Near miss.

[Boringgeoff]

Had a close call yesterday on the way home, towing our caravan, after a couple of weeks away. Came over a rise and there in front of us was a fellow riding a recumbent bike, we were right on top of him with a car approaching from the opposite direction. I started anchoring then realising we weren't going to pull up in time, went out and round him. Luckily the approaching car backed off and the episode ended safely.
My question is this: (because I can't find the answer on the WA Gov't site) Is it compulsory or good sense for recumbent cyclists to have a mast with a flag on it?
Cheers,
Geoff.

[aldav]

My question is this: (because I can't find the answer on the WA Gov't site) Is it compulsory or good sense for recumbent cyclists to have a mast with a flag on it?


Probably not. It is also unnecessary to have a licence, and a brain is an optional extra.

[ian]

As far as I know there is no requirement for a rider of a recumbent bike to display a mast and flag.
Though it would be a very good idea if they did.


But ...
Assuming the road you were travelling on was built or upgraded sometime within the past 60 years. Very likely if it was being used by a cyclist,
the evidence you present

Came over a rise and there in front of us was a fellow riding a recumbent bike, we were right on top of him with a car approaching from the opposite direction. I started anchoring then realising we weren't going to pull up in time, went out and round him. Luckily the approaching car backed off and the episode ended safelysuggests that you were either

1. "not keeping a proper lookout" -- since the early 1960s, the various state Road Design criteria have required that an object 200 mm high be detectable at the road's design speed. A recumbent cyclist would be a minimum of about 500 mm high, so "easily" detectable.

2. your towing vehicle-caravan combination was not properly set-up. A full "hit the anchors stop" on a dry road should take well under 160 metres.

3. your reaction time is much longer than the assumed WA absolute minimum of 2.0 seconds.

(To my mind, and based on the age stated in your profile, the most probable cause of your reported near collision is a combination of these three factors.
BTW, not looking far enough down the road for "obstructions" is the most common cause of near misses.)

4. exceeding the speed limit by a considerable margin -- not that I for a moment think you were.

5. exceeding the rise's advisory speed by a considerable margin -- again not something I am suggesting you were doing.




I think this might be the first time I've drawn on my work history when responding to a question on these forums.

[Boringgeoff]

Thanks Aldav and Ian.
Yes reaction time and looking at scenery would contribute, it was a 90 kmh section of road and we were probably not exceeding 70 kmh. I think the fact that he had been on the other side of the brow of the hill for some time as we approached lulled me into thinking there was no vehicles ahead. The recumbents I've occasionally encountered before have had a flag up. As well as no flag, this chap had a dark helmet and no hi-vis.
I've not carried out a trial emergency stop with my rig, it's a Land Cruiser and an off-road van with good working electric brakes, I probably could have pulled up in time but I suppose the thought that we mightn't made me decide to go round.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[Fuzzie]

Somehow the responses here remind me of Tom Hanks in the film "Sully".

[SilentButDeadly]

Probably not. It is also unnecessary to have a licence, and a brain is an optional extra.Perhaps. But if you run them over...you have killed someone. And, even if it isn't your fault (though it probably is), you've killed someone. That's going to be just so satisfying to your inner self for the rest of your days isn't it?

[aldav]

Perhaps. But if you run them over...you have killed someone. And, even if it isn't your fault (though it probably is), you've killed someone. That's going to be just so satisfying to your inner self for the rest of your days isn't it?

Did I say that Geoff should have just run him over? I was simply making a point about the complete stupidity of some people. Had he been run over I'm sure the court would have taken into account all the circumstances and apportioned the blame for the accident appropriately. I don't much appreciate the inference that if I was unfortunate enough to suffer such a misadventure I wouldn't care about it and that it wouldn't have any effect on me. What a totally offensive comment. Your user name would seem most appropriate.

[chambezio]

Geoff, I think that scares like this are beneficial to "keep your mind on the job". I don't mean that in a nasty way. Your back ground of driving an Adjatator Truck for years would have your brain doing extremely quick calculations of the possible accident in front of you. Your brain would be conditioned to drive steadily with the "sloppy load" of wet concrete to keep the truck on the road while negotiating steep hills, tight corners etc etc. Your experience in this instance would have gauged the scene in front of you and you reacted with a best case scenario.

I am amased with the human brain when faced with an emergency how quickly you take evasive action without "really thinking about it". Don't be hard on yourself Geoff.....the out come was a good one

[woodPixel]

A flag and some blinking red LEDs would be very sensible.

Bikes may have the right of the road, but being maimed or killed isn't worth the belligerence.


OTOH, if you did go over the top of him there may have been a good chance of a nasty accident.... rise, maximum braking, dirt road, loss of control, heavy caravan to wiggle around...

Messy.

[Boringgeoff]

Ian's carefully considered answer to my query has made me think. I've spent a big part of my working life on the road, but I am approaching 72 years and my reaction time is bound to be diminished. Frequently, on the weekend, we'll encounter conventional cyclists through the Perth Hills most of who will have a flashing tail light and often a hi-vis shirt. I am always cautious in over-taking these groups and can go for miles before getting the opportunity.
The bloke on the recumbent, in my opinion, was stupid to not display a flag, but at the end of the day if I'd run him over I would be at fault.

Cheers,
Geoff.

[SilentButDeadly]

I don't much appreciate the inference that if I was unfortunate enough to suffer such a misadventure I wouldn't care about it and that it wouldn't have any effect on me..

As a recreational cyclist who is also a forum user, I get tired of the accusational language from non cyclist road users who are also keyboard warriors about cyclists. Your response triggered my natural defense response. I'm not sorry you're offended but I do hope that you consider in the future that life on the road is a two way street.

Old Mate on the recumbent could have had a flag in place...but he's not required to (just like you aren't required to have your headlights always on). That doesn't mean the riders brain is not working.

OP did a sterling job by not flattening the rider but, in the end, he'd have carried the can if he did. Mostly likely in the form of a big fine and a hefty tone of regret.

It's the lack of foresight about that regret that makes me wonder about the driver's that shave me on the road occasionally....

[woodPixel]

Makes me think about braking.

On my HSV (which is very old - 2001) it has ridiculously huge brakes. Stupidly so.

BUT, it can pull up so hard it will give you whiplash. You feeeelllll them touch, grab and hold.

I personally have always invested in the best brakes, even if it were just great pads (not generics, but GOOD ones). Every car has upgrade kits. Bigger rotors (massive!), bigger callipers, better pads.

They aren't too expensive and pretty easy to fit if you don't mind a day on the tools. They are foolproof to fit if you have half a brain.

Kits are on ebay and a hundred brake places online.

Insurance companies love them. I mentioned this to mine (QBE, they're great!) and they loved it.... dropped the premium.

They might not stop an accident, but if one can bleed off the maximum kinetic energy it reduces the impact and you retain control (well, you know what I mean). Might save a life.

[ian]

I've not carried out a trial emergency stop with my rig, it's a Land Cruiser and an off-road van with good working electric brakes, I probably could have pulled up in time but I suppose the thought that we mightn't made me decide to go round. Geoff
Can I suggest that you go out and practice controlled "foot through the fire wall" stopping with the land cruiser as it is -- just to get a feel for how the ABS braking on the land cruiser works.
Then go out again and repeat with the caravan attached. Does the van's electric brakes incorporate an ABS function?

If your landie pre-dates ABS brakes, you should seriously think about replacing it.



from your original post and this follow up I'd guess that your reaction time was possibly as long as 5 seconds i.e. 100 metres of road went by before you started to react to the cyclist's presence.

[aldav]

As a recreational cyclist who is also a forum user, I get tired of the accusational language from non cyclist road users who are also keyboard warriors about cyclists. Your response triggered my natural defense response. I'm not sorry you're offended but I do hope that you consider in the future that life on the road is a two way street.

That's right, make some more baseless assumptions and follow up with some further offence. You are certainly very sensitive about the subject, and ready to attack at the least provocation, aren't you.

Out of interest would you personally ride a recumbent bike with a wheel track of, say, 1 metre on a road with a single lane in each direction and a speed limit of 90kph? This would seem to be a risky enterprise to me even with the appropriate aids to being seen. This strikes me as totally different, and considerably more risky, than a conventional bicycle. Reminds me of the guy on his gofer traveling down the side of the left lane of the Great Western Highway at the Lapstone bends.

[bueller]

That's right, make some more baseless assumptions and follow up with some further offence. You are certainly very sensitive about the subject, and ready to attack at the least provocation, aren't you.

Out of interest would you personally ride a recumbent bike with a wheel track of, say, 1 metre on a road with a single lane in each direction and a speed limit of 90kph? This would seem to be a risky enterprise to me even with the appropriate aids to being seen. This strikes me as totally different, and considerably more risky, than a conventional bicycle. Reminds me of the guy on his gofer traveling down the side of the left lane of the Great Western Highway at the Lapstone bends.Completely agree. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should. I've driven a lot of country roads over the years, wouldn't like the thought of riding a bicycle on one. Riding an recumbent sounds insane.

[Boringgeoff]

I had to hook the caravan up to wash the dust off yesterday so decided to take it out onto the highway for a brake test. Now I didn't do a full on emergency stop but from 70 kmh anchored pretty hard and pulled up in about 75 metres. Did that twice. This was on a straight flat stretch of the Great Eastern Highway, no traffic around.
Of course this didn't involve any reaction time as I decided when to brake, and that is the concerning issue that Ian has drawn my attention to. I usually stay at 90kmh or less when towing the 'van, much to the annoyance of other road users,
Bueller, you will probably be conversant with the stretch of road where the original incident occurred, Toodyay Road between Northam Rd and Clackline Rd turn offs.

Cheers,
Geoff.

[ian]

Hi Geoff

These are the guidelines / rules in NSW for drivers over 70.

70-74 years old
There are no special requirements if you’re between 70 and 74 years old, unless you hold a multi-combination (class MC) licence. If you hold an MC licence, you’ll need to pass a practical driving test every year to keep your MC licence, once you turn 70.

75-79 years old
When you reach 75 years old, you’ll need to have a medical review every year to keep your licence, regardless of the class of licence you hold. See Are you fit to drive? (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/licence/health/fit-to-drive.html) for more information.


At nearly 72 you are right in the mid-range of persons who, if they hold a MC class licence, need to pass an annual practical driving test.



Reaching back again into my work history -- after about age 55 there's a notable decline in a driver's reaction time and the ability to fully turn their head to look before entering an intersection and by the time a driver is about 70 the ability to really turn your head to look takes a very conscious effort.

[Boringgeoff]

Thanks Ian,
I'll have to check the regulations for WA, but don't need my MC these days. Having Rheumatoid Arthritis doesn't make head turning any easier.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[ian]

Having Rheumatoid Arthritis doesn't make head turning any easier.
Geoff
please do me a very big favour -- from here on can you make a very conscious effort to turn your head both ways before entering intersections or crossing railway lines.
the degeneration associated with RA is much worse than that associated with "normal aging"

[Chesand]

I was sent this some time ago.
It is worth playing with but form your own opinion of its worth.

The Reaction Time Test | JustPark (https://www.justpark.com/creative/reaction-time-test/)

[Boringgeoff]

Thanks Chesand,
I did the test three times and scored equivalent to ages, 45, 45 and 38. I feel younger already!
Ian,
I do some basic exercises when I get up in the morning, one of which is turning my head from side to side. When it's really quiet I can hear my neck creaking.

A few years ago the company I worked for got all their employees to do a light vehicle safe driving course to allow us to drive light vehicles on mine sites.
One of the tests was emergency braking on a gravel road. Called cadence braking, where you stand on the brake hard, then release to regain control then back on the brake again until safely pulled up. We were required to reach and maintain a given speed, 60 kmh I think, then brake when the instructor said stop. Of course we were ready for the order so the instructor had adopted a strategy that went something like this:
Instructor "go to 60, tell me when you reach it and maintain that speed until I say stop".
Geoff " we're at 60".
Instructor " Hey Geoff have you seen the latest Clint Eastwood movie STOP!"
I didn't get sucked in and got the best score of our crew, my kids and I were involved in speedway racing at the time and the instructor thought that that would have had a significant bearing on my ability.
I was in my mid forties at the time and had been truck driving for over 20 years.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[Chesand]

Thanks Chesand,
I did the test three times and scored equivalent to ages, 45, 45 and 38. I feel younger already!
Cheers,
Geoff.

Using the "Enter" key on the keyboard, I get similar results to you but using the mouse, I scored as a 54 to 57 year old. Either figure makes me happy but does not encourage me to be complacent about driving. I have told my kids that they must stop me driving if I reach the stage where they consider me unfit to continue driving. I hope that I have the good sense to give it up myself if and when the time comes as my father did after being booked for the first time after a life-time of driving buses and trucks.

[ian]

Geoff
given the time difference, I should have been in bed over two hours ago.


But I really need to emphasize the following

The Australian "design driver" is based in part on the ability of the "average" 35 year old male to turn their neck and eyes to detect approaching traffic.
The issue is that by the time the "design driver" turns about 60, their ability to detect movement in their peripheral field by turning their neck to look is greatly diminished. And by "greatly diminished" I mean a car load of 70 to 75 year olds were wiped out by a north bound heavy when leaving the "Dog on the Tucker Box" north of Gundagai to continue south towards Gundagai. The car load of "oldies" was crossing the north bound carriageway and just didn't see -- or perhaps didn't look for -- the approaching truck.
The crash I'm referring to happened about 10 years ago.
The Hume Highway in this location is divided carriageway with a wide, but not over-wide, median.

Changing the "design driver" to better reflect the abilities of the retiree population introduces behavioural complications such a propensity for sub-45 year olds to tail-gate as an older driver's reaction time is nowhere as good that of a 45 year old.

It's a Catch-22

[Fuzzie]

What's the Australian design Cyclist?

Ducks for cover. :C

[ian]

What's the Australian design Cyclist?
They
are 750 cm wide
need an operating width of 100 cm
are assumed to have an eye height of 140 cm -- for comparison, car drivers are assumed to have a lower eye height
are assumed to be 175 cm high
need an operating envelope that is 220 cm high


and, as for many car drivers, a risk adverse brain is not required.


in terms of biomechanics a cyclist is assumed to have the same dexterity as a car driver -- though kids under about 9 have still developing peripheral vision

[ian]

I was sent this some time ago.
It is worth playing with but form your own opinion of its worth.

The Reaction Time Test | JustPark (https://www.justpark.com/creative/reaction-time-test/)
here's another test
The Monkey Business Illusion - YouTube (https://youtu.be/IGQmdoK_ZfY)