Bushie 2nd November 2019, 11:51 PM Finished painting the old house and after getting it restumped the main thing left was the verandah 13m+ across the front and 6m down one side, took me 3.5 months, solo on senior work hours but more than happy with the result.
The only other thing left was the front door. Did build my first door (that wasn't on a shed), the back door, from tongue and groove, am pleased with the results. Although this may sound cheap it really suits the (very) old colonial, minimalist house.
The front door needed something a bit more flash so what could be better than something very similar to what is being replaced, Think It's called a french door, rail & stile, 4 panel door or some such.
Did some research, perhaps not enough, and ended up getting Western Red Cedar for the project, already had some problems with this strange foreign wood that is outlined in another post.
My next query, to those with knowledge and time to reply and are still bothered to keep reading is:
Should the joints be doweled or mortised & tenoned?
My original thoughts were dowels as recently bought a Dowelmax, you know, like a kid with a new toy....but something is telling me I should do M & T's, and even drawbored(?) that some purist deep inside is crying out for.
Have sufficient length in rail material for tenons and pretty good workshop with table saw, bandsaw, planer/thicknesser, mitersaw etc etc.
Really want to make a good job of this but starting to think I may have over stepped my skill set.
Cheers.
Fuzzie 3rd November 2019, 07:29 AM Plenty of modern doors made with machinery use stile and rail router bit sets that form joints that lock together sufficiently well with modern glue and perhaps a few dowels but it's not too difficult to do the size mortise and tenons required to build a door with a minimalist set of hand tools. I've made a few French doors (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/wip-diminished-stile-french-doors-207022) in the past and believe it's a readily achievable project. Go for it!
auscab 3rd November 2019, 12:46 PM I'd go the Mortise and Tenon Bushie.
Do you understand how with a M&T the slots that hold the panels run through and the tenons are placed in the same slot but deeper in or through and wedged the other side . Its a beautiful straight forward system that could be done out of a tool box with a plow plane, some saws , a Mortise chisel in the old days or now. And its very strong . A table saw can run the slots , same with most of the tenons . Or a router could help with those . The only tricky part is the Mortises. A good sharp chisel or two will have those sorted .
If on the other hand you did the Dowled version . You have to be making slots on the Stiles that stop and not go through at top and bottom to hold the panels , A sickening sight! So there are flat spots left for placing dowels . Its more fluffing around for a very much less impressive harder to clamp up weak version of a door. Just to hold an assembled cabinet door properly tenoned with no glue at its dry run stage ready to glue up next to the same thing Dowled Biscuited or even Dominoed shows how superior the good old way is . Domino is almost as good but the other two are not as good for a door like that IMHO . They only come good with glue . Before that there all aver the place in all directions but its mainly the twist that has to be adjusted . M&T done true and Twist on the plane is right and firm .
Rob
Skew ChiDAMN!! 3rd November 2019, 01:23 PM For a front door, definitely M&T. Pretty much for the reasons mentioned in the post above.
A properly constructed M&T will hold together and prevent the door sagging even when the glue fails. Anything else will sag if the glue lets go. By the same token, M&T has more strength should someone try to force their way in. It's usually the jamb and/or fittings that fail first, rather than the door itself giving way.
Dowels/biscuits make for an easier job, but I'd save them for things like internal cabinetry where longevity and strength aren't as much of a concern.
tony_A 3rd November 2019, 03:16 PM I went M&T when I built my doors. Use a slow drying glue, takes a little while to get everything glued, square and clamped.
Bushie 3rd November 2019, 05:34 PM Good info Guy's, thanks for confirming M & T's the way to go.
Fuzzie, I did in fact buy a stile and rail router bit kitchen set when on special, ready for a job in the future, shame they are to small for this build. Did think briefly about resawing the panels in half and using the raising bit and put them in back to back, but feel it's making to much work for not a lot of gain. Started on a raised panel jig for the panels on the tablesaw this morning.
Really liked your door(s).
auscab, so will drill my mortises in marked positions with a 12mm forster bit (aiming for 40mm finished thickness) on the drill press and chisel out before grooving the stiles and rails?
Would drawbored be as acceptable as wedges?
Really like the locking ability of the method. I have a daddo set of blades.
Andy Mc, the added strength is a very valid point.
Tony, good point re the glue, used epoxy for the first time recently and even though it's fussier to use I reveled in the time I could take. I get into a real tizzy with conventional glue on big projects, especially when it's hot.
Cheers.
auscab 4th November 2019, 03:47 PM auscab, so will drill my mortises in marked positions with a 12mm forster bit (aiming for 40mm finished thickness) on the drill press and chisel out before grooving the stiles and rails?
You could drill first but Id be running the slots first and then taking out the mortises . Just because they will guide you a bit and there is slightly less wood once slotted . I do them that way myself . Slot them then use the mortiser with the chisel or chain just resting off the walls or dead on in middle of both .
Would drawbored be as acceptable as wedges?
Really like the locking ability of the method. I have a daddo set of blades.
Drawbored is nice . I think through tenon and two wedges would be stronger and hold forever better. Thing about drawerbore is a peg goes right through. It doesn't have to but its got to be one side or the other at least, but mostly right through in doors . So an external door is probably going to move a bit , getting warm the one side and not the other , or sun one side and cool inside ? basically the peg will show that movement with the finish . If its rustic, which pegs look great on then good . But if your paintingand doing a clean new look or doing clear and are fussy then the peg cracking the finish and doing what they do may annoy you ?
I peg a lot of M&T stuff . Using mainly 1/4 to 1/2 pegs through the M&T. Even with the Domino now. That amazing machine allows a very old way of jointing boards together where a mortise is done each side of a board . loose tenon fitted and pegged both sides . The pegs look good left slightly high and rustic like on rustic like stuff. Id not be pegging in highly finished stuff where it was never used before traditionally .
Rob
Bushie 4th November 2019, 05:56 PM Slot them then use the mortiser with the chisel or chain just resting off the walls or dead on in middle of both .
Understand how the slot would help guide and less material to hog out but I haven't got a "mortiser with a chisel or chain", that's why I thought to drill first to be able to clearly follow the set out marks, then chisel out, 60mm is a long way with a forstner bit though(?).
Ah! That's the info I wanted to hear re drawbored, it should be right then as looking for a rustic oiled look as think it will suit the old place and my new oiled veranda boards.
Skew ChiDAMN!! 4th November 2019, 06:22 PM Understand how the slot would help guide and less material to hog out but I haven't got a "mortiser with a chisel or chain", that's why I thought to drill first to be able to clearly follow the set out marks, then chisel out, 60mm is a long way with a forstner bit though(?).
When doing M&T's by hand I'll drill with a 3-4mm bit first, coming in from both sides to about half depth, until the holes meet. A pedestal drill with a fence to keep things square makes things much more accurate.
Once I've drilled both sides I'll run a slightly larger drill (5-6mm) through so I have a straight bore. I'll use this straight bore to guide a spade bit of appropriate size. If the "bore" wanders off-centre too far - it only happens occasionally, but it does happen - I'll size the spade bit to match the minimum distance for that hole. Better to have to do a bit more chisel work than to try to add material back into the hole! ;)
Then comes the chisel work of course...
It's not as... awkward or slow as it sounds. I can knock out a usable mortise in less time than it's taken me to compose this post.
Ah! That's the info I wanted to hear re drawbored, it should be right then as looking for a rustic oiled look as think it will suit the old place and my new oiled veranda boards.
A through mortise really doesn't take much longer than a stopped mortise and is stronger mechanically when it comes to sag. Throw in a couple of wedges and the job is as strong as it's going to get. Pin it if you want the rustic look, but I strongly recommend wedging as well...
...after all, it's your front door! Trust me, you really don't want to be reminded "I shouldn't have taken that shortcut" every time someone open or closes it. :D
Bushie 4th November 2019, 06:41 PM More great advice, this forum is beaut.
I will try this drilling method on some scrap, sounds good. I have a fence and table on the drill.
The best of both worlds, yeah wedge and drawbore, why couldn't I have thought of that, will do if i have enough usable material on my .9m stock.
GraemeCook 6th November 2019, 01:43 PM Hi Bushie
Some excellent discussion, but still some lingering doubts.
I would be a little concerned by your choice of WRC for an external door; in my view it is way too soft. Possible issues are:
Hinge screws, which bear the full weight of the door continually, may pull out after a couple of years,
Draw bore pins may tear the timber rather than drawing the joint tighter,
Front doors get a lot of usage and any knocks will show as highly visible dents.
Might be better to keep the WRC for another project and find a more suitable timber locally?
As to the discussion about joints, timber movement, etc, here is a very interesting article from FineWoodwroking adapting a Chinese frame consrtuction technique. It is quite sophisticated.
http://l.e.taunton.com/rts/go2.aspx?h=939315&tp=i-H43-BC-H86-qwYMB-1o-4wJ-1c-qwViz-1lWdAm&x=w1724enl%7ci-H43-BC-H86-qwYMB-1o-4wJ-1c-qwViz-1lWdAm%7cw1724enl%7c65850%7c782324567
Cheers
Graeme
Bushie 8th November 2019, 03:56 PM Hi Bushie
Some excellent discussion, but still some lingering doubts.
I would be a little concerned by your choice of WRC for an external door; in my view it is way too soft. Possible issues are:
Hinge screws, which bear the full weight of the door continually, may pull out after a couple of years,
Draw bore pins may tear the timber rather than drawing the joint tighter,
Front doors get a lot of usage and any knocks will show as highly visible dents.
Might be better to keep the WRC for another project and find a more suitable timber locally?
This is pretty devastating to read, I did some research (but obviously not enough) before deciding on WRC and a few web articles/blogs said it was suitable for doors.
Have had doubts about it, thinking "this is just glorified pine" but thought it's just different to what I'm used to.
To add to the misery, in squaring and now starting to run through thicknesser, some are not making the spec. I had planed on, for example, thought I'd get 95 x 40 out of nominal 100 x 50. Or is that to much to expect?
Will have enough (if I decide to go ahead) to do 90 x for the stiles but then they are getting a bit on the puny side(?)
What's worse, one length doesn't look like making 40mm finished, and one 200 x 40 (when finished) has a mark right across that doesn't look like coming out, when I finished in disgust and heat today.
Not sure what other project I could use this stuff on and buying more timber would be hard to explain to the Minister of Finance after spending $550 on this lot.
GraemeCook 8th November 2019, 04:23 PM Hi Bushie
Awkward situation, but someone might come in with some better advice.
My house was built in 1880's and the doors have all survived. Just re-measured them:
Interior doors are old growth baltic pine - 4 panelled - and 33 mm thick in the rails and stiles. Remember old growth timber is heavier, denser and stronger than plantation timber of same species.
Exterior doors are 38 mm thick huon pine (remember I am in Tas) - also 4-panels.
Probalbly the best sources of information on timber properties are:
The Wood Database (https://www.wood-database.com/) and
Bootle's "Wood in Australia" - book.
For timbers I am not familiar with, I usually compare their properties with woods that I know - radiata, Tas oak, and Tas blue gum.
Cheers
Graeme
rustynail 8th November 2019, 07:43 PM The sizes you are suggesting are well under the normal dimensions for a timber paneled door. Particularly if you are intending to mould and rebate the edges. 38mm thick is pretty much the standard and often even thinner material is used. Door styles 120mm, bottom rail 250mm, mid rail 180mm, top rail 120mm. These sizes are not set in stone and can be refigured a little to suit available material. Panels should be full thickness of the door to make for easy sanding through a sanding machine.
As mentioned by others, WRC is a soft timber but keep in mind the cedars of all types have been used for door manufacture for a couple of hundred years. The advantage of a soft timber is that it dents rather than tears. This means a quick steaming with a hot iron and wet flannel and the dent is gone. Not so easy with a tear as the cells are broken and steam cannot expand the crushed cells.
powderpost 8th November 2019, 09:27 PM I did time in a joinery shop as a joiner, making framed and flush panel doors. That was in about 1969, so the dimensions are imperial, sorry, after all my hair is now white.
Most definitely use mortice and tenon joints. I prefer to run a saw cut 1/2" from the edge of the tenon and fit the wedges there. I was involved in a court case where dowels were used, the joints had failed.
Styles and top rail were 41/4", mid and bottom rails were 101/2". External doors were 13/4" thick and internal doors were 13/8" thick. Sorry about using neanderthal dimensions, but I am nearly past the use by date. :C
Would you consider getting a morticing tool for a drill press? Save a lot of hassles.
Jim
GraemeCook 9th November 2019, 02:46 PM Thanks Rusty and Jim
My doors are all made from old growth timber milled 130+ years ago - the baltic pine is quite fine grained with about 20 growth rings per inch; the huon pine growth rings are even closer together. Both timbers are relatively hard and heavy for pines.
I have again rechecked the dimensions:
Internal doors - Baltic pine - 33 mm thick.
Stiles - 100 mm wide
Rails - bottom and centre - 225 mm
Rail - top - 100 mm.
Exterior doors - Huon pine - 38 mm thick.
Stiles - 100 mm wide
Rails - bottom and centre - 225 mm
Rail - top - 100 mm.
Note: The widths of the timber in the internal and exterior doors are the same, probably indicating that the same joiner made them. The exterior doors are taller and wider than the internal doors - the size difference is accounted for by the sizes of the panels, not the stile or rail widths.
I do not know whether these sizes are "normal" but after 130+ years they are almost run in. I emphasise that they are old growth and not plantation timbers.
Cheers
Graeme
Skew ChiDAMN!! 9th November 2019, 11:57 PM Door dimensions vary quite a bit. Personally I'd consider 35mm the absolute minimum thickness for an external door but I have made thinner. Similarly, I've made external doors with 90mm top AND bottom rails and stiles. Not my recommendation, but nevertheless people have - and still do - plugged their house-holes with 'em.
This is pretty devastating to read, I did some research (but obviously not enough) before deciding on WRC and a few web articles/blogs said it was suitable for doors.
At the last joinery I worked, WRC was the 'default' timber for all external joinery inc doors unless requested otherwise. (I will add that this was a high-end bespoke place, too. I couldn't afford one of my own doors made there! :rolleyes: )
To add to the misery, in squaring and now starting to run through thicknesser, some are not making the spec. I had planed on, for example, thought I'd get 95 x 40 out of nominal 100 x 50. Or is that to much to expect?
That's a bummer, but no matter the timber species there'll almost always be a piece or three that just don't meet expectations. Whether it be unexpected rifts/veins or a surprise tendency to warp after material removal. When making a cutting list, I always allow an extra 10% in total length for just this reason.
In a worst case scenario, your centre rail can be built up from narrower stock, especially if using wedged M&T's. I wouldn't recommend this for the top/bottom rails or stiles though.
Bushie 10th November 2019, 09:24 PM Thanks all for your suggestions and input, much appreciated.
Have sent an email to the retailer re rough sawn size and some photos, but won't hold my breath for a positive outcome.
Do realize the difference between old growth and plantation as, as stated earlier, have done most of my "woodwork" with recycled timber. My only regret at this stage is wading out of my depth.
Particular thanks to Andy Mc, as you give me some hope.
auscab 10th November 2019, 10:40 PM Bushie . I think you should first check the timber sizes available to you . The species you have sounds good , sounds like you just need to get some right sizes to top up, and the leftovers go into panels ? or something nice for the missus ?
Then when you know what your working with , draw up what you want to build on a bit of paper or a piece of board .
Just use a ruler and square as best you can to drawer the door with its rails and stiles and panels with the inside bits not seen drawn as dots or dashes to indicate an inside view. Or maybe leave out the dots for another drawing .
If you use one centimeter / 10mm to represent 100mm it wont be to big. That's a scale of 1:10 . Each mm on the ruler= 10mm on the drawing.
Or , go 20mm = 100mm if you like for a scale of 1:5. Each mm on the ruler = 5mm on the drawing.
When you do that and put down what you know you can work on the things your not sure of . Things will start falling into place. Its an amazing thing to watch happen .
Show the guys here and if it needs more sorting things should be easy from there .
Once the design is right on paper you can work out a cutting list and the machining steps .
That's the way to do it . And you will be knowing exactly where and what your doing .
Rob
GraemeCook 10th November 2019, 10:42 PM ......
My only regret at this stage is wading out of my depth.
Particular thanks to Andy Mc, as you give me some hope.
No, Bushie !
You are nowhere near your limits. The questions that you are asking and the issues that you raise are all very relevant.
You are just extending your range. You are in control, even if it does not quite feel like that. Stick at it; it will all come together.
I almost always dislike my work whenever I finish a job. Six months or so later I think - ", I really did that!"
Most of us, perhaps all, have been through what you are talking about. Most of us have experienced it many times.....
You'll get there.
Fair Winds
Graeme
Clinton1 20th November 2019, 01:39 PM Don't use dowels mate, full length tenons add so much strength, a tight fitting tenon all the way through just has a) more surface ares for glue, plus b) each tenon, tightly fitted offers a mechanical resistance to sagging forces.
Dowels will have a fraction of the mechanical resistance to sagging, they'll pull out over time..
I'd use x-linked pva with a longer curing time. Epoxy should have 'sloppy joints' as (per the manufacturer instructions) it needs a little bit of space between the mating surfaces to create enough of a glue line for maximum strength. Many people overlook this, a tight fitting joint with epoxy is a weak joint. Slightly sloppy joints means you also have a harder time clamping it square. With pva I just make tight tenons then use a little v carving chisel to make glue 'escape' lines down the tenon.
If you want to draw bore, personally I rate it. If at a later time you want to paint it and not see the dowel ends, you just countersink the dowel ends and bog it flush.
If you dowel the door, the top end dowels nearest the top hinge will sag and pull the dowels out. More so if you leave the door open, of course.
WRC. Well, old growth is fine, plantation/open space regrowth grown WRC will have huge growth rings. As identified, it's a soft wood and dents easily, but indents can either be steamed out, or if you use a non-varnish added oil, you can oil the dint and swell out the indents. If you are not going to kick the door open with steel capped boots, it shouldn't be a drama. If the door is shaded by the verandah, or if it's on the south side, there shouldn't be enough temperature differential to make a difference. If it's out of the sun and rain, and you like natural oil finishes, disregard the bunnings stuff, (which all has freaky highly processed polyurethane varnishes and driers added to it) and give it 3 coats of 100% natural tung oil. "The Wood Works" in Mona Vale, Sydney sell it for $57/litres, and it goes a very long way. Probably find it cheaper, but I made two desks at tops 900x600 plus rails and 90x90 legs and used about 100mL. So it goes a long way. For a completely solid door, I'd look to use about 200mL or less, $10. The bunnings polyu added varnishes you have to sand back for fresh recoats to key in for the new varnish coat, tung oil just needs a wipe down with turps to get rid of dirt and dust, then an oiled cloth wipe over.
With WRC I'd seriously consider using a wire brush to draw out the grain, make it a feature, if that fits in with your house design. Scrub it along the grain to make a tactile and visually pleasing surface, but maybe I'm just a bit of a timber nerd. ?
Have fun in your adventures!
GraemeCook 20th November 2019, 04:02 PM Don't use dowels mate, full length tenons add so much strength, a tight fitting tenon all the way through just has a) more surface ares for glue, plus b) each tenon, tightly fitted offers a mechanical resistance to sagging forces.
Dowels will have a fraction of the mechanical resistance to sagging, they'll pull out over time........
So true.
Coincidentally, I have just been re-reading George Nakashima "The Soul of the Tree", p.128, and I quote:
"...The decline in quality of modern furniture is probably due in part to the use of the quick, easy and cheap dowel joint.
The decline in quality of modern domestic architecture can be traced to the popularity of the stud wall put together with hammer and nails, a type of construction calling for no joinery at all...."
Provocative, but probably true.
Graeme
auscab 20th November 2019, 04:13 PM So true.
Coincidentally, I have just been re-reading George Nakashima "The Soul of the Tree", p.128, and I quote:
"...The decline in quality of modern furniture is probably due in part to the use of the quick, easy and cheap dowel joint.
The decline in quality of modern domestic architecture can be traced to the popularity of the stud wall put together with hammer and nails, a type of construction calling for no joinery at all...."
Provocative, but probably true.
Graeme
True Graeme .
When was that written so we know what he is calling modern furniture?
GraemeCook 20th November 2019, 04:32 PM True Graeme .
When was that written so we know what he is calling modern furniture?
Good question, Auscab
The book was first published in 1981 - don't think things have improved since then - or has the nailgun replaced the hammer, and is the staple replacing the dowel?
Cheers
Graeme
Bushie 20th November 2019, 04:38 PM Thanks Clinton.
I have given up the idea of dowels due to the learned advice given here, and looking forward to mortise and tenon. Nice to have confirmation that it is the right way to go.
Also nice information re the glues. I do surprise myself with tight joins most times, so would have erred there with epoxy. Will study x-linked PVA, certainly need slow drying as I'm a panic merchant during glue ups.
Intend to give it 3 coats of pure Tung oil.
"With WRC I'd seriously consider using a wire brush to draw out the grain, make it a feature, if that fits in with your house design. Scrub it along the grain to make a tactile and visually pleasing surface"....
Bit over my pay rate and can't say I've ever seen an example.
Am stuck with the plantation WRC now and at the moment awaiting confirmation on replacement pieces for the ones that came up short.
This project has gone onto the back burner for a while as decided to reorganize shop as my main working bench is mostly covered in stickered WRC.
Then I will probably make a deck chair for the missus while the next lot of WRC is seasoned, stickered after planning and thicknessing.
Cheers.
GraemeCook 20th November 2019, 05:26 PM Hi Bushie
I am far less concerned than Clifton with tight joints and epoxy. In my view the potential problem is dry joints, from glue soaking into the pores and leaving insufficient on the surface.
My preferred epoxy is WEST System or the local fibreglass shops generic copy and I always use their slow hardener. I always strive for tight joints and my epoxy gluing practice is as follows:
apply even coat of unthickened epoxy to both surfaces and wait 15 minutes for it to soak in,
apply second coat of the same epoxy and assemble joints,
clamp firmly,
when epoxy is set but not cured clean off squeeze-out.
If the joint is not tight then the epoxy must also act as a filler and I thicken the second coat (above) with either colloidal silica or sander dust. I have jars of sander dust of different types of timber to facilitate matching.
Cheers
Graeme
auscab 20th November 2019, 05:39 PM Good question, Auscab
The book was published in 1981 - don't think things have improved since then - or has the nailgun replaced the hammer, and is the staple replacing the dowel?
Cheers
Graeme
1981 :) .
Could say the same for 1901 when the dowel use was in full swing . Once that glue join went all that stuff was thrown away after a few goes of squeezing glue in and trying to make it better .
Yeah it has got as bad as Nail gun staples and screw . I did a quote for a sofa . I quoted proper M&T traditional construction . I do sometimes get these jobs with people understanding what they are getting .
This one however had already been quoted by the Upholsterer to supply the frame through his maker to the decorator as well.
Cheaper job got the go ahead and I didn't get the work . No probs , Ive always got too much doing nice stuff.
I got to see the horror story before upholstery . No joins except from leg to seat rail I think ? Cant see anything else there . But the rest , all the back and arms , everything above the seat rails are Butt joined, Stapled and screws . Ten staples per joint with poly glue squeeze out every where . Some with no glue and gaps you could slide a ten cent piece through .
Errr >> Not a nice sight .
Id love to show the pictures that were sent to me , sent because of how ridiculous a sight it was.
Cant do that though .
Rob
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