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doug the slug
28th October 2005, 03:46 PM
I am contemplating my next toy purchase, something to handle dovetailing for the builtins in the bedrooms and kitchen and a few freestanding items. something that can speed up manufacture of little boxes would also be useful.

At this stage the frontrunners are the woodrat and the leigh dovetail jig, but that may change as i learn more about them.

as i see it, the woodrat is more versatile, but fixing it to a wall isnt my style, i like a portable workshop. the leigh jig is more portable but apparrently cant do all that the woodrat can.

It seems that while dovetailing jigs are cheaper than the 'rat, they are a bit like triton, you keep having to add on extra bits to increase the capability, and the overaqll cost by the time it does all you want may be far above teh 'rat.

anyway, thats what im thinking about, any comments or opinions would be much appreciated

Sprog
28th October 2005, 07:07 PM
You could build a stand for the Woodrat :D

Another toy, oops tool, to consider is the Incra jig, not just for joints also for very accurate repeatable positioning :D :D

NewLou
28th October 2005, 07:34 PM
Yup I had much the same thoughts!!!

FWIW I went with the WoodRat.........Once I work out how to use it I'll do an In depth Review & How to!!!

REgards lou

Sprog
28th October 2005, 07:39 PM
FWIW I went with the WoodRat.........Once I work out how to use it I'll do an In depth Review & How to!!!

REgards lou

Isn't there a "how to" video available for the woodrat?

Auld Bassoon
28th October 2005, 07:40 PM
Yep, a video or DVD - but it's really more of a demo that a true tutorial. It does help, though.

Cheers!

Sprog
28th October 2005, 07:42 PM
Ah, OK.

doug the slug
28th October 2005, 09:30 PM
You could build a stand for the Woodrat :D



the pdf brochure i downloaded actually suggests mounting it on a substantial board and clamping it in supa-jaws as an option for portability but you would probably need 2 x supajaws so theres another $400 on the tool budget

Paddy
29th October 2005, 06:10 PM
Hi Doug.

Someone in this forum put me onto a site that gives a full evaluation of the wood rat, including assembly etc.

Worth a look www.woodshopdemos.com/wr-1.htm (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/wr-1.htm)

paddy

derekcohen
29th October 2005, 07:02 PM
Doug

The Woodrat seems much more versatile and the one I'd purchase (if I were inclined). The demo I attended the other day used a frame made from 2x4's and this was just clamped to a benchtop. Clearly designed to be portable.

Hated the noise and dust.

Regards from Perth

Derek

TritonJapan
31st October 2005, 09:51 PM
Doug,

I have a full set of the Givkins Dovetail Jig and am pretty pleased with it. The video that came with it and the manual are both excellent. Roger is an exceptionally gifted woodworker, and a fairly nice bloke to boot.

Enough of that though.

I bought the Givkins as it seems to work well with the Triton.

It is very portable.

Once you set it up, it is easy to use. The setting revolves around adjusting the number of packing shims behind one of the fences. Once this is done, it is similar to the finger jointer in the sense that the height of the router bits is not critical, just effects how much the tails and pins stick out. Once set, you don't need to set it again. Some dovetail jigs rely on the height of the bits for the tightness of their fit. I have heard that this can be a tad tricky.

You can end up spending a bit of money if you buy all of the templates and bits. I did, and though have not used many of them I like having them there anyway.

The Givkins jig does not do half blind dovetails, though Roger has some good examples of where he has glued a front onto carcases made with through dovetails.

My 2 cents worth.

Steve

Just George
31st October 2005, 10:03 PM
It's actually Gifkins http://www.gifkins.com.au/ I have 2 of them with a 3rd template. It works really well, and as pointed out it doesn't do blind dovetails but that's not the end of the world.
Woody

Gumby
31st October 2005, 10:05 PM
I can't work out the advantage of having two. Please explain :confused:

rick_rine
31st October 2005, 10:11 PM
Maybe he doesn't have to swap the template over ? One of my concerns is that if you swap and change between a and b template maybe you could ruin the grip . Why does it not have thread inserts to prevent this . Seems a simple solution but I've only just started to explore mine .

Regards Rick

TritonJapan
31st October 2005, 11:24 PM
Same reason a dog licks where it does. Because he can!

doug the slug
1st November 2005, 12:28 AM
Same reason a dog licks where it does. Because he can!
looks like a woodrat for me then cos i just arent that flexiblehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

scooter
1st November 2005, 07:56 PM
Doug, the Gifkins style of through dovetail jigs are probably the simplest way of cutting dovetails with a machine there is.

The woodrat is obviously a vastly different beast, but look at it this way, if you get a rat you could use it to make yourself through dovetail templates & make a jig similar to the Gifkins anyway!


Good luck either way..........those rats look involved but fun..........cheers.........Sean

MICKYG
1st November 2005, 08:13 PM
Just a note, the higher you mount your "rat" the longer the piece of wood you can cut a tenon on to its vertical end. A platform may be benifical to work on allowing you to work a longer vertical piece of timber. This is an observation on my part.

Regards Mike :D ;)

doug the slug
6th November 2005, 09:59 PM
Just a note, the higher you mount your "rat" the longer the piece of wood you can cut a tenon on to its vertical end. A platform may be benifical to work on allowing you to work a longer vertical piece of timber. This is an observation on my part.


Regards Mike :D ;)

that is a good point mike, but one that hasnt escaped me either. my workshop is currently on a 3m high verandah while im doing the bedroom and kitchen builtins, with whatever i choose (woodrat or dovetail jig). verandah will probably need new floor anyway so if i need to cut a hole in it to tennon long pieces thats not a worryhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif. and if it happens that a bench is longer than that i can cut the tennon on the triton in tablesaw mode

BarryBurgess
21st November 2005, 05:39 PM
looks like a woodrat for me then cos i just arent that flexiblehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
Sorry for the late responce. I have also been looking at the woodrat but have been unable to find a good demonstration. Went to a show where Woodrat had a stand but the demonstrator did not have a clue and was talking rather than demonstrating. The owner of Woodrat was there but was talking and showing their new templates(protype) - the equivelent to pin routing. I bought the DVD but it is more of a sales tool than how to use the Woodrat. I think I will have to find a good user to go for a demo. The only thing worrying me is the number of Rat users that are now selling their Rats and the number not been used.
The little Rat is limited expecially on dovetails so I am told. The Rat is selling here for £475 without any of the add ons.

doug the slug
21st November 2005, 09:56 PM
The only thing worrying me is the number of Rat users that are now selling their Rats and the number not been used.

that is something ive thought about too Barry, the instruction manual is about 140 pages long. it might be too complicated for many weekenders. im still looking into it, and i wont buy it till ive seen it working.

oh and btw, where you quoted me above as:


looks like a woodrat for me then cos i just arent that flexible
it wasnt a decision on my part but a humourous reply to tritonjapans quip about where dogs lickhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

BarryBurgess
22nd November 2005, 12:01 AM
Doug
I got the 81 page version of the manual from the web site - where did you get the 140 page version?
Thanks
Barry

doug the slug
22nd November 2005, 09:07 PM
from the website too Barry, probably the same one, maybe i dont remember teh page count accurately or maybe software releases in different countries paginate it differentlyhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

Interwood
22nd November 2005, 11:30 PM
I've been wondering for ages how you do a through dovetail with an Incra jig. Now I know, (thanks to the latest Timbecon Chatterbox newsletter) ... you use the Incra Jig and then ... 'you grab a bevel edge chisel and follow the profile made by the last cut down to the bottom of the dovetail'. So that's how it's done!!

With the Gifkin's jigs, no chisel required and very detailed manual of ... 25 pages. Best purchase I have ever made. The only thing in my workshop that has been used almost every weekend for 15 months now. Simple, repeatable and accurate. I feel good using it.

Interwood

Shedhand
23rd November 2005, 12:00 AM
I've been wondering for ages how you do a through dovetail with an Incra jig. Now I know, (thanks to the latest Timbecon Chatterbox newsletter) ... you use the Incra Jig and then ... 'you grab a bevel edge chisel and follow the profile made by the last cut down to the bottom of the dovetail'. So that's how it's done!!

With the Gifkin's jigs, no chisel required and very detailed manual of ... 25 pages. Best purchase I have ever made. The only thing in my workshop that has been used almost every weekend for 15 months now. Simple, repeatable and accurate. I feel good using it.

Interwood
I just finished making a loose lid box (from a Gifkins plan) for my new Gifkins Jig. Tas Oak, Myrtle and King Billy Pine. Finished with Tung Oil. What a brilliant tool. I'll post a pic of my new dovetailed box if anyone is interested.
:)

Termite
23rd November 2005, 07:16 AM
I've been wondering for ages how you do a through dovetail with an Incra jig. Now I know, (thanks to the latest Timbecon Chatterbox newsletter) ... you use the Incra Jig and then ... 'you grab a bevel edge chisel and follow the profile made by the last cut down to the bottom of the dovetail'. So that's how it's done!!Interwood

Minimal timber to remove, about as big as half a match head, I use a stanley knife.

scooter
23rd November 2005, 10:05 AM
Woodshopdemos.com or whatever it's called explains and shows pics of how the incra does through dovetails, clever & precise, not as simple as the Gifkins though.


Cheers..........Sean

growl
6th December 2005, 02:05 PM
Doug,

I have both the Gifkins and the Leigh and found them both excellent.

I bought the Gifkins first to make small boxes and drawers. I love using it for the simplicity.

I later had the chance to buy the Leigh D24 from a neighbour who was selling all his stuff due to illness. It is an excellent tool which can handle larger dovetailing requirements (up to about 600mm, good for carcasses), variable spaced dovetails and blind dovetails. Excellent versatility. It cannot though do small dovetails like the Gifkins. I think the minimum spacing on the Gifkins A10 is 20mm pitch. The Leigh is about 28mm from memory.

Both have excellent manuals that are clear and easy to understand.

If I had to buy just one having used both a lot I would proably buy just the Leigh and forgo the smaller dovetails.

If you bought all the Gifkins jigs and templates you would have spent as much on them as the Leigh but with more versatility with the Leigh.

Second thoughts I think I would again buy the other just to be able to small dovetailed boxes which I love making.

Just my 2.2c worth. Don't know about the Rat though as it looks complicated.

Regards

Growl

doug the slug
6th December 2005, 11:11 PM
Don't know about the Rat though as it looks complicated.

Regards

Growl

thanks for the info growl, ive bought the woodrat, last saturday, and so far im just setting it up but im happy with it. a lot more setting up required than i thought i would need to do. i weas concerned that the machine would be a bit complicated to use but once youhave the machine in front of you and teh manual in your hand it sems a lot more self explanatory. im not mounting it on a wall but building a "wall section" to mount in a triton superjaws and containing the dust extraction etc. i will post piccies as it goes together this weekhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

TritonJapan
23rd December 2005, 08:05 PM
im not mounting it on a wall but building a "wall section" to mount in a triton superjaws and containing the dust extraction etc. i will post piccies as it goes together this weekhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

Doug,

Any pictures yet of your rat in action?

Steve

doug the slug
23rd December 2005, 11:24 PM
Doug,

Any pictures yet of your rat in action?

Steve

should be posting some over this long weekend, steve. waiting to borrow son's digital camera before i put the back on the wall section so i can show the dust extraction ive set up.

The woodrat manual isnt the easiest literature to read, but thats with good reason as im realising as i go further into it. its a bit circular, you need to read the chapters in a different order depending on what you want to do first. its not a tutorial you can start at page one on and work your way through. if it was it would be 3 times as big and very repetitive.
ive installed the triton router on the rat by cutting down the router fence and mounting it on the router plate of the rat. this allows quick mounting and dismounting and the extra 1/4 inch of lost plunging depth should not matter because of the great plunge depth of the triton and the long length of the woodrat bits, which i have yet to buy. i drilled the holes in the triton router fence to match my makita router just in case, but i cant plunge the makita in the rat as easily as i can plunge the triton, and i think the triton's onboard dust extraction will be a plus too. anyway hopefully there'll be piccies of the wall section on thsi thread by the end of the long weekend and a bit more of my dabblings that i can write about. Thanks for your interesthttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

Farm boy
24th December 2005, 08:41 PM
is the woodrat system suitable for a d handle router (old makita) or just plunge routers?
they seem a great system to have

Auld Bassoon
24th December 2005, 08:56 PM
Hi Farm Boy,

It has to be a plunge router I'm afraid.

The W/R is an excellent system for repetitive joinery. I had one but sold it on as I'm more into one-offs these days, plus a fair bit of dark-side stuff...

Cheers!

Farm boy
24th December 2005, 09:15 PM
thanks for that steve
it looks a great system to have
cheers
greg

doug the slug
24th December 2005, 10:22 PM
thanks for that steve
it looks a great system to have
cheers
greg

Greg, it is indeed a great system ands im pleased i bought it. but as stated previously you really need a plunge router or you would not be able to make any where near full use of the system. it keeps the router and the workpiece under control like nothing else ive ever seen. lots of jigs to build and a steep learning curve tho. lots to master, but i feel im making steady progress even tho i dont have a lot of shed time at the moment http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

doug the slug
28th December 2005, 05:54 PM
should be posting some over this long weekend, steve. waiting to borrow son's digital camera before i put the back on the wall section so i can show the dust extraction ive set up. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sorry, Steve and others who are hanging out for photos, i threw the owner (18 yrs old) of the digital camera out of the house last night in an effort to inject some common sense into him, and to hopefully improve my mental and financial wellbeing at the same time. hope to have piccies soon anywayhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

Auld Bassoon
28th December 2005, 08:22 PM
Hi Doug,

Ahh, that time of year again eh?

I can understand, by way of inverted empathy, your position having been thrown out of the house by my somewhat stroppy father several times when I was a mongrel lad...

Cheers, and hope that you get that sorted out;)

doug the slug
8th January 2006, 03:14 PM
Finally got to take some photos!!

The first one shows the front of the wall section i built from MDF, sitting in superjaws, as it will be used. note the pine mounting rails on the front which the woodrat hangs off with its top level with the top of the "wall". the two holes in the top of the wall are to allow the lids to be lifted off two storage areas, for router bits, spanners and woodrat accessories, keeping everything nice and handy. The middle section will lift off too by placing fingers in dust collection hole. this allows for easy access to the bottom of the dust collection chute if necessary. Piccy 2 shows this better.
Piccy 3 shows the slot in the wall section for height adjustment, its maximum depth being determined by the position of the dust collection outlet as shown in piccy 4. when working longer pieces of stock on the 'rat you need to lift it up higher, but if cutting dovetails for a small box or drawer you can drop it to a more comfortable height.
Before anyone asks, beer bottle visible in piccy 1 and other piccies in this post is there to give a sense of scale for those not familiar with the size of the woodrat or superjawshttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif. Note also ele-13's (Jools) pink hammer in the bottom left of piccy 3.

Shedhand
8th January 2006, 03:19 PM
Note also ele-13's (Jools) pink hammer in the bottom left of piccy 3. I thought the hammer might have been yours :eek:... was gettin' worried. So what's with the camera...did the prodigal return???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

doug the slug
8th January 2006, 03:37 PM
First piccy this post shows the wall section before the back is permanently attached. the middle section is the dust extraction, which i deliberately made fairly large as the 'rat can produce a lot of sawedust in a short time on big jobs and teh cavity with the picup point at the bottom should (fingers crossed) provide a little catchup time for the shopvac to keep up when big amounts are thrown around.

Piccy 2 shows the 'rat attached to the wall

Piccy 3 shows how i mount my triton router to the 'rat. Triton router owners may recognise the stainless steel object bolted to the router plate as a section of the router fence, which I cut up (finally found a use for it apart from as a circle jig). this arrangement allows me to attach and detach the triton router to the 'rat very quickly for bit changes and also for use in the router table etc. it also places the router plunge knob in the right hand of the operator for easy plunging in use. the clever bit is that the bolts go through the 'rat's router mounting plate in exactly the right spots for mounting my makita router if necessary, nothing like having a spare!!

piccy 4 shows the left hand fence of the 'rat, which is covered in griptape. the directions said to put glasspaper on it with sprayon adhesive. for those of you who havent been introduced to the joys of griptape i suggest you try it, i like it so much ive stripped all teh sandpaper off my triton protractors and fences and replaced it with griptape. you buy it at skateboard shops by the metre with strips about 8 inches wide. its easy to attach, stays put and in my experience grips better than sandpaper

Thats all the piccys for now

doug the slug
8th January 2006, 03:40 PM
I thought the hammer might have been yours :eek:... was gettin' worried. So what's with the camera...did the prodigal return???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

No !!!!!! we just found his camera hehehehehehhehehehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Shedhand
8th January 2006, 04:04 PM
No !!!!!! we just found his camera hehehehehehhehehehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifBad new s Doug. He probably left it on purpose as an excuse to come home sometime - watchout for a hungry looking waif on your back door step in about 3 months time:cool:. Cunning animals kids!

Looks like a very nice setup mate. How's the study going (Rat 101)? ;)

doug the slug
8th January 2006, 04:28 PM
Looks like a very nice setup mate. How's the study going (Rat 101)? ;)

Theres no such course as 'rat 101, its all deep end stuff, first lesson is 'rat 909. ive found that you have to read all teh chapters before the first one makes sense. having said that im doing alright and its getting easier all the time

Just George
8th January 2006, 06:04 PM
When there is a thread that has pictures attached and there is the bow at the bottom of the thread that contains those dashes that you click on to pop up the photos. It frustrates me when the thread says there is 4 photos yet there is only 3 dashes in the box so I can only view 3 of the 4 pictures, is there something I am not doing?
Is this clear? Have I explained it well enough to be understood?

doug the slug
8th January 2006, 10:12 PM
Sorry george. icant help you there. on my screeni see 4 x thumbnails of the photos ive posted, what does everyone else see?

redwood
8th January 2006, 10:29 PM
Sorry george. icant help you there. on my screeni see 4 x thumbnails of the photos ive posted, what does everyone else see?

four photos, two bouncy things and one george

Shedhand
9th January 2006, 12:22 AM
When there is a thread that has pictures attached and there is the bow at the bottom of the thread that contains those dashes that you click on to pop up the photos. It frustrates me when the thread says there is 4 photos yet there is only 3 dashes in the box so I can only view 3 of the 4 pictures, is there something I am not doing?
Is this clear? Have I explained it well enough to be understood?Happens to me sometimes too George. Just click 'REFRESH' up top and they all should appear.

Just George
9th January 2006, 01:05 PM
Happens to me sometimes too George. Just click 'REFRESH' up top and they all should appear.

gave it a go but with no luck, thanks for the thoughts.

RufflyRustic
9th January 2006, 02:31 PM
George, does this help?

link to fourth photo post number 1 with 4 pics
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17406&d=1136693541


link to fourth photo for the second post with 4 pics
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17410&d=1136694112

cheers
RufflyRustic

Just George
9th January 2006, 04:41 PM
It did but I am not sure it will help when I face the same problem in other posts, thanks for the link though.

doug the slug
9th January 2006, 10:05 PM
Bwoody hell, i go to all the twubble of posting 8 photos up a dialup link; it took hours and all i get is a hijacker making the thread into a how to view the photos threadhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif

Nothing P1sses me offhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

davo453
10th January 2006, 12:59 PM
I have the Littlerat and find it just fine for Dovetails (and all the other joints)the only limit is that they must be 1:7 but as a result it is a bit easier to set up, also it's not as wide at the Woodrat but I’ve never found that a problem.

I have a mezzanine floor in my new shed and have made a bracket to mount it on the steps of the ladder, this means that given a step ladder I can dovetail very long boards if necessary.

Cheers

Dave

Just George
10th January 2006, 06:22 PM
Bwoody hell, i go to all the twubble of posting 8 photos up a dialup link; it took hours and all i get is a hijacker making the thread into a how to view the photos threadhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif

Nothing P1sses me offhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'd be happy if people were trying to see my pictures, however I'm sorry to have bothered you.

Auld Bassoon
10th January 2006, 06:53 PM
Aww mate, just post a BIGGER version of your avatar :D :D :D

doug the slug
10th January 2006, 10:35 PM
I'd be happy if people were trying to see my pictures, however I'm sorry to have bothered you.

Lighten up a bit George, look at the smilies and the spelling i used, it was supposed to be a jokehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

damienhazo
3rd May 2006, 11:50 PM
Hi Doug,

Nice to see your best assets back to the way they were! I've followed this thread and found it all very interesting but would love to know how it all turned out.


Are you using it?
Is it all you hoped and more?
I use a TREND CDJ600 for DTs
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/cdj/
and have thought about buying a TREND M&T jig for mortise and tenons. http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/

Is the flexibility of the WR really worth all the hassle and expense? I've been checking out a few websites and most people seem to spend more time setting them up, learning how to use them, building add-on jigs and ordering replacement blue clips broken through over-tightening - than actually making anything!

I'd love to hear your 'final' thoughts on this little endevour...

Damien.

Nuggett
4th May 2006, 05:23 PM
Hi all.
If you want to see the Rat in action go to work shop demos :
www.woodshopdemos.com. Do a search in google under wood rat.
Also I've heard that if you want the Rat to be portable mount it in your Triton Super Jaws.
Regards Nuggett:)

DPB
4th May 2006, 05:35 PM
Hi Doug,

Nice to see your best assets back to the way they were! I've followed this thread and found it all very interesting but would love to know how it all turned out.


Are you using it?
Is it all you hoped and more?I use a TREND CDJ600 for DTs
http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/cdj/
and have thought about buying a TREND M&T jig for mortise and tenons. http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/mtjig/


Damien.

Damien, the trend M7T jig is the biggest piece of sh^t I've ever purchased!:mad: I think if you search on this BB, you will find others who have also written about their disappointment with this item. I actually gave mine away to a friend - funny thing he hasn't spoken to me since;) .

doug the slug
4th May 2006, 05:43 PM
Yes Damian, i amusing it and although i still need to make one or two additional pieces of equipment to make it perform the way i want it to, im nearly there!! but i dont regard it as expensive, consideering that it is a universal, all sizes dovetailer, mortiser, tennoner, profiler, rebater, sliding dovetailer, finger jointer, and more. you canpay wellover theprice of a woodrat for anydedicated machine to perform only one of those functions

Nugget, see posts 37and 39 in this thread for photos of my setup in the super-jaws

damienhazo
5th May 2006, 07:00 AM
Thanks for the info on the Trend M&T Doug. I've had nothing but good experience with Trend, but I only have a few things... It was going to be one of those purchases way down the track. I use an Elu DS140 bickie-joiner for most joins anyway...

Damien

BarryBurgess
5th May 2006, 07:52 AM
DPB go to any show and watch the demonstrator using any dovetail jig and you will notice that they always use thin short timber in their demo and they use a light weight router. To get any of these jigs working in the real world you have to make yourself a jig that holds the wood used totally horizontal and vertical to the jig. A heavy router is a pig to contol and a light weight 1/4" is easier but lacks the power to do the cuts in hardwood. It take practice to get the heavier routers to work. We have to practice each time we decide to cut dovetails again. You will find that most of the dovetail jigs remain in the cupboard unused as the results without practice are bad - What did I do wrong - the demonstrator made it look easy - it must be me??

Wild Dingo
13th May 2006, 01:39 PM
The woodrat intriques me... In looking at the pics in the Carbetec cattledog I cant help wondering if it couldnt be adapted to become an overhead router system to smooth boards? sorta like a cnc type machine only not ;) must get a closer look at one I guess

ut it does have that rail with the chain pulley system surely set up two rails with the router between them and going across a board wouldnt be hard to setup? be able to go back and forth by itself maybe taking a small slice off the board until its flattened? well Im sure some of the absolute geniuses here could do it!! :cool:

Auld Bassoon
13th May 2006, 06:43 PM
We have to practice each time we decide to cut dovetails again.

I find that by hand cutting D/Ts, which is faster than with any machine or jig if one only has a few to make, such as for a drawer, is a "once learned, not forgotten" sort of thing. Just set an angle somewhere between 1:5 and 1:8 depending on the timber, a decent hand saw and some good chisels and off you go.

However, I will admit to making a few "trial run" cuts with the saw to make sure my "eye" is in...:D

doug the slug
13th May 2006, 10:35 PM
The woodrat intriques me... In looking at the pics in the Carbetec cattledog I cant help wondering if it couldnt be adapted to become an overhead router system to smooth boards?

yes it would be possible to do that, but it would be a laborious process, thats why i just bought a jointer. the winding handle on the 'rat would be fairly simple to automate but the forwards-backwards movement of the router would be more of a challenge, though not impossible. making a jig to hold a board horizontally under the cutter is not difficult, ive made one to hold very small pieces to cut grooves, dados etc which would be able to do this, would just have to make a bigger version to doboards up to about 300 mm wide

CT
21st May 2006, 09:46 PM
How safe is it to use? I've been looking at one here in the UK for a while but from what I can see the wood feeds under the table? I'm thinking to myself do I really want dovetails in my hand.:eek:

Stuart
5th July 2006, 06:04 PM
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but it was either that or start a new one following the same conversation.

After Doug's ravings ;) , I got them to send me out the cattledog and demo DVD.

All I can say is

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: (sorry Doug)

What struck me in the very first demo, was an apparent absolute reliance on a "scrubbing brush on a stick" (that's even what the guy in the video called it) to hold the work up against the router table, and therefore in alignment with the router bit.

Every pass he did looked like it was all done by feel.

I dunno - maybe I'm missing something but that is one scary ####er. Think I'll be quite happy sticking with my router table, and the Incra upgrade to my fence for accuracy, and a positive positioning system (as opposed to aligning things by eye as with the Rat.) And of course - featherboards (as opposed to the scrubbing brush). And being able to see what is happening, especially where my hands are in relation to the cutter :eek:

doug the slug
5th July 2006, 07:06 PM
....After Doug's ravings ;) , I got them to send me out the cattledog and demo DVD.

All I can say is

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: (sorry Doug)

What struck me in the very first demo, was an apparent absolute reliance on a "scrubbing brush on a stick" (that's even what the guy in the video called it) to hold the work up against the router table, and therefore in alignment with the router bit.

No need to apologise, Stu, the scrubbing brush on a stick isnt my favourite part of the system either. in fact anything that requires the scrubbing brush to do on the 'rat, i do on the router table. its mainly profiling.

where the 'rat comes into its own is when you use the other attachments like the mortise rails or mitre box to hold the workpiece while it is being cut inways that are difficult to achieve as well or as fast on a router table or with a hendheld router or when cutting dovetails any size or spacing you want with very few limitations.

the fact that you can upcut when cutting tennons in complete safety with no tearout with great accuracy and repeatable as often as necessary is one of the big advantages.

Stu, i agree that starting out with the scrubbing brush doesnt give a great first impression. i think the scrubbing brush was included in the kit in an ill-advised attempt to be able to say that anything you can do on a router table can be done on the 'rat, even if badly

Stuart
5th July 2006, 10:43 PM
Thanks Doug - all I can say then is they may be good inventors, but they truely suck at marketing! If I was half considering it- they lost the sale as soon as I saw the brush being promoted right off the bat.

Rather than selling me on the best aspects of the system, then showing how it can be made more versatile with some limitations, they showed straight off a rather questionable aspect of the system, and I was looking where it was used in each demo from then on, rather than being impressed with the system (given that is what they want to do).

Still be rather wary of my hands being under a router without adequate visibility.

Rbro71
5th July 2006, 11:20 PM
I dont know what the big deal is about the brush i use one on my spindle instead of a feather board when doing small mouldings because you can glue them on an angle to a piece of scrap so they will apply pressure down as well as towards the fence excellent when the timber is being shaped both sides. The ability to climb cut on the wood rat can not be over stated and is the main reason for me buying one. Try doing that on a router table, actually dont try that not with out buying a power feed and that will set you back at least 700 bucks and it still wont do dove tails.

doug the slug
5th July 2006, 11:22 PM
Still be rather wary of my hands being under a router without adequate visibility.

those are the operations I still do on the router table and will continue to do so. FWIW i still think it was worth teh dollars for what it can do that cannot be done on the router table or can be done faster and/or more accurately on the 'rat

edit: fwiw the scrubbing brush on a stick is probably one of the best anti-kickback devices ive ever used, and it does hold the workpiece very consistently against the router bit. it does lack that safety feeling when you are doing it though

Stuart
6th July 2006, 03:19 PM
There's safety and then there's marketing. Safety - ok, it sounds like a good thing (so long as you are not wanting to run something that is too heavy through), marketing- well that is another thing entirely.

As to using one on a spindle as a feather board - sounds fine - it is the workpiece working with gravity against the brush that bothered me, especially if the cutter also trys to push the work away from itself. Not even the safety aspect, but simply getting a good consistent finish. I'm not saying it doesn't work - obviously those who have them know they do! What I am saying, is at first appearance, it doesn't look like it would, which gets back to my first point: marketing.

Barrie Restall
12th July 2006, 07:42 PM
No-one has mentioned the Incra dovetail system as an option. Any opinions?

Barrie Restall

Sprog
12th July 2006, 08:10 PM
No-one has mentioned the Incra dovetail system as an option. Any opinions?

Barrie Restall
There are lots :D

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/search.php?searchid=847790

Barrie Restall
12th July 2006, 08:22 PM
Thanks Sprog, I should have been more specific. In this discussion on woodrat versus dovetail jigs there is plenty about Gifkins and Leigh jigs but only a side reference to Incra jigs. I thought that there may just be someone who has had experience with the Incra, Leigh and Gifkins who could provide a comparison.

Still hoping.

Kind regards,

Barrie

Rbro71
13th July 2006, 09:11 PM
I have never used an incra jig But after reading about how they do dovetails I went into the shed and made a simple jig using my table saw tenon cutting jig a couple of hardwood spacers and an 11/16 cmt dovetail bit.worked great,though every thing had to be matched to the cutter including width of the board.So it cost me nothing except a head ache converting old fogies imperial into post 60s something double Ms that i could understand.:D ;)

Stuart
14th July 2006, 12:32 AM
Can't speak for the Leigh or Woodrat, but I have used one of those 1/2 blind jigs, and the Gifkins. My preference: the Incra without a shadow of a doubt.

And from what I have seen of the woodrat (from the promo video they sent), I would still stay with the Incra every day of the week.

Rbro71
14th July 2006, 02:45 PM
Well i looked at all the jigs and thought what do i want from my dove tail jig. Infinite spacing and maybe 2 different dovetail sizes no maybe 3 or 4 different size dovetails in the same board or just to be different i might just want asymetrically spaced dovetails.....ah freedom of choice, where do i start.
But i go into the shed look at my big tough router standing on his feet and hanging down between is just the BIGGEST dovetail bit I have ever seen.
Makes me so proud I have to run over and grab my wood.:p ;) :D :D

Barrie Restall
15th July 2006, 01:40 PM
Thanks for the comments. Stuart, you seem to be the only one that has used the Incra system and some other dovetail jigs, could you tell me what you see as the main advantages, please. I am mainly interested in dovetails for drawers and small to medium boxes if it is any help.

Kind regards,

Barrie

Gumby
15th July 2006, 02:55 PM
hey Barrie,

Since Stuart is ofline at the moment, I thought I'd chuck in my 2 bobs worth (I can't be bothered arguing with 'artists' :rolleyes: - in another thread).

The Gifkins is the easiest of all the jigs but it's main and probably only disadvantage, is the inability to cut half-blind dovetails. You can only do thru-dovetails. Other than that, for small boxes, it's bloody brilliant. Roger gifkins provides a great booklet on box making as well. He'll be at the usual WW shows and is well worth a look. Once the Gifkins is set up, it doesn't need to be changed again (or vary rarely anyway, depending on the type of timber and the firmness of the joint you want).

The Incra is one Stuart and I had the pleasure of checking out at Don's (DPB) the other day. It will do both types. While it takes a bit of setting up for each job (bit height, resetting the fence etc) it's pretty simple once you understand it. Cutting is a breeze and very quick. The Incra will also do many other types of joint like straight box joints. Again, you need to reset it each time.

Darren
19th August 2007, 12:36 PM
Hi. I own several dovetail jigs and the Leigh D4R is by far my favourite.
My first jig was made by a company called Vermont America. it was made of plastic and it was of such poor quality I took it back to the store the day I bought it.
My second jig is the Gifkins. I love this jig it is quick to set up and makes tight fitting joints, but it isn't ajustable.
My second jig is the Incra. This is a great jig and can make a lot of different joints, but is a bit fiddly on Half blind joints. Over all a nice jig for small decorative jobs but far to slow to do an entire set of draws for a Chest.
Then I bought the wood rat. I don't use it. Far too much stuffing arround and too much room for error.
And only a couple of weeks ago I bought the Leigh D4R. It is quick to set up, accurate, repeatable and the pins can be spaced however you want.

My advice would be to go straight for the Leigh and avoid all the intermediate expense. If you buy anything else chances are that you will always be wondering how much better it would be with the Leigh.

Darren