Biggest venture yet

[Fumbler]

I am about to embark on my biggest venture yet, a large natural edge Red Mallee burl bowl, fresh from the Wood show last weekend. I might take it and do it at my turning club so that I have advice whilst turning, and they have bigger lathes with greater swings that I have and as its a beautiful piece of timber I want to maximise its size. ie I don't want to cut in half to fit my lathe.

i am going to flatten the base first on the jointer, then flatten the spikes about 100mm round in the centre to screw the face plate to, my biggest concern however is switch mounting, which is safest, cutting a mortise for the jaws to open out into, or a foot for them to clamp down onto? or are both as safe as each other?

thanks in advance, not fussed wither way as I will go with design flow during turning

[Gary H]

My preference is for the spigot, as I am much happier clamping it to squeeze the timber together rather than the expansion where the forces would be trying to push it apart. Quite often I flatten the bottom and then turn a groove which can be used for either way of holding. There is no protruding spigot to be removed, and a couple more grooves makes it all appear part of the design :D. Good luck with your venture - look forward to seeing the finished product, or better still work in progress shots.

Cheers, Gary

[NeilS]

With very heavy/large blanks I screw those to a faceplate or ring and turn outside first.

Then move to jaws for holding the outside while turning inside.

The jaw size is an important factor.

I use the 1/3 ratio; making the foot at least one third the diameter of the piece.

If the foot diameter is too small for the piece it can twist off, even if held by the jaws in contraction mode.



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[orraloon]

I have the same dilemma. A nice burl thats too big for my lathe and would be a shame to cut up and loose some of the nice pattern. Since it is only 2 days off the tree I have plenty time to think about it. Anyhow think I will get a big chuck at least.
Regards
John

[turnerted]

Fumbler
I turn it the same as Neils describes .I normally reshape the tenon to become the foot .
orraloon
For a burl like this , I normally cut a slice off the flat side with a chainsaw so the remaining cone is small enough to fit on the lathe . I have a jig that holds the burl on it's edge to facilitate this ,but you should be able to chock it up some way to saw it safely . The slice you cut off can be used for several small bowls .
Ted

[orraloon]

Yes I been thinking of something like that. I am thinking of the top slice as a side table top. Do you gauge a line to guide the chainsaw? I don't want to waste more than I have to. Posted some pics in the Woodwork General section by the way.
I have turned some small dry burls before but this is to good looking to stuff up and I realise I am a bit under tooled at the moment.
Regards
John

[turnerted]

John
I've only done this about three or four times but I think I just measured down from the top face in a few places and eyeballed it .I have found it's best to cut as much as possible in the one direction . If you have to come in from the other side ,make sure you can get your cutter bar well into the slot to keep cutting in the same plane .
Ted

[Fumbler]

So here is the burl before being cut (although it was already cut, I pieced it back together for the pics)

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Here it is after running through the bandsaw and then turning on edge to slice a parallel flat surface for the face plate.

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And now with face plate just before screwing on, using 10g x 50mm screws.

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My eyes were actually playing tricks on me and the block was smaller than I thought, so after some careful deliberation I managed to get a decent meaty 220mm diameter block. So I can leave chucked up at home, now I just have to think about the style and shape after I true it up of course. Off to the grinder now, and knowing this stuff will leave set up behind me, turn, then turn to grind, then turn. My hips will definitely get a work out.

[hughie]

For me which ever is the top side or opening to that I screw a hard wood block. I have a couple made up 3,4 screws that match my chuck jaws and from there I will turn the outside including the foot that will match one of my chucks. I will turn it to the point the first coat of finish. Then reverse it and do the inside and fully finish it, before going back to the outside.

[Fumbler]

So turned round, trued up the base. Now got to think about design. She's dancing a bit due to the bulk on one edge, but it will settle down one I get the guts out. I might bring the tail stock up and leave a post in the centre for safety sake.

i used my home made carbide tipped easy rougher and shaping bits. Easy peasy.

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Great finish straight iff the tool too.

[Fumbler]

So here is is currently, and the wife likes it as it will be deep and usable. And I'm thinking that I might loose to much inside if if I curl in anymore.

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Here is my proposed idea.

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I would like people's opinions, I'm now tending to go with the proposed idea. And before I go turning any more off, I'll stop and gather some thoughts from you all.

[Gary H]

Now you can "knuckle down and wrap it up"! After my first attempt at this style I had band-aids on every knuckle on one hand.:D. But it was worth it.

[NeilS]

I would like people's opinions, I'm now tending to go with the proposed idea. And before I go turning any more off, I'll stop and gather some thoughts from you all.

If I was handed what you have now as a blank I would turn it into two nice shaped bowls. Part the top one off along the line of the arrows and go on from there.


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Your wife won't get a deep bowl out of it, but two nice shaped usable ones. If you do stay with one deep piece, the second design works better to my eye, the first being what I would call a dog bowl shape. Not a shape that will go well in an exhibition, although probably pleasant enough to the eye of a dog... : ~}

PS - if you would like to turn some deep bowls, perhaps select some blank that are better optimised for that. Burls are typically turned into platter shapes and the like to best display their unique grain patterns and colours. Much of that will be hidden inside a deep bowl.

You asked, so I've given my honest opinion. No offence intended...:)

[Fumbler]

NeilS, that's exactly what I was looking for, recommendations, and thank you, no offence was taken. And after looking at it some more it looks more like an army stew pot that's been chewed at the top by the dog!! Haha.

its going to the sister in law in U.K. So I think the second option will be the go, and even though with it deep it may lose something, there will be more to see on the outside, kind of drawing your eyes to it. Knowing the SIL, it'll probably be kept by the front door for her house keys!!

[Fumbler]

Apart from NeilS, the rest of you are too slow at replying, so I went ahead with option 2. And glad I did, now comes the slow part of sanding. Power sander me thinks.

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So so I don't want to hear anyone say they preferred the chewed army pot!! Hahahaha

[Fumbler]

Got a bit further today, I sanded and turned it round in the chuck. Now starting to hollow out the centre. And also try and thin the walls out a bit as currently about 8mm.

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[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Looking good. That's a much more pleasing form. :2tsup:

[Fumbler]

Looking good. That's a much more pleasing form. :2tsup:

Cheers Skew, now that the big knob throwing off centre has been trimmed, I can pick the speed up a bit more, it's damn cite more balanced. I probably should've thinned out before I removed the bulk as it would've had some support. I'll just take light cuts and thin down to about 4mm.

[Nubsnstubs]

Got a bit further today, I sanded and turned it round in the chuck. Now starting to hollow out the centre. And also try and thin the walls out a bit as currently about 8mm.

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Looking at picture #1, if you haven't already proceeded and removed the center, do what Niels suggested and use it for a lid with a knob. I've done one like that, and the lid sitting inside the form would look good. ............... Jerry (in Tucson)USA

[Fumbler]

Looking at picture #1, if you haven't already proceeded and removed the center, do what Niels suggested and use it for a lid with a knob. I've done one like that, and the lid sitting inside the form would look good. ............... Jerry (in Tucson)USA

Jerry, that's a great idea, and no I haven't removed it yet, only one problem, I don't have any bowl saver gear to be able to cut the lid out. Any recommendations as to how I might do it with out the bowl saver?

[NeilS]

Without corers, I would attempt to use my diamond profile parting tool (Sorby) to core out a shallow cone. The diamond profile is less prone to binding. I would still open the width of the cut just a little bit, mainly to help with clearing the shavings.

It would be more challenging with a square profile parting tool, but still worth a go.

Looking at your last photo, if cored out in this way, the lid would sit well down into the form, but that could look good. If not, you don't have to use it.

And, if the lid idea doesn't work out, your main form will be none the worse for the attempt.

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[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Without corers, I would attempt to use my diamond profile parting tool (Sorby) to core out a shallow cone. The diamond profile is less prone to binding. I would still open the width of the cut just a little bit, mainly to help with clearing the shavings.

It would be more challenging with a square profile parting tool, but still worth a go.

:yes: Obviously you need a parting tool that has some length to the 'blade' but, more importantly, you should re-handle it with something more substantial than the handle typically provided. The one I use for this sort of thing (5mm square HSS profile) has a 30" handle. A bit of overkill, perhaps, but gives far better control and catches aren't anywhere near as damaging to me. ;)

I always do two plunges side-by-side to give the tool clearance and minimise catches, regardless of whether using diamond- or square-profile. It wastes a bit more wood, making the kerf larger, but I'm attached to my fingers and intend to keep 'em all as long as possible...

[Nubsnstubs]

Jerry, that's a great idea, and no I haven't removed it yet, only one problem, I don't have any bowl saver gear to be able to cut the lid out. Any recommendations as to how I might do it with out the bowl saver?

Do what Neils suggests. I would keep my tool as close to the inside edge and keep the angle the same as the flare. Bring your tool rest up to the front of the piece. Lay your tool on it to visualize the angle you need going in, keeping the tool handle from hitting the side. It looks like the piece is plenty tall, so going through the bottom is not an issue. Keep the tail stock in position until you think you are within 1/4"-6mm from parting off. You can either break off the piece, or finish cutting it. Back off the tail stock one turn, and cut until it starts to wobble. Pull the TS away, and remove the piece.

At this point, I would remove the main form from the chuck and work on the lid. Looks like you already have a tenon, so you are in good shape. Detail it for the fit and shape you think looks good. It can be a domed lid, or somewhat flat. The tenon will become the knob after you have the bowl and lid fitted. Make sure you hollow out the inside also. That just makes lidded items so much more attractive. When satisfied, remove it from the TS and reinstall the bowl. Start by fitting the lid. When you have a good fit, then start hogging out the innards.

When satisfied with the inside, put the lid on the form while still chucked, bring up your tail stock, mount the lid, and finish off the knob as desired...That's one way of doing it.

Second option. If you want a higher dome, after you have the lid domed and hollowed to your satisfaction, drill through it and make a finial type knob to fit the drilled hole. Either way, it's going to look good........ Jerry (in Tucson)USA

[NeilS]

:yes: Obviously you need a parting tool that has some length to the 'blade' but, more importantly, you should re-handle it with something more substantial than the handle typically provided. The one I use for this sort of thing (5mm square HSS profile) has a 30" handle. A bit of overkill, perhaps, but gives far better control and catches aren't anywhere near as damaging to me. ;)

I always do two plunges side-by-side to give the tool clearance and minimise catches, regardless of whether using diamond- or square-profile. It wastes a bit more wood, making the kerf larger, but I'm attached to my fingers and intend to keep 'em all as long as possible...

All very good additional advice from Andy.

Most parting tools have handle lengths suitable for spindle turning and shallow plunge cuts. As Andy points out, when used for deep plunging cuts you need a handle that is proportional to the depth of the cut.

I use a ratio of about 2-1/2 times the length of the exposed blade for the handle lengths on my bowl tools. Longer than many turners, but I find the leverage provided by that length less tiring and I can't remember the last time a tool got away from me, although I very occasionally I hoik a blank or half completed piece out of the grip of the jaws if I have gone in a bit too hard or a bit too shallow with a tenon or dovetail recess.

There would be no disadvantage in starting with Andy's 30" handle length to begin with. You can always cut a bit off later if you find it is too long for you, but harder to add a bit extra if you find that necessary. A decent ferrule is also important.

You will also need quite a long parting blade length to allow you to work with your fingers out of the reach of the high points on your natural edge... !

I should have also included the point that Jerry makes about forming the tenon recess for you chuck jaws ready for gripping before the lid blank separates.

[Fumbler]

NeilS, Skew, Nubs,

thank you you for the advice and I'm sorry to say the lid thing ain't going to work out as I keep trying to dig in to get to where the faceplate screw holes stop and it's getting smaller and smaller, so I may leave for the next project.

i also had noticed that the weight of the bulb bit had thrown things out a touch, so the walls on one side were thicker than the other (after turning around to mount the scold chuck) I then began to true up the outside, luckily to a satisfactory result, although it was looking shaky for a while, I kept getting small catches.

the walls are now 4mm thick and am semi-happy with the result, a bit of sanding should finish the rest, as I'm too scared to thin out any further.

there are also quite a few cracks developing near the base so I might get the old CA into them.

can anyone suggest a finish for this? I was thinking danish oil as don't want to use friction polish yet don't want to darken the timber too much?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

the walls are now 4mm thick and am semi-happy with the result, a bit of sanding should finish the rest, as I'm too scared to thin out any further.

4mm? That's a respectable accomplishment on a piece like this, even if it's going to take a bit of sanding to clean up properly. I'd be happy with it. :2tsup:


can anyone suggest a finish for this? I was thinking danish oil as don't want to use friction polish yet don't want to darken the timber too much?

Me, I like DO for this sort of thing. Either that or a blonde shellac.

For applying friction finishes off the lathe I have some linen socks which fit over lambswool buffing pads. One set up for a 4" angle-grinder, one for a 1 1/2" pad on a 'leccy drill to get into tighter spaces. The drill one isn't as effective, taking more elbow grease, as it doesn't have the RPM of the angle-grinder but it certainly beats trying to hand-rub a friction polish and sometimes that is the finish you want...

[Fumbler]

Cheers Skew Do or clear Shellac was what I was thinking. No hard rubbing needed on something brittle and awkwardly shaped. I keep going back and trying to touch up but end up doing more damage so as it's respectable at moment, I'm just going to sand and leave the outside alone now. I love and I hate burl.

I went to take photo to show the screw holes this morning but my phone died. So I kept going, here is current status.

[UPO]

Hi Fumbler, looks good and very interesting for me as I have several Mallee burls on the shelf and have been stalling with what to do. If you want to use the lid idea how anout turning an internal shelf from say mulga to suppory the lid fairly high up, no need for the lid to reach right out to the side wall, this gives more vision to the contrasting rim material. Enjoyed the detail you have posted. Have you any radius square carbide ? They are "softer" in the touch when hollowing an as the actual corners are off the surface less open to leave tool marks. Regds Richard.

[Fumbler]

Hi Fumbler, looks good and very interesting for me as I have several Mallee burls on the shelf and have been stalling with what to do. If you want to use the lid idea how anout turning an internal shelf from say mulga to suppory the lid fairly high up, no need for the lid to reach right out to the side wall, this gives more vision to the contrasting rim material. Enjoyed the detail you have posted. Have you any radius square carbide ? They are "softer" in the touch when hollowing an as the actual corners are off the surface less open to leave tool marks. Regds Richard.

Richard, i hadn't thought about that, but thinking along those lines, i could glue the cut out to a darker timber ad turn own to create a rim. Not a bad idea.(if that's what you were eluding to). No just the square cutter im afraid, but I may invest in a radius as you so point out the corners don't grab. I have been hollowing out the centre with the round shaper but will have to swap out very shortly.

These are the 3 I made (and yes I have posted several time) as I like showing my hand polished Stainless handiwork.

[Fumbler]

Almost there, I have finished hollowing out and given a sand up to 150 but it needs more. And I think she hay still have been wet and not fully dry fight in the middle, so not sure how long it had been cut for. It just seems I sand the neck, she's nice and smooth then next morning small cracks are appearing. Might have to get a finish on it soon.

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Let's try that again
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Thats better, now inside.
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[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

It's also possible the cracks are from oversanding. As with the actual cutting, anything that generates heat can cause microfractures to show overnight.

Although it's tempting to get "stuck in" with the grits, lots of light, intermittent applications is kinder to the wood. Especially burl.

[Fumbler]

It's also possible the cracks are from oversanding. As with the actual cutting, anything that generates heat can cause microfractures to show overnight.

Although it's tempting to get "stuck in" with the grits, lots of light, intermittent applications is kinder to the wood. Especially burl.

That'd be it...... me oversanding. I will try lightly this time and see how we go, cheers Skew.