Goat Island Skiff

[Boatmik]

And Paulownia is probably fine for the stem and the transom framing, except for the top stiffener of the transom.

The Paulownia solid timber seems to be the best opportunity for reducing weight now that Gaboon ply is becoming less available for some.

But if both Gaboon AND Paulownia are available .. you won't find me complaining!

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

Also, are there any visual tips for selecting good ply?

I think the advice is to look along the edges of the stock of sheets you are thinking of buying. If there are no voids in the edges of the sheets you are looking at they may also be few voids in the middle of the sheets as well.

The other thing is, I think, try and find Ply with reasonably equal veneers, rather than say two paper thin outer veneers and one thick middle one in a 3 ply.

Others are far more experienced than I am in this area, but that's a couple of things to consider.

Brian

[Boatmik]

That has been quite true of some of the Gaboon that has been appearing here ... the face veneers have to be better quality, so sometimes they cut them so thin that by the time the faces are sanded you can see the dark glue coming through.

So like Brian says it is nice to look at the edges of their stock ... there is nothing like looking at the edges of 20 or 40 sheets in a rack or stack to get some idea of what is happening in the middle.

If I am phone ordering I always put a bit of pressure on them by asking if there are any problems will they replace any problem sheets.

MIK

[woodeneye]

Has anyone installed venturi-type self-bailers in their boats? I imagine that the Goat would take on a bit of water if capsized.

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

It sure does ... it is quite a bit of bailing. One guy is putting in some drain tubes that go out through the transom and run level to the front of the seat bulkhead in front. Also there is the possibility of closing up the mid seat and even extending its front forward.

The reason I don't mention self bailers much is that the things leak after a short time making sure that there is always a bit of water in the boat. Usually the Goat will only have the amount of water aboard that you bring in on your feet because it is so high sided. So swings and roundabouts.

By the way, if you go ahead, the optimum solution is two of them out to either side of the boat about a little bit forward of the widest point of the floor. Actually I can't remember where the water accumulates when sailing the Goat in proper trim.

MIK

[woodeneye]

Thanks for the info. I sure as heck will install bailers as there is only one use for a bucket in a boat and it ain't for bailing! It's a long time ago but I can remember having problems with leaks and having to make new gaskets from inner tubes. Nowadays they sell the gaskets separately. Is there any good oil on which brands are preferred, ones to avoid etc?

I was thinking about installing drain tubes, but it's overkill for the Goat. Double the sail area and I'd think about it then. :q

I showed my brother a pic of the goat and I think he's quite intrigued. He sails a Paper Tiger and his young'n sails an Opti. But he's hinted that he'd love to have a family boat if the budget allowed. Well, that's the whole point of the Goat, isn't it?!

[Boatmik]

Howdy Bruce,

It is not between the hull and the fitting that it leaks, it is the the sliding fit between the baseplate and the bailer section which swings down pivoted at the front. The water is only kept out by pressure of a rubber seal against the side of the bailer section.

MIK

[woodeneye]

I am wondering how low the GIS sits in the water after being brought back upright after a capsize and it's full of water? Perhaps the cockpit tube drains would be useless anyway if the outlet wasn't above the surface. If so the venturi self bailers would be a better solution anyway.

Does anyone have a pic of their boat while full of water, or from experience can you describe where the water level is in the hull?

[arbordg]

I am wondering how low the GIS sits in the water after being brought back upright after a capsize and it's full of water? Perhaps the cockpit tube drains would be useless anyway if the outlet wasn't above the surface. If so the venturi self bailers would be a better solution anyway.

Does anyone have a pic of their boat while full of water, or from experience can you describe where the water level is in the hull?

No photos, thank goodness, but I think maybe Mik & I are the only ones who've capsized a Goat. Him because he sails hard (while staring at the sheilas, no doubt), and me because I sail badly.

My experience was that she popped right back up quite readily. There was a good bit of water left in the boat once she came upright. The level was a few inches below the top of the daggerboard case. So she wasn't refilling as you bailed, but it took some exercise to get all the water out. An old fart like me... I wouldn't want to be doing it multiple times per day. Since my capsize came the first day sailing her... and I'd never skippered a small sailboat before... and we've never capsized her again... I don't worry too much about it.


"Life's a voyage that's homeward bound" -- Herman Melville

[b.o.a.t.]

I am wondering how low the GIS sits in the water after being brought back upright after a capsize and it's full of water? Perhaps the cockpit tube drains would be useless anyway if the outlet wasn't above the surface. If so the venturi self bailers would be a better solution anyway.

Does anyone have a pic of their boat while full of water, or from experience can you describe where the water level is in the hull?

From first principles of hydraulics...
All that is needed for drain tubes to work is that the surface level in the boat to be
higher than the surface outside. Buoyancy boxes fore & aft make sure of that.
Gravity will do the rest. However, as the difference is likely to be only an inch or so
(someone with the plans can do the relative volume calculations), it is likely to be a
steady draining rather than a dumping, and only to the bottom of the tubes. The few
inches remaining will need to be gotten rid of manually. Naturally, bigger tubes would
speed the process, as would adding extra buoyancy down low. Hope this helps.
cheers
AJ

[keyhavenpotter]

If so the venturi self bailers would be a better solution anyway.

Venturi bailers will only let water IN when stationary after a capsize. You need to be going quite quickly, a good reaching speed, before they work, and this is the last thing you want to be doing with a boat heavy with water. If you do fit venturi bailers you have to bail out a lot of water by bucket before setting off to empty the rest with the venturi bailers. And if they were already open when you capsized, ie sailing fast in strong winds, they will not help whilst you hand bail just the opposite.

I came back to dinghy sailing 9 years ago, and have capsized only twice. Once on purpose to test things, no problems in a light wind. The other time was racing in strong winds. I had been reading too many books about gybing downwind as you would tack upwind in shifts. One gybe too many and mainsheet caught on transom, most usual way of capsizing, and over she went very quickly. Much windier this time, far more water in the boat, much harder work allround.

So although real conditions are more difficult than practice ones, the main point is capsizes are very rare. You might only have to bail once in 10 years. If you fit a venturi, as MIK says, you will have a leaky boat every time you sail in those 10 years. IMHO.

Brian

[jmk89]

Also, my only serious sailing injury was caused by falling on a venturi - the edge sliced a 200mm gash in my leg which then meant that the water I had to bail out by hand was not only cold and wet and salty but tinged red with my claret! Since then I have formed the view that they not only don't work but they are a menace!

[MiddleAgesMan]

Here's a video from a distance but you can get a little idea.

YouTube - Righting a capsized Goat Island Skiff

MIK used to have one up showing him bailing Gruff. That one gives you a better idea but I couldn't find it.

[woodeneye]

Thanks guys. From the video, it seems to still float pretty high when brought upright. On its side, the daggerboard isn't above the water by much so it takes a nice big slurp on the way up.

It appears that climbing back aboard is fine for one person at a time from the same side in it's full state, and the bouyancy is plenty. Maybe not two at a time from the same side? The gunwales are still nice and high enough so that if there was a chop, it won't take on too much more water, if any.

Judging by the comments you've all made regarding leaks, it appears that the quality of these venturi type bailers is woeful these days. I never had any problems with leaks apart from a perished gasket, which was easily fixed. I can't recall the brands available at the time but they had a nice strong lever and clicking action to seal them.

You've given me a bit to think about, so thanks all....

[Boatmik]

Howdy

The good common ones are the RILEY brand in OZ. I don't think you will see anywhere else in the world. For racing they are rugged, but they do leak just a tiny bit after a while. There seems to be a basic problem with putting holes in a boat!!! :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/379094149_0666ef7c8c.jpg?v=0

There is a capsize and recovery set of pics here - I was showing off to some young women in a fishing boat ... they brought me my paddle back :(
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157594516743453/

With two aboard it would be dead easy. One climbs aboard and starts bailing and the other just focusses on stopping the boat from capsizing again - staying outside the boat and holding onto the side (warm water) or getting aboard and just moving to keep things upright. One person for one job!

Singlehanded ... The thing I would do differently next time if I was in open water in a strong wind is I would drop the sail. Possibly before righting the boat - make sure there is a knot in the end of the halyard!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!! (just to repeat!!!). Then right the boat and it will be much easier for one person to hold upright.

Get rid of the water and rehoist the sail (probably after reefing down - carry ropes for this.)

MIK

[woodeneye]

Great pics there Mik!

Yeah, when one is more chronologically advantaged, capsizing, righting and hopping back in can be accomplished without getting ones feet wet! My Dabchick didn't need bailing as it had no cockpit. They could be righted in about 15secs and then you were off again and as fast as the next boat too. The Sprog was a cinch also because its cockpit was very small and the "seat" was a closed in buoyancy tank. But if you did take a swim, getting onto the centreboard was a problem because it floated so high......especially as I wore a water weight jacket too, which added a few kilos. The GIS's board is very low, but a stirrup would still make things easier if needed.

I'll look into the Rileys, thanks for that.

By the way Mik, that sail on Gruff looks really nice . Who is the sailmaker?

[paulie]

Back in the day, I would crew on 420s, which are just a tad larger than Sprogs but very easy to capsize. I became adept at righting the boat and getting back into position without going in the water. My feet would get wet from whatever shipped into the cockpit, but everything above the knees would be dry. I'd already be hooked into the trapeze and smiling calmly by the time skipper hauled his soaking behind over the transom. He'd give me the evil eye and cuss me out, but I figured that was just his penalty for dumping us!

[Boatmik]

That sail was made by Biting Midge's local Tarpaulin maker. He had some sailcloth and made it up.!

MIK

[woodeneye]

That sail was made by Biting Midge's local Tarpaulin maker. He had some sailcloth and made it up.!

MIK

Clearly he missed his proper vocation!

[Boatmik]

And he made them up about 12 years before these photos.

[SOLing]

My sail was made by KenO'Brien from Adelaide. Cheaper, including transport and taxes, then to have it made in Holland! Looks good. Have not tried it yet. (se avatar for the sail)

Ab

[woodeneye]

My sail was made by KenO'Brien from Adelaide. Cheaper, including transport and taxes, then to have it made in Holland! Looks good. Have not tried it yet. (se avatar for the sail)

Ab

Amazing! Labour and postage costs are not exactly cheap here in Oz.

[SOLing]

Amazing! Labour and postage costs are not exactly cheap here in Oz.

I guess costs of labour in Holland is even more. For an hour working on your car they charge Euro 80 (AUS $ 148) excluding 19% VAT! The hourly rate for a sailmaker is some Euro 55.....

greetings, Ab

[woodeneye]

Joost's exploits in his Goat have reached Southern Africa too!

http://ckdboats.blogspot.com/

[Boatmik]

hahaha ... cool.

They are my agents in South Africa ... they do computer cutting of ply. They were quick!!!

MIK

[woodeneye]

hahaha ... cool.

They are my agents in South Africa ... they do computer cutting of ply. They were quick!!!

MIK

Amazingly, I was trying to find a site that documents how to build stitch and glue wooden masts that I came across a few months ago, and I happened on Joost's story.

CKD also make birdsmouth mast kits as well. But I doubt that ordering a kit from across the Southern Ocean would be practical!

By the way, does anyone have the link to the stitch and glue timber masts?

[Boatmik]

Stitch and glue only really works when the timber can't split. This might mean the mast is made of plywood.

Plywood is not an efficient material for spars because you lose half the strength and something like that in stiffness too.

Did you see this page a bit further down ... on Birdsmouth masts. Anyone can give me a yell for the drawings by email if you have a Goat Plan already.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=81462

I can put you onto someone who can cut the staves and do the birdsmouths for you if you want.

MIK

[woodeneye]

Hi MIK

In the the article I read, the mast was made of tapered timber staves (No not ply. I agree ply won't work) similar to the birdsmouth method, except that the staves had simple 90deg edges and were stitched in the same manner as a boat is. The mast was made in two halves, over a series of about six shaped moulds. The moulds were either round or oval shaped depending on the desired shape of the mast. Then the two halves were brought together and glued. After that they were epoxy filleted in the same way as you would a plywood boat, and a layer of fibreglass finished off the process.

I think I have enough info in my head to draw a plan of the process, but the article has vanished. I did find the remnants of the page in Google's archives, but the pics and drawing are missing, which is somewhat frustrating.:doh:

[Glug]

Dear Bruce,

For my 4.5 M long lugsail mast for my Apple 16, I made a wooden core of 4 quarter-round pine decorative ceiling moldings from the lumberyard stitched and glued together. This produced an 8-sided tube with a slight oval hollow core and wall thichness of about 4-5mm. I coated the inside with a couple of layers of epoxy. I rounded it with a plane. The stiffened it with 3 layers of heavy carbon cloth sleeves and a thin protective sleeve of light glass. weight 9.0 kg and VERY stiff. Diam about 70 mm. Choose the molding that suits your use if you don't want to use carbon.

Peter Lord

[Glug]

I forgot to say that I tapered the top of the mast above the yard by just planing a bit off the edges of the 4 moldings. As the mast is attached to the sail only at the yard and via the downhaul just above the partners, and on "the disadvantageous" tack the sail presses evenly on the entire mast, I didn't think it should be tapered below the yard. Mik's requirement (and mine, for appearance's sake), was fulfilled by the taper above the yard, about 50 cm to the halyard block.
Peter

[Boatmik]

Hi Bruce,

It does sound like a messy and complicated job. Moulds don't sound easy if the mast is tapered.

Either a birdsmouth or the square hollow masts will get down to the target weights without the complication and look .... well ... wooden :)

Depends what you want of course. It is your boat after all!

I did have one person on the PDR forum say last week that he spent more effort not building the square hollow mast (he went through a number of iterations, solid, coopered, aluminium with a tapered top and another which I can't remember) than actually building it.

MIK

[Boatmik]

Dear Bruce,

For my 4.5 M long lugsail mast for my Apple 16, I made a wooden core of 4 quarter-round pine decorative ceiling moldings from the lumberyard stitched and glued together. This produced an 8-sided tube with a slight oval hollow core and wall thichness of about 4-5mm. I coated the inside with a couple of layers of epoxy. I rounded it with a plane. The stiffened it with 3 layers of heavy carbon cloth sleeves and a thin protective sleeve of light glass. weight 9.0 kg and VERY stiff. Diam about 70 mm. Choose the molding that suits your use if you don't want to use carbon.

Peter Lord

Just checked here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=74360&page=41
MAM used an aluminium flagpole available cheaply locally that weighed 20lbs.

Same weight. A tiny bit longer, stressed for two people hiking hard. The Goat Mast doesn't move much either.

I don't have a weight on the birdsmouth mast yet, but I would expect somewhere in that ballpark too.

That's always the problem with designing things. If they are too strong or stiff, you never find out. I do suspect the Goat mast is too stiff and thus too heavy - looking forward to sailing trials of Dana's birdsmouth mast. If successful it means all the Goat masts can be scaled down a bit.

A pure carbon mast could be designed to have a very significant weight advantage. But whether the effort in doing it makes enough of the difference to the function of the Apple or the Goat.

It is fun to play around with different methods, so if it is fun to build one ... why not?

MIK

[woodeneye]

I didn't find the article I was looking for, but I found this image with some options. The centre one using 1/4 round beading can produce a nice oval shape, but be more expensive than the square one naturally. Still relatively cheap to make yourself though.

My dad (an electrical engineer) made my wooden Sprog mast in the 70's when everybody had aluminium. It was very unique because it was a hollow triangular section that was heavily tapered and had the bolt rope track routed out. It was made quite light with jelutong and meranti and bend was controlled with forward facing jumpers at 90deg to each other. The mast could bend like a Finn mast for windward legs and be made as stiff one dared for downwind, even forward bend! I believe that jumpers are now banned in Sprogs so sadly wooden masts are now no longer competitive.

As you say MIK, wooden masts are a lot more fun. Also, they give you more options than any other material, and if you want more bend you can shave some wood off (a good way to find where the optimum is MIK; you keep doing this until it breaks!) In the same way you can add stiffness to certain spots by glueing more wood on.

Here is the pic I found:

http://www.braskermasten.nl/assets/images/mast.JPG

[woodeneye]

For those interested in a locally made balanced lug sail for the GIS, Duckflat Wooden Boats (Australia) has quoted me $855.00 for a 5oz cream coloured dacron sail with 2 reef points. Slightly more expensive than plain white in a lighter weight, but I believe the cloth is very nice.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/index.php

[Boatmik]

You can see why I chose the second! No complex shaping at all.

.. and also non obviously the square or rectangular mast can be designed way stiffer than a round one for the same weight of materials. Or lighter for the same stiffness.

But nice to see so many options! Well done.

MIK

[jmk89]

If you are in Sydney, there is a beautiful GIS on display this weekend at the TWWW show. Just go and drool. This is a boat that looks so much better in the flesh than in pictures!

[woodeneye]

If you are in Sydney, there is a beautiful GIS on display this weekend at the TWWW show. Just go and drool. This is a boat that looks so much better in the flesh than in pictures!

Awwwww...... :doh:

[Boatmik]

Whose boat is it?

Might be the guy who is the agent for Lie Nielson tools if it is there. Or an unidentified one.

What colour is it? Cool that it is there.

MIK

MIK

[jmk89]

Didn't get a photo. FIL will be there tomorrow and I will ask him to take a picture.
Red exterior, varnish interior
Said that it was made at Duck Flat, and was a first boat, so may have been at Spring or Autumn School

[woodeneye]

I wonder if it's this one?
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GoatDereksBoat.jpg

[Boatmik]

Paul Griffith's Boat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157602972202430/

MIK

[seajak]

I took the little bloke to the TWWW show today particularly to see Paul's GIS. The boat is indeed very beautiful and I also had the pleasure of meeting Paul himself. He is an exremely nice bloke and offered to lend me a hand whenever I needed one. Seeing a finished Goat was just the thing to feed my enthusiasm and certainly fired Lachlan up. The other highlight was seeing the 18' skiff Brtitannia in the flesh. I had already read Lachlan the story of it from Australian Wooden Boats, Vol 1 so we were both equally excited. A very comforting thing about the TWWW show was the number of grey and white beards to be seen, I fitted right in and felt very much at home :D.

cheers,
clay

[arbordg]

Michael Bogoger - aka The Dory Man - recently published a little writeup that I did on our GIS, Sisu. His blog can be viewed below. He also has done write-ups of a variety of interesting boats over the years. It's a site worth poking around a bit in. Good publicity for the Goat, and he was kind enough to say some flattering things about my firm. I think I must owe him a beer.

http://dory-man.blogspot.com/

Prosit,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
http://www.harborwoodworking.com/index.html


"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled". -- (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3894.html)Richard Feynman (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Richard_Feynman/)

[Boatmik]

I took the little bloke to the TWWW show today particularly to see Paul's GIS. The boat is indeed very beautiful and I also had the pleasure of meeting Paul himself. He is an exremely nice bloke and offered to lend me a hand whenever I needed one. Seeing a finished Goat was just the thing to feed my enthusiasm and certainly fired Lachlan up. The other highlight was seeing the 18' skiff Brtitannia in the flesh. I had already read Lachlan the story of it from Australian Wooden Boats, Vol 1 so we were both equally excited. A very comforting thing about the TWWW show was the number of grey and white beards to be seen, I fitted right in and felt very much at home :D.

cheers,
clay

If you are at a loose end during the hols ... you could consider dropping over to see Paul or inviting him over to see your GIS.

Hmmm - we used to call this process a "boat crawl" when I was involved with the Wooden Boat Association here in SA.

Maybe we should have a boat crawl in Adelaide, guys. In a couple of weeks Duckflat will start another of those D**n storer rowboats. So we could go see ...
Mike's Coquina,
DF Storer Rowboat and see the Herreshoff Dulcenea they are selling.
Daddles' Rowboat and Yellowtail.

Could be fun.
MIK

[m2c1Iw]

Michael Bogoger - aka The Dory Man - recently published a little writeup that I did on our GIS, Sisu. His blog can be viewed below. He also has done write-ups of a variety of interesting boats over the years. It's a site worth poking around a bit in. Good publicity for the Goat, and he was kind enough to say some flattering things about my firm. I think I must owe him a beer.

http://dory-man.blogspot.com/

Prosit,
David G
Harbor Woodworks
http://www.harborwoodworking.com/index.html


"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled". -- (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3894.html)Richard Feynman (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Richard_Feynman/)

Great article David and thanks for the link....yet another interesting site to visit :2tsup: Now if you could just explain the Richard Feynman quote I'll be able to sleep tonight.:D


If you are at a loose end during the hols ... you could consider dropping over to see Paul or inviting him over to see your GIS.

Hmmm - we used to call this process a "boat crawl" when I was involved with the Wooden Boat Association here in SA.

Maybe we should have a boat crawl in Adelaide, guys. In a couple of weeks Duckflat will start another of those D**n storer rowboats. So we could go see ...
Mike's Coquina,
DF Storer Rowboat and see the Herreshoff Dulcenea they are selling.
Daddles' Rowboat and Yellowtail.

Could be fun.
MIK

Good idea Mik you are always welcome but in my case you will need to enjoy looking at a pile of wood and a set of plans.:rolleyes:

[Boatmik]

Great article David and thanks for the link....yet another interesting site to visit :2tsup: Now if you could just explain the Richard Feynman quote I'll be able to sleep tonight.:D

Good idea Mik you are always welcome but in my case you will need to enjoy looking at a pile of wood and a set of plans.:rolleyes:

We'll have to wait a couple of weeks then.

[arbordg]

Great article David and thanks for the link....yet another interesting site to visit :2tsup: Now if you could just explain the Richard Feynman quote I'll be able to sleep tonight.:D

m2 --

Did you figure out the Feynman quote yet? Can you explain it to me? :U

Prosit,

[BobWes]

How about,

If it don't work, it don't work. All the hype in the world won't change that.

Bob

We now return you to your regular programing...

[m2c1Iw]

How about,

If it don't work, it don't work. All the hype in the world won't change that.

Bob

We now return you to your regular programing...

Thanks Bob that works for me

Cheers

[arbordg]

How about,

If it don't work, it don't work. All the hype in the world won't change that.

Bob

We now return you to your regular programing...

Such a smart feller. No wonder you chose to build a GIS, eh? :p

[Boatmik]

m2 --

Did you figure out the Feynman quote yet? Can you explain it to me? :U

Prosit,


"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled". -- (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3894.html)Richard Feynman (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Richard_Feynman/)

Feynman was one of the greats. If you want to laugh so loud that you startle the other passengers on a bus ... read "Surely you are joking, Mr Feynman".

A hugely entertaining little book.

The quote above is from Feynman's dissenting appendix to the Space Shuttle inquest. The first one that blew up on launch (Challenger?).

Basically the panel that was asked to analyse the problems were carefully shepherded around NASA by management, but Feynman wandered off and talked to the Engineers who were actually trying to make the stuff work in the way management wished it would.

The quote reflects the difference between the calculated probability of a failure from a management team and compares it with what had actually been achieved.

MIK

[arbordg]

Hayzzoooos Mik,

I figured that one was obscure enough I'd be the only one to know where it was from. Can't slip a darned thing past you, can we? :2tsup:

Shalom,

[woodeneye]

I have been discussing the GIS with an interested friend, and how it performs in the rougher stuff.

Can anyone relate their experience of sailing the Goat in a sea or a heavy chop? All of the pics that I've seen show the Goat with its bow clear of the water in flat water. In a chop, this attitude could predispose the GIS to some slamming.

My initial thoughts are that getting one's weight well forward when close hauled in order to "dig" the bow in a bit, combined with a slight heel should alleviate any slamming and likely will improve speed in such conditions. I mean, if sailing single handed, sitting abeam of the dagger board case, which is a good 30cm for'ard of the usual position. In this way, the boat's very fine entry would be quite an advantage I would think?

Can anyone relate if this works for the Goat?

[Boatmik]

Check with Joost who has had the Goat out in rougher water than I have.

But I have never noticed even the tiniest tendency to slam. The boat is so fine forward and the fineness of the lines means it doesn't pitch much either. If you have wide flat sections forward the bow will kick up suddenly because of the volume of buoyancy in the front end of the boat and has something big and flat to land on when it comes back to earth.

I would say for most normal sailing it doesn't slam at all. But Joost had it out on Loch Ness in rough conditions and a nasty chop.

MIK

[Joost]

Hello Woodeneye,

The GIS is very fast on all points of sail when the water is flat or in a minor chop as one would expect of a flatbottomed craft.

The Goat does not slam when sailing in bigger waves due to the longer length of the wave. Because the GIS is so light, she just floats over the top of them with no fuss at all.

Conditions that challange the GIS and its sailor most is smaller short chop (waves upto 2 ft maybe) and if the waves are coming from unpredictable and multiple the directions. In those conditions the boat might slam, if only a bit and loose some speed (foremost if there is not suffucient wind to blast the boat through/over the waves).

It does help a lot though to heel the boat a bit and to have the weight centered in the boat. I don't think that moving your weight forward another 30 cm's from the usual position just aft of the midseat when singlehandling will make much difference though. And your tiller extension will have to become annoyingly long...

What will help is adjusting your course a bit to avoid taking the waves head on.

Wake from motorboats she handles in the most perfect manner I have ever seen a boat do: she is so light an buoyant that the GIS will just wobble a bit taking the wake.

Hope this helps.

Best regards, Joost

[woodeneye]

Thanks MIK, I was thinking that the fine entry of the Goat would be a huge plus in a sea when going to windward. But it is also built so lightly that a decent greenie would definitely slow progress somewhat, even if it could slice into a wave, but that it would pick up speed again very quickly afterward.

Offshore sailing in the Sprog was a hoot because it handled a sea very nicely, and I think the Goat will do very well indeed. I reckon it would surf a swell extremely well too!

But before I can build my Goat and find out, I have to sell a huge lump of ancient Teutonic steel that is still residing in my garage. She who must be obeyed has so decreed..... :no:

[woodeneye]

Hi Joost, my previous post must have just beaten yours to the post. Your experiences are great to hear, so that is wonderful news.

I was in a shop today that was selling aluminium ski and walking poles, that could be extended quite a long way by untwisting and retwisting them. They were cheap and even the handle grip looked ideal.........for a tiller extension! Mmmmmmm.....:D (Yeah, I know it's not WOOD, but it has plenty of potential)

[woodeneye]

I was in Bunnings yesterday and while there I checked out their timber. They have some awesome looking DAR pine, nice and straight with no knots, light in colour and fine grain. It could be top end radiata but I'm not sure. I was going to use some Hoop for my GIS for the bits that are not Paulownia, but had an ummmm moment when I saw this stuff. It's quite light too.

It was just labled "pine". Anyone know which pine it is that they sell?

PS. If I didn't know better I would say it IS Hoop pine. I have some Hoop planks and it looked VERY similar...

[johnt49]

Hi Bruce

Which Bunnings store was it? If it's any good I'll pinch it before you do. :-)

My investigations are actually leading me to Morgans Timber in Bibra Lake, Perth who claim to sell suitable pine at about half the price of Gaboon. They say you have to order it in and the freight kills you on the price. I wonder if I'll pay the penalty in weight, though?

Just cleared out the shed, bought a drill, and timber is next. Bring on the October school holidays!

John

[woodeneye]

Maitland NSW might be a little more of trip than you can manage on a Sunday arvo :wink:

[Watermaat]

I was in Bunnings yesterday and while there I checked out their timber. They have some awesome looking DAR pine, nice and straight with no knots, light in colour and fine grain. It could be top end radiata but I'm not sure. I was going to use some Hoop for my GIS for the bits that are not Paulownia, but had an ummmm moment when I saw this stuff. It's quite light too.

It was just labled "pine". Anyone know which pine it is that they sell?

PS. If I didn't know better I would say it IS Hoop pine. I have some Hoop planks and it looked VERY similar...

Hi Woodeneye,

Just my opinion, NOT being a proffesional builder or designer, but with some experience and common sense;
If wood looks good and feels good for the purpose you want to use it.....it is probably good.
For GIS construction any light flexible and pretty straight grained wood seems okay ( fir,pine, douglas or any local wood or name ) For spars you need to be more carefull in picking the right pieces, and it helps if you make spars out of several pieces of wood.
I have bought several planks of European fir at a big building and construction shop. This is the cheapest and most common wood available in my Western European area.
They had 480cm planks, 18 mm thick and variable sizes. I picked the very best out of a big pile and payed very little money ( 100 Euro ) for all I needed to make GIS,spars and oars plus some extra spare wood.
At home I carefully picked the very best of this to make the boxmast and second best for boom and yard ( I made them out of 3 layers laminated together ) and oars ( made out of 2 layers laminated ) . You need good stuff for chinelogs and gunwales and you can use left-over shorter pieces ( due to big knots or curved wood ) for the rest of the construction. For the rest I used inexpensive tropical "hardwood" from their garden department.
I did use similar wood for a Welsford Seagull design I have build last year and I have used it for new spars of my 22ft gaffer rebuild 2 years ago.
If carefully picked, ( and a "woodeneye" must be perfect in picking the right stuff :U ) made and sealed in epoxy with occasional glass to prevent splitting and heavy loads it works and looks very well and is very cost effective.
This is probably not the way to buy wood if you are really inexperienced and/or do not want to take any "risk" in having some occasional wood for the fire-place:C.....but for me it's part of the fun building a simple ( but very good ) design with simple ( but also very good ) material and still have a "looker" at the end that performs very well.

Attached a picture of this seagull to get you an idea.

[woodeneye]

Thanks for your thoughts Watermaat. I'm feeling increasingly confident about the Bunnings Pine now. I guess, the only reservations I'm having is because Bunnings is a huge "handyman" warehouse type of store and are not known to be a specialty timber supplier and therefore any timber they sell has to be average quality, right? Well, the pine looked good, was straight, straight and close grained, and had no knots. I don't think I've ever seen Radiata with no knots! I think it will be plenty good enough for a GIS and its spars, if they are well sealed. Anyway, why not push the envelope a bit to see how a radiata spar performs?!

I've also contacted a forum member who supplies Paulownia, so that will be used for the framing, chinelogs and centreboard/rudder staves.

And, WOW, the Seagull looks great!!!!

Edit: It only just occurred to me that the Seagull's gunwales/inwales are not beveled like the GIS and follows the angle of the sheer! At first I couldn't see what it was that was different :)

[Watermaat]

Hi Woodeneye,

My shop was similar, known by handyman and construction companies for general supply. They also have "avarage" quality wood, but they have such large quantities ( and turnover ) that you also can find great quality planks between the avarage stuff.
I used 18mm for my mast, to be shure to have it strong enough. I planed it a little thinner towards the top and it appears to be pretty light ( less than 9kg without epoxy ) since this fir is lighter than f.e. Douglas.
I am shure this will be a good and strong hollow mast at a very low price.

I just put a second coat of epoxy today and wrapped some glas around the foot and top of this mast.
Attached picture, you also see the yard and a frame.

Regards Ralph

[MiddleAgesMan]

Re: the comments about differences in gunwales, GIS vs. the Seagull pictured above--I may have misunderstood what you meant by "beveled gunwales," but the GIS's gunwales are set square to the side panels, not beveled. There is one incorrect instruction in the plans to run a straight edge across the width of the boat and mark and trim the frames to that line. That would result in "beveled" gunwales relative to the sides. I questioned MIK about this and he noted that elsewhere in the plans are instructions that result in non-beveled gunwales.

In other words, with the GIS sitting level the gunwales on each side slope downward toward the outside--the high point will be along the inside. When sailing heeled over, this gives you a more butt-friendly surface to sit on.

To repeat--the instruction to mark and cut the frame tops level side to side is incorrect.

[Watermaat]

To ad on this; Seagull has more flair in the sides than GIS, so there is more angle in the gunwales too. But as far as I understand, also GIS has gunwales set square to the sides.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I've seen pictures of one (the green one down in Oz?) with gunwales approximately flat across the top. All of the others have them set square or close to square to the sides.

[Boatmik]

Good point Archie. I will check the plans tomorrow.

[woodeneye]

Aah. Thanks guys, you are correct! I see that the plans do indeed show the gunwales perpendicular to the side panels/sheer. :doh:

I ordered my Paulownia from forum member "whitewood" this week. (My first real commitment to my GIS project:U) The Paulownia replaces all the WRC in the plans, but will also use it for the foils. Now just looking for a Hoop pine supplier who charges reasonable prices, otherwise I'll use clear radiata in lieu of Oregon/Douglas fir.

This w/e I'll be moving the big old Merc 280SE (pic below) outside and under a cover to make space. It still is not sold, but too bad the GIS has to commence :(

We had a massive dust storm today. Choking dust everywhere blew in from the outback with very strong winds. Here is a pic I snapped this morning... It was actually darker than the pic suggests due to the camera compensating for the low light, but the street lights stayed on all day

[paulie]

Michael,

After far too long a hiatus (mostly due to having too much consulting work, and I guess it's hard to complain about that in today's economy), I am finally back in the boatbuilding game. I went out to work on my Goat today and immediately ran into a couple of questions:

1) I have filletted (sp?) the seat tops as specified in the plans. Should I also fillet the chine logs and where the frames meet the sides? That does not seem to be stated explicitly. A quick search of the GIS images on Flickr seems to show that some builders do and some don't. Is it just an esthetic choice? Or are there valid reasons to choose one path?

2) My timber for the inwales and their spacer blocks is 45mm wide. The plans say I should draw a line 40mm down from the ply edge. I assumed that the bottom edge of the spacers would be on that line, so I ran packing tape along the line to make cleanup easier. But later, the plans say to place the blocks so they sit about 1mm above the plywood. That would place the bottom of the blocks 4mm down on the tape. Do I move the tape, or will the finished width of the blocks really be closer to 40mm? Will the inwale also end up about 40mm wide?

As you can see, I need more handholding than most GIS builders. This leads me to one suggestion for incorporation in the plans:

It becomes obvious at some point that a backing plate is needed where the rudder gudgeons attach to the transom. Unfortunately, for the less intellectually capable of us, that point comes after the rear seat top has been glued down. :doh: Don't worry, I have some ideas for ways to attach the plate now without cutting open the rear tank. But you might want to add a few words on the issue at the point where the internal tank supports are described, just to help those of us who are more, um, "challenged".

Thanks as always for your help. And I should add that you are now famous in my neighborhood. Every time I open the garage door, some neighbor comments on the beauty of the lines on my GIS, even though it is still only half built. I always give you all the credit.

[Daddles]

After far too long a hiatus (mostly due to having too much consulting work,

What, you expect us to accept that as an excuse? :oo:


1) I have filletted (sp?) the seat tops as specified in the plans. Should I also fillet the chine logs and where the frames meet the sides? That does not seem to be stated explicitly. A quick search of the GIS images on Flickr seems to show that some builders do and some don't. Is it just an esthetic choice? Or are there valid reasons to choose one path?


No mate, you don't have to fillet the chine logs. The chine logs have plenty of gluing surface and actually replace structural fillets.

However, there is an argument that says that water could collect on that join and a fillet will help that water run off. The counter argument is that there won't be very much water and if you've sealed everything properly it doesn't matter. Adding the fillet will add weight (and weight reduction is achieved in small bites) but might also make that area look better.

Have a look at that join line - is there a hollow in the joint? It's easy create one with the point of your scraper when cleaning up the epoxy. If so, go ahead and put in a very small fillet, just to make sure there's no crack/hollow/space for water to sit.

Otherwise, it's a purely aesthetic vs weight decision, a fillet is not needed for strength. It is needed on the seat tops because you're gluing the edge of 6mm ply to the side of the boat and so only have a 6mm gluing surface.



2) My timber for the inwales and their spacer blocks is 45mm wide. The plans say I should draw a line 40mm down from the ply edge. I assumed that the bottom edge of the spacers would be on that line, so I ran packing tape along the line to make cleanup easier. But later, the plans say to place the blocks so they sit about 1mm above the plywood. That would place the bottom of the blocks 4mm down on the tape. Do I move the tape, or will the finished width of the blocks really be closer to 40mm? Will the inwale also end up about 40mm wide?

I can't answer this one accurately because I don't have GIS plans. My guess though, based on the Rowing Skiff, is that you glue the blocks to the line and let them blocks stick up above the side as much as they like - the blocks and the inwale will later be planed down to their final shape and the excess timber is there to give you something to plane off. The 1mm comment is possibly just to ensure that there IS something to plane off.


As you can see, I need more handholding than most GIS builders.

pfft, you need LESS because you're smart enough to ask when you don't understand something. The ones that have trouble are the ones who muddle through and THEN realise they've got a problem.

Richard

[Boatmik]

My timber for the inwales and their spacer blocks is 45mm wide. The plans say I should draw a line 40mm down from the ply edge. I assumed that the bottom edge of the spacers would be on that line, so I ran packing tape along the line to make cleanup easier. But later, the plans say to place the blocks so they sit about 1mm above the plywood. That would place the bottom of the blocks 4mm down on the tape. Do I move the tape, or will the finished width of the blocks really be closer to 40mm? Will the inwale also end up about 40mm wide?.

Hi Paulie,

The inwales are really really strong so you can just set the bottom edge about a millimetre or two above the tape you have put on. They will extend above the side panel ply a bit but that can be planed off later.

MIK

[paulie]

Thank you both for the quick replies. I shall be back in the garage tonight, gluing in spacer blocks.

[woodeneye]

My Paulownia has arrived. A big thank you to forum member "whitewood" who has been most helpful with his advice and making up my order:)
My goodness, this stuff is light weight!:D

I have a great opportunity this weekend to get into the garage and make a start on the foils, at least for one of the days that is.:2tsup:

[Boatmik]

Paulownia is really cool stuff!

MIK

[woodeneye]

Paulownia is really cool stuff!

MIK

As Paulownia is quite soft and easily dented, it occurred to me that the corners of the frames and chine logs could get dented over time with the knocks that will inevitably come from use. Willow is also quite soft and this is why the edges of cricket bats are rolled or burnished, to harden them up to take impacts from cricket balls. I'm wondering if I should do the same with the Paulownia, rather than sand the edges, just burnish them lightly with a hardwood wand?

Or shouldn't I worry because maybe the 3 coats of epoxy will impart plenty of hardness?

The only experience I've had working with soft timber is from my experience with making and repairing cricket bats (Salix alba).

[woodeneye]

I am about to cut the staves for the centreboard, but I just want to check the size to cut them as I obviously don't want to cut them too short.

From the plan on page 63, I interpret the length of the rectangle from which the final centreboard shape is to be cut to be 135+1085=1220mm. During the glue up I want to use equal stave lengths. Is this right?

[Watermaat]

I am about to cut the staves for the centreboard, but I just want to check the size to cut them as I obviously don't want to cut them too short.

From the plan on page 63, I interpret the length of the rectangle from which the final centreboard shape is to be cut to be 135+1085=1220mm. During the glue up I want to use equal stave lengths. Is this right?

NO, please don't cut at that size!
It's a bit confusing in the plan, but these are the shorter 18mm ply sizes.
For the 22mm wooden staves version you need 1265 + 135 = 1400 ( plus some spare length ) It's shown as second measurement on page 63 from the manual.

Good Luck

[woodeneye]

NO, please don't cut at that size!
It's a bit confusing in the plan, but these are the shorter 18mm ply sizes.
For the 22mm wooden staves version you need 1265 + 135 = 1400 ( plus some spare length ) It's shown as second measurement on page 63 from the manual.

Good Luck

Aah thanks Watermaat, my inexperience at interpreting plans is already showing!:doh:

Note to self: Buy Watermaat a beer

[Colin62]

I'm new, and am planning to build a GIS, so I thought I'd introduce myself in this thread, cos it's you guys I'll be bugging when I get my ducks in a row :-)

I'll start with a quick biography - I'm closer to 50 than 40, do some fiddling with computers to bring home the bacon, and have been keen on woodwork for most of my life, although I don't get around to doing it much as I have serious space constraints at home. I'm looking forward to the empty-nest. I haven't sailed before (except a couple of times as a teenager) but have always wanted to have something I could stick on the water and fool around with. I'm South African, and live a few minutes away from Midmar dam in KwaZulu-Natal, and plan to sail there.

The reasons I want to build a GIS are
It's going to be a lot less work than anything else I've looked at
It's a beautiful boat
I like the unconventional
The simplicity of the rigging makes it perfect for dragging off to the dam after work in summer for an hour's sail before dark - assuming the thunder storms stay away.
I like the friendly banter and practical advice on this forum, and love the fact that the guru himself is available to answer both elementary and complex questions

Once I've convince the wife that a GIS is going to be a far better use of our time and money than rebuilding a mirror from scratch, I'll be able to get going. It's going fairly well so far, another couple of days and she'll think it was her idea. The plan is to get afloat by next summer, so we're allowing a year, which is probably a bit ambitious, but we'll just see how it goes.

[arbordg]

Colin,

Welcome. I want to say that you're correct on every point. No boat is "simple" to build, but the GIS is a sterling example of maximum result from minimum inputs. In terms of your schedule, we built ours in 8 months. There were four of us working on it - friend Jerry; my two sons (10 & 15), and I. Except for myself, there was little woodworking experience amongst us. We worked on it just one evening per week (2-3 hours, typically). This was an inefficient way to work, and an inefficient crew, yet the project progressed nicely. I see no reason why you couldn't get yours done in a year, if you work on it consistently.

BTW - one of the boys working on Sisu - our GIS - was my eldest, Colin. He's now 21, and in the U.S. Navy. He'll be home on leave soon, and I'll tell him that there's now another Colin building a Goat :U

Feel free to ask questions as you go along. Mik's plans and instructions are pretty clear, but we all get in a muddle at times. Give a shout when you do.

[woodeneye]

Welcome Colin

I know Midmar very well and sailed many regattas there in Dabchicks, Sprogs and Fireballs. While I was at Natal U in PMB it was many weekends there with the Varsity Sailing Club.

The GIS is an excellent choice for Midmar waters and of course Mick has an agent in South Africa, which you will already know.:;

What timbers are you planning on using?

[StephenR]

Welcome from the other side of the South Atlantic. If you have space constraints and that is an issue with the wife, one of the great things about the GIS is that you can build a whole big pile of bits before you have to start sticking things together to make the hull. Try that out on her. By the time the hull starts to emerge (it is a bit longer than a Mirror...... ) it will be too late for her to complain.

Good luck!

Steve

[Watermaat]

Hi Colin,
Another welcome from another GIS builder in the Netherlands.
GIS is and excellent choice. I picked the design because of simplicity and very well thought details. I made my final choice after I became aware that a fellow Dutchman (Joost) had sailed GIS in the Caledonian Rail with great succes. This means you can sail GIS in difficult circumstances against any high reputation design.
I have sailed GIS once with Joost in light winds and it is a very nice boat that certainly feels bigger than f.e. your mirror. Big enough to have a nice sail together with your wife, with a few comfortable places to sit down and enjoy sailing.

I also started with smaller parts, spars,oars and frames and go 3D after I finish those.
Saves lots of space and after finishing the hull you are ready to sail. "less work" is true, but don't underestimate the amount of hours sanding, coating and varnishing to get a real nice finish...but being experienced in woodworking you probably know that. GIS certainly deserves a great finish, it's a very practical boat but also has the good looks!

Good Luck
Ralph

[Boatmik]

Hi Ralph .. do you want to put the nice comments that Mike McNamara (the UK racing sailmaker) sent you up here. He allowed us to make them public.

MIK

[Watermaat]

Hi Ralph .. do you want to put the nice comments that Mike McNamara (the UK racing sailmaker) sent you up here. He allowed us to make them public.

MIK

Okay MIK,

I have recently ordered my new GIS sail at McNamara sails in the UK Mike McNamara Sails - Simply The Best (http://www.mcnamara-sails.co.uk/) .
Through internet I found out that Michael McNamara made a beautifull sail for Richard Harvey's GIS "Blanche" 119351 119352 . There is also a nice slide-show about building this GIS at BananAlbum (http://www.yvsc.co.uk/goatislandskiffslideshow/index.html) .

Michael McNamara send me a nice mail about his experience sailing this GIS:
"
Ralph, I had a nice long sail in Richard`s Goat Island Skiff today and had a
lovely sail. He has made a great job of the boat and it went like a dream.
I was very impressed with how simple the controls were and how quickly the
boat went. It was also beautifully balanced.
As you could expect the boat felt better when it was slightly heeled when
beating. Off wind it felt fast but didn’t create a planning sort of
wash...it just went faster and faster. When tacking I found that I had to be
quite forceful in pushing it into the wind and it was definitely better to
"roll" it coming out of the tack.
I'm glad that I did have a sail because I found that I need to modify the
sail slightly to give more fullness at the head. The gaff bent more than I
had anticipated.
I will now get started on your sail and be in touch soon. Hope that is ok.
Best Wishes,
Michael. "

Nice comment from an experienced dinghy sailmaker.... and where do you find a sailmaker who tests his own made sails to get you an even better one :o
He will make a loose-footed version of this sail for me and I am really looking forward receiving his sail and getting my GIS afloat asap.

[CCBB]

That sail has roach! And leech battens to support it! Nice shot with the heeling...shows the modest but sweet sheer.

Ralph, Would the sailmaker be able to make more comments about adding the roach and battens and his reasoning for doing so. I'd also be interested in his opinion on the spar bend.

[paulie]

Here's a bit of advice:

Let's say that you've been working on your Goat all afternoon and have a few bits epoxied and curing. But the weather has turned unseasonably cold and you are worried that your unheated, uninsulated boat shed (garage) will not be warm enough to keep the chemical reactions moving along. What to do?

Brew a batch of beer in the boat shed, of course! A robust porter will do nicely, the kind which kept factory workers well-fueled at the height of the Industrial Revolution. A good beer for the cold weather to come. And not many left in the fridge. Pour one from the last batch for inspiration.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs263.snc1/9034_1182853486099_1071066480_30521607_7854539_n.jpg

Fire up the kettles. A couple of hours mashing

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs263.snc1/9034_1182853406097_1071066480_30521605_5271486_n.jpg

and boiling

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs263.snc1/9034_1182853446098_1071066480_30521606_1855261_n.jpg

keeps the shed warm enough until the epoxy is well on its way.

The beer produced is strictly a by-product. "Really, honey. I had to keep the garage warm...."

What? Yes, there is the potential for a sticky black boilover right near the spar lumber. No guts, no glory!

[BobWes]

Well, now... that is the way to build a boat! :)

Last weekend I had the pleasure of sampling my brother's home brewed beer - and I was pleasantly surprised. I liked it! Makes me wonder if I shouldn't brew my own.

Bob

[paulie]

It is an underappreciated selling point of the Goat that you can build one in a 1-car garage and still have enough room left over to brew beer. I don't know why Michael doesn't have that on his web site somewhere.

Alas, keeping my Goat warm last night proved unexpectedly costly.

Like many cheap -- I mean "eco-friendly" -- men around here, I believe that there is absolutely no reason to turn on the furnace before Nov 1 each year. My wife and children have the silly idea that the outdoor temperature -- in particular, the abnormally early frosts we've been having -- are somehow relevant to the discussion.

I came in after brewing last night to find the rest of the family watching TV with the furnace roaring away. As I reached for the thermostat, I heard, "Don't you dare try to tell me that you'll keep that boat warm but not your family!" I was all prepared to deliver a lecture on the differences between warm-blooded mammals and inanimate objects and the ease with which we can put on more sweaters, etc. But the looks directed at me from the couch let me know that I'd lost before I started. I know when I'm beat. Head down, I slunk off to the shower.

Luckily, I think the Goat will be worth it in the end. :U

[m2c1Iw]

Here's a bit of advice:


Gratefully accepted, trouble is we are moving into summer so I will turn on the shed fridge to keep the beer cool along with SWMBOs giggle juice. :D

[Colin62]

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome.

@ woodeneye - I'm not sure what timber to use - the local agent (who is quite a distance away) said meranti would be suitable. Our local pine is notorious for being weak and distorting, so that's out. I'll have to visit some timber yards and see what they can get and at what price - meranti will be OK for most of the construction I suspect, but I might try to get something more suitable for the spars.

Unfortunately my knowledge of timber is mostly restricted to stuff that is good for turning, not boat building.

Any suggestions will be welcome...

Colin

[paulie]

Gratefully accepted, trouble is we are moving into summer so I will turn on the shed fridge to keep the beer cool along with SWMBOs giggle juice. :D

Yes, all you "upside-down" people will have to hold onto that tip for 6 months. :U

[Watermaat]

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome.

@ woodeneye - I'm not sure what timber to use - the local agent (who is quite a distance away) said meranti would be suitable. Our local pine is notorious for being weak and distorting, so that's out. I'll have to visit some timber yards and see what they can get and at what price - meranti will be OK for most of the construction I suspect, but I might try to get something more suitable for the spars.

Unfortunately my knowledge of timber is mostly restricted to stuff that is good for turning, not boat building.

Any suggestions will be welcome...

Colin

Hi Colin,

Meranti could be quite heavy, but there is some variation. Pick the lighter coulor since these are the lightest parts. Feel en check the planks before you buy.
You defenitely should not take meranti for spars, it's too brittle and heavy for that.

Good luck

[woodeneye]

Hi Colin, as Watermaat has said, Meranti varies considerably, from extemely light to really dense and heavy. We built Dabchicks down to minimum weight using meranti that my dad hand picked, so as long as you can do that, meranti is a good choice as it's nice and stable. The light weight stuff is also light in colour.

Jelutong also used to be in plentiful supply in South Africa, and this is also light in weight if you can get it.

Is Bruynzeels still there? If so they used to sell the best Okoume ply.

[CCBB]

That sail has roach! And leech battens to support it! Nice shot with the heeling...shows the modest but sweet sheer.

Ralph, Would the sailmaker be able to make more comments about adding the roach and battens and his reasoning for doing so. I'd also be interested in his opinion on the spar bend.

Ralph, Are you in contact with the sailmaker. I could contact him, too. Wanted to run the above questions by you first.

Clint

[Watermaat]

Ralph, Are you in contact with the sailmaker. I could contact him, too. Wanted to run the above questions by you first.

Clint

Hi Clint,

I forwarded your question to him and asked him if he would participate in this forum. It's probably valuable information for everybody.
You could also ask him directly [email protected] .

I like his sail because of sufficient "build-in" profile ( curved panels and seams ) , roach and battens to stabilize and keep this section flat and lower set of reefs. I ordered a version that could be set loose-footed on a stiffer boom. Al together a "power package" comparing to standard sails. I like this because of my racing background; get the max out of existing surface. This will probably be benificial in light weather, but I am not shure GIS will need this cruising in normal conditions. I think it's VERY worth to have the best sail on any design, it's THE mayor factor in performance on a given design.

Regards
Ralph

[woodeneye]

That sail has roach! And leech battens to support it! Nice shot with the heeling...shows the modest but sweet sheer.

Ralph, Would the sailmaker be able to make more comments about adding the roach and battens and his reasoning for doing so. I'd also be interested in his opinion on the spar bend.

Hi guys,
I've commented previously on this sail somewhere but I'm not convinced that it has any any roach built into it at all. The very insignificant amount it shows in the picture could be due to the significant bend in the yard which is due to a fair amount of downhaul? The generous cut may be contributing to the illusion as the fullness has to go somewhere when vanged down hard.

When you think about it, the balanced lug is already approaching similarity in shape to the latest sail designs we see on ocean racers nowadays, with the big square cut at the masthead supported by a massively stiff full length batten. This batten is equivalent to the yard on our lug rigs, so they are copying the lug's design to a degree! Maybe one day they will attach a yard to push out the roach as far as possible and things will have gone full circle!

I recall Mick mentioning that he found that the full length battens on Midges sail affected performance too much so he leaves them out. Controlling sail shape with full length battens involves an awful lot of trial and error to get a decent sail shape compromise for most wind conditions. For the goat, better I think to just have a couple of leech battens to control the sail shape as is evidenced my that great looking McNamara sail. :U

[Boatmik]

Or the Good Looking battenless/roachless sail made for Biting Midges "Gruff".

[Watermaat]

That sail has roach! And leech battens to support it! Nice shot with the heeling...shows the modest but sweet sheer.

Ralph, Would the sailmaker be able to make more comments about adding the roach and battens and his reasoning for doing so. I'd also be interested in his opinion on the spar bend.

I got the answer from Michael McNamara
"
Good question Ralph. As you can see from the enclosed photograph the roach
is not large but together with the battens has a profound effect on the
sails performance.
The purpose of the battens is to straighten out the exit to the sail because
as a racing sailor I hate to see a hooked leech. An over tight or hooked
leech not only stops the air escaping easily but also has the effect of
moving the centre of effort aft. If the flow is too far aft the boat heels
too much and develops weather helm (ie the boat wants to luff into wind)
The purpose of the positive round to the roach is to help the sail "blade
out" as the wind gets up. By that I mean the leech will actually open up and
twist away slightly. This reduces the curve the air has to go round and
helps to reduce heeling.
As a Finn sailor you will be familiar with this. I am sure that you will
remember in windy weather having to really pull on the vang and tension the
Cunningham to flatten out the sail. The aim when doing this is to make the
sail leech become almost self controlled as it "opens" in the gusts and
"closes" in the lulls. Thus making the boat not only easier to sail but
nicer too.....
I measured Richards gaff bend. He has made the spars to the specification
given by Michael. What was interesting was that we could not put on the same
amount of weight as you used. We ended up with approximately 11 kilos
positioned at the halliard block which gave 43mm deflection. This means that
his spars are a lot more flexible that yours. I have increased the positive
round to the head of his sail but he has not managed to sail with it yet.
With your stiffer spar I have decided to keep to the original curve."

FYI, I made my gaff from fir and slightly heavier as designed. I send Michael McNamara a measurement, with 25kg in the middle between two workhorses it gives a 5 cm curve.
He checked Richards gaff to compare. I wait untill I have his sail, perhaps I need to plane my gaff down a bit to match.
For the rest I totally agree with his thoughts on roach and battens..............
MIK perhaps we have to agree that we disagree in this :U

[CCBB]

Man, he makes a beautiful sail. He knows more than me, so I trust his reasoning on the roach. But I also agree with Mik's that it is not totally necessary and a simpler, less expensive sail can be made with a straight leech. Traditional sails even have a hollow leech, without battens.

Cheers,
Clint