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DavidG
9th November 2005, 04:55 PM
Just got a P&N 22mm Super Gouge.
It can remove wood real quick.:D
Nice tool.


?? Why does the title change to P&n when I typed in P&N???:confused:

RETIRED
9th November 2005, 05:25 PM
Just got a P&N 22mm Super Gouge.
It can remove wood real quick.:D
Nice tool.


?? Why does the title change to P&n when I typed in P&N???:confused:
Seems it needs spaces David.:cool: Maybe to stop shouting?

rsser
10th November 2005, 08:17 PM
Yep. I use the 17mm version as my roughing gouge for bowls. It's a hoot turning green timber with it - big ribbons flying over the shoulder. And plenty of heft in it for long overhangs.

hughie
11th November 2005, 10:13 AM
David, yep! I got a 12mm or 1/2" whatever anyway it cuts fine. Rips into green timber in great style. As Risser says the timber peals off, loverly to watch. Hughie :)

keith53
11th November 2005, 10:16 AM
Fantastic tool. Bought one at the Brisbane www show. Also a 12mm and both have gidgee handles which balances them nicely. You'll have it for years.

A-Marks
6th September 2007, 04:13 PM
when grinding the super gouge what did you find was the best angle and profile I have just got one and as usual it isn't sharpened in fact I don't think any Patience & Nicholson gouges are factory sharpened.

Alastair
6th September 2007, 04:35 PM
Some ideas here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/newforum/grinds.shtml

RETIRED
6th September 2007, 05:54 PM
when grinding the super gouge what did you find was the best angle and profile I have just got one and as usual it isn't sharpened in fact I don't think any Patience & Nicholson gouges are factory sharpened.No woodturning chisels are ever sharp from the factory.:wink: :D

Wild Dingo
6th September 2007, 06:13 PM
So... come on you mob let a bloke know whats so special about this super guoge thingy!!

I mean young Chris left me with the words ringing in me earholes to GET SOME P&N CHISELS!! and one of them was the supaduparoota guougey thingy :; and of course when I wandered up to Carbetexus they didnt have any did they? no they did not... and did they have any supaduparoota gougey thingys? no they did not didnt have a clue what I was talking about actually

But then Chris never EXPLAINED why I needed one did he? No he did not :roll: bloody galah was goin at a 1000 to 1 rushin around like a demented chook on steriods wasnt he!! :doh: Just left me with a simple shopping list he did... which ahem.. errr um I havent as yet bought... well I did buy some chisels the only one I didnt get was the supaduparoota one and none of the 4 I did buy were P&N they were Hamlet... and theyre goin chocolate out in the shed tryin to work out where Juliet is!! :U

Anyways knowledge is a good thing eh? :2tsup:

rsser
6th September 2007, 06:47 PM
Hi A-Marks, bevel at about 45 degrees should be good to start with.

If doing it freehand rotate the handle at the extremes to pull back the top edge of the flute.

The flute's a bit daggy shaped, as would fit with an Aussie design :D ... the steel's good quality though.

Pat
7th September 2007, 07:22 AM
The Lumber Bunker (http://www.lumberbunker.com.au/shopmastery.php?top=0&cat1=Turning&find=)has the 16mm and 22mm super gouge's , along with a large range of other P & N Turning tools.

The usual statement: I have no pecuniary interest in this providitor or the manufacturer.

Frank&Earnest
7th September 2007, 12:58 PM
Hi guys, maybe you can solve a mystery for me. These are the clues.

Adelaide WW Show. Provider not mentioned to protect the (?) innocent.

Big display of unhandled tools in plastic sleeves marked Crown Tools - HSS Made in Sheffield England. Some rust showing. Marked down 50 %.

Bought a Masterflute gouge for $63. 16mm bar, 10mm flute. Nice long 200mm flute. No manufacturer's marks on the steel.

Question: How do I know that it is genuine?

Laboriously ground it. The bottom of the flute is very narrow. Fail to see the point of cutting a 3mm ribbon with a 16mm bar.

Question: is this what I should expect?

Thanks in advance.

rsser
7th September 2007, 01:28 PM
A Masterflute gouge should have a parabolic flute I think ... it's a knock off of the Taylor/Child Superflute.

If the flute profile is distinctly V shaped or a deep narrow U then it's a poor knock-off.

Can you find a profile of the Crown Masterflute on the web for comparison?

... I have a number of UK turning tools with the brand on the handle but not on the steel btw.

Frank&Earnest
7th September 2007, 03:34 PM
Thanks Ern. I was not able to find a profile of the flute on the web, but I can say that the profile of my gouges is parabolic, albeit narrow. Seems to be slightly off centre though, which does not scream "good quality" to me.

I checked out the references for the 242XW and 240W gouges I bought though, and they do not seem to match. They are supposed to be 1/2" and 1/4" wide, while mine are 7/16 (5/8 bar) and 7/32 (3/8 bar).

Unless I am informed that there is some "nominal size" convention and this is how it works, I am temped to have a quiet word with Consumer Affairs.

rsser
7th September 2007, 07:34 PM
F&E, the measures for gouges are all over the place in terms of ratios of bar width to flute width etc.

Off-centre however would get my hackles up.

Bottom line though is 'how does it perform in use?'.

Frank&Earnest
7th September 2007, 10:49 PM
Can't really say how it performs, tried it only 10 seconds before switching to a scraper. Given my lack of expertise I would not make a rash judgment, anyway. I'll probably just wait and see, it's not going to disappear in thin air.

Ratio I didn't even consider, was only wondering if 7/16 is a tolerable approximation for 1/2 or an indication that the gouge is not genuine.
Unless somebody has a definite answer on this one, I'll just let it ride.

Pat
8th September 2007, 09:16 AM
Vermac (http://vermec.tripod.com/id3.html) has P & N chisels too

Frank&Earnest
8th September 2007, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the link, Pat. Now I can tell that the profile of my 16mm gouge exactly matches the profile of the P&N gouges shown there. The worrying part is that the profile shown for the Supa Gouge ($88) as far as I can tell is the same as the profile of the Bowl Gouge ($55). Typographic error or funny marketing? Are Crown profiles the same as P&N profiles?

Are P&N gouges marked on the steel? If not, the worst case scenario now could be that somebody was flogging rusty P&N bowl gouges at double their worth... all supposition, of course!:D

rsser
9th September 2007, 08:23 AM
From memory F&E P&Ns are marked on the shaft.

Their gouge flutes are a distinctive U shape.

Cliff Rogers
9th September 2007, 11:36 AM
Did I mention that I don't like them much? :rolleyes:

The Henry Taylor HS1 Superflute is the best by far in my books :2tsup: .... shame about the price of it now. :cool:

rsser
9th September 2007, 01:47 PM
Yeah you did Cliff. Not least by the look on your face when using mine :(( :D

I've been enjoying the Ellsworth 5/8" signature gouge - on special from Timbecon a while back. The combo of steep tip bevel and ground-back-beyond-90 degree wings works well. It's a bit of a performance sharpening it though. And the instructions that accompany it are useless but he sent an updated set by email overnight.

btw, Glaser is said to source his bowl gouge blanks from Australia. Must be a P&N with a flute ground to his specs.

HansGScholte
9th September 2007, 07:04 PM
On Peter Child's website there is a short article on the History of the Superflute (http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm). It has pictures of profiles. IIRC there is an explanation on the measurement of bowl gouges as well.

My Sorby and Henry Taylor tools have the brand name on the steel, the few Crown tools I have don't.

Hope this helps,

Hans

Frank&Earnest
10th September 2007, 12:02 AM
Thanks guys. Given that P&N tools are marked and Crown ones are not the question is probably answered. The profile seems to be now standard to all (thanks Hans). Let's just say that my low satisfaction is due to my lack of experience... never blame the tools!:wink:

NeilS
10th September 2007, 10:41 AM
Hi Frank&Earnest


Hi guys, maybe you can solve a mystery for me. These are the clues.

Adelaide WW Show. Provider not mentioned to protect the (?) innocent.

Big display of unhandled tools in plastic sleeves marked Crown Tools - HSS Made in Sheffield England. Some rust showing. Marked down 50 %.

Bought a Masterflute gouge for $63. 16mm bar, 10mm flute. Nice long 200mm flute. No manufacturer's marks on the steel.

Question: How do I know that it is genuine?


I also bought some of those specials (including the big Ellsworth signature bowl gouge) at the Adelaide Wood Show and I will have to say I am very happy with it. I’ve used it quite a bit since then and it is performing very well. The tool steel is definitely every bit as good as any of my P&N, other Crown, Sorby, Diamic and Henry Taylor tools, and the flute profile seems the same to me as my older ‘super’ flute gouge.

A small eccentricity in the flute position in the round bar shouldn’t be such an issue as it’s the flute that forms the cutting edge and profile, and, with that type of profile, the bevel width is always changing as you rotate the gouge. Just make sure you centre the axis of the parabolic flute within your sharpening jig (if you use one) to get a symmetrical grind on both wings, if that’s important to you. But I wouldn’t be happy with the tool if the parabolic curve is not symmetrical about its own axis (eg one side more hyperbolic than parabolic).

Putting aside brand and profile preferences, at 50% off I think I got a good deal on the Ellsworth gouge and suggest you have done OK on your deal as well.

I agree with you about the unclear instructions that came with the gouge. If I hadn't used that profile before I would have been very confused by them. Are David Ellsworth's updated instructions on a website somewhere which could be pointed to from this forum?

BTW, I don’t always use a symmetrical grind on these gouges as I tend to use one wing on the outside of the form and the other on the inside, so each wing can then be optimised for its primary task.


Neil

Frank&Earnest
10th September 2007, 01:46 PM
Thanks Neil, what you say is comforting. I had never used a bowl gouge before (just learned the difference from these pages some weeks ago!:- ) and now, after grinding it "better", I am slowly getting there. Must do a search and find out why it is supposed to work better than the old gouge (that now I know to be a "spindle" gouge) to which I am used.

ETA: are you a member of the SA Woodgroup? I have just rejoined... in the carvers group! No comment on the administrative situation...

Pat
10th September 2007, 10:04 PM
Jim Caroll (http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_by_category?category_id=1107144957)has P & N as well

rsser
11th September 2007, 08:57 AM
PM me your email address Neil if you'd like a copy of the sig. gouge instructions - the files are too big to post here.

Mike Jefferys
12th September 2007, 05:49 PM
As far as I know P&N use Austrian or German high speed steel as there is no HSS made in Australia. Of all the makes of turning tools that I have sold or seen, P&N take the least care with sharpening at the factory. It would be more accurate to say they shape the tool. This is, I suspect, an entirely prgamatic approach because there is no agreement about angles and edge shapes. As far as I know no manufacturer hollow grinds any tools, they all put flat grinds on skews for instance. Again, put yourself in their position, whose opinion would they listen to? In my experience turners have very stong and divergent beliefs in these matters.
An opinion on bowl gouge flutes - they MUST be a catenerary or parabolic shape. P&N make what I regard as a hybrid with a hemispherical flute - their Supa Gouge - which may have its uses but the difference in controllability and predicability between a round and parabolic flute is quite major for bowl and platter work.
P&N use the bar diameter (sensibly in my view) to denote the tool, Sheffield use the flute width. P&N appear to have moved to metric stock a year or so ago, I know this because they alone are smart enough to accurately arris the rectangular tangs of their flat section tools so that they fit perfectly into a round hole which makes handling up a tool a snap. (I had been using a 1/2 inch drill and found I had to change to a 12mm.) Compare this for simplicity in a home workshop with trying to mount the Sheffield style tapered tang in a round hole.
If you think I own shares in the company I don't but I am clearly a fan. They alone make a shallow fluted detail gouge, a far more useful tool than a conventional spindle gouge (there I go, opinions again!), their skews 24mm and up are 8mm thick and their roughers are in a class of their own.
P&N have had several changes of ownership over recent times and, as both a user a retailer of these tools, I dread the day a new ownership will drop the line, heaven knows we make nothing much else in the tool game in this country anymore.

rsser
13th September 2007, 08:30 AM
The flute on the smaller bowl gouges that I have is a straightforward U. Tends to clog but can do some nice cutting nonetheless.

rsser
14th September 2007, 04:09 PM
btw, Mike, welcome.

Members may not know that Mike is the big cheese at www.woodworks.com.au (http://www.woodworks.com.au) ... 'complex' website but knowledgeable and prompt service .

Can you post a pic of the flute profile of the P&N detail gouge you mentioned?

rsser
14th September 2007, 05:24 PM
Following from the last post: pics of a Berg CS turning gouge that I like; looking for something equivalent in HSS.

Mike Jefferys
14th September 2007, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the nice words. As far as I know this profile is unique to P&N right now although I seem to recall that Sheffield used to do one like it - but many years ago.
The reason I like it is that the shallow flute allows a very much longer and more generous bevel and thus a much larger bearing surface for bevel supported cutting. You can also adjust the point profile to your taste; I use a fairly pointed tool for face work which gives me a lot of scope when detailing bowl feet, for instance, and a more conventional finger nail profile for centre work - yes this tool is brilliant at each.
IMHO, this tool is probably only acceptable in HSS because the acuteness of the angle you can put on HSS tools is quite a bit more than you can with carbon steel tools for those of us who date that far back. HSS, being so much more durable can take a very aggressive angle but there are other considerations. A snappy or very long bevel works like a dream but, no free lunch here, because the skill requirement goes up with the bevel length.
As noted earlier these tools come from P&N grossly blunt and flat ground (see the pic) but they do at least have an approximate shape to start from.

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/product/products/TOOLS/TURNING-DETAIL+GOUGES/T6342.html

Mike Jefferys
14th September 2007, 06:02 PM
Sorry I don't know how to include a pic
It's at http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/product/products/TOOLS/TURNING-DETAIL+GOUGES/T6342.html

BernieP
14th September 2007, 06:17 PM
G'Day Mike

good to have you on board, I must browse through your site later, I have a Henry Taylor HS1 Superflute, and find it excellent. After reading your original message I went looking to see what catenary shape meant and come up with this pic, not far removed from the shape of my HS1 gouge.

Cheers
Bernie

rsser
15th September 2007, 05:38 PM
Sounds good Mike.

I'm good for a 10mm detail gouge. Seems close enough to what I'm looking for.

Will post comments when I'm on P plates with it :D

... might need some tips when the L's are out and will post you Mike.

rsser
3rd October 2007, 03:48 PM
Well she's arrived. Thanks Mike.

Nice finish with the bottom of the shank polished for fitting into a handle. [Are P&N getting fussy about finish these days? Good thing.]

See your point. Looong bevel.

Looks hairy. I can see why you might want to grind it fingernail for spindle work. Those corners are in your face ;-}

Mike Jefferys
3rd October 2007, 04:23 PM
Glad you like it. The squared off plan view shape which produces those corners is as you say not useful. About the only angle and profile they get about right IMHO is the underbevel but you have to grind that hollow as well so there is a good few minutes of stuffing about to get it right.

If you do face pieces experiment with it while detailing feet and rims - great access and control. If you ever meet George Hatfield talk with him about P&N detail gouges. He's a huge fan and made them required for use in TAFE .

P&N a year or so ago did lift their presentation a lot although I still can't persuade them to run a mill down the flute of their 40mm rougher. It's still just belted into a fluted shape by a drop hammer I suspect and not ground and polished after forging. If they took that trouble they would have the best on this earth and the tool :)would be better than even the Henry Taylor.

Cliff Rogers
3rd October 2007, 11:01 PM
.... If you ever meet George Hatfield talk with him about P&N detail gouges......
While you have his attention, ask him about Gidgee from CW Qld. :wink: :D

Mike Jefferys
4th October 2007, 11:10 AM
Source: Keith Bootle "Wood In Australia" First ed. 1983
Gidgee, Georgina Acacaia georginae
Air Dry Density 1330 kg per cubic metre
Durability: Class 1
Strength: Class 1
Hardness (Janka): 19

The only wood in the world with a claimed higher Janka is Lignum vitae at 20. Balsa 0.4, Aust 'Cedar' 2.3, Sydney Blue Gum 9.0

(Source Wikipedia: The Janka test measures the force required to embed a 11.28 millimeter (0.444 inch) steel ball into wood to half its diameter. This method was chosen so that the result would leave an indention 100 square millimeters in size. It is one of the best measures of the ability of a wood species to withstand denting and wear. It is also a good indicator of how hard a species is to saw or nail.)

RETIRED
4th October 2007, 01:27 PM
I think I must be turning some of that at the moment.:wink: Close relative to steel but second cousin to concrete.:D:D

rsser
4th October 2007, 03:05 PM
Yeah, and you get to the end of your (small!) bowl, do the sanding and the friggin stuff cracks :doh:

... still got your big lump Vern. It's going to be a carved piece to make the most of those flutes when I get round to mounting the chuck on a long enough 30mm bolt.

Cliff Rogers
4th October 2007, 04:08 PM
It is weird stuff, shatters rather than cuts but scraps to almost a mirror finish.

Polishes nicely, just do NOT heat it up.

Greoge got a surprise to find that a scraper worked better than a detail gouge on a candle holder he was making. :D

Mike Jefferys
4th October 2007, 04:52 PM
Anybody who has been told time and again that cutting is ALWAYS superior to scraping hasn't had one of those moments. Polish the back of the scraper as much as possible first, then put a nice fresh burr on, get the right amount of tool in contact and the right angle, soft hands and some woods come up like glass.

I have been intermittently working my way through one very old, solid ringed gidgee that I picked up in western NSW where it is a relatively rare acacia I understand - its normal latitudes is higher. You can use metal polishing techniques, compounds etc on the stuff. Makes great small work like jewellery. A genuine shaving would be unusual though I'd say and watch the dust, it gives me a particular taste in the back of my mouth and immediately raises my heartbeat. Must have some interesting chemicals in it unless of course the cocky put agent orange on the tree to kill it in the first place!

Any mulga and other acacia species splinters fester in your skin in record time out there. These species are set up to survive.

Cliff Rogers
4th October 2007, 04:59 PM
I had some pink ringed gidgee that had a very high oil content & I could get a plume of stuff like cobwebb to float off it using a gouge rolled over on the side as a shearscraper.

It was very interesting stuff to work but it eventually cracks from the heart out as it dries over the years.

Sorry about the Hijack. :B

TTIT
5th October 2007, 12:33 AM
.............. I'd say and watch the dust, it gives me a particular taste in the back of my mouth and immediately raises my heartbeat. Must have some interesting chemicals in it unless of course the cocky put agent orange on the tree to kill it in the first place!

Any mulga and other acacia species splinters fester in your skin in record time out there. These species are set up to survive.Here's the good news for ya then :U. The chemical in Gidgee that gives you that taste is what they use to make 1080 from. Bet that gives you a warm, fuzzy feelin' eh! Do what I do - keep turning it and think about something else!!!:; - it's too good not to!:2tsup:

For those outside Oz, 1080 is a poison they use for wild dogs down here (don't wanna upset WD by callin' it 'Dingo bait' )