basic setup, what do i need? [Archive]

havabeer69

17th November 2020, 11:34 AM

hi everyone.

i Dont really use many hand tools as just a hobby woodworker, but i've just splurged a little and bought a set of the Narex cryo chisels. i'm trying to work out what i'll need to go along with them to keep them sharp. I dont really want to buy a tormex system if i can avoid it

so from my basic understanding i will definitely need:
a honing guide

from there i can either go:
diamond plates
or
water stones

diamond plates:
seem to just need the plate
grits dont seem to go as high
depending on size cheaper option

water stones:
need the stones
higher grits then diamond plates
need a diamond flattening plate to keep them in good condition
more expensive initial setup

1. other then what i've listed above is there a reason to choose one over another?
2. can i do most of the sharpening with the above gear or do i actually need something like a tormex.
3. are there recommended grits i should be looking at

https://www.timbecon.com.au/narex-set-of-5-cryogenic-steel-cabinet-chisels

Hoey

17th November 2020, 02:35 PM

Read this thread then make up your mind.

The Unicorn method (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/unicorn-method-236206)

Hoey

elanjacobs

17th November 2020, 06:09 PM

My system was 2x DMT DuoSharp (XCoarse/Coarse and Fine/XFine) and a 12,000 Shapton to finish. Quick, easy, low maintenance and soooo shiny :p Oh yeah and sharp enough to shave with as well.

riverbuilder

17th November 2020, 06:14 PM

For a hundred years, all my old man and I have used is carborundum stones, they’re cheap, and they work. My advice is start with these, use them for a couple of years, then venture into the realm of diamonds, you’ll have a much better feel for using them.

LanceC

17th November 2020, 07:17 PM

Do you have a grinder with which to put a hollow grind on your chisels?

If so, you can get by with a 1000 grit diamond plate.

I started with a 400 and 1000 DMT diamond plate. I found that with a hollow grind I could go straight to the 1000 grit plate without an issue as you remove so little metal. My course plate hardly gets used, and given what I know now, wouldn't have bought it with hindsight.

I used to strop on a piece of hardwood with whatever buffing compound I had, but after a couple of years splashed out on an 8000 ceramic waterstone. Both give great results.

Oh, and you don't need a honing guide. If you want one, no problem, but freehand sharpening really isn't that hard a skill to pick up.

Cgcc

17th November 2020, 07:24 PM

I would add that a convenient plate-holder is really necessary. If you have all your plates set up and accessible you will tend to go for them without fuss. If they are buried in a drawer and need to be taken out and attached to something, then all packed up and put away later, you will avoid it / put it off.

Ie, think about your overall workflow.

Robson Valley

18th November 2020, 03:32 AM

I was taught freehand sharpening of wood carving tools with waterstones and honing on a box card strop.
Three little things you need:
1. A 10X magnifier such as geologists use. You must be able to see the edge clearly to evaluate your progress.
2. A black felt marker to color the edge. Then you can see EXACTLY where the metal is coming off.
3. Some means of measuring the stock bevel angles. No guessing if you want reproducibility.
I have a small protractor device, originally meant for measuring drill bit tip angles.

havabeer69

20th November 2020, 09:36 AM

thanks for the unicorn method link.

chisels turned up, i'd say there sharp but not shiny/shaving sharp so will need a final hone i think.

i do happen to have one of those stand style light and magnifying combos and a bevel measuring tool.

NeilS

29th November 2020, 11:09 AM

1. A 10X magnifier such as geologists use. You must be able to see the edge clearly to evaluate your progress.

All three of those small and inexpensive requirements recommended by RV are invaluable, IME, regardless of your sharpening method.

And of those, the 10x lens has been the most invaluable for me. So much so that I always carry one with me so it is readily available whenever I need it in the workshop, bush, men's shed, backyard or kitchen.

delbs

12th February 2021, 06:01 PM

What did you end up buying? I'm the bling of these two stones, one being a combo stone https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210212/073aba4c0111a945e91be246df2bffcc.jpg

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elanjacobs

12th February 2021, 07:17 PM

Side note: those Shinto saw rasps are fantastic as well. Such a simple concept...

taz01

12th February 2021, 07:58 PM

The rasps are awesome.

I'm at the disadvantage of being just around the corner from JTA which isn't healthy on the wallet.

delbs

12th February 2021, 08:32 PM

Is there any issues with going from a 3000 grit to 12,000? Is there a need to have say a 5 or 6000 grit in between?

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riverbuilder

13th February 2021, 09:13 AM

Side note: those Shinto saw rasps are fantastic as well. Such a simple concept...
Link please?

taz01

13th February 2021, 11:15 AM

Link please?Flat Files | Japanese Tools Australia (https://www.japanesetools.com.au/collections/flat-files)

NeilS

13th February 2021, 11:20 AM

Is there any issues with going from a 3000 grit to 12,000? Is there a need to have say a 5 or 6000 grit in between?

As a general rule with sharpening abrasives, I generally work on a minimum of doubling intervals.

eg. 1,000 -> 2,000-> 4,000 -> 8,000

Bigger intervals will eventually work, but it will just take longer to remove the previous deeper and coarser abrasive tracks.

Keep in mind that it is only the very edge that needs to go down to your finest grit stone to get the best cutting results. Other than cosmetics, there is no benefit in having anything other than the very edge taken to that level of surface finish. Most of the bevel can be left with a coarse abrasion on it (like off the bench grinder) without any detriment to cutting performance.

PS - It is different for me with woodturning abrasives. There I work on a minimum of half step intervals to ensure that no deeper abrasive marks are left anywhere on the piece... well, that is my aim!

delbs

13th February 2021, 02:31 PM

Ok interesting thanks for the feedback

I'm thinking this would be a good set to help my hnt and Stanley blades

Set of Japanese Water Stones | Japanese Tools Australia (https://www.japanesetools.com.au/collections/the-jta-sharpening-range/products/cerax-waterstone-by-suehiro-3-pcs-set)

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qwertyu

13th February 2021, 09:42 PM

I am a complete novice but I use the unicorn method and get it sharp with virtually no effort, skill and time.

Prior to that I was using the veritas sharpening jig with cerax stones from JTA, then switched the cast iron plates with diamond paste. It was a lot more effort to get the same result.

Robson Valley

14th February 2021, 04:29 AM

The late Leonard Lee wrote: The Complete Guide to Sharpening (ISBN 976-1-56158-125-2.)
You will find 2 pages of scanning electron microscope pictures which show that there is, in fact, little benefit
in working beyond 1,500 grit (3 micron) before honing with some 1-2 micron compound.
Steels are just too plastic without the molecular constriction of flint or obsidian.

So, I put my water stones and diamond plates away.
I use 3M silicon carbide sand papers with satisfactory results.
My goal is "carving sharp" to work in very soft wood without crushing anything.
I finish with CrOx/AlOx on a hard card strop, leather is too soft to be at all useful.

delbs

14th February 2021, 10:23 AM

We'll see that's what I'm trying to find out. I already have a granite flat stone for years with sandpaper has been working ok but I just read and see so many other woodworkers with Waterstones of some form and the razor sharp edges they can get due to the higher grit.

I've just been picking up my sheets of sandpaper from the big green shed as they have up to 1500 wet and dry but it can tear, need to get the stronger type. Will check out the sandpaper man

I'm finding these kits of different brands of water stones but when you pick up 3 or 4 the coast quickly adds up compared to specific sheets of sandpaper on a stone. So many parts for sharpening that can cost a lot. Hmmm

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delbs

14th February 2021, 10:23 AM

NeilS

14th February 2021, 03:34 PM

I'm finding these kits of different brands of water stones but when you pick up 3 or 4 the coast quickly adds up compared to specific sheets of sandpaper on a stone. So many parts for sharpening that can cost a lot. Hmmm

I'm not a fan of buying sets of whatever, especially where the buy in cost is high.

If you want to try waterstones I suggest you buy or borrow just one stone and see how you get along with it.

My suggestion is that you start with about a 5 micron stone (ie, 2.5k to 3k Jp grit size) and use that after 1,000 abrasive paper on your existing granite block. You shouldn't need to go back to 1,000 grit very often.

After the 3k stone strop the wire edge off with something like chromium oxide on a firm strop (like Robson Valley uses).

You may find you don't need any of the more expensive finer grit stones above a 3k stone.

You will need something to keep your stone flat. Something like a 600 - 800 grit wet and dry paper on you granite block would work ok to get you going. I prefer to flatten my stones while wet.

I expect there is someone in or around Canberra who has an idle stone of about that grit size they could lend you for a bit to try out... anyone????

If you were closer I would have been happy to let you have one of mine to try.

PS - many western sharpening gurus don't finish off on very fine grit stones, but strop off the wire edge and re-strop several times before going back to a stone or grinder.

PPS - IME, a diamond plate is more useful (for many purposes) than having waterstones below #1,000 grit.

GraemeCook

14th February 2021, 04:06 PM

Also have a look at the massive amount of research and experience on Derek's website as he developed and refined his own sharpening practices.
Woodwork Techniques (https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html)

My experience is that you are chasing a moving target. As your technique improves then you raise your targets. A sharper tool simply is easier to use!

D.W.

15th February 2021, 12:47 AM

You need to be able to grind steel and then focus honing on the bit that actually cuts.

To get started (i don't use guides, but it's helpful to get angles nailed down early), PSA roll sandpaper to grind, and then at a slightly steeper angle hone the tip of the tool.

If you use a medium stone (equivalent to 3k or 4k grit waterstone, etc), then you'll need to strop. If you use a very fine abrasive (i'd prefer aluminum oxide polishing pastes to expensive stones, or loose close graded abrasive - same), then no great need to strop.

PSA roll at 80 grit would be my choice for grinding -it can be stuck to a relatively flat piece of wood, or you can put it on glass or something else. The less honing you do and the more focused at the tip of the tool, the better you'll do (because you'll actually end up working the tip of the tool with the fine stone). Large changes in dimension or angles done at the grinding level and maintenance of final angle, squareness, reference to something important (like the sole on a tool that uses a skew iron) done with the medium and fine stones, not the grinder.

Fortunately, you'll never need a tormek, and they're actually slower than something like a honing guide and 80 grit psa paper - the virtue of them is that they do work, but they appear wonderful only if used infrequently and never compared to other methods for time or flexibility.

Robson Valley

15th February 2021, 04:27 AM

I found that seeing is believing. The scanning electron microscope pictures are very revealing.
All steel is too soft and too plastic at the thin edge to expect "really sharp."
Lee Valley Veritas "green" honing compound is a mix of CrOx (0.5 micron) with AlOx (0.25 micron).
This takes the place of any other abrasives on papers.

Actually, the compound from KMS Tools here seems to be a harder wax carrier and a much greater % of compound.
But since I abandoned my leather strop, I don't really care any more.

Imagine trying to slice an over-ripe tomato with a dull knife.
I require "carving sharp" to work in woods as soft as western red cedar and yellow cedar.
Too soft even to use a cabinet scraper on surfaces.
It's a step up from shaving sharp which I would never need to do with my crooked knives.

Anyway, after studying the SEM pictures, I decided it would be no loss to change what all I do.
1500 on paper then hone with green. Do the damn experiment and evaluate the results.
Here I am. It worked just fine and dandy. All my crooked knives and gouges.

Of course a key fact is knowing the bevel angle and reproducing that, every time after time.

D.W.

15th February 2021, 04:51 AM

The Veritas green (formax) is actually a lot more coarse than that. 0.5 micron is supposedly the average particle size, but the large particles do far more work than they would and the large ones dominate.

But it makes it more practical as a final hone substitute (the large alumina particles are capable of the work whereas 0.5 graded particles (chrome ox) and 0.25 micron al-ox are both slow and wouldn't follow a 1500 grit hone well).

i don't have an SEM, but I do have a metallurgical scope. When you get to about a micron uniformly graded, most visible scratches are gone.

0.5 chrome ox picture attached on a razor edge (far more demanding than tools as the apex is only about 16 degrees and it's easy for the tip of the edge to show scratches as it's fragile)

489611

I don't have a good picture of the formax at an edge, just on a wide surface (chisel back) After using on corian.
https://i.imgur.com/l1ZPXX7.jpg

(this is stored on my imgur account, can't find the original picture).

Interestingly, closely graded 1 micron diamond on wood (only 10 bucks for a bunch of it - 25 bucks for a decades worth)

https://i.imgur.com/x6Z0gbz.jpg

I've got oxides down to .09 micron (iron oxide), 1/10th micron diamond and 0.3 micron linde A aluminum oxide (a full pound of it - it's fluffy and a pound is probably 2/3rds of a gallon volume). All three of those are too slow to be practical for woodworking, but would be OK on a loaded strop that isn't expected to really refine an edge much).

D.W.

15th February 2021, 04:56 AM

(the chase for ultra fine is usually tainted by peoples' inability to get the actual edge fully refined with the ultra fine. When I did my plane iron testing, I did find a fair bit more edge life with 1 micron diamonds than any typical sharpening stone aside maybe from a shapton 30k. I would never waste the money on a shapton 30k, but $10 for diamonds to be used on a metal substrate is nothing.

What I found was that 1 micron diamond lasts about 20% longer in feet planed than the 8000 grit class of waterstones or good quality oilstones, but my comment still stands - most people don't successfully finish an edge with ultra fine abrasives - it takes a significant bias to be working only the tip of a tool either by hand or with a guide, and removing back wear with 1 micron diamonds to a complete level under a microscope is fairly slow)

I generally sharpen using a washita despite all of the above - I can use do a better job with a washita than most people will do with a shapton cream.

I know most people won't believe that, so here's the edge picture of a washita finish:
https://i.imgur.com/pRyqHc4.jpg

And the shapton cream (the glasstones are a little more closely graded, but the cream is faster - an 8k king looks similar to this).
https://i.imgur.com/cGOlRds.jpg

I'd encourage the beginner reading this thread to get a stone that's fast enough to complete the job first and then work finer later. I've never received an iron from anyone that looked like these pictures under the scope - there's always damage or deep scratching still left in the edge.

D.W.

15th February 2021, 04:58 AM

just for giggles - 0.5micron chrome ox on corian to compare to the formax microfine / LV green above.

https://i.imgur.com/MbZ5trE.jpg

You can see just how much work the large stray particles in the LV stuff will do - they are completely absent on the visible spectrum with 0.5 micron graded chrome ox. This is the back of a chisel.

Robson Valley

15th February 2021, 06:13 AM

So, what's the answer? What's the recommended set up for a beginner that won't break the bank?

I've got just what I need using a variety of 3M fine automotive, wet & dry finishing sand papers up to 1500 grit.
3M reports that silicon carbide has a nominal particle size of 3 microns.
Edge inspections under bright LED light indicate starting with 600 for a damaged edge (eg hitting a sand grain).
Starting with 800 for edges just worn down. Then 1,000. Then 1,200. Then 1,500.

After seeing the SEM pictures, I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by stopping at 1,500 then hone.
Everything from spoke shaves to crooked knives and elbow adzes. It's all worked very well in very soft woods.

Just about every edge I use has a sweep to it. Crooked knives, they are. Flat abrasives are no help.
I'm using pieces of pipe and dowels as mandrels with the papers wrapped around them.
I use a tennis ball for the adzes.

yvan

15th February 2021, 07:56 AM

I have Shapton waterstones - 1 - 2 - 5 & 8k - as well as W&D on plates of glass in a range of grits from 80 to 1200P.
(I was able the recycle the glass top of defunct bathroom weighing scales.)

For some reason or another, I seem to get a wire edge on either my chisels or plane blades much more easily using the W&D than on my stones.
As a result I gravitate to the glass plates, particularly when I just want to refresh the edge of a chisel: a few passes on 360, 600, 800 & 1200P followed by a strop. It is quick and seems to work.

What I find a bit frustrating is that I have no reference point to judge how really sharp my edge is and it would be nice to be able to use a really sharp chisel just to experience how it feel!

Cheers,
Yvan

kph

15th February 2021, 03:20 PM

Hi
I will give you the same advice that I/we give all our apprentices at TAFE.

All you need is a good bench grinder with two different grades of stone with solid adjustable tool rests. Then a diamond plate for honing. We only use and train the students on these two items. We do not use nor teach how to use honing guides I (I've never used one in 46 years).
Why? well to keep it simple. The bench grinder 'hollow' grinds and the diamond plate (which is almost indestructible) does the honing. Apprentices of any age can be very hard on machinery (like the Tormek) and even more if they had water stones (I do not think they would last 5 mins in the workshop). There we have used the same proven system for years.
In regards to the honing guide, personally (I just asked a few of the other teachers at lunch as well) we think that are a waste of time and money. Learn to do it my hand and feel. It does not take a lot of practice, more patience. But at least grind your chisels at the right angle and the honing will be a lot easier to master.
Sure you can invest in expensive water stones and sharpening systems but as you are starting out start with the basics and then progress.
Hope that helps and saves you some money
Kevin

rustynail

16th February 2021, 06:07 PM

As above but I would recommend a slow bench grinder. Many a good chisel has been ruined by a fast grinder by beginers.

delbs

16th February 2021, 06:26 PM

Are these the type of wheel people are referring to for their grinders?

I have an 8" Abbott and Ashby bench grinder so probably not a slow grinder but from what I can see these wheels don't generate much heat

Grinding Wheel 150mm Bench Grinding Wheel Aluminium Oxide - White BW 15020-32 AW 80 HSS | PFERD (https://www.pferd.com.au/150mm-bench-grinding-wheel-aluminium-oxide-white-b)

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Robson Valley

17th February 2021, 06:29 AM

The tool edge must be awfully badly banged up to ever need a bench grinder. I have a 6 speed bench grinder that I will never use
for any kind of sharpening of wood working tools. Certainly not a $100.00 elbow adze blade.
I use it to remake edges from one thing into something else ( e.g. change a skew into a stop chisel).

A very bright light, a 10X magnifier and a black felt marker are the 3 most important sharpening accessories.
Do all the finishing work by hand. It's slow, only needed once and no chance of cooking the tool.

D.W.

17th February 2021, 07:00 AM

The risk of burning is overstated (though I'm not telling someone who likes to use a manual method that they shouldn't do it), and quite often due to subtle choices.

I've long used a full speed grinder, first with a coarse wheel and now with CBN. But, as CBN has gotten tired (I am a heavy user because I also make tools), it's no longer appropriate for anything on mine other than slow hollow refreshes.

What do I use for large adjustments? The coolest grinding fast device you'll find is something like a 5000 foot per minute belt grinder. There is no such thing in a reasonable cost range.

The next step down is a 24 grit wheel on a bench grinder (it can be full speed). the 24 grit wheels are almost like an open matrix (less dense than typical wheels). I use one on a full speed 8" grinder, which is often described as a no-no tool. If it had an 80 grit white wheel, it would blue a chisel in a hurry.

The 24 grit wheel with a light touch will outrun a broken in CBN wheel speed for speed and heat for heat despite the high wheel speed of my grinder.

IF you are thinking of doing significant work on a grinder and worried about burning an edge, take a paper towel and fold it into a rectangle about 8 layers thick and soak it or spray it until it's soaked with water. Let it sit all the way up to the edge on the chisel and you won't be able to burn the edge of the chisel. Put your finger pressure on the paper towel to push the chisel into the wheel - that assures you that you will not be applying pressure unless you're also putting water against the back of the tool drawing heat away from the edge.

If you are thinking "what happens when the grinder catches the paper towel". Nothing, it grinds paper towel off and you'll feel a light spray of stuff on your face. reset everything and go. When the water gets warm, you will feel it, but it will not boil off quickly.

I can easily grind by hand - why do I not do it? speed and precision. I like to hone just a bit of the tool bevel and the back, and I want a result that one would get working a flat bevel for half an hour. I want it in less than a minute. I also adjust squareness or reference to a cap iron freehand and the smaller the stripe of metal I'm working with the stones, the easier it is to make small adjustments all the time.

Remember - coarse wheel on a grinder first, worry about the composition of it second.

24 grit wheels are available here at industrial supply - they're slightly more expensive than the cheapest gray wheel, but by no means expensive. Perhaps $28 for a large 8" wheel, and half of that for a 6"x3/4 wheel.

(I did burn a chisel last week hand grinding it on a sandpaper lap - I thought I would make an entertaining video about heat and what's really required to maintain tools by hand - nothing expensive. I browned the corner of a chisel - like a fraction of a mm of the edge. I ignored it, honed it, and it works fine. Brown is only slightly off from factory tempering, and a tiny fraction of time getting to brown vs. tempering for half an hour to that temperature is almost unnoticeable).

Steels that don't spark are the worst for grinding heat. XHP/PM V11 grinds half as fast as O1 and creates a lot more heat. It's not unmanageable, but if you get used to good sparking steels, it's annoying. When I received a LV chisel last year to perform testing for a sharpening method, It needed to be ground back and I found no virtue in it based on the grinding - steels that grind well are better for an experienced woodworker than wondersteel's a-z. slow grinding and slow honing is a pain, as you'll damage the edge of almost anything form time to time, and grinding out damage on a steel that grinds a third or a half as fast as high hardness O1 is a nuisance - the fact that the slow grinding steel also doesn't shed the sparking very well compounds the problem and slows things down further.

Robson Valley

17th February 2021, 03:41 PM

I would certainly like to have a stationary belt sander.
I made a stop chisel (double bevel) from a skew. Very pleased with the efforts.
In any case, best for the rough-out stage, there's no finesse.

I claimed that I do all the fine finishing sharpening work by hand and not by machine.
Taken to the limit, of course over-heating from inept grinding is an issue.
As a fact, it becomes more important as the edge becomes thinner and thinner.
So I stop when I get the basic shape I want.
Silicon carbide papers or diamond plates create very satisfactory edges.

GraemeCook

17th February 2021, 04:26 PM

...
I made a stop chisel (double bevel) from a skew. ...

You have used a couple of terms that I am not familiar with, Robson. Don't know if its because they are carving terms or that you are on the other side of the Pacific. Perhaps you can enlighten me:

stop chisel, and
double bevel (on a chisel).

... Silicon carbide papers or diamond plates create very satisfactory edges.

Agreed, and when I used to use the "scary sharp" sharpening technique I found that the common white aluminium oxide sandpapers worked fine too.

NeilS

17th February 2021, 06:24 PM

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, this thread began with a request for advice on a basic setup for sharpening some bench chisels. We have had some excellent input around that from some of our practitioners.

But, keep in mind as you read this thread that sharpening blades for other purposes may benefit from quite different methods. Some of us need to sharpen blades for a range of purposes. One method won't necessarily do equally well for all blades and their uses.

Before you go too far down the path of any one particular method, think about what other sharpening you need to do. This may influence your decision and maybe save you some money.

Robson Valley

17th February 2021, 06:31 PM

A stop chisel for carvers has a double bevel. The total included bevel angle still should be something like 20 degrees.
The term arises in the London Pattern Book. Used by makers such as Henry Taylor, Ashley Iles, Pfeil and Stubai.
I had a Pfeil 1/8 and wanted something a little bit wider. I jointed a Narex 1S/12 (skew) and ground a 20 degree double bevel into that.

Sharpening is the same as for any chisel or plane blade. The difference might be in lifting the tool axis only 10 degrees for each side.
Freehand was a pleasant task beyond the grinding rough-out.

NeilS

17th February 2021, 07:54 PM

The tool edge must be awfully badly banged up to ever need a bench grinder.... I will never use for any kind of sharpening of wood working tools.

Whereas, in my case, 8" bench grinders with CBN or diamond wheels is about all I use in my woodturning workshop. I turn wood, so I reckon I'm woodworking...:)

If I'm turning an 18" platter on the lathe at about 1,000 rpm my gouges are cutting off almost 1 mile of shavings per minute. Even with exotic steels, a sharp edge has a very brief life, but it only takes me seconds to resharpen a gouge on a full speed CBN grinder... hand resharpening would not be a viable option, at least for me.

But, in the kitchen, my knives are only hand sharpened on the very best waterstones I can afford and they remain super sharp for may weeks before needing to be hand re-honed.

As I wrote in a posting above, blades used for different purposes can benefit from quite different sharpening methods.

Apologies for going off topic...... back to the sharpening of bench chisels.

D.W.

18th February 2021, 09:37 AM

Neil is right - once the basic question is answered in these threads, the thread turns from the main stem of a tree into a whole bunch of branches, but nobody makes lumber from branches just as most of the subsequent details make much usefulness to someone new.

So, here's a tip from me that you *will* be able to make something of as someone new, and don't let anyone tell you that it's not useful through their lens - their edges would probably look bad under mine.

Find yourself one of the small cigar shaped USB microscopes and use it to look at edges when you start. You will see things you can't see otherwise, and you can use this kind of thing for lazy purposes. Nothing matters on an edge other than geometry (edge provides support) and the polish level in the last several thousandths of an inch. Any other work done further up the tool is a waste of time unless it has a cosmetic purpose (on high end knives, etc).

But what I see far more regularly when I get tools in to refit is a lot of polish on parts of the tool that aren't in the cut and a lack of it at the very tip (or a lack of finishing the job).

search something like "hand held USB microscope" and just make sure the software that comes with the scope works with your operating system - anything that's $20 or $100 is pretty much the same thing, so don't spend more than the cheap ones.

You can use a scope like this also to teach yourself to get the most out of a given abrasive. Oilstones are always less refined than fine waterstones, right?

washita:
https://i.imgur.com/pRyqHc4.jpg

shapton 12,000 waterstone:
https://i.imgur.com/cGOlRds.jpg

The shapton 30k stones are finer than anything else you can get, right? (Sorry, no specific pictures for them, but the answer is no - $10 of graded abrasive is at least as fine and if used on wood instead of metal backer, greatly finer than a $360 shapton 30k glassstone).

But most importantly, just a little bit of time with the scope will let you see when you've finished the process sharpening and you can use it to look from edge to edge quickly.

Robson Valley

19th February 2021, 11:16 AM

Sorry, Neil, I keep thinking in terms of finishing work in wood carving.

The need for the magnifier, USB or a 10X geologist's loupe (solid state, no moving parts, no power required) is this:

If the tool has a sharp edge, there is nothing for light to be reflected by.
So you don't see anything.
However, when the tool edge is worn down or damaged in some way, the edge will have flat spots and they do reflect light.
Those are what I call "sparks" of light.

These are easy to see with sharp light as from a modern LED source.

Bad and I think of beginning with 600 grit.
Just a few sparks and not so bad? I'll begin on 800 then inspect the edge to see if I ground away the damage.
Maybe have to slip back to 600.

The scanning Electron Microscope pictures show just how soft steel appears to be at magnification.
The resolution is a dramatic improvement over light microscopes (so is the price).
What I gained from those was that going beyond 1,500 grit (3M = 3 microns) isn't an effective improvement.
My honing compound is 0.5 0.25 micron nominal particle size. It's effective as a final step
that needs repeating in hand work every 20-30 minutes.

D.W.

19th February 2021, 11:39 AM

This is sort of true (the visual appearance of 1500), but there are situations where it's not.

For example, a 1500 grit edge will only plane for something less than 65 percent of the footage of a 1 micron diamond edge. The 1 micron diamond edge can be added to the 1500 grit edge in the same time it would take to manage a wire edge from the 1500 grit edge.

I have only a visual metallurgical scope (along with the above mentioned cheaper cigar scopes). What I have found is that uniform abrasives around a micron just about eliminate visible scratches on steel. That's actually handy, as visible scratches left on steel will also indicate shorter edge life. (this has been confirmed by more than me).

If you do something to damage a chisel or carving tool, then this long (planing) life isn't going to be experienced. But the extra mile with no extra time is worth it on the planing side. All kinds of little manipulations of the tip of the tool at a high polish are worthwhile, but we can skip it here other than to say you can take a rubbery dime store iron and plane wood with silica in it without damaging the iron. Lack of edge damage even in nasty wood allows continued wood and really lowers the frustration level.

Surface brightness on wood is generally better up to about 8k, and then improvement is marginal. If you sand after planing or carving, then it really doesn't amount to much.

If the context is banging out joinery where the cut will never be seen, then really anything that is done to sharpen with the burr removed is fine and all of this grit talk is no big deal.

The nice thing about fineness, though - it costs almost nothing to get (despite snake oil salesmen and really expensive concoctions with alumina abrasive) - 1 micron diamond on cast is great, but so is autosol on medium hardwood or hard softwood - the finish level is about the same, and it needs to be done only at the tip.

Scopes doing visible light also have one nice side function (that happens by chance). On anything, including straight razors, the perception of edge improvement pretty much stops at the visible spectrum. If you see damage or coarseness at an edge, you will be able to feel it. You'll also be able to feel it in a plane when planing (and potentially see lines on work, or same with carving - if you're going to carve to finish without scraping or sanding, you need edge uniformity). As far as the razor goes, though, once a razor is satisfactory to the visible spectrum, there's nothing really to gain going finer, but if you are able to see finer, you may be convinced that it's still worth chasing (it's not).

In terms of 1500 grit edges and where they come up short? Unsuitable for smooth planing if you don't sand, and paring a show surface. I make planes for fun - if this style:
https://i.imgur.com/RnBIwC0.jpg

The front and back of the planes have four pared bevels. Even a washita edge can come up short on two of them - two will always be with the grain, two slightly against. Quartered beech isn't necessarily as agreeable as the stuff carvers like to use (butternut, balsa, mahogany, etc) but that surface has to be pared. It can't be sanded or scraped or anything else - if it's not pared cleanly, it loses its crispness.

D.W.

19th February 2021, 11:45 AM

we may be speaking the same language, though - if you're using your compound enough to completely remove all of the 1500 grit scratches, we're ending in the same place.

Here's two pictures:
* an edge that wasn't that refined, but the tip was refined by a quick buff with 1 micron compound:
https://i.imgur.com/XmxkY1k.jpg

You can see the scratches terminate just behind the end, and that the buffer finish is probably not all 1 micron - there are some very faint scratches. They can't be seen with the naked eye on a wood surface and are quickly worn off. The bigger scratches behind the tip would leave a hazy surface

* https://i.imgur.com/Pop9wfo.jpg

This picture is a 1 micron diamond treatment as part of a plane iron durability test - it takes four times as long to sharpen an iron this way vs. the one above (ignore the little fuzzies and black lines, they're probably filaments of shirt fabric, etc). The feel, surface left and durability of both is identical.

These are the things that you can learn with a scope and why I mentioned above that it's necessary for someone who is going to be appropriately lazy to get a scope.

Would you rather sharpen 4 minutes each time, or 1 minute? I know what I'd rather do. I don't know that I'd have backed into this without looking at edges.

(the buffed edge is also stronger and more resistant to early cycle chipping, but without giving up any significant edge life).

NeilS

19th February 2021, 01:35 PM

Thanks DW and RV for the sharpening clinic...:)

I agree with you both of you that some form of magnification is invaluable in understanding your edge during sharpening.

As a minimum I have found that a 30x and/or 60x loupe is essential to see what is going on at the edge. I always carry one with me between the locations where I sharpen various edges. I've found that a strong source of light is another important factor when examining the edge (... image brightness is inversely proportional to the magnification squared).

As a rule of thumb you need to go to about 500x magnifiction to see 1 micron. At that magnification steadiness becomes a factor and handheld is no longer an option... and definitely not for any of us seniors...:no:

I've also gone through various digital scopes that claim to go at least to 500x, but with mixed success. They are invaluable if you want to communicate with others about the results you are getting from your sharpening methods. I reckon they deserve a separate thread for any of the sharpologists here who would like to chew the fat on that.

D.W.

19th February 2021, 01:57 PM

My digital scopes that claim 500x or 600x are actually about 100x optical. The metallurgical scope pictures that I posted are about 150x optical. My metallurgical scope goes to 600x optical, but little things are magnified so far that it gets tough to get enough in a picture to get context.

The cigar shaped scopes that do a true 100x optical will show most any difference you can feel or see on a wood surface.

I have a metallurgical scope only because I was selling Japanese natural stones for a while and it takes a decent microscope to ethically grade them based on scratch pattern.

NeilS

19th February 2021, 01:58 PM

sorry, neil, i keep thinking in terms of finishing work in wood carving.

..... how does the saying; to the man with a hammer everything looks like a nail (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument)

We are all prone to that... :U

NeilS

19th February 2021, 02:20 PM

NeilS

19th February 2021, 07:53 PM

OK, we definitely need a separate thread on the new economy digital scopes to work through those issues.

I'll kick something off.

Here is a start.... Economy digital scopes (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/economy-digital-scopes-240232#post2230434)

havabeer69

21st February 2021, 01:01 PM

Op here.

In the end i have bought an 8" bench grinder with a linsher attachment. I intended to buy a buff to give my narex chisels just that final hone, but with two young kids and 1000 other projects going on i havent needed to use either.

Ended up getting an abbot and ashley with a 50mm belt and 7" disc for just under $500

The grinder and linsher are a great general use tool in any home workshop. I took the stone off and have a 200mm wire wheel and am looking at a 200mm stitched buff for general polishing and honing of these chisels ready for use.

Sandpaper man has belts going up to 1200grit so might be worth knocking up a jig to quickly touch up any edges on it rather then buying a dedicated grinder.

For the amount of use they will probably get it might almost be just as easy to pay to get them sharpened and just hone as required?