Making a few hand saws

[M Williams]

Hello guys, I'm usually on a U.S. site and I completely forgot about this one. This looks like a pretty busy forum with a few saw makers.

Maybe you guys can help me out with some backsaw making advise.

So far I'm learning as I go. Spent a considerable amount of time tuning in a Foley 385 retoother. Very happy with it. Using 1095 shim stock .020. I toothed a couple with 14ppi.

Handles are getting faster, though I have a few ruined ones lol. Here's a picture of my first successful one.

One problem I'm having is finding saw parts readily. Well to clarify, hard to find folded saw backs. I have gotten slotted ones from Blackburn Tools. Do you guys know of a current source for folded ones?


Matthew

[planemaker]

Blake, Rob Streeper makes his own folded backs.

He's a member of this forum site.

Note he's also based in USA Texas.


About rob streeper

Location:San Antonio, Texas, USA

[M Williams]

Thank you I sent him a pm asking if he was still in business. His website hasn't shown new items in a while.

[M Williams]

My first teeth cut. Before I sharpened and completely disassembled the retoother for a overhaul. You can kinda see it in the picture but it wasn't sharp enough.

I'll cut 2nd plate soon. Had to order new spring clips. But the first should still file up ok. 8° degree rake. 14 ppi.

[IanW]

Hi Matt, & welcome to the intriguing world of backsaw making..

With respect to backs, I have been unable to convince myself that there is any inherent superiority in folded backs vs slotted ones, but it does depend on how you apply them. To get the best effect from any back, they need to fit well. The fit should be firm but not over-tight. I find the best way to achieve this with a slotted back is to cut the slot slightly over size, then squeeze it up a bit in a vice 'til you get he desired firmness. It's a bit of a delicate business squeezing it to get just the right 'tightness' without over-doing it. Mine usually end up a little tighter at the ends than in the middle, but that seems to work well.

A well-fitted back does more than simply add stiffness to the plate, it applies a little tension to the top of the blade, which holds it straight. The spine is added as the last step, after the plate is bolted into the handle: Tap it on about 3/8-1/2 inch forward of where it will eventually be, then tap it back til it seats nicely in the handle, checking that the plate remains nice & straight during the process. This is Rob Streeper's method, which adds a bit of tension to the top of the blade. It made sense when I read it because several articles on restoring old saws I've come across mentioned adjusting the spine by tapping up & down or back & forth to straighten seemingly buckled plates.

To work best, the slot needs to be comfortably deeper than you intend setting the blade. My early saws had too-shallow slots and nt understanding their function fully, I "bottomed" the plate in the spines . I suspect that this might be a reason why folded backs are claimed to be superior, because the "slot" is much deeper than many of the slotted backs I've seen. A deeper slot makes it easier to squeeze a bit of "pinch" into the brass & gives you more room to manoeuvre when adjusting during the fitting process.

To this end, glueing or riveting spines to the plate as some do seems like you are removing one of the critical functions of the spine..

OTH, there is a bloke in England who has gone to the other extreme, and fitted an elaborate tensioning device (https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/mallard-saw)inside the handle of one of his top-of-the-range saws. The theory is ok, but it seems like gilding the Lilly to me. He certainly makes nice-looking "conventional" saws, worth ogling, but the prices are all a bit above what I could afford to pay for a back saw!

Cheers,

[Cgcc]

That's a very nice looking saw handle, Matthew! Top-drawer.

Out of interest what finish do you use on it?

Chris

[M Williams]

IanW, thank you for the advise. To clarify... you slot your brass and then press it some to get a good pinch or grab? No glue of any kind and you only go on the blade about half way? Basically, you treat it like a folded back?

Chris, thank you! I messed up a few but I'm getting better. Couple coats of clear shellac.

[Cgcc]

Thanks Matthew

I've often contemplated how Veritas get their saw handles so glossy. But I have noticed if anything I think they're too glossy - at certain angles they actually create glare. Shellac seems to be a good balance - posh but a little understated.

[IanW]

.... To clarify... you slot your brass and then press it some to get a good pinch or grab? No glue of any kind and you only go on the blade about half way? Basically, you treat it like a folded back?....

Yes, yes, and yes. :)

To expand a bit on that: For a typical 1/4 x 3/4" spine, I cut the slot 1/2-9/16" deep, i.e. leaving somewhere between 1/8 & 5/32 at full thickness, which approximates a folded back, structurally.

With a bit of rounding of the top & tapering of the bottom, you can make a slotted back look enough like a folded one that it takes a second look to spot it: 486664

However, I usually make no attempt to disguise it, but take advantage of the straight corners to do some chamfers and little decorative flourishes: 486665

When pinching, take it very carefully until you get a feel for how much clamping pressure you need to close your slot up to the desired tightness. Watch the slot, & you should see it close as you squeeze, but be aware it'll spring back on release. The only brass readily available to me in appropriate sizes for spines is 'hard' machinable grade (C3800), which springs back more than softer brasses, so it will depend on what grade of brass you use. Just squeeze/test/squeeze/test until you've got it how you want.

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

OTH, there is a bloke in England who has gone to the other extreme, and fitted an elaborate tensioning device (https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/mallard-saw)inside the handle of one of his top-of-the-range saws. The theory is ok, but it seems like gilding the Lilly to me. He certainly makes nice-looking "conventional" saws, worth ogling, but the prices are all a bit above what I could afford to pay for a back saw!

Cheers,

Ian

Agreed. Only a nice price if you are the seller.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Matthew

A little while ago I undertook a backsaw project and the spine was one of the issues I had. I had tried folding metal myself both in brass and steel and had three absolute disasters. Rob Streeper certainly used to fold backs, but I think his time may be completely taken up with his other enterprise at the moment. His health also took something of a king hit at the beginning of this year when that wretched virus laid him low.

Anyhow, to return to my project, there I was quite spineless (I recall an ex girlfriend one describing me exactly the same way when I think about it, It occured to me she was not entirely happy :no:

IanW came to rescue with his slotted backs for which I was very grateful. I was trying to replicate some old saws from the eighteenth century and they needed to be rounded and if possible look folded. It was easier to do than I had anticipated:

Some details can be seen here (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f278/crazy-service-223133/4)

American saws traditionally seemed to prefer polished or blued steel backs, but I really like brass.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Matthew,
Nothing really to add, that the others haven’t already added, except I personally think Matthews or Matt’s generally make excellent saws.[emoji6]

Cheers Matt.
I feel another saw coming on!!

[M Williams]

If you guys run into anyone else making backs, please let me know. Or I might have to start experimenting. Lol, I'm gonna try at some point I'm sure anyway. But for now let's see if all Matthews can make saws. I have acquired 4 slotted backs and I was lucky enough to catch Erik Florip Toolworks when he made a few unstamped folded backs. He is pretty busy now and isn't really selling backs at the moment. But I was able to get 5 from him and they are in the mail now.

So stay tuned as I make a few saws and hopefully get better as I go.

I currently have a 42x sawset. But recently rewired a bemaco rapid saw set. We will see if I can get it tuned and adjusted just right. I am also getting a 281 foley trip-hammer set soon as well.

- - - Updated - - -

If you guys run into anyone else making backs, please let me know. Or I might have to start experimenting. Lol, I'm gonna try at some point I'm sure anyway. But for now let's see if all Matthews can make saws. I have acquired 4 slotted backs and I was lucky enough to catch Erik Florip Toolworks when he made a few unstamped folded backs. He is pretty busy now and isn't really selling backs at the moment. But I was able to get 5 from him and they are in the mail now.

So stay tuned as I make a few saws and hopefully get better as I go.

I currently have a 42x sawset. But recently rewired a bemaco rapid saw set. We will see if I can get it tuned and adjusted just right. I am also getting a 281 foley trip-hammer set soon as well.

[Bushmiller]

So far I'm learning as I go. Spent a considerable amount of time tuning in a Foley 385 retoother.

Matthew

I had meant to comment that I am very envious of you having this machine. It would be worth it's weight in files and sweat.

Good to hear you have sourced some folded backs. and we will look forward to seeing some pix.

Regards and all the best for the festive season
Paul

[M Williams]

I meant to ask before but how are you guys cutting your saw plate?

My current way involves a cutoff wheel and sparks lol.

[Simplicity]

I meant to ask before but how are you guys cutting your saw plate?

My current way involves a cutoff wheel and sparks lol.

We are all basically the same hear,
My preference is a thin cut off wheel and sparks.
I know Ian likes to use some angle iron steel as a guide as well.

I just follow a scribe line then clean up with a file.

Cheers Matt.

[IanW]

I meant to ask before but how are you guys cutting your saw plate?

My current way involves a cutoff wheel and sparks lol.

Yep, I think that's the way most of us amateurs have figured out.

Clamp a couple of bits of 1/4" thick bar along the cut line to act as a guide & heat-sink. Cutting thin plate (20-25 thou) is very easy. If you use a fine wheel (1mm over here, so whatever the equivalent is in countries that are still using duodecimal units of measure :;), and move it through he cut smartly, you'll generate very little heat either side of he cut. Little dags of metal, especially at the ends of the cut, sometimes get red hot & cool rapidly enough to harden, so I always "joint" a fresh edge with a file that's nearing the end of its working life. You can easily feel any very hard spots, so just take a few more swipes until the resistance feels nice & even all along the edge. Guillotine-cut edges are often hard right along the edge, but it's only a couple of thou thick at the most, so again, a few swipes of a file gets you through it.

Cheers,

[BobL]

I have made a number of folded backs using 25mm by 2 or 3mm thick brass angle as the starting material.
The angle requires annealing before and several times during the folding process or it will crack, especially if a hammer is used for flattening.
Usually the first ~60% of the fold can be done safely before it needs re annealing, the remainder of the fold can be done in one go, but if to be sure I annealed mine again after about 95% of the fold was complete
On some backs I used a press to progressively fold the angle, stepping back and forth along the angle until there was minimal gap.
The slot comes out at about 22mm deep and the last fold after the 3rd annealing work hardens it enough to make the back quite springy so it gripped the blade wherever it was put.

On one back I had it folded about 95%, did the 3rd anneal and then used a lumpy to finish off and this made it even springier - ie work hardens the back.
This also produced a few dents in the surface but as there was plenty of meat on the back these came out easily with a linisher.

The annealing temp is brass type dependent but as I did not know what my brass angle was I used 600ºC for about half an hour. I was fortunate enough to have access to a +/-1º temperature calibrated furnace at work but I have also annealed brass using propane torch and a compact firebrick enclosure. I used one of those infra red thermometers to measure the temp.

The final result (esp using 3mm angle) is a heavy wide chunky pointy back so I did slim the whole thing down using a linisher with an aggressive and teh successively finer belts. On one back I removed some of the width using a table saw with a multipurpose negatively raked toothed blade.

To cut all my thin blade or tool steel stock I use this home made thin kerf cutting wheel table saw.
Its attached to 3P 1HP grinder on a VFD and also geared up to run at 12000rpm @60Hz
It has a fence (not shown) and mitre slide and is surprisingly accurate.
This is one of the most useful gizmos I have made - much better and safer than an angle grinder.

486739

The sparks are by and large captured in a baked bean can under the table - see red arrow.
Usually I have the spark guard down but the effectiveness of the DC snorkel connected to 20L steel drum spark (or hot metal) separator can also be seen.
486740

[M Williams]

Nice jig. I've seen similar ideas but not on a grinder. What size press did you use? Think a 20ton would be enough?

[BobL]

The one I used was a 20 ton but I don’t recall it being used to anywhere near its max press.

[M Williams]

I've been a little busy. It took some trial and error but I made some new toys for my press. I can now bend brass strips into a acute vee and flatten. Very happy with the results. Made two 10 inch backs.

I also bought a large 12 inch bench plate shear. It cuts the .093 brass fairly easily. Cuts my saw plate like butter. Cut out four more brass strips to fold and I hope to get some more plates cut tonight too.

[Simplicity]

I've been a little busy. It took some trial and error but I made some new toys for my press. I can now bend brass strips into a acute vee and flatten. Very happy with the results. Made two 10 inch backs.

I also bought a large 12 inch bench plate shear. It cuts the .093 brass fairly easily. Cuts my saw plate like butter. Cut out four more brass strips to fold and I hope to get some more plates cut tonight too.

Some pictures would be fantastic, un less there’s a patent or something pending[emoji6].

Cheers Matt.

[M Williams]

Brake isn't all that fancy. Measurements you gotta get right.

Shear isn't bolted yet, but I had to test it out lol. I think I will add an infeed table to help keep stock square.

[Bushmiller]

Good going Matthew.

Looks like you have the start of a production line going there. Nothing quite like "commitment." :)

I think it is fair to say you are well and truly hooked.

Regards
Paul

[M Williams]

You could say that...

[M Williams]

Well I've been a bit busy lately. Lots of saw restorations. But on the building front I have gotten a few more things figured out. First my mortises in the handles for the backs. I changed up my jig but I can get them straight and square every time now. Also got myself a drum sander. Makes life a little easier. And I ordered some stamps for the brass! It'll be a couple weeks but I'm pretty excited.

Stamping milled backs is easy enough but does anyone have experience stamping folded backs? Should I do so before the bend or after it is installed?

[IanW]

...... but does anyone have experience stamping folded backs? Should I do so before the bend or after it is installed?

Nope, no experience of stamping either kind of back. I can see how it could be a problem trying to press something on a folded or slotted back if there is nothing in the gap to support it while the stamp is being pressed in. I guess you're in for a little experimentation...
Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

Matthew

I have not had success with folding backs, mainly because I did not keep annealing the material, so I have no experience of stamping as I never got to that point. It occurs to me that stamping, presumably with a letter stamp or similar, is not much different to hammering the back flat. The danger is that the back will close up. The issue of a gap in the fold can be fixed with a piece of dummy blade placed in the gap. This will give a nearly solid piece of material to hit, but it could conceivably close up to the point of being difficult to extract the sacrificial piece of blade.

It could be that the stamping is only done when the back is in position on your real blade. There is still the possibility of the back closing up, but maybe this is not too much of an issue providing you don't wish to remove the back at any time.

Otherwise you have to stamp before folding and estimate where it will be once the folding has taken place. This may be the best bet.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Matthew,As Ian an Paul have pointed out, I think I would stamp before folding the back.

I would be worried if I stamped the back, after it was folded that I may “close” the back even more,especially up near the top of the fold which may be a little looser than down were the fold grips the saw plate.

Will you be using the stamp with a hammer or a fly press or something ?

Cheers Matt.