need to be careful and go slow, all the rest is a matter of time, particularly if you're doing 96 of them ;)

Just George
13th November 2005, 08:59 PM
I'm glad there were no accidents, 96 holes is a lot to do with a hand auger;) .

Woody

Lignum
13th November 2005, 09:40 PM
Looks good mate!

What are you going to be using for dogs - making your own?

Cheers!

As long as you dont use poodles, they are to soft and squishy:cool:

Waldo
13th November 2005, 09:57 PM
G'day Routermaniac,

Better change your name to dogholesmaniac I reackon. Streuth 96 of them! :eek:

I'd be forever loosing my pecnil or something else down them.

Just George
13th November 2005, 09:59 PM
As long as you dont use poodles, they are to soft and squishy:cool:

What about a Rottenwheeler?

Woody

Lignum
13th November 2005, 10:34 PM
What about a Rottenwheeler?

Woody

plonk em under the bench and their stuby tails can poke up through the holes... Hmmm :rolleyes:

Auld Bassoon
13th November 2005, 10:45 PM
plonk em under the bench and their stuby tails can poke up through the holes... Hmmm :rolleyes:
AhHah! that's how Manx cats came into being - ancient woodies using stray moggie's tails as stops:eek: :D :p

routermaniac
5th December 2005, 03:52 PM
Its finally finished,

Here it is, my first workbench, with all 96 dog holes and the two vices and front skirt finally in place.

3 coats of poly later and a bit of reorganising, and here are the results. I am very excited, finally have a bench I can build things on!!!!

Mind you space is still an issue, it leaves just enough room in my shed to get about... The vices are facing the door, so for longer pieces I can plane out of door.

Anyway, also great fun to see that $25 Stanley 4 make some paper thin shavings....

routermaniac
5th December 2005, 03:54 PM
Heres a few more pics!

Bodgy
5th December 2005, 04:03 PM
Well done RM.

Couple of things, given your sobriquet, I don't see a router table anywhere.

Secondly, you made me very happy, I finally found someone with a shed smaller than mine. Don't you love to hear these guys whingeing about how a single car garage is too small for them to work in?

Good restoration on the Stanley too

Auld Bassoon
5th December 2005, 08:58 PM
Heres a few more pics!

Lovely job RM!

The bench looks great.

Got a bit carried away there with the "test planing" eh?:D

Cheers!

routermaniac
5th December 2005, 10:02 PM
couldnt help myself, my first bench, a plane waiting to go.. just too tempting :)

routermaniac
5th December 2005, 10:04 PM
Well done RM.

Couple of things, given your sobriquet, I don't see a router table anywhere.

Secondly, you made me very happy, I finally found someone with a shed smaller than mine. Don't you love to hear these guys whingeing about how a single car garage is too small for them to work in?

Good restoration on the Stanley too

Believe it or not, the triton router table is setup opposite the workbench, currently I have a plank of MDF on it and the bench grinder is sitting up there, underneath it lies my compressor and vac... its amazing how much crap you can fit in a 2m square shed :-)