Spindle Moulders?

[yowie]

Hi Guys,

Yes I am a real person and not Dino. Hopefully this post doesn't cause such a storm as the last one.

I inherited a Robrand Table saw with thicknesser and a spindle moulder. I am pretty Okay with the saw and thickinesser but don't really know much about the moulder, ie what they are used for, how to use them etc.

Any tips, techniques etc would be appreciated.

Cheers Yowie

[Just George]

A spindal molder is BIG router table/router. It spins slower than a router, cabinetmaking workshops and the like use them rather than using a smaller router/table.

[aussiecolector]

I bought one a while ago and used it a bit so far without loosing any fingers yet. You can get one piece cutters or heads with interchaingable blades which I bought for about $500 with 7 sets of blades. It is a lot faster cutting than router table but is a bit scary. Have you got any cutters with it?

[Greg Q]

You might want to get or borrow a copy of "The Shaper Book". ("Shaper" is the North American term for this machine). There is a lot to learn about cutters and safety. Especially safety.

I have had a spindle moulde for just over a year now, and I am thrilled with it, yet very respectful of the forces involved spinning those huge cutters and the ability to grab and self-feed the timber and my hands right into the machine during a mishap.

Insert tooling with limiters may be the way to go for you. The limiters are required by European law for hand-fed operations, and are there to ensure that if you do have an accident you'll only lose a couple of mm, not your whole hand.

My very next major purchase is going to be a power feeder, that's how leery of this machine I am.

Get the book, it will be a big help.

Cheers
Greg

[QldWoodie]

You might want to get or borrow a copy of "The Shaper Book".

Good suggestion. Or: Get the shaper DVD that Jet put out. Better than the book IMO though of necessity not as comprehensive.

I've had my spindle moulder for about 6 years, but mostly I use it as a table router .... the slower speed of the bits is not a big issue, and the advantages of a good fence and large table make it a very acceptable table router --- not to mention changing bits above the table.

As a spindle moulder it comes into its own when I am making multiple shaped parts -- "multiple" because you obviously need to be very careful about set-up and the set-up time and effort is generally not worth it for one-off shapes. I don't have a power feeder -- I always use some sort of template that I make with clamps and handles. A power feeder would be nice and I'm sure I'd use it in shaper mode more often if I had one.

Also -- Check out this thread: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=12833 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=12833)


Qw

[yowie]

Cheers fellas. Appreciate the advice and will take it on board. May have to start saving for some blades...

[Kev-in Melb]

Hi,
<O:p</O:p
Spindle Moulders are fantastic machines, even more so if can learn how to make your own cutters.

I would suggest that you learn how to set up and operate one correctly, as with all other machinery, these can be very dangerous if not used correctly.
<O:p</O:p

Nothing like the loud cracking noise of a cutter breaking, then finding the broken piece imbedded in a concrete wall on the opposite side of the work shop
:D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I came at spindle moulders from the other side; I used to operate a couple of industrial units, a 6/7-header & a 9-header, at a joinery many years ago. mainly for profiling window & door frames, although with a gang-blade up front they also turned out beading at a prodigious rate. ;) I was trained in full maintenance from minor servicing right thru to sharpening blades & profiling heads and have long wanted one at home...

...until I saw what's available (and affordable!) for home use. They terrify me! Literally! Knowing exactly what damage they're capable of and seeing how the cheaper units are constructed... [shudder]

I still wish one of the joinery jobs had found it's way into my shed, though. :D

[Richardwoodhead]

Skew, can you elaborate? I'm interested in the idea of a moulder, but am a little nervous because of all the bad things I've heard can happen. What does it take to have a safe unit? Why are the affordable ones so dangerous? What would you recommend? Any particular variety / make of moulder? Thanks,

Richard

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I can't say I've seriously researched what's available for the home environment nowadays, I've other tools vying for my money.

The beasty I used to operate was some 2m wide by about 15m long, not including in & outfeed tables. Each head driven by it's own 3phase motor, hydraulicly suspended timber feed. 'Twas some obscure post-war German brand... you really couldn't get much more industrial, nor more efficient. :) Just as well, 'cos you wouldn't believe some of what got fed through it. Needless to say, quickly learned about most things that could go wrong.

For flattish profiles we'd simply use a drum-cutter much like a thicknesser/jointer head and use appropriately profiled blades. For fancier profiles we'd use a stackable head and stack on appropriate cutting bits to create the profile. Some of the small single-head moulders I've seen around will handle both methods, others seem to be just one way or t'other. [shrug]

Both types are subject to breakage due to embedded materials, metal fatigue, whatever and, although the heads ran at lower RPM but were of bigger diameter, the blades actually travel at higher speed than a router. Bits coming off can do a lot of damage. Most jointer type blades are clamped across the whole width of the head so usually only small parts chip off. Stackables can disintegrate big-time though. Also, it's not just cutters... timber fractures too. Sooner or later a big chunk will fly out.

So, the first thing I'd look for is decent safety guards. Considerably more than just the token cutter-covers I saw on the last unit I remember looking at. I'm talking I want some serious steel in there. I'm not saying the "token" ones were unsafe; I'm sure they met the legislated safety specs nicely. But I will say that I wouldn't feel safe using it.

Secondly, any spindle-moulder removes a lot of material quickly. Even the smaller single-head units should... otherwise all you've got is an exoensive router. [shrug] This also means the kickbacks can make a tablesaw's look like lovetaps. IMHO a power feed really should be mandatory, any moulder without one is dangerous! This, of course, drives the $$$ up quickly, but... 'tis partly why I ain't in the market for one. Yet.

Thirdly, if you think a thicknesser spits out a lot of shavings, you ain't seen nothing yet. ;)

Hope that gives ya some idea of what safety features to look for, if not any real pointers at actual models...

[Richardwoodhead]

Skew, thanks for the insights. I'm now less enthusiastic about spindle moulders! I have a router table that I made by inserting a Triton router table top into my own shop made work bench / table. However, I'm finding the whole set-up is "under-done" in terms of the fence stability, accuracy, flat table etc. The Triton top has small dips & bumps in the metal edging etc, and the small MDF fence seems to move with router vibration - pretty ordinary, but it was cheap, so we get what we pay for. I've been drooling at pictures of high end commercial router tables with large FLAT steel beds and solid looking fences, etc. Then looked at spindle moulders and wondered if that would be an even better option. But now I'm learning there's more involved.

Do you have any thoughts on commercial router tables?

Your experience with INDUSTRIAL scale woodworking sounds very interesting. You must have seen some amazing stuff over the years.

Thanks,

Richard

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I like 'em, they have their place. In a commercial environment anyway, where quantity per time is the deciding factor. For a home workshop I think they're overkill, taking too much of the hands-on away.

You can do much the same thing on a good router, after all it is the same process, it just takes more passes. And probably one or six offcut test-pieces. ;)

A good cast iron table and solid fence is, as always, to be desired, especially if your going for accuracy with repeated passes. Better still if the fence (and hopefully the mitre-guide) can be calibrated independantly. Personally I'd like a belt-driven system instead of direct drive, but I hear that variable speed controlled jobs are pretty reliable now.

The same things apply whether we're talking dedicated table-routers or handhelds bolted into a router table. I guess it applies to tablesaws too. Same principles.

All in all, it's buy the best quality you can afford. Have you had a look at anything yet? What sorta price range are you looking at?


Your experience with INDUSTRIAL scale woodworking sounds very interesting. You must have seen some amazing stuff over the years.

I've seen some interesting things... including some spectacularly unsafe ones. :) And I've made some spectacularly expensive stuffups. Big enough that I'm glad I wasn't held financially responsible. :rolleyes:

[Ecc]

One other factor to consider is the price of cutters. There are two main types - the ones where you have a head and can replace blades in it with different profiles (Carbatec sells a CMT one for about $500) and the dedicated ones which are usually bigger but only do one thing as a rule. If you can get one for $300 you are doing well and they can cost a lot more. There's variations in types - some of the single purpose ones have brazed cutters and others are removable.

I use the moulder a lot for rebating but also to make skirting boards, picture rails etc. I've only touched on some stuff here - ask away if you have further questions. They are a good tool and can do things a router can't.

[Greg Q]

I was going to buy one of those CMT sets, but not now after reading a thread on this site showing the catastrophic failure of one of these. (All cutter head failures are catastrophic, more so if you are standing in the debris field:( ).

In the case of failures like this, it is evidence that alloy heads can have failure modes not found in the steel heads available elsewhere. I am awed
by my moulder enough already to add one more element of suspense:eek:

Greg

[hcbph]

I have had a small shaper (your spindle molder) for many years and it can do many things for you that can be a problem with a router table. One thing I especially like is making raised panel doors on it, it does it very well.

One thing I have done that I feel well about is getting a special guard for when I'm making doors. Delta sells a large plastic guard that's mounted on a bearing. It mounts over top of the cutter and helps keeps your hands away the cutter. It's worth it to reduce the risk.

Here's a photo of the guard I'm talking about.

Paul

[John Saxton]

http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/pagebin/pg000684.htm

Have a look at this site it gives an insight into spindle moulders and their safe applications.

The spindle moulder is apparently responsible for most major incidents with woodworking and appropriate training thru your local TAFE or similar institution is regarded as necessary.

NOT trying to alarm anyone here but it behoves anyone to go to a workshop and find out about these in operation to see the inherent problems if not cognisant with the full workings applied with them.

They can be a great asset but and only with the recognition of the potential to not only create good work with wood but injuries of major proportions.

Cheers:)

[Richardwoodhead]

Johnno, thanks. Good info. (Are you heading down to the Blacks timber auction on Bullant Drive, Forest Grove, tomorrow at 10:00am? Quite a bit of Jarrah apparently.)

Richard