Challenge 2020 - 2021 Doug3030

[doug3030]

I'm in for the planemaking challenge. Watch this space.

[Mountain Ash]

What planemaking challenge??

[doug3030]

What planemaking challenge??

Get with the program.

2020-2021 Plane Building Challenge (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f254/2020-2021-plane-building-challenge-237106)

[Oldgreybeard]

Here's the link (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f254/2020-2021-plane-building-challenge-237106)

[Mountain Ash]

Thanks guys. If you check the sub forum again you'll notice the nonsense has started :2tsup:

[doug3030]

Ok, I have my game plan all worked out.

I just worked it out that from 7 Sep to 26 March is exatly 200 days. Plenty of time to do what I need to do and do it right.

I am not going to reveal all of my plans up front. That would spoil the suspense. I will reveal a small amount at a time.

Step one is under way right now. Doing a big shed (no not THAT Big Shed) reorganisation after the workbench build. Everything in the shed is currently set up to optimise the necessary workflow for the workbench build.

Building the workbench was not all that I did since occupying this shed two years ago but it was the main focus and the setup of everything reflected that. Now I am reorganizing to create a smoother workflow for smaller projects working on a workbench, as opposed to working on (building) a workbench. There's probably a couple of days work in that and then I can start step 1 of the planemaking challenge.

Step 1 - Making some planemaking tools.

I will post some pics when I have done that.

[Mountain Ash]

And are you going to use a table cloth to protect your new bench? :p

(Matt will get it if no one else does)

[Pagie]

The work bench will be protected at all costs. Silk table cloth.

[Bushmiller]

And are you going to use a table cloth to protect your new bench? :p

(Matt will get it if no one else does)

If I had a work bench like Doug, SWMBO would snaffle it for a dining room table!

Good to see Doug take up the challenge.

Regards
Paul

[Colin62]

If I had a work bench like Doug, SWMBO would snaffle it for a dining room table!
Yet another reason why a good workbench needs to be heavy.

[Bushmiller]

Yet another reason why a good workbench needs to be heavy.

Colin

And just what is it about that statement that makes you think SWMBO will be deterred by such a trifling matter? Her attitude is "that is why I have a husband," and justifys this statement by saying she is pandering to my vanity.

It's a no win situation for one of us.

:(

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

I was cleaning up the shed today and I found this small piece of timber that might or might not be gidgee.

480531

Regardless of its dubious origin, it's future is now determined.

It is now destined to become the head of a plane hammer.

A little bit of shaping and a handle and ...

[Simplicity]

I’m saying nothing
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200910/9b8eaea0a6128dd0ea2841153032df07.jpg

Cheers Matt.

[Cklett]

I’m saying nothing
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200910/9b8eaea0a6128dd0ea2841153032df07.jpg

Cheers Matt.What the....

If that's your smoother you are making I hope you are posting some in progress photos soon.

Looks interesting.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Simplicity]

What the....

If that's your smoother you are making I hope you are posting some in progress photos soon.

Looks interesting.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Na that’s plane number 2 out of my stable, but not my competition Plane.
I put a write up about it when it’s done,
Sorry for the high jack Doug.

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

Sorry for the high jack Doug.

Are you talking about a high-angled jack plane or what you did to my thread? :rolleyes:

[Simplicity]

Are you talking about a high-angled jack plane or what you did to my thread? :rolleyes:

Immmmm,

That’s Sally’s fault.

Cheers Matt

[doug3030]

In case anyone is wondering what I have been doing for the past few days but were too polite to ask, I hve been busy, but not necessarily with the challenge.

I have ordered in some steel to make some blades for one of the other participants.
I also ordered some tools for my milling machine so that I can make some tools for plane-making.

We got a new back fence so I grabbed all the old Redgum fenceposts from the old fence and salvaged what I could from them.
I didn't set out to process the redgum today. I was going to grab a Sheoak log to cut a few potential plane bodies out of but the fenceposts were on top of the sheoak so, as you do ...
Not sure yet if the sheoak will be the timber for my final entry but I want to make a few practice runs first anyway.
Some of the fenceposts were beautiful well figured Redgum and some was very ordinary.
Out of some of the not-so-nice stuff I managed to find some nice little bits to make a few plane hammers with.
I also have a wheely-bin full of rejects and planer shavings.

Looking forward to getting some of my deliveries so that I can get on with things.

[doug3030]

I was planning to be out in the shed this afternoon, for two reasons.

Firstly I need to make a couple of blades for Bernard Zhang (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f316/challenge-2020-2021-bernard-zhang-237177)'s challenge entry

Secondly to hunt up some more bits for my own plane-making efforts, skill-building projects for my challenge entry and making a few of the necessary tools. As I am going to be building a few wooden bodied planes in the next little while I am finishing a dovetail saw I started a while back, as I think I mentioned elsewhere, and making some plane floats. I also have a few ideas of some jigs and fixtures I want to make to simplify workholding and ensure accuracy and repeatability.

So much for what I was planning to do. :rolleyes:

The current temperature outside according to my little weatherstation sitting 4.5 metres above my back deck, is 4.9 degrees, "feels like" minus 1.2. I know that it would take all my heaters a few hours to get the inside temperature up to something comfortable to work in and 6000 watts of electricity for the whole afternoon to still be cold in the shed did not appeal so I am sitting in my lounge room at a comfortable 22 degrees. :cool:

So, I have been researching planemakers floats for a while and thought I would share some of the info I have found, because others might like to look into it too.

First up I found a video by Walter Sorrells, a well-known American knife maker who dabbles in woodwork, sort of like me, a woodworker who dabbles in knife-making. I relate well to his no-nonsense approach to his craft and since we have a fairly good overlap of similar workshop equipment I also like his methods of work. If you watch the video you will find out that he is possibly the only person in the world with worse woodturning skills than me but he gets the job done and that's what matters. He makes a joinery float in the video but what I am interested in here is the techniques as it is really only the shape of he blank that differs. So here's how a knifemaker makes a float. Unusual Woodworking Tool! Making a Plane Maker's Float - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQZL3Rji-u8) Enjoy!

Here's an article from a publication called The Tool Shed The Planemaker Float (http://craftsofnj.org/index.php/the-planemaker-float). It goes into a bit about history of how they were used to be made, including why you never see them at old tool sales etc and other helpful background information.

Here's a series of three article on making plane floats by Joe McGlynn from 2012.
Making Plane Floats, Part 1 | McGlynn on Making (https://mcglynnonmaking.com/2012/09/02/making-plane-floats-part-1/)
Making Plane Floats, Part 2 | McGlynn on Making (https://mcglynnonmaking.com/2012/09/03/making-plane-floats-part-2/)
https://mcglynnonmaking.com/2012/09/04/making-plane-floats-part-3/
A lot of good information there including some plans for floats and a skinny mortise chisel to make to fit wooden handles to them, linked here. https://mcglynnonmaking.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/floatpatterns.pdf

Here's a few words of wisdom on the subject from Caleb James
http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-planemaker-floats-do-you-need-for.html

I also have the full version of this video by Todd Hurrli on DVD https://vimeo.com/58164515. I also have the sequel on making a custom made ogee molding plane, which follows on from the first video. Obviously I can't post a link to these but I do recommend these videos as a great resource for side-escapement planes.

That's probably enough links to get started with. There's heaps of stuff out there once you learn not to google "plane floats" unless you want to land an aircraft on a lake. "Woodworking plane floats" or "Planemakers floats" seems to turn up more of the content you want.

Anyway I hope this is of use to some of my fellow competitors. There seems to be a lot of sharing of knowledge within the group which is great. We are all learning stuff as we go and it is good to see the spirit of cooperation is stronger than the spirit of competitiveness. The challenge is a great idea and is already lifting people to a new level.

Hopefully the weather will warm up over the weekend and I will be able to put some of my new-found knowledge into use as well as finishing Bernard's blades.

[Bushmiller]

The current temperature outside according to my little weatherstation sitting 4.5 metres above my back deck, is 4.9 degrees, "feels like" minus 1.2. I know that it would take all my heaters a few hours to get the inside temperature up to something comfortable to work in and 6000 watts of electricity for the whole afternoon to still be cold in the shed did not appeal so I am sitting in my lounge room at a comfortable 22 degrees. :cool:




What?! It was 29° C up here. Too hot to work.

Thanks for all the links. I will wade through them. I'm sure there is lots of information there.

Regards
Paul

[Mountain Ash]

Hi Doug. A little while ago I posted this Is this a rasp/file/riffel/??? (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/rasp-file-riffel-231030) and thanks to fellow forumites I found out what they were. I have since made some plane floats from them and they work okay. No photos sorry but I did turn some handles to make things more comfy. Another possibility maybe (I got my stock from my uncle). Unfortunately I haven't got him anymore.

[doug3030]

Hi Doug. A little while ago I posted this Is this a rasp/file/riffel/??? (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/rasp-file-riffel-231030) and thanks to fellow forumites I found out what they were. I have since made some plane floats from them and they work okay. No photos sorry but I did turn some handles to make things more comfy. Another possibility maybe (I got my stock from my uncle). Unfortunately I haven't got him anymore.

Thanks for the info MA.
However, one of these arrived in the post the other day.
481818
Despite the smaller included frames in that picture,no, I'm not looking at an infill plane (well not this week anyway) :no:

The plan is to tilt the head on the mill by about 30 degrees and mill teeth into the plane float blanks I will cut from the o1 tool steel I bought for that purpose back in the days when o1 was not so hard to get as it is now. :~

It might take a little bit of playing around with angles and things to make it work right but since we still have 179 days til 26 March 2021 so what else would I be doing if I wasn't doing that? I might even take this opportunity to fit the DRO kit I bought last year onto the mill.

[Simplicity]

Thanks for the info MA.
However, one of these arrived in the post the other day.
481818
Despite the smaller included frames in that picture,no, I'm not looking at an infill plane (well not this week anyway) :no:

The plan is to tilt the head on the mill by about 30 degrees and mill teeth into the plane float blanks I will cut from the o1 tool steel I bought for that purpose back in the days when o1 was not so hard to get as it is now. :~

It might take a little bit of playing around with angles and things to make it work right but since we still have 179 days til 26 March 2021 so what else would I be doing if I wasn't doing that? I might even take this opportunity to fit the DRO kit I bought last year onto the mill.

Nice Bit Doug?
I’m envious of your mill:-)

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

I’m envious of your mill:-)

Well, Matt, I do recall that when you came over and helped me set up the mill and lathe on their stands when my back was even worse than it is now, I did say you could come and use them if you wanted. But of course, we hadn't even heard of Covid-19 back then, had we? But once we can travel again the offer still stands, if you want.

[Simplicity]

Well, Matt, I do recall that when you came over and helped me set up the mill and lathe on their stands when my back was even worse than it is now, I did say you could come and use them if you wanted. But of course, we hadn't even heard of Covid-19 back then, had we? But once we can travel again the offer still stands, if you want.


Doug,
Unfortunately if I use your Mill, my desire will deepen.

I have to stay strong and resist the force.

I’m off to study Star Wars again:-(((.

Cheers Matt.

[Aussiephil]

Thanks for the info MA.

The plan is to tilt the head on the mill by about 30 degrees and mill teeth into the plane float blanks I will cut from the o1 tool steel I bought for that purpose back in the days when o1 was not so hard to get as it is now. :~

It might take a little bit of playing around with angles and things to make it work right but since we still have 179 days til 26 March 2021 so what else would I be doing if I wasn't doing that? I might even take this opportunity to fit the DRO kit I bought last year onto the mill.

Mount the DRO kit, you will not regret it :)

i have a alternative for you if you would like me to print up some custom parallels that are angled to your desired angle like i have for cutting the initial bevel angle on my blade.
I would move the angle area to be better centered in the vice and raise it higher as it needs to extend just past the top of the vice unlike a normal parallel.
481833

I got my DRO mounted a few weeks back ... fun times but worth the effort

481834

[doug3030]

Mount the DRO kit, you will not regret it :)

I can see that job rising rapidly up the list of things to do in the shed. Last month it was sitting at number 2816, but it is now at about 14.


i have a alternative for you if you would like me to print up some custom parallels that are angled to your desired angle like i have for cutting the initial bevel angle on my blade.
I would move the angle area to be better centered in the vice and raise it higher as it needs to extend just past the top of the vice unlike a normal parallel.

Thanks for the offer. I'm trying to get my head around how that could work.
If I tilt the mill then I only have to set the z axis once to do the whole job with the x and y axes. As soon as you place the blank at an angle I can't see a way to do it without moving all three axes for each tooth. What am I missing?

481834

I have the Optimum BF-20 too. Do you have the matching lathe as well?

[Aussiephil]

Thanks for the offer. I'm trying to get my head around how that could work.
If I tilt the mill then I only have to set the z axis once to do the whole job with the x and y axes. As soon as you place the blank at an angle I can't see a way to do it without moving all three axes for each tooth. What am I missing?

Yeah if your doing teeth then i can't see how it would work either so scratch that idea however they work well if you want to bevel a surface, i used the 3deg ones to surface cut the slope on the little blade for the toy kanna and the 25deg to cut the main bevel. I think it saved a little time on a grinder :)





I have the Optimum BF-20 too. Do you have the matching lathe as well?

Nope no matching lathe...

Depending on what DRO kit you have i may be able to supply you some mounting parts and some ideas from how I got it mounted.... i found the hardest bit was the Y axis due to the slope on the bed. i have x and y moving the scales and z moves the head.

[Aussiephil]

Edit: double post, sorry

[doug3030]

Depending on what DRO kit you have i may be able to supply you some mounting parts and some ideas from how I got it mounted.... i found the hardest bit was the Y axis due to the slope on the bed. i have x and y moving the scales and z moves the head.

I have the Optimum brand one D695 - DRO5 3-Axis Optimum Digital Readout Counter - 1mm | Hare & Forbes Machineryhouse (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/d695)

[Aussiephil]

I have the Optimum brand one D695 - DRO5 3-Axis Optimum Digital Readout Counter - 1mm | Hare & Forbes Machineryhouse (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/d695)

Ah, that should be a fairly straight bolt on process then :)

Cheers
Phil

[Mountain Ash]

Thanks for the info MA.
However, one of these arrived in the post the other day.
481818
Despite the smaller included frames in that picture,no, I'm not looking at an infill plane (well not this week anyway) :no:

The plan is to tilt the head on the mill by about 30 degrees and mill teeth into the plane float blanks I will cut from the o1 tool steel I bought for that purpose back in the days when o1 was not so hard to get as it is now. :~

It might take a little bit of playing around with angles and things to make it work right but since we still have 179 days til 26 March 2021 so what else would I be doing if I wasn't doing that? I might even take this opportunity to fit the DRO kit I bought last year onto the mill.

Hi Doug. That is definitely the way to go. One disadvantage with using the body files became apparent when trying to make a skinny float, there's just not much meat to it. A milling machine opens up a whole world of potential.

[doug3030]

Mount the DRO kit, you will not regret it :)

...

I got my DRO mounted a few weeks back ... fun times but worth the effort

...

Depending on what DRO kit you have i may be able to supply you some mounting parts and some ideas from how I got it mounted.... i found the hardest bit was the Y axis due to the slope on the bed. i have x and y moving the scales and z moves the head.

I have the Optimum brand one D695 - DRO5 3-Axis Optimum Digital Readout Counter - 1mm | Hare & Forbes Machineryhouse (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/d695)

Hi Phil,

I have started mounting the DRO kit. As I posted earlier, I got the kit that supposedly matches the mill, which you would think, with the German influence of the company that attention to detail would be perfect and the kit would contain ready-to-fit brackets. Well that's what I THOUGHT I was paying the big money for. :no: :doh:

There are no mounting brackets at all. :rolleyes:

Having spent a reasonable amount of time considering the problem with the assistance of a quantity of the usual amber brain lubrication fluid, I am pretty sure I can cobble something simple together for the x and z axes. But as you said, the y axis is a bit of a bitch. :banghead::banghead:

So if you could find the time to take some pictures of the mounting brackets you came up with, I would greatly appreciate it.

Interested to compare x and z brackets you have made with what is currently in my mind in case you have come up with something better but my primary interest is in how you solved the y axis problem, as every solution I have come up with so far looks far more complex than I feel it should have to be.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide. :2tsup:

[Aussiephil]

Hey Doug no worries I can do but not till later on Tuesday as we are away for a long weekend and won’t be home till then... my DRO is slim line optical scales but most of the concepts should translate to the magnetic scales.
the optical scales have to be mounted to remove as much possibility as you can of swarm, oils etc getting into the scale.
for the y axis my steps went like
measure height of scale and read head to get vertical space needed
take this and work out stand off spacing for the scale from the table
this in turn locates the mount position under the read head for setting up a fixed bracket that bolts to base and the read head.
‘I’ll grab a bunch of photos of all the axis on Tuesday
cheers
phil

[doug3030]

I’ll grab a bunch of photos of all the axis on Tuesday

Awesome. Thanks Phil. :hpydans::hpydans2::hpydans::hpydans2::hpydans:

[Aussiephil]

Awesome. Thanks Phil. :hpydans::hpydans2::hpydans::hpydans2::hpydans:

Hey Doug,

I started a new thread so we didn't clutter up your plane thread further.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f18/ideas-installing-dro-onto-optima-bf20-20-mini-mill-237869#post2212803

I couldn't get the the mill properly today to get the Z axis cover off so that is tomorrows job

Cheers
Phil

[doug3030]

I started a new thread so we didn't clutter up your plane thread further.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f18/ideas-installing-dro-onto-optima-bf20-20-mini-mill-237869#post2212803

That's very considerate of you Phil. :2tsup:

I will comment on it in that thread too. That way it will all be together for the next person who wants to do this. Mine will naturally be a bit different from yours mainly due to differing equipment we have available to assist with the job. I am still not completely decided on how mine will go together but I now have a working setup to look at. Thanks.

[doug3030]

Well it's been nearly a fortnight since my last post, which is not really surprising since that's not vastly different from the last time I did anything much at all. My back has decided that it doesn't want me doing any lifting, bending or staying in the one spot for too long, or moving too often either.

I have done some really minor thing such as the Z axis on my milling machine but the X and Y axes require too much bending to do them right now. I've done a couple of projects on the wood lathe because they can be standing up with small gentle movements of the back so that is probably actually helping me.

The pain is getting less slowly so I will persevere with doing what I can and leaving what I can't until I can do it.

Once I get the mill back together I can make the plane floats I need and maybe, if my back allows it, I might even get to start on the plane-making proper.

For those who are sending in blades for heat treat, that is something I can still do with minimum discomfort so as jobs come in the turnaround should be timely.

[Picko]

Stick with the turning for a while Doug. I find it's the second best thing in my shed for my back. The best of course comes from the fridge and the two combined are magic.

[Pagie]

I hope your back gets better soon. Mine used to be bad when I was bricklaying. I stopped that and mine got better in time. I hope yours does too.

[doug3030]

I hope your back gets better soon. Mine used to be bad when I was bricklaying. I stopped that and mine got better in time. I hope yours does too.

Thanks Pagie, I have not had a flare-up like this one for a couple of years. I thought the worst was over. But just like Covid in Melbourne it just keeps coming back.

[Simplicity]

Hoping the health and the back is well soon Doug,
We miss your sarcasm here.

But at least your having plenty of design build meetings I hope.

Cheers Matt.

[Mountain Ash]

Hope the back keeps improving. All my teachers at trade school seemed to have bad backs, it's the one thing I worry about in my game. Glad that the turning can help.

[doug3030]

Well it's been nearly a fortnight since my last post, which is not really surprising since that's not vastly different from the last time I did anything much at all. My back has decided that it doesn't want me doing any lifting, bending or staying in the one spot for too long, or moving too often either.

Thanks everyone for the kind wishes and helpful advice.

My back is feeling much better today and I plan to spend the afternoon in the shed.

It seems the back problem was caused by me listening to one of my medical specialists, who told me to stop taking my magnesium supplements as they were not doing me any good. Turns out that they were not doing me any good as far as her speciality was concerned but were essential for the other parts of my body. :rolleyes:

So now that I have been back on the Magnesium for 24 hours the improvement is amazing, but some of the credit should go to the anti-inflammatories my GP prescribed.

I will still be taking things easy for a few days but at least I am back in the shed. :2tsup:

[Ironwood]

Good to hear Doug :2tsup:

[Mountain Ash]

:2tsup: I agree

[doug3030]

I thought that it was time to drop in and let everyone know I am still around and have not abandoned the plane challenge.

My back is much better than it was but I am hoping for a bit more improvement yet in the near future.

However, life has been redirecting my time (shed-time and time in general) in other directions at the moment. Much of this was due to projects for my Veterans knifemaking group Forge Through (https://www.forgethrough.org/) which I needed to have ready in time for a gathering which we held last weekend near Nowra. Now that it is over I thought I would be getting straight into some plane making.

Buuuuuut - last Tuesday the Voltage Sensitive Relay in the back of the ute decided that 17 years was about as long as it wanted to work for and handed in it's resignation in fine style - See photo.

486576

I need to do some repairs and upgrading on the 12 volt system in the ute after leaving a large plume of smoke billowing out of the canopy as I drove along Keilor Rd Essendon. Apparently a DC-DC charger it the 2020 equivalent of the VSR I installed in the 12 volt system back in 2003 so I invested in one, which arrived in the post today - yes, Aust Post delivered on a Sunday!!!:D. I ordered the charger on Thursday from a place in Sydney as I knew if I ordered it from Melbourne it would have probably gone to Brisbane and back before they could deliver it.

My next project now has to be upgrading the 12 volt system as I need it going to run the car fridge as I need it to keep some of my medications refrigerated when I am away from home. Without a working car fridge it effectively puts me back in lockdown again. :rolleyes:

Bunnings run on the program for tomorrow to pick up some plywood for making a new battery box and a couple of days working on the car before I get into the plane making. There's always something coming up to get in the way. But by a quick calculation I think I still have just under 100 days to get something on the judges table so I'm not sweating it yet.

So that's what is happening with me. I hope to be able to post some plane progress photos in the new year.

Meanwhile Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to those who celebrate them and best wishes to those who celebrate other religious or cultural festivals at this time of year. :2tsup:

[Chief Tiff]

Good to hear you’re (almost!) back on track; will Jools be posting again soon as well?

[doug3030]

will Jools be posting again soon as well?

Thanks Chief, Jools will likely start on her entry in the new year too. Right now she is distracted with her new embroidery machine that ate the $3000 that I had put aide for my Nova Voyager DVR Drill Press | Carbatec (https://www.carbatec.com.au/nova-dvr-drill-press). The damned thing can't even drill a half-inch hole but she is enjoying it anyway. :rolleyes:

[Sheets]

Good to hear you're doing well. Hope your vehicular repairs go smoothly. Poor cats.

All the best over the "holidays" - back to work on the plane in the new year is something to anticipate with pleasure. Lots of time for that anyway.

Steve

[Pagie]

Merry Christmas to you both. I'm glad your truck did not catch fire, it would be more work to fix. Glad your back is getting a bit better.

[Simplicity]

Glad to see you back Doug,
Hope the melted spaghetti issue is not to taxing.

Cheers Matt.

[Oldgreybeard]

Looks like we will have a battle to the finishing line. I had my steroid injection last week and the neck and shoulder is slowly improving - anticipate getting going again mid January.

Cheers
Bob

[doug3030]

I'm still up to my neck in other projects but it's time to make a start on the Plane Competition. If I am really lucky I might get a fair bit done before my back goes out again.

The blade is what cuts the timber. All the rest is just bells and whistles to hold the blade where you want it and give you something to hang on to. So I'm starting out with the blades.

5mm thick o1 tool steel should do the job.

[Simplicity]

Excellent too see a start Doug,
We have been anticipating your arrival full time.

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

This is something I made a few years ago which I pulled out today to help with the plane-making build.

It has been kind of a WIP since it was built.

While it has been fully functional it was built as a true experimental prototype, so every time I use it I do a little work to clean up some of the cosmetic issues. There's not much left to fix now and before I put it away after this use I hope to spray it black and call it finished.

489102

[Cklett]

I am not sure if I understand what it is?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Sheets]

Something to do with flattening plane blade edges?

[Simplicity]

Um I’m in the confused corner as well Doug,
are you teasing us with some fantastic idea that we have no idea about.

It’s not nice to pick on simple folk!!.[emoji6]

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

Doug, are you teasing us with some fantastic idea that we have no idea about.

:exactly::whs:

More clues to follow. :D

[Bushmiller]

Doug

It's looking a lot like a device for folding or bending metal, but I am waiting for the clues before I say anything. :rolleyes:

Regards
Paul

[Chief Tiff]

I’m going to posit that it is a jig designed to hold knife blades for shaping and sharpening and that you are going to adapt it for your plane blade.

Do I win $5?

[doug3030]

I’m going to posit that it is a jig designed to hold knife blades for shaping and sharpening and that you are going to adapt it for your plane blade.

Do I win $5?

So close and yet so far - no cigar, no $5.

[Cklett]

Is it a jig to grind a defined bevel on a piece of steel, e.g. plane blade, on a linisher or alike?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[doug3030]

Is it a jig to grind a defined bevel on a piece of steel, e.g. plane blade, on a linisher or alike?

That's pretty close. It is designed to achieve exactly that using two specific items in my shed to precision grind chisels and plane blades.

I will post some photos and further descriptions a bit later. It works with my Radiusmaster and Veritas mk II sharpening system.

Well done Cklett with an honorable mention to Chief Tiff.

[doug3030]

Here's what a Radiusmaster looks like:

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And this is the Veritas Sharpening System MK II:
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And this is how it looks when you put the jig pictured above on the Radiusmaster in place of the toolrest, with the brass roller removed from the Veritas jig and the stainless steel pin on my jig placed through the holes where the roller used to be. The Veritas jig is not modified in any permanent way. Once it is removed from the radiusmaster and the roller replaced it is good to go as the manufacturer intended and nobody would know the difference.
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When working all this out, one of the things to work out was how to set up the jig to keep the angle ground on the radiusmaster, with the pin in place of the roller, the same as when the Veritas tool is being used conventionally. Veritas built in cam adjustment to the roller for primary, secondary and tertiary bevels. Since my jig is for grinding all I am interested in is "matching" the primary bevel angle.

When I say "matching" I mean "almost matching" as I found it is best to grind the bevel at an angle about half a bee's d!ck lower than the primary bevel the Veritas makes when used conventionally. This ensures that when you are finished grinding and move onto the sharpening stones with the roller back in place that you are polishing the bevel starting from the cutting edge, not the heel, but only just. If you try to match it exactly then if you are out by the wrong direction you have a bigger job ahead. Whereas if you are under by a bit it doesn't matter. You just have to polish the start of the bevel and catch up the rest on subsequent polishings.

For those who want the full details of the measurements, I found that the height of the axle in the veritas tool with the roller set fro primary bevel was 5.2mm. That means that when I set the jig on the radiusmaster before attaching the Veritas tool I set the distance of the stainless steel rod from the grinding belt using a spacer. The mechanism to attach the toolrest to the Radiusmaster allows for positioning the toolrest at different distances from the belt. I duplicated this on my jig. I set the spacing by using a piece of 5mm flat ground steel between the grinding belt and the pin and fine-tune with feeler gauges.

You need to adjust the position of the jig to allow for different grits of belts as coarser belts are thicker than finer ones. This is not a real inconvenience because pre-heat treat I grind with 60 grit belts and post heat treat I grind with much finer belts. Changing the belts and readjusting the spacing takes about a minute.

More to follow later. It's getting a bit long.

[Chief Tiff]

That’s damned ingenious! I had spotted the Veritas roller in your original photo but didn’t think to connect the two together.

[doug3030]

That’s damned ingenious! I had spotted the Veritas roller in your original photo but didn’t think to connect the two together.

There were a few clues I placed in the first photo in among all the bench clutter. The tongue that you use to set the angles is there too.

Well spotted.

[doug3030]

More to follow later. It's getting a bit long.


This pic shows the jig in use. I made the jig wide enough to be able to take the widest blade the Veritas tool will hold and allow it to be traversed across the belt rather than stay in the one place. The sparks are travelling upwards because I run the belt "backwards" when using this jig because it minimises the risk of the blade digging in and tearing the belt. It also seems to give better control over the pressure applied to the blade, tending to lift it off the belt rather than pulling it in against the pivot point.
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Here, the blade is ground ready for heat treating. You can see that the edge is left a bit thick at this stage to avoid problems in the forge that occur if the blade is already sharpened to a thin edge. After heat treating it will go back on the grinder and the edge will be sharpened with a finer belt or belts before finer polishing on waterstones.
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The flat side of the blade shows some signs of getting a bit warm during the grinding. This is not a problem because at this stage the blade is in an annealed state.That means that it is softer so the grinding is quicker and there is no possibility of drawing the temper because it has not been hardened yet. When I fire up the forge this blade will be heated to 800 degrees C and held at that temperature for a few minutes before quenching. Any heating from grinding at this stage of production is therefore irrelevant.
489140

I included this last (bad) photo to show a little safety feature I built in to the system. At the top of the photo you can see the curved black shape of the Veritas tool. You can see that the bottom of the tool rests against the central metal plate of my homemade jig. That ensures that the back end of the Veritas tool will not fall into contact with the grinding belt. As long as there is a blade clamped into the Veritas tool and the jig is correctly spaced from the belt the only way that any part of the setup other than the tip of the blade can come in contact with the belt is if the belt breaks.
489141

The skinny blade in the jig in the last photo is for the second plane of the pair I am making.

[Chief Tiff]

In your cluttered workbench picture I saw the grooving plane but didn’t make the required connection....

So you’re making a double-ended match plane; a wooden version of the Stanley 148?

$5...$5...$5 :p

Edit: Belay my last; you’re making a pair of match planes! That’ll teach me to read the post properly.... Still; $5 is $5:wink:

[doug3030]

In your cluttered workbench picture I saw the grooving plane but didn’t make the required connection....

So you’re making a double-ended match plane; a wooden version of the Stanley 148?

$5...$5...$5 :p

Edit: Belay my last; you’re making a pair of match planes! That’ll teach me to read the post properly.... Still; $5 is $5:wink:

Looks like all my secrets have been discovered now. :rolleyes:

A future project is "The Annarchists Toolchest". These planes, being made specifically for use on 7/8" stock, will assist with this build.

Chief, do you want to risk the $5 that you won and try for the holiday? The question is: What timber will I be using for the plane bodies?

[doug3030]

Two blades in the forge for heat treating. Mine this time. :q

489184

Heat treating went well. Blades are in the tempering oven for their first tempering cycle.

After 8pm I can go out and start the second tempering cycle and by then the forge and quenching oil should be cool enough to put away. Final grinding and honing tomorrow and then that's the blades done and on to the plane bodies. :2tsup:

[Chief Tiff]

Chief, do you want to risk the $5 that you won and try for the holiday? The question is: What timber will I be using for the plane bodies?

As I’m still waiting for Matt’s man in Delhi to cover Paul’s commitments I reckon it’s worth a punt (providing that the holiday is nowhere near Melbourne, obviously).

Traditionally the bodies would have been made from quarter sawn beech, however that timber isn’t overly common down under. I’m going to hazard a guess at Tassie Oak/Victorian Ash

[Bushmiller]

As I’m still waiting for Matt’s man in Delhi to cover Paul’s commitments I reckon it’s worth a punt (providing that the holiday is nowhere near Melbourne, obviously).

Traditionally the bodies would have been made from quarter sawn beech, however that timber isn’t overly common down under. I’m going to hazard a guess at Tassie Oak/Victorian Ash

Chief

That's not a bad guess at all and probably right on the money with the Beech, but should you be careful what you wish for?

Where is the holiday? One person for one night in New York? Runner up prize, two nights for one person in New York (flights not included) :C

Regards
Paul

PS: Masks not supplied.

[Simplicity]

Doug,
Please explain the reference too two blades two planes I keep reading about, are you up to something?.
Have you got your own plane of world domination happening[emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

Where is the holiday? One person for one night in New York? Runner up prize, two nights for one person in New York (flights not included) :C

First prize is a week in Hoppers Crossing staying in Doug3030's shed.

Second prize is a two weeks in Hoppers Crossing staying in Doug3030's shed.

Provide your own transport, food, drinks, masks, etc. You might get the use of our camping mattress if I can find it in all the mess.

Oh yeah - the timber vault is out of bounds.

[doug3030]

I got some more done on the plane build today. Not a real lot but it was something.

Because nearly all my larger machinery is on wheels, I have a certain amount of setup to do to prepare stock. Typically stock preparation starts out with getting the 21" bandsaw, 8" longbed jointer and 15" thicknesser out from their hiding spots in between the timber storage shelves and set up down the middle of the shed. Once the parts are cut and dressed to size, those machines go back home and the tablesaw, router table, drill press and belt and disk sander take up their positions for the next stage.

So today I set up to prepare the blanks for the plane bodies. But that was as far as I got with the planes because I thought that while I was set up for breaking down materials I might as well get some prep for another couple of projects done as well to save rearranging the shed again another day. Therefore, progress was limited to production of two rectangular blocks. Nothing actually worthy of a photo yet.

Not sure if I will get shed time tomorrow since it will be Valentines day, but I might be able to do some work on the challenge thanks to the Victorian Lockdown meaning we can't go out for dinner or even a drive around. If I get the soles profiled and the wedges cut and fitted it will be worth a photo.

Let's see what tomorrow brings.

[Aussiephil]

Hey Doug,
any progress is good progress at this stage….
I got a section cut out of the leaf spring today and eventually got smoke coming from the mill, but it seems fine once it cooled off :)
a block of wood must be photo worthy anytime on a woodwork forum :)
cheers
phil

[doug3030]

a block of wood must be photo worthy anytime on a woodwork forum :)

Maybe so - but there's people out there hanging out to see what timber I am using. :hahaha::evillaugh:

[doug3030]

Maybe so - but there's people out there hanging out to see what timber I am using. :hahaha::evillaugh:

Ok, I got a little bit done today again. The soles are profiled but still might need some minor adjustments.

489605

Once the wedges are made, the bed and breast lines cut and chiseled out, they should be able to make a shaving with some adjustments of course.

Now I suppose I had better name them before anyone else comes up with something I don't like.

This pair of matching Tongue and Groove planes made for 7/8" stock, as required for the toolchest build I will be starting shortly are henceforth known as Double Trouble.

Of course there is a backstory to the name but even after all the innuendo going on in here over some of the names I doubt I would get away with telling it all on the forum. Let's just say that it was the collective nickname I used for a couple of young ladies I was well acquainted with back when I was a super-fit super-soldier and chick-magnet in my early 20's. Like the planes, they used to like working together as a team. There's plenty of obvious puns and innuendos there for anyone who is brave enough to use them.

[Chief Tiff]

I am shocked... :)(...that you didn’t pick Tag-Team! :p

Victorian Blackwood?

[Mountain Ash]

Hi Doug. Really like the look of your planes. I think I might like to make myself a pair very soon

[doug3030]

I am shocked... :)(...that you didn’t pick Tag-Team! :p

More like All in Together. They were a couple before I met them and were still together after we parted ways. Kind of goes with the description of the planes. :wink:


Victorian Blackwood?

Queen Ebony :2tsup:

[Simplicity]

Double Trouble, with sneaky little pics, immmm

Doug, I sense your are up too something!!
Looking good tho [emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

[doug3030]

One day I might overcome my obsession with dense exotic timbers that are too hard to work by conventional means.

Queen Ebony is bloody hard. But once these plane bodies are made they will outlast the human race. :rolleyes:

They will probably also destroy most of the tools I use to make them. :~

Today I made a little jig to hold the plane bodies while I try to shape it with nuclear-powered tools. :o

489659

Just a simple frame and wedge setup that clamps into the tailvise on my bench.

As you can see I made a wedge and started cutting out the bed and breast on the grooving plane. I need to go a bit deeper there yet but I am leaving that until I have made the tonguing plane. This is because the blade of the tonguing plane will rest hard up against the fence but the blade on the grooving plane floats away from the fence, so it is the logical one to adjust to the other. So once the tonguing plane is done, I finish sinking the blade and wedge into the grooving plane little by little until I have a perfect fit. Well that's the game plan anyway. :2tsup:

I might have to do another couple of projects that have come to the top of the pile before I do any more on Double Trouble. If there are no more updates this week, that's why.

[doug3030]

... I made a wedge and started cutting out the bed and breast on the grooving plane. I need to go a bit deeper there yet but I am leaving that until I have made the tonguing plane. This is because the blade of the tonguing plane will rest hard up against the fence but the blade on the grooving plane floats away from the fence, so it is the logical one to adjust to the other. So once the tonguing plane is done, I finish sinking the blade and wedge into the grooving plane little by little until I have a perfect fit. Well that's the game plan anyway. :2tsup:

I might have to do another couple of projects that have come to the top of the pile before I do any more on Double Trouble. If there are no more updates this week, that's why.

So here we are four months later ...

I had put the box with all the plane bits in it under the bench when the people who said there would be no time extensions granted everyone a blanket time extension because that meant I had time to concentrate on other more pressing projects that I had put aside to free up time for the plane challenge.

Just to reiterate, the reason I was making "Double Trouble" was because I needed to make a tongue and groove joint for the lid of the toolchest I am making and I had been looking, unsuccessfully, for a Stanley 48 for a few years. So with Double Trouble nearing completion, this fell from the sky and hit me on the head.

496094

Well actually it came up for sale on the forum for a fair price and in good condition so naturally I bought it. After some consideration of making another plane for the challenge, I decided that Double Trouble, though now no longer as much in demand, still needed to be finished. (The lollipop came with the timber-grain material that Jools just bought which is the background for the photo.)

Anyway, as indicated above, the next job was to make the tongue plane usable so that I could match the groove plane to the set.

After a short time this afternoon I was satisfied I had the blade and wedge fitting nice and tight into the plane body so I decided to test it out. I clamped a piece of 7/8" Crapiata Scandanavia (the scientific name for timber recycled from a broken Ikea futon bed) into the shoulder vise and made a few shavings.

496095496096496097496098

Obviously I have a little bit of refining to do on the escapement but that's not a bad start.

Just to make sure that I set the right expectations here - this is NOT the type of plane you want to make gossamer-thin shavings on. If you are cutting a 1/4" tongue or groove at 1 thou per pass that would take 250 passes :C

There's a whole 15 days to go so I don't really see it as a 'sprint" to the finish that others have mentioned but there's still a lot of fiddling and fine adjustment to come.

[Chief Tiff]

Glad to see Double Trouble is back in the running; how’s the grooving half coming on?

[doug3030]

how’s the grooving half coming on?

At this stage I have removed most of the waste between the bed and the breast down to about 1/16th" short of where i estimate the required depth to be. This is so that I can sneak up on the right depth so that the planes match exactly. This is possibly the part of the build that will either make or break it.

[doug3030]

Ok, I have spent a few hours in the shed since the last update, not all of the time was devoted to "Double Trouble" but significant progress has been made with them. So, lets look at the two planes separately for a progress report.

The Tongue Plane:

As previously reported this plane is now to the stage that it can take a shaving.I realized today that from that point where the first shaving was taken that this plane has now met the minimum requirements for an entry in it's own right. :oo: :2tsup:

As I said in the previous post there is still a lot more to do to refine it from a "meets minimum parameters" plane to being a fully functional tool which is a pleasure to use.

I cut two short lengths of 7/8" stock, one to cut a shallow tongue profile into it to use while matching the groove plane to the tongue plane, and the other obviously for testing for a match with the groove plane profile.

Here is a pic of the tongue plane with a shallow profile cut in the test material and the resultant shavings:

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EDIT: there's a failed attachment here somewhere. I can't delete it. It is the same photo as the one above that you can see.

The Groove Plane

I have now set the depth of the blade into the body to match up with the tongue plane. Like the tongue plane, the wedge is now a nice tight fit into the body, pushing the blade securely along the full length of the bed.

After cutting a shallow groove profile I took a photo of the groove plane posed similar to the tongue plane photo above. I will have to find a suitable tablecloth for the background for the "judging" pics. A workbench as a background for woodworking tools just doesn't make the grade in this competition. :doh:

So with photographic evidence of a functioning plane (Shavings) I guess that the Groove Plane would qualify as an entry in it's own right too.

496306


Double Trouble

I mentioned above that both planes would qualify as individual entries in their own right so I will just make it clear that I have no intention of entering them as anything but a pair. They were designed as a matched pair, were built as a matched pair and that is how I intend to present them to the judges. But in the unlikely event that something catastrophic happens to one or the other I guess I have a fallback position. :D

Now, as indicated above, I now have two shallow profiles cut; one from each plane. I suppose everyone is hanging out to see if they match up?

496307
:hpydans::ohyaaa::yippy::yippee:

It seems like quite a while ago now that I spent a lot of time ensuring that the layout and cutting of the profiles on both plane bodies and the blades was spot-on. Now my patience is being rewarded.

If anything I may have been a little too accurate in matching the timber profile with that of the blades. With the wooden profiles exactly matching the blades (within a couple of thou) there is a bit too much friction when using the planes and it gets worse as you cut the profile deeper. That's one of the reasons I just cut shallow profiles for the testing at this stage, but now that I know that everything is aligned, I can thin out the wooden profiles a bit so that they are thinner than the blades. I want to take of just a smidgen so that friction is reduced but the wooden profiles still help keep the plane straight through the cut. I am pretty confident that it will just take a bit of well-considered sanding. :)

Hopefully I can have that sorted tomorrow. Then I can get onto some of the other fine-tuning like improving the escapement. Then all that should be left is to make them comfortable and pretty. The end is in sight.

[labr@]

Looking good Doug. As for the end being in sight, it needs to be cos, well ...tick...tick...tick.

Back to work :whip:

[Chief Tiff]

A good result so far; dunno about you but I’m getting excited about seeing the joint cut full depth once the fettlin’ be finished!

[Oldgreybeard]

Looking good but don't forget Doug, you have to get out of the shed sometime so Jools can work on her masterpeice!

Cheers
Bob

[doug3030]

Looking good but don't forget Doug, you have to get out of the shed sometime so Jools can work on her masterpeice!

Bob, the shed is big enough for the two of us. We have discussed our work schedules for today. She will be using the metalwork area to cut the slot into her blade and grind the bevel. Then she should be heat treating this afternoon. Since she is also a knife-maker she can handle all that.

I will be working at my workbench for most of the day so we should not have any territory wars. There may however be some discussions on what music is playing and a compromise reached.

[Bushmiller]

There may however be some discussions on what music is playing and a compromise reached.

Doug

Is that a euphemism for "acquiesced?"

:wink:

Regards
Paul

PS: Doesn't matter. I am sure the planes will turn out fine.

[doug3030]

Doug

Is that a euphemism for "acquiesced?"

:wink:

Regards
Paul

PS: Doesn't matter. I am sure the planes will turn out fine.

Actually the usual compromise is to play the Spotify playlist put together by my veterans knife-making group. The group consists of veterans from 20 to 70 ish year-olds so the music selections are pretty diverse but most people chose music of general appeal so as not to upset the others.

Neither of us are very militant in what we will and won't listen to anyway. If I am in the shed by myself I like to play 1970's stuff. Jools being 7 years younger than me, likes some of the more recent stuff but is fine with most of my music anyway.

[doug3030]

Time for a couple of pictures.

A couple of shots of the planes and a little test piece.

496762 496763

Note the sandpaper taped to the granite surface plate to help with the finishing.

Below you can see my frame and wedge jig for holding the plane bodies being used for it's alternate use of having a piece of 1/8" O1 Tool steel with a piece of sandpaper taped to it to facilitate cleaning up the insides of the profiles on the bases of the planes. One of the advantages of being a knife/blade maker is having a good selection of ground flat steel to use for things like that.

496764

I will probably spend a few more hours over the remainder of the week fine-tuning and removing sharp corners and edges before submitting the final pictures for judging.

Just some thoughts on my choice of materials. I chose Queen Ebony for the plane bodies for a few reasons. It's hardness is an advantage for longevity and hard-wearing. The sole will become polished as it is used, reducing friction. It's weight gives the planes a good feeling in the hand and helps maintain momentum in the cut. I chose Olive Wood for he wedges because I wanted something that was hard enough to withstand being jammed between a piece of Queen Ebony and O1 tool steel and still have enough "give" in it to compress a little to grip properly. Obviously all the "give" has to be in the wedges as the other items won't "give" at all.

Yes, there have been some challenges and added complexity in the build from the timber choices which made me question my sanity at times but then my sanity is questionable at the best of times. I love working with hard timbers like Queen Ebony and many of the Aussie Desert Timbers. I once made a set of wooden hinges out of Gidgee and swore I would never do that again. Despite the challenges it provided I would definitely make another plane out of Queen Ebony because it produces an excellent feeling plane.

[Mountain Ash]

Hi Doug. Your planes are looking good enough to be the backing band for Stevie Ray Vaughan! Seriously lovely work. I hope you havent copyrighted the design, I want to make myself a pair now. Although I also want to make a pair of snipes bill planes, and.... Did you end up tapering the blades? (I think I remember some talk about doing it)

[doug3030]

Hi Doug. Your planes are looking good enough to be the backing band for Stevie Ray Vaughan! Seriously lovely work. I hope you havent copyrighted the design, I want to make myself a pair now. Although I also want to make a pair of snipes bill planes, and.... Did you end up tapering the blades? (I think I remember some talk about doing it)

Hopefully they will have a longer lifespan than Stevie Ray did :oo:

No copyright on the design, MA. Not much different from ones that are over 100 years old. There are quite a few design variants that I considered before settling on that design. Some variations are far more complex than the really need to be with no real advantage to be gained from the extra work.

Just by chance I have been wanting to make a pair of snipes bills too. Now they would look spectacular in Queen Ebony with brass inlays. :cool: :2tsup:

No, I didn't taper the blades. I see no advantage in it when using precision ground flat stock. I think I posted in the previous discussion on the subject that I believe it used to be done by the blacksmiths back in the day to save a bit of metal and they convinced the woodworkers that they did it because it made the blades fit tighter to make a selling point out of it.

[doug3030]

Some people think that all planes are judged by their ability to take gossamer-thin shavings. They are probably the same people who believe in fairies, leprechauns and unicorns. If you are one of those people this picture is for you. 1 thou shavings off a joinery plane. :rolleyes:
I just wanted to show that Double Trouble are versatile.

496838

For those who have a deeper appreciation of joinery planes, and understand the difference between them and smoothing planes, this is your picture below.
A couple of taps on the end of he blade and now we are taking 8 thou shavings and will get the job done in a more workman-like manner. :2tsup:

496839

Although both planes are taking nice shavings, I still have some work to do on the escapements.
I am doing some experiments on shaping the end of the wedge to direct the shavings where they need to go. This will remain secret at the moment, kind of like the winged keel in the 1983 America's Cup challenge.You will hear all about it's successes but you might not get to see it.
Here is a picture of two shavings coming out of the escapement on the tongue plane, so it is working somewhat. still room for refinement. I may yet need to resort to cutting into the breast of the plane, but I am hoping to avoid that.

496840

The groove plane is much simpler to get the escapement working on because there is only one shaving and it is produced right next to the edge of the body, as you can see in this picture.

496841

I may be able to get this working a little better but at this stage I need to get the tongue plane priority.

Anyway, I have had the heaters on in the shed for long enough now for it to be warm enough to go out and do some more. I will be back later.

[labr@]

This will remain secret at the moment, kind of like the winged keel in the 1983 America's Cup challenge.


Uh oh! Looks like Doug's going for the psychological advantage :oo:. :U

Must say I am impressed with the 1 thou shavings - it may not be necessary but shows the quality of the plane.