Cheap water stone is that false advertising

[justonething]

If you do a search on Amazon AU for Japanese water stones (https://www.amazon.com.au/Sharpening-Finew-Non-slip-Flatting-Polishing/dp/B0872N6LYJ/ref=sr_1_52?dchild=1&keywords=water+stones&qid=1602153775&sr=8-52), you see a myriad of choices, some seemingly excellent value for money. But looking at some of their reviews - the most common complaints are that the true grit size is not what they advertise to be.
At least there are reviews on Amazon, but there is no equivalent product review on ebay.
Has anybody bought any of these water stones? and what are their experiences?
I would probably stick to the brands that I know and probably only those that were made in Japan. But I'd intersted in knowing others thinking.

[Ben Dono]

You're not alone in that issue mate. I'm pretty sure we all can relate, especially regarding stones. What makes it even more complex is that everyone's skill level is going to differ, as well as their tools, as well as what they call 'sharp'. It is mostly based on a very subjective opinions. Someone who sharpens their tools on the workshops concrete floor will find the Dollar Store oil stone to be a real gem.

I'm fairly certain that 'King' is classed as the entry level stones that give very acceptable results, even for seasoned pros. If you have more coin, there are other brands.
Cheaper stones are fine for some tools and tasks. Some of them are going to be pearlers but you're really not going to know unless you take the risk.
My personal experience with cheaper stones is that you generally 'get what you paid for'. I would probably not call it false advertising... maybe more like 'false economy'.... and I'm a thrifty old bugger!
I hope some of that rambling helps mate.
All the best

[Robson Valley]

Synthetic stone quality depends on a mix of grit size, grit hardness, adhesive hardness and proportions of grit and binder.
How carefully was the screening done for nominal particle size? I can tell you anything and be as sloppy as I like in preparation.
There's a long code set used by industry, described by Leonard Lee in his book.

Some cheap stones aren't even labelled!
I bought several carborundum stones for rough shaping and repairing edges.
Comparing "feel" to grades of sandpapers with my eyes shut, I might have 80, 120 and 220 stones. Maybe.

For the majority of my wood carving tools, I need abrasives on mandrels of different radii. Even a tennis ball.
Silicon carbide fine automotive finishing wet&dry sandpapers (3M) 600-1500 grits are satisfactory.

[Fergiz01]

The Shapton Pros (kuromaku) are cheap enough on Amazon to overcome the allure of the cheap stones.

Sent from my Nokia 4.2 using Tapatalk

[tonzeyd]

king stones are not really cheap particularly considering the quality difference between a king stone and say a shapeton stone.

From memory when I got my shapeton stone it was only $20 more than a comparable king stone

[Chris Parks]

Explore the available ideas that are available, some that cost less than $20 and give very good results or some that require a bit if money and give far faster results which I think is more important. There has been a lot of comment on the Unicorn method on the Wood Central forum as well as here that gives very experieced woodworkers spectacular results in a very short time. There were some doubters that took some convincing at first but they are now true believers it seems. My take on any method is if it is going to take a long time I will avoid sharpening while working but if it is quick and easy then keeping the edge sharp is not a chore.

Waterstones are messy and some people reject them on that alone and there are two different types, synthetic and natural stones. There is at least one good book written on the subject but none are up to date on the latest ideas AFAIK and it is possible to spend thousands on pursuing perfection when hundreds or less will do.

[Mountain Ash]

I agree that sharpening stuff can soon add up. I am still refining my unicorn method and a little reluctanct to reduce initial bevel angles by so much. Sure improves sharpening my solitary incannel gouge.

[Old Croc]

If you do a search on Amazon AU for Japanese water stones (https://www.amazon.com.au/Sharpening-Finew-Non-slip-Flatting-Polishing/dp/B0872N6LYJ/ref=sr_1_52?dchild=1&keywords=water+stones&qid=1602153775&sr=8-52), you see a myriad of choices,
I would probably stick to the brands that I know and probably only those that were made in Japan. But I'd intersted in knowing others thinking.
Trouble is there are so many forgeries getting sold on various platforms. I remember a few years ago there were nasty copies of Mitutoyo measuring tools floating around.
Rgds,
Crocy.

[safari]

I have a 400/1000 diamond stone, mostly using only the 1000. I then follow up with 3000 and 6000 King (I think) water stones. Pretty happy with it but after watching Rob Cosman's sharpening video I might think about getting either a 12000 or 16000 Shapton to replace the two Kings.

[Robson Valley]

Scanning electron microscope images indicate that going above 1500 grit is of little incremental benefit.
The iron is so very plastic, the edge is always shredded.
I stop with 1500 then hone my wood carving edges with CrOx/AlOx.

[justonething]

Scanning electron microscope images indicate that going above 1500 grit is of little incremental benefit.
The iron is so very plastic; the edge is always shredded.
I stop with 1500 then hone my wood carving edges with CrOx/AlOx.

I have been saying that there is no practical benefit going above 4000~6000 grit. But I feel that there is a difference between 1500 grit and 4000 grit. Of course, our definition of 1500 grit may be different. Do you have any images showing how after the first use, it makes no difference in how much finer you sharpen beyond your threshold grit size?

[Robson Valley]

I was taught a fairly dogmatic ritual for free-hand sharpening of gouges and such for wood carving.
The end was a 4K waterstone then hone on a strop with CrOx/AlOx.

This has always been entirely adequate to carve the very soft woods of western red cedar and yellow cedar.

Question: just how much of that was really necessary?
Answer for me: Turn to Leonard Lee's Sharpening book and look at all the SEM images.
I concluded that the soft plastic nature of thin steel (aka the edge) was not served by any work above 1500 grit.
Lee Valley and 3M specify nominal particle size in micrometers for their 1500 grit. I take their words for that.

Experience reveals that those edges last me about 30 minutes of steady hand work.
I can "feel" the edge going away. That can be restored by simple honing.
The CrOx is 0.5 micrometer and the AlOx is 0.25 micrometer, nominal particle sizes.

My only proof is entirely subjective = me and a piece of western red cedar.
I can't tell the difference between 1500 and hone when compared with 4,000 and hone.
3M wet&dry silicon carbide sandpapers do as I need.

[NeilS]

As this sharpening forum is on a woodworking site, it is assumed that we are discussing waterstones from the perspective of sharpening woodworking tools. However, it is worth mentioning that waterstones are also used to sharpen edges for other uses that have quite different requirements.

For example, sharpening knives for culinary use or large convex and curved beveled tools, such as axes and adze. Those have quite different requirements to most woodworking edge tools.

Keeping soft waterstones flat is a factor when woodworkers sharpen their straight edge tools, but that is not anywhere near as significant for some other uses of waterstones, like knife and blade sharpening. For example, there isn't a flat stone anywhere to be seen in this 1915 photo of a Japanese sword sharpener.


485522

In Japan, where most waterstones come from, there are far more 'toishi' being used in kitchens and paddocks than by carpenters, etc. So, don't assume that any waterstone you can buy will meet your requirement just because it is called a waterstone. A cheaper soft muddy waterstone that needs to be pre-soaked may be the last thing a flatware woodworker wants, yet could be a very acceptable option for another user.

When waterstones first came into use in the west there were just a few stones available to us like King and Lobster. Whatever our intended use, that is what we got and used. We now have a very wide range to choose from to the point where it can be confusing. You just have to do your homework on what you need them for and look past the hype around some offerings. Not that that is an easy task.

Stuart Tierney, an Australian living in Japan and who had access to and sold many different waterstones made there, did some comparative tests and evaluations of different waterstones on different steels and reported on those results in some blogs that are fortunately still available, although sadly his shop, Tools from Japan, is now closed.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part I (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=672)


Waterstone testing, the results. Part II (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=678)


Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=713)


Waterstone testing, the results. Part III (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=726)


And, for those for whom flatness is important....

Waterstone testing part IV; how flat is ‘flat’? (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=756)


I suggest reading all of them before rushing to a conclusion and dismissing humble brands such as King or Naniwa from your considerations.

At last count I have 13 man made and 11 natural waterstones... no I'm not a collector... more inquisitive than acquisitor... there is a lot to learn and there is always more to learn when it comes to any of the methods of sharpening! I'm very mindful that I might still have a long way to go with the 'Dunning–Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#:~:text=In%20the%20field%20of%20psychology,recognize%20their%20lack%20of%20ability.)' before I really know what I'm talking about on any topic...:U

[cotedupy1]

These are fascinating reading!

& I'd certainly agree that one shouldn't dismiss the likes of King or Naniwa. I have a similar no. of stones (also probably about half and half), and the one I use most, both on its own and in almost any progression for both sharpening and polishing, is a permasoaked King 1.2k - a truly excellent stone.

That is for kitchen knives... I'd be interested to learn more about how stones differ when using for tools.

[LanceC]

Scanning electron microscope images indicate that going above 1500 grit is of little incremental benefit.
The iron is so very plastic, the edge is always shredded.
I stop with 1500 then hone my wood carving edges with CrOx/AlOx.

I jump from 1500 to 8,000 and the difference is very noticeable. But using your nomenclature, I would suggest that my sharpening at 8,000 is doing the same as your honing. I have always thought honing a non abrasive procedure. It is simply realigning the edge which has been bent out of shape. Once you introduce an abrasive and are removing metal, you're back to sharpening (and potentially honing at the same time).

[NeilS]

I have always thought honing a non abrasive procedure. It is simply realigning the edge which has been bent out of shape. Once you introduce an abrasive and are removing metal, you're back to sharpening (and potentially honing at the same time).

Where to start (and finish) on this one, Lance.

I'm not sure I understand the term 'honing' when applied to blade sharpening. The term seems to be loosely used by different experts in different ways and it has no agreed and defined meaning. The point at which sharpening ends and honing begins is somewhat arbitrary and more in the mind and practice of the user than any defined transition point. Therefore, I'm not sure it is all that useful.

Steeling an edge to 'realign it' is, as I understand it, something else yet again. My limited experience of that goes back 60yrs when I did odd jobs as a kid in a butchers shop in my home village. The butchers were endlessly 'steeling' their knives with a steel; a long thin round piece of hardened steel with fine grooves running the length of the rod. The explanation given was that they were straightening (realigning) the edge.

Several observations on that.

If the butchers were having to realign their edge as often as that then their knives were made from very soft steel and the edges with all that bending back and forth would have soon broken off leaving a very blunt edge. However, their knives were always very sharp and I don't remember them being sharpened on a stone very often. I do know from my experiments with the formation and consolidation of scraper edges (burr raising) that 'steeling' (using a burnishing rod) improves the edge for that purpose, so I'm not questioning the value of edge consolidation with a steel, but believe that the old steeling rods and their modern equivalents (in ceramic and diamond) are both abrading and consolidating the edge when used. The steeling action probably also helped with burr removal to give the edge a longer life. Steels are also called hones by some vendors, but from what I can work out those also have a sharpening action. Someone might like to correct me on that with some nice before and after images at about 200x magnification... :U

The term hone or honing (eg honing compound) is also used in relation to stropping where fine abrasives are used to achieve a finer edge. If we just call that stropping it is really just the endpoint of an abrasive sharpening process. The term hone may have some understood meaning in the straight razor community with their separate stropping process, but that doesn't necessarily apply to other types of blade sharpening.

The Japanese call their finest finishing waterstones, Shiageto (last or finishing stone) which is often gets translated into English as polishing stone, but this can be applied to any stone at or above #1500. But, what is an acceptable finish/edge for one person may be a long way from acceptable for another so, IMO, 'polishing' stone is another term that is not that useful in itself.

As I see it, we sharpen with our preferred abrasive/s until we get the finish/edge that we find acceptable. I'm not convinced that arbitrarily calling any point along that progression as honing helps us understanding the sharpening process. However, vendors and gurus will continue to use such terms to appear authoritative, while confusing us.

[LanceC]

I'm not convinced that arbitrarily calling any point along that progression as honing helps us understanding the sharpening process. However, vendors and gurus will continue to use such terms to appear authoritative, while confusing us.

Yes. There are so many terms which we use interchangeably across cultures (and domains) that it quickly becomes a pea soup, making it harder for beginners to make heads or tails of what is being described. Sorry if I added to the confusion.

[cotedupy1]

'Honing' certainly seems to be a term that seems to get used quite widely and often arbitrarily. But the way I understand is it the following... Honing is done on something that is less hard than what you're honing.

A metal honing rod would be less hard than a kitchen knife - it pushes the steel on your edge into shape, rather than removing steel to create a new edge. The particles in a ceramic or diamond honing rod on the other hand are harder than your knife - they will remove metal, even if just a small amount, and create a new edge. So stropping on unloaded leather, cardboard etc. is honing the edge. But any synthetic whetstone you have, no matter how high the grit, will be sharpening to some extent.

That's my interpretation anyway!

(As an interesting aside, something I just thought of... Most knives, chisels, and stuff are going to be in the region of 55-65 HRC, which may roughly correlate to 5-6 on the Mohs scale. And is convenient to say the least, because quartz - the second (?) most abundant element in the earth's crust - is 7. Most traditional natural sharpening stones; slate, sandstone, arkansas &c. get their abrasion from forms of quartz. In a parallel universe where quartz was softer than iron/steel, we basically wouldn't really have been able to make something out of metal and then make it sharper, at least not to the extent that we could. The last few thousand years of human development would look very different indeed.)

[cotedupy1]

To demonstrate... people often think of fine Arkansas as honing stones because they're so hard. But actually novaculite (metamorphosed quartz) does cut, if only a little bit. Here's swarf from a yanagiba on a translucent Ark, it's very definitely sharpening rather than honing:

494656

[NeilS]

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

Far from it, Lance. You were just saying what we have all been hearing... for ever. My comments weren't directed at you. You just gave me a hook to hang my hat on...:wink:

[NeilS]

A metal honing rod would be less hard than a kitchen knife...



Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/ (https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/)

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

[cotedupy1]

I jump from 1500 to 8,000 and the difference is very noticeable. But using your nomenclature, I would suggest that my sharpening at 8,000 is doing the same as your honing. I have always thought honing a non abrasive procedure. It is simply realigning the edge which has been bent out of shape. Once you introduce an abrasive and are removing metal, you're back to sharpening (and potentially honing at the same time).

Oops, sorry! I didn't read this properly last night before typing out basically exactly the same thing, but less succinctly. But yes - that's basically how I would use the term too.

I think the reason the term gets used in a broader way is probably down to perception, as well as the kind of edge you want. If you sharpened a chef's knife going from a 6k stone to a 15k Welsh slate or somesuch, the edge is going to feel incredibly smooth and refined. You'd lose the grippiness, and it'd probably be less useful in the kitchen, likely even feeling blunter when cutting a lot of things. But if you did the same thing with a chisel or razor, it'd feel sharper in use - you don't really want the edge of a razor to be like a microscopic saw. In this way I suppose, the slate kind've acts both in honing and sharpening, perhaps doing more of the former and less of the latter. Lots of factors affect it to do with distribution, shape, and release of abrasive particles in a stone, and you can play around with the effect by raising mud and using different pressures.

I haven't sharpened many chisels before tbh, but I did one for a friend the other day and saw this in action. After using a synthetic 3k stone it had an edge that would be great for a knife, but it wan't that great on a chisel. I then finished on a slate, probably pretty much exactly the same 'grit' level (3k), but the quartz in slate is quite rounded, and they don't slurry easily. The chisel felt much sharper afterwards - what I did was probably more honing than sharpening...

So having written all that, it actually strikes me that it's all really a kind've continuum. And people should probably just continue using the words however they want ;)

[cotedupy1]

Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/ (https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/)

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

Ah I must've got mixed up about the honing steel thing, I always thought they were slightly softer, though like you I don't really have much experience (and clearly less knowledge!). It makes sense then why people don't recommend using them for harder Japanese steels, and to use a ceramic rod for them if you wanted to do that kind of thing. Though the only people I know who do work in kitchens, and just do it out of convenience during service.

I thought it was an interesting thought re- quartz too! :) The sheer abundance of it has meant that most societies anywhere in the world had access to stones that would make tools sharper. If we didn't have quartz then the Belgians, with their stash of coticules, would probably have conquered the world!

[NeilS]

I was going to add a comment on the difference between the sharpening traditions in the East and West in my earlier post, but thought I had dumped enough there without that distraction...:B

However, I think there is a helpful point to be made in relation to that difference.

See the heading, Usage trends in the following Wiki article on honing steels

Honing steel - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honing_steel)

The key points being, steeling may have had a role with softer western blades but never with harder eastern blades, and many modern western knives that now contain harder carbides also favour maintenance with abrasives. The proliferation of 'sharpening' steels made from ceramic and diamond are an indication of that trend. Where a knife is hitting something hard, like bone in butchery, there may still be a role for a softer knives and regular steeling, but those butchers sure spend a lot of time doing that... a bit phallic, eh!

But, for most of us the maintenance of our edges is best done with the finest abrasive we require for the edges we desire.

In which case I reckon the 'honing' term, despite its longtime traditional use in the West, has no real meaning, that is unless we are using it metaphorically, as in honing my sharpening skills...:rolleyes:

[Bushmiller]

Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/ (https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/)

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

Neil

It appears the merry-go-round has sparked into life again. :D

Seeing as how you have mentioned the esteemed German producer of butcher's steels it has always amused me (digression coming up) that the slightly unfortunate association of F.Dick that appears on their products has a particular resonance in our language, but that is an aside.

494678

Although the naming does get worse:

494679

But aside from the unfortunate naming, the steel is a beauty and very smooth, which I think is one of the marks of a quality steel

Our day to day kitchen knives comprise a "set" (a mismatched set in reality) of five. Three are Damascus style, which with these versions is more aesthetics than function, I believe, and the other two are laminated blue steel being a larger Santoku and a traditional Nakiri.

494680

I am reluctant to mention this as you have far more experience with this subject than me, particularly with JP knives. However, I use our butchers' steel on them all. I have inherited a family steeped in butchering and one of them I have had lengthy discussions with on the use of the steel. It is in this regard we are in agreement (not too many other regards :rolleyes: )that typically you see steels being used incorrectly. We tend to see them used very quickly, being some sort of testimony to the skill of the person performing. This inevitably leads to the knife being "mashed" onto the steel. It is probably of less account with the knives used in the butchers shop. However, both of us stroke our knives very gently and quite slowly against the steel. The action is one of caressing far more than striking. Particularly with the blue steel knives, they are placed against the steel before being drawn. It helps that our steel is one of the longer versions too at 350mm.

I applaud cotedupy's entry to the discussions, but I am not sure that honing does not remove metal, unless honing is the wrong terminology for the use of the steel. The reason I say this, is that after a period of time the steel has a reduced effect or benefit. Steeling the knife over time creates a secondary bevel which develops into what I call a "shoulder." There comes a moment when this "shoulder" has to be removed in order for the knife to become satisfactorily sharp again. We also much more easily see this with our chisels and plane blades as they are larger and more exaggerated. To develop that "shoulder" we had to remove metal.

If honing does not remove metal, should we have another step between that and initial sharpening called, say, "refining?"

Over to you blokes.

Regards
Paul

[cotedupy1]

Neil

It appears the merry-go-round has sparked into life again. :D

Seeing as how you have mentioned the esteemed German producer of butcher's steels it has always amused me (digression coming up) that the slightly unfortunate association of F.Dick that appears on their products has a particular resonance in our language, but that is an aside.

494678

Although the naming does get worse:

494679

But aside from the unfortunate naming, the steel is a beauty and very smooth, which I think is one of the marks of a quality steel

Our day to day kitchen knives comprise a "set" (a mismatched set in reality) of five. Three are Damascus style, which with these versions is more aesthetics than function, I believe, and the other two are laminated blue steel being a larger Santoku and a traditional Nakiri.

494680

I am reluctant to mention this as you have far more experience with this subject than me, particularly with JP knives. However, I use our butchers' steel on them all. I have inherited a family steeped in butchering and one of them I have had lengthy discussions with on the use of the steel. It is in this regard we are in agreement (not too many other regards :rolleyes: )that typically you see steels being used incorrectly. We tend to see them used very quickly, being some sort of testimony to the skill of the person performing. This inevitably leads to the knife being "mashed" onto the steel. It is probably of less account with the knives used in the butchers shop. However, both of us stroke our knives very gently and quite slowly against the steel. The action is one of caressing far more than striking. Particularly with the blue steel knives, they are placed against the steel before being drawn. It helps that our steel is one of the longer versions too at 350mm.

I applaud cotedupy's entry to the discussions, but I am not sure that honing does not remove metal, unless honing is the wrong terminology for the use of the steel. The reason I say this, is that after a period of time the steel has a reduced effect or benefit. Steeling the knife over time creates a secondary bevel which develops into what I call a "shoulder." There comes a moment when this "shoulder" has to be removed in order for the knife to become satisfactorily sharp again. We also much more easily see this with our chisels and plane blades as they are larger and more exaggerated. To develop that "shoulder" we had to remove metal.

If honing does not remove metal, should we have another step between that and initial sharpening called, say, "refining?"

Over to you blokes.

Regards
Paul

Yep... thinking about the term properly - I think I probably use it in a way that's different to a lot of people, probably because I'm far more used to Japanese knives than western knives. I'd tend to consider honing as pretty much like stropping. But you're right - you certainly see older Sabatiers and the like that have been 'over-steeled' on a honing rod, and had the belly completely taken out of them, so it certainly is removing material. There's obviously some kind of element of a spectrum, and choosing where you draw the line. Not of course that nomenclature really matters in the grand scheme of things, as NeilS said - it probably doesn't really have a meaning.

And it all goes to show that anything I say (on any topic tbh) should be taken with a large fistful of salt! ;)

[NeilS]

I have enjoyed your contributions, Bushmiller and Cotedupy.

Paul - if you are steeling Blue steel Jp blades, which are likely to be at least at mid-60s (HRC) hardness, then I do not think that you are bending the edge to 'straighten' it. At that HRC the metal is going to be far too brittle to be bend about like that. If your Dick steels are refreshing the edge on your Blue steel knives as you describe then that can only mean that they are achieving that with a fine abrasive action.

I have long believed that the 'straightening' explanation of how steels work is overstated, even for softer blade steels. Like you, I think they primarily work as a fine abrasive to 'refine' and refresh the edge. The fact that you find that repeated steeling changes the geometry of your knives confirms that.

Your steeling technique using light pressure also indicates that you are letting the fine abrasive do the work and that it is not pressure that is achieving a fresh edge. I know from using burnishing rods to push metal around to form a burr (on softer metal) that considerable pressure is required. So, a very different process.

On the steeling technique of some practitioners, I remember the butchers in my childhood slapping their steel and knives together and with such a flourish that they rang out loudly for all to hear... something of a performance, if nothing else!

Cotedupy - I'm forever challenging the language we use to describe what we think we understand and do. BTW, this is not directed in anyway at you, more at us collectively, me included. This goes back to when I was managing what is taught in TAFE courses. We would get the experts to write down what apprentices should learn and do. These experts were expert practitioners in their fields, but they often struggled to describe clearly what they knew and did, and then get agreement on that from the others in their domain of expertise.

Apologies if it felt like I was giving you the red pen treatment!!!

If you have not done so already, I would be interested in hearing further about your experiences with sharpening on Willunga slate. I had a go at sharpening using Kanmantoo (east of Adelaide) slate but with disappointing results; it was too slow and not that fine.

I understand that that one of the mines (Wheal) near Mt Osmond produced sharpening stones in the early days of the colony here in South Australia, but I haven't been able to find which mine or how good that stone was for sharpening.

The following thesis on the geology of Mt Osmond might be a pointer. Perhaps it was one of the siltstone deposits.

Adelaide Research & Scholarship: Geology of the Mt. Osmond area, South Australia (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/119915)

[Chris Parks]

Like Neil I always wondered about how using a steel worked. I have found that before a steel is used the turned over edge can be felt with a finger nail and after steeling the edge appears to have been straightened and the knife actually cuts but it maybe the rolled edge is removed by the steel rather than straightened. I was a bit of a sceptic on how much a steel will enhance the cutting performance but it does and quite markedly so.

[Bushmiller]

Chris

I should point out that not all steels are created the same even within the revered brands. I will take some pix over the next couple of days to demonstrate this. The coarser steels do remove more metal and "tend" to be the cheaper versions. A colleague who spent a former life in the butchering trade said that as an apprentice he could only afford a cheap steel so he took to his and sanded down the metal to make it smoother.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

I have found that before a steel is used the turned over edge can be felt with a finger nail and after steeling the edge appears to have been straightened and the knife actually cuts but it maybe the rolled edge is removed by the steel rather than straightened.



OK, Chris, time to bring in a bigger gun than we currently have participating here in our forum to throw more light on whether steels 'straighten' rolled edge?

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1 – scienceofsharp (https://scienceofsharp.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/)

That certainly throws more light on the topic, that is if that is the right term for SE microscopy!

My summary of the findings reported in the article:



"Steeling improves keenness through metal removal rather than 're-alignment of the edge'."
"There is some evidence of softened metal being redistributed; however, a micro-bevel is unquestionably formed through metal removal."
One "type of metal removal is generally termed abrasive wear and occurs when a hard, sharp abrasive cuts into a softer metal surface."
Another "type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs at pressure points [where] the contact area is very small."


I'm a fan of micro or nano-bevels; so steel, stone or strop away with your preferred method to get and maintain the edge quality you require for the cutting task at hand...:U


I came across a link to the above article when I was researching scrapers and burrs that woodturners use (see the following link for an article on that if you are interested in burr formation).

What Does Steeling Do? Part 2 : The Card Scraper – scienceofsharp (https://scienceofsharp.com/2019/06/08/what-does-steeling-do-part-2-the-card-scraper/)

[cotedupy1]

I have enjoyed your contributions, Bushmiller and Cotedupy.

Paul - if you are steeling Blue steel Jp blades, which are likely to be at least at mid-60s (HRC) hardness, then I do not think that you are bending the edge to 'straighten' it. At that HRC the metal is going to be far too brittle to be bend about like that. If your Dick steels are refreshing the edge on your Blue steel knives as you describe then that can only mean that they are achieving that with a fine abrasive action.

I have long believed that the 'straightening' explanation of how steels work is overstated, even for softer blade steels. Like you, I think they primarily work as a fine abrasive to 'refine' and refresh the edge. The fact that you find that repeated steeling changes the geometry of your knives confirms that.

Your steeling technique using light pressure also indicates that you are letting the fine abrasive do the work and that it is not pressure that is achieving a fresh edge. I know from using burnishing rods to push metal around to form a burr (on softer metal) that considerable pressure is required. So, a very different process.

On the steeling technique of some practitioners, I remember the butchers in my childhood slapping their steel and knives together and with such a flourish that they rang out loudly for all to hear... something of a performance, if nothing else!

Cotedupy - I'm forever challenging the language we use to describe what we think we understand and do. BTW, this is not directed in anyway at you, more at us collectively, me included. This goes back to when I was managing what is taught in TAFE courses. We would get the experts to write down what apprentices should learn and do. These experts were expert practitioners in their fields, but they often struggled to describe clearly what they knew and did, and then get agreement on that from the others in their domain of expertise.

Apologies if it felt like I was giving you the red pen treatment!!!

If you have not done so already, I would be interested in hearing further about your experiences with sharpening on Willunga slate. I had a go at sharpening using Kanmantoo (east of Adelaide) slate but with disappointing results; it was too slow and not that fine.

I understand that that one of the mines (Wheal) near Mt Osmond produced sharpening stones in the early days of the colony here in South Australia, but I haven't been able to find which mine or how good that stone was for sharpening.

The following thesis on the geology of Mt Osmond might be a pointer. Perhaps it was one of the siltstone deposits.

Adelaide Research & Scholarship: Geology of the Mt. Osmond area, South Australia (https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/119915)

Haha, no not all! I find it all quite interesting, and had never really thought about how my idea of it might differ from other people's. I really use the word basically like 'stropping', but I don't use a steel/rod, so actually they're somewhat things.

Willunga slate *I* find interesting. Though it may not be a million miles away from your experiences tbh - it is slow, and in the 2-5k range. The best pieces I've found show what I believe are the lines from the original bedding planes not necessarily running parallel to the layers of the slate, if that makes sense(?)

In the picture below the middle stone is completely flat and smooth; I flattened it along the layer of the stone, but you can clearly see that the slate has formed across previous layers, even though you can't feel them:

494759


That's very interesting about Wheal/Mt Osmond mine! I spent a little while recently trying to research about that kind of thing, and it's remarkable how little information or history I could find about (European) Australians' use of natural Australian whetstones. There was the quarry at Mudgee, but that seemed to be about it. Also interesting because I live about tens mins away from there, in Aldgate.

So I'm off now to spend an hour or two trawling through the internet to see if I can find out more... :wink:

[NeilS]

That's very interesting about Wheal/Mt Osmond mine! I spent a little while recently trying to research about that kind of thing, and it's remarkable how little information or history I could find about (European) Australians' use of natural Australian whetstones. There was the quarry at Mudgee, but that seemed to be about it. Also interesting because I live about tens mins away from there, in Aldgate.

So I'm off now to spend an hour or two trawling through the internet to see if I can find out more... :wink:

That slate sure is pretty, if nothing else.

Here is a map of the old mines at/near Mt Osmond. But, I'm not sure which one of those was referred to as the source or for that matter the quality of the stone on offer.

https://www.weekendnotes.com/im/006/04/wheal-watkins-wheal-watkins-mine-wheal-watkins-sil81.jpg

[yvan]

Very interesting discussion!

After maintenance sharpening my kitchen knives on 2 waterstones - 2000 then 5000G - I strop them on leather coated with green compound.

I then "revive" their edge after some use with a steel. In the process, I have noticed that the nice shiny edge left by stropping becomes quite scratched by the use of the steel. I would have thought that such scratches are the result of the abrasive action of the steel.

I would have also thought that achieving a keen edge by any sort of friction, including "honing" would be - by definition -the result of abrasion.

I have to confess that I do not appreciate the finer distinction and ultimate effect between honing as an abrasive action as opposed to honing as a "re-arrangement"?

Cheers,
Yvan

[NeilS]

I have to confess that I do not appreciate the finer distinction and ultimate effect between honing as an abrasive action as opposed to honing as a "re-arrangement"?




I expect few of us do, Yvan.

If my experience with burrs on scrapers is anything to go by (it may not be) a rearranged edge is going to be far less durable than a freshly exposed edge of base blade material created through abrasion.

Re-arranging the metal to reform a micro-edge may be quicker to achieve and effective for awhile, but not last as long as a freshly re-ground micro-edge that usually takes longer to achieve. Deciding where to put your effort then becomes an individual choice.

[Robson Valley]

The "honing compound" that I use is clearly an abrasive. The black streaks of steel residue on the strop show that.
Of course, the surface appears polished. This is so finely scratched that the unaided human eye does not have the resolution to see it.
All the same, it seems to be an essential final step for the edges of wood carving tools to be used in very soft woods.

[NeilS]

The "honing compound" that I use is clearly an abrasive. The black streaks of steel residue on the strop show that.
Of course, the surface appears polished. This is so finely scratched that the unaided human eye does not have the resolution to see it.
All the same, it seems to be an essential final step for the edges of wood carving tools to be used in very soft woods.

RV, I'm neither a shaver nor a carver of soft woods, so have no doubt that you have found the right solution for your particular needs.

Perhaps the following two blog articles that go into stropping, with some SEM images to illustrate what is happening at the micro level, may be of interest to you. My interest was/is in understanding how burrs form during the sharpening process. Your focus (no pun intended) may be quite different.


What is a burr? – part 2 – scienceofsharp (https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/)

The Pasted Strop – part 3 – scienceofsharp (https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/31/the-pasted-strop-part-3/)

[Robson Valley]

I agree. There might be something odd about my process.
However, it does an excellent job on blades from spoke shaves and Stanley planes.
I use a lot of black felt marker even now to follow the steps in the process.
I sharpen from my knees, never from my elbows. That seems to sustain the geometry of the bevel.
The burr shows that you have run the sharpening out over the edge so that step is complete.

I stop with 1,500 grit (3 micron) and do a final honing on a hard strop with CrOx/AlOx.
There are two pages of SEM photographs in Leonard Lee's book: The Complete Guide To Sharpening.
The photographic evidence showed me that there was really little need to go beyond 1,500 (3 micron)
as thin steels are soft and plastic.

[NeilS]

There might be something odd about my process.



Nothing odd about it as far as I can understand. The old boot maker that I used to watch in his workshop back in the 1950s used almost the same process.

If it works for you, it works!

Sharpening from the knees up sounds a bit like what I tell anyone I am teaching to woodturn; turn from the hips, not the elbows; I abbreviate that to start the cut with the "lathe tango".



There are two pages of SEM photographs in Leonard Lee's book: The Complete Guide To Sharpening. The photographic evidence showed me that there was really little need to go beyond 1,500 (3 micron) as thin steels are soft and plastic.

Does Lee say what steel those SEM images are of?

As we know, modern blade steels vary in their alloy composition and that changes their plasticity/elasticity (ductility <---> brittleness).


494853

The steel and blade making process also determines the carbide composition (austenite and martensite) and their distribution, which also changes its ductility, hardness, brittleness and toughness.

I find that some steels, for some uses, benefit from sharpening down to about 1 micron, while for others there isn't a return on the time and effort required to do that.

I've been experimenting with power stropping some of my turning tools with the DW's unicorn method, but I'm not convinced as yet that I'm getting an overall benefit from doing that. However, I can see the the benefits of getting a high 'polish' on gouge flutes and the upper bevel of scrapers using that method, if for no other reason that it is quicker.

Time to go and chop some wood. I find the edge at about #1,000 is sufficient there.

[Robson Valley]

No Neil, Leonard Lee does not specify the steel except for a couple of sorry SEM of a Wilkinson Sword razor blade.
He just says it's a chisel. The geometry of the big SEM machines is such that you can't stuff the entire specimen into the chamber (chisel tip.)
No notes on bevel angles and certainly no evidence of service.
Get the book on some sort of an Interlibrary Loan and have a read. LL has tried to be all things to all people about sharpening.
I was disappointed just a little so I expect there is stuff missing in other chapters as well.

As I expected, all steels look the same. They feather out, thrashed with abrasive scratches.
Big or little, they all look the same because steel is steel. Not broken along a line of molecules as is knapped flint.
As thin as bevelled edges, the metal looks really soft and plastic.

Prices? I pay $40- $60 each for Pfeil gouges from open stock. Pacific Northwest crooked knife blades are about the same
but the adze blades run $100 or more USD. I figured out how to use junk hoof knife blades for $5 each.

OK. I carve soft western red cedar and some yellow cedar. I like to carve (Betula papyrifera) Birch as a featureless hardwood.
They are the traditional and local carving woods in my part of the world.

What can I do for a freehand sharpening process which is entirely adequate for a 940g lead-core mallet strike?
1. Look at the edge in LED light to see damage.
2. Bad? start with 600, good? start with 800.
3. Then 1000 then 1200, then 1500 (I use 3M wet&dry papers, the particle sizes are specified. No grit BS numbers.)
4. Honing on a hard flat strop with CrOx/AlOx is important as a final step. I can tell just by the "push" effort
to cut the wood when the sharpening process is finished and good for 30-60 minutes of steady work.
To this end, I have a dedicated "try" stick for testing edges.

[woodPixel]

I've not stropped previously*.

When buying a strop (RV above: hard flat strop) where/what does one buy this?

Is there a product I can buy that is GOOD... can anyone make a solid recommendation?


Should I even bother with a strop and simply just jump to the unicorn method? (I did read the long post/thread about it and I'm convinced of its application).


* a slight lie. I did do so with the inside-side of cereal box cardboard and a green bar of Veritas stick. But I'd regard it more an experiment than a process :)

[Lappa]

Honing can be carried out using an abrasive compound/item. We hone engine cylinders, after re ringing or after reboring using aluminium oxide stones.

[Chris Parks]

Wood Central has a lot of info on the Unicorn method and I think Derek Cohen has become a bit of a convert as well and may have some information on his website. As for honing, I have always done it on a piece of MDF, cheap, disposable and it works for me. There are so many paths to sharp but the Unicorn method seems the most economical especially as cheaper blades respond so well and then perform as well as blades that cost a lot more which was its intended use in the first place. DW has put up some YT video worth watching, I think the speed is what appeals to a lot of people.

[cotedupy1]

I've not stropped previously*.

When buying a strop (RV above: hard flat strop) where/what does one buy this?

Is there a product I can buy that is GOOD... can anyone make a solid recommendation?


Should I even bother with a strop and simply just jump to the unicorn method? (I did read the long post/thread about it and I'm convinced of its application).


* a slight lie. I did do so with the inside-side of cereal box cardboard and a green bar of Veritas stick. But I'd regard it more an experiment than a process :)

With the caveat that my experience is mostly of sharpening Japanese kitchen knives, not razors or tools... the inside of a cereal box is an *excellent* thing to strop on. Most of the best knife sharpeners I know use unloaded cardboard or paper.

[Robson Valley]

Hard, flat strops. Anything flat that I can scribble with a bar of CrOx/AlOx Strips of cereal box cardboard, any hard flat packaging.
Glueing it down is a myth. Gravity is your friend. Dabs of masking tape at each end are perfect.

Because I carve so much with the crooked knives and adzes of the Pacific Northwest First Nations, I need mandrels.
Pieces of pipe, lawn chair legs, dowels, even a tennis ball. A big Stubai carving adze is a 7/75, perfect fit for a tennis ball.

On the cylindrical forms, I like 4" x 6" office filing cards.
Stuck at each end with a dab of electrician's tape or whatever else I can find at that moment.
Then scribble green. No sweat if it doesn't turn out too even, you knife will never notice.