H&F Mini wood Lathe . Use for grinding tools? [Archive]

auscab

4th August 2021, 09:17 PM

I have mentioned this somewhere once . I don't remember where or what was said.

These H&F lathes.

W385 - WL-14V Mini Wood Lathe | Hare & Forbes Machineryhouse (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/W385)

356mm swing over the bed and .75HP variable speed. Ive been wondering "again" if I mounted a 200mm CBN wheel to a MT2 shaft and fitted that to this lathe , backed up by the tail stock pressure, would the motor size run the wheel OK for tool sharpening?

I don't have CBN yet and wonder if they run and work with a light touch or do you find you have to lean on them a little?

This sort of CBN wheel.https://www.timbecon.com.au/sherwood-cbn-grinder-wheels?gclid=CjwKCAjw9aiIBhA1EiwAJ_GTSnv1KlDYsryOVq8gMmP4lQynNs-10o-wVyzW6PyapfZmXrJQHnTjiBoCN-4QAvD_BwE

The advantage may be I could have a number of wheels mounted on MT2 stubs and swap them over when needed and the variable speed is good to . Not just CBN but other narrower options for other uses . If it was powerful enough maybe a couple of grades of wheels could be mounted on one to run on the one MT2 shaft at same time .

Picko

4th August 2021, 09:48 PM

Definitely no need to lean on them, I'm sure it would be fine if you can get it to run true and as you say, use the tailstock to prevent it from backing out.

doragus

4th August 2021, 10:04 PM

I have a WL-14v and have jury-rigged a number of grinding, sanding and polishing attachments (but not CBN wheels). All work fine and the lathe seeems to handle them with ease at varying speeds so I'd guess that CBN wouldn't be a problem. My only concern with your proposal might be if you rig them on an MT2 shaft. That would probably be OK with tail stock support but even then I'm not sure you wouldn't get some shaft slippage. I had that problem with a head stock mounted MT2 Jacobs chuck I have. My solution has been to rig the attachments to fit one of my scroll chucks rather than mounting them in the head stock taper. I have just used turned hard wooden mounts with approprite steel shafts bolted through (you could of course turn steel chuck mounts if you have a metal lathe). Cheap and effective...and not overly difficult to rig so no need tp mount multiple wheels on a single shaft. I'm assuming you will use the CBN wheel for tool sharpening, not heavy duty grinding and, if so, I belive you could use this system with a CBN wheel at slower sharpening speeds and not even need tail stock support.

auscab

4th August 2021, 10:59 PM

That sounds good then thanks Picko and doragus.

I have a metal lathe and could get something like this
MORSE TAPER MT2 SOFT STUB BLANK ARBOR M10 X 1.5 DRAWBAR -MILLING, LATHE TOOLS | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333614313720?hash=item4dacf670f8:g:DyEAAOSwcIxdEeKQ)

Maybe turn its end to fit the grinding wheel, then drill and tap the end to take a bolt to hold wheel on . After that Drill a center in the bolt head for the tail stock live center.

Good to hear you have used the WL-14V for grinding too doragus. Do You fund the speed control handy for grinding?

doragus

5th August 2021, 11:53 AM

I'd be happier using the head stock MT if everything was secured with a drawbar but it seems a bit complicated to me. Give some thought to scroll chuck mounting.
Speed control is exactly the reason I have gone to the trouble of setting up to use the lathe for sharpening. I don't have a slow-speed grinder or wet sharpener and I find the speed of my normal bench grinders are just too aggressive for a lot of the lathe tool sharpening I need.

orraloon

5th August 2021, 02:35 PM

I cant see why it cant be done but that said do you want to have to remove your bowl or whatever every time the gouge needs a touch up. It would drive me nuts.
Regards
John

auscab

5th August 2021, 05:14 PM

I'd be happier using the head stock MT if everything was secured with a drawbar

That's a good idea too ! That may be easy. Some of the MT2 blanks Ive seen come with the tapered end tapped already.

RDGTOOLS 2MT SOFT STUB ARBOUR BLANK END 28 X 30MM WITH DRAWBAR LATHES MILLING | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/373290146808?hash=item56e9d39bf8:g:gLYAAOSwxW9fkXzv&frcectupt=true)

Give some thought to scroll chuck mounting.

Yes I will consider that.

Speed control is exactly the reason I have gone to the trouble of setting up to use the lathe for sharpening. I don't have a slow-speed grinder or wet sharpener and I find the speed of my normal bench grinders are just too aggressive for a lot of the lathe tool sharpening I need.

Same boat as I'm is with my grinders . And this seemed a better solution to getting a grinder that is slow . That's the problem though , their fixed at sort of slow, 1480 I think ? I don't think Ive seen any with speed control . Ive always really liked slow grinding as its very accurate when needed . Ive been using a bench fitted hand cranked one for all turning tools for years . sometimes I use the sandpaper on my linisher too . As well as fast normal Al Oxide.

auscab

5th August 2021, 05:25 PM

I cant see why it cant be done but that said do you want to have to remove your bowl or whatever every time the gouge needs a touch up. It would drive me nuts.
Regards
John

That would drive me nuts too John .
I'm getting this set up next to my two other lathes just for quick more accurate sharpening than I get with my hand cranked jigger . Hand cranked using one hand is ok on gouges but not as good on skew or parting tools. I do use Al oxide and linisher for sharpening as well . Their up the other end of an 18 Meter walk though .

Other lathes are a Wadkin RS 8 and a typical older Woodfast . I don't know if there will ever be a need to turn on a third lathe for really small stuff which is what I do on the Woodfast already. It'll be another option I have though.

doragus

5th August 2021, 06:04 PM

orraloon

5th August 2021, 11:05 PM

That would drive me nuts too John .
I'm getting this set up next to my two other lathes just for quick more accurate sharpening than I get with my hand cranked jigger . Hand cranked using one hand is ok on gouges but not as good on skew or parting tools. I do use Al oxide and linisher for sharpening as well . Their up the other end of an 18 Meter walk though .

Other lathes are a Wadkin RS 8 and a typical older Woodfast . I don't know if there will ever be a need to turn on a third lathe for really small stuff which is what I do on the Woodfast already. It'll be another option I have though.

I can see your point now. I use a home made sanding disc on my lathe to do the bottom of bowls and stuff after they come off the lathe and being able to control the speed is really good.
Regards
John

Gary H

6th August 2021, 08:16 AM

I cant see why it cant be done but that said do you want to have to remove your bowl or whatever every time the gouge needs a touch up. It would drive me nuts.
Regard
John

Couldn't agree more. How long would it take to turn a Coolibah burl:oo:?

Fumbler

6th August 2021, 08:17 AM

BobL

6th August 2021, 09:06 AM

I should have said earlier that I have two lathes and two scroll chucks so no need to remove work when I want to sharpen.
Another tip before you shell out $200+ on a CBN wheel. Have a look at 8" Grit 180/320/600 Diamond Grinding Wheel Discs For Sharpener Chain ChainSaw | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/333606122216?hash=item4dac7972e8:g:Vr0AAOSwGYJeyNlB)
Mount these on a flat wooden disk with a fitting for your scroll chuck and you might find they do the job you want.

Those discs are available from THK on ebay for about half the price of that link above.
https://www.ebay.com.au/str/thkdiamondtools?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

Based in HK, THK is a reputable company that we (SWMBO and I) have been buying from for about a decade.
Back in 2012 the 6" discs were between us $8 and $12 I bought SWMBO a grit set (80 - 1200) for her lapping machine that she uses for her glass jewellery mess making activities. She's only ever used 2 of them so I purloined one for the side of one of my CBN wheels (see E on pic below).
6" is a good size for the side of an 8" grinding as it does not interfere with the sides
The diamond wheel is backed with a 5" diameter 12mm steel disc as I do use the edge to sharpen things and need to be able to get right around the back edge.
499040
I mainly use the diamond wheel for sharpening Tungsten Carbide tips (TIG, MW lathe and masonry bits)

In a pro situation diamond is not supposed to be suitable for grinding ferrous material but probably not an issue in DIY space.

Since that pic was taken have replaced D with F and put a second CBN wheel on F and put a 100 mm diamond cup wheel on the side of that wheel.
499042

To be effective small wheels and discs have to be spun faster which is why those grinders above are on a VFD.

auscab

6th August 2021, 11:35 AM

Why not buy a small 6" wheel and whack it on an Ozito bench grinder, $30 and you can lean all you want.

I could do that . Or I could put the CBN wheels on one of my standard 2850 speed grinders . Or I could continue the resto job that stalled on a 3 phase 2850 grinder and set it up with VFD for speed control .

Looking at the lathe idea though , as long as its powerful enough , it solves one issue I have with grinders .
I tend to set up a grinder and it stays that way . All the playing around with bushes and fitting the wheels of what ever type . I don't like changing them around unless I really have to after that. So Ive got about 5 twin wheel grinders set up already . And I need more . I want a grinding station for the metal lathe.
I want a grinding station for the wood turning lathes . And its about time I tried the CBN everyone is talking about which is better used with speed control . The CBN has got to be good for HSS Metal lathe shaping too yeah !

A set up with speed control and easy interchangeable wheels could be the way and put an end to adding to many more grinders . And it offers some interesting things Id like to try out .

CBN wheels on the wall ready to use .

I use thin wheels for sharpening spindle moulder knives but don't have speed control and that would be a good thing .

One thing Ive always thought would be great is sharpening chisels , specially carving chisels on a leather wheel which has to run backwards . The vfd on this lathe has reverse.

Another good thing is the way a tool rest clamps to the bed of a lathe means making a grinding rest that's easily adjustable for any wheel size is easy .

The worst part about it is having to spend $600 on another toy in one hit .

That bridge has been crossed though and the lathe is on the way by courier .

Sometimes I feel though, you just have to do it and see, to have the understanding that comes from doing it, rather than to much thinking about it until your going around in the same circles. Ive been thinking about this for too long .
H&F had a sale which helped things along with this as well :) .

NeilS

6th August 2021, 12:42 PM

The CBN wheels are quite heavy so would definitely be getting an M2 with threaded end to take a drawbar. Using a live centre in the tailstock may be OK to hold it in place, but a drawbar would be extra insurance.

Also be aware that CBN wheels cannot be 'dressed' so any eccentricity or over tolerance in your machining of the M2 shaft will result in the wheel running out of true and bumping your tools. It's the same issue with bench grinders with out of true shafts (and shoulders) that can be tamed if using aggregate wheels by dressing them, but become a real problem with CBN or diamond wheels.

On diamond for sharpening HSS, I've been regularly using an 8" diamond wheel for at least ten years now (bought that before CBN came available at a reasonable price) and there is no way I will be wearing that one out in my life time. It's a resin matrix wheel, so has a quite deep diamond layer. I'm using CBN wheels as well now, so in another ten years I will be able to report on which type has lasted/performed the best...:U

auscab

7th August 2021, 09:49 PM

The H&F lathe arrived pretty fast, ordered Wednesday arrived Friday, for a cost of $36 delivery with Fast track couriers .
That was great but they didn't it to my door and instead leave it out at the front gate . No phone call to let me know . Anyone could have taken it had I not for some reason looked out the window and seen him . Wife would have seen it 4 hours later if it was still there . I would have had trouble no matter what happened!

Got it to shed and it's good . Plenty of grunt even down on lowest revs .

Ive got to order some CBN wheels next .
Thinking of going with Vicmarc 180 and 360 grit . Maybe get an 80 later as well .

Vicmarc CBN Grinding Wheel (https://www.timberbits.com/vicmarc-cbn-grinding-wheel)

Does anyone know if the Vicmarc CBN wheels are Aluminium or a Steel body ?
I haven't spotted that info anywhere yet. The Vicmarc website or Timberbits .

The Lathe
499102

powderpost

8th August 2021, 09:54 PM

Old Croc

9th August 2021, 09:10 AM

The H&F lathe arrived pretty fast, ordered Wednesday arrived Friday, for a cost of $36 delivery with Fast track couriers .
That was great but they didn't it to my door and instead leave it out at the front gate . No phone call to let me know . Anyone could have taken it had I not for some reason looked out the window and seen him . Wife would have seen it 4 hours later if it was still there . I would have had trouble no matter what happe

Ive got to order some CBN wheels next .
Thinking of going with Vicmarc 180 and 360 grit . Maybe get an 80 later as well .

Two things,
I continually had the same problem with AusPost, Startrack is owned by them, so I changed to click and collect, way safer for me.
I have been following the story of CBN wheels for a while on a US forum and general consensus is not to go coarser than 600 grit. Unless you are continually reshaping tools the coarser grits remove too much metal and woodturning tools are not cheap any more. They have said 600 is slightly slower, but is more controllable.
Others will have a different opinion, but I hate wasting money.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Cgcc

9th August 2021, 10:33 AM

Hi Old Croc

I feel I'm in a position to comment. I purchased a slow-speed grinder with a 180 grit CBN wheel.

Look frankly that's right. The rate of metal removal is astonishing for me. I don't know whether I have yet "run in" the wheel (it is commonly said it settles in a little and crazy at first). I simply cannot imagine even if it does ever settle down ever finding that grinding time is an issue. At present even when re-profiling some "beater" chisels to fix them up, I'm talking no more than one second touching the wheel at a time. I would really prefer a higher grit wheel as you really have to be quick on and off.

But on the other hand, I use it as a wheel solely for re-profiling or restoring damage. I use a Tormek SG wheel for re-sharpening turning tools, using the recommended method of putting a sharpie (texta) mark over the bevel and spinning the stone wheel by hand to find where it hits the exact center, so that you're removing the absolute minimum metal. Even on a big roughing rouge this doesn't take long.

I know the fashion seems to be to get your Tormek and use any wheel other than the stone wheel but really, the vanilla use which they recommend of just using it in this way for your re-sharpening is ideal. It comes with all the benefits (no noise, no dust, safe and fairly foolproof). I did not realise that is the recommendation for re-sharpening and they do not recommend setting it all with the setting guides etc until I watched the videos. Which was a relief because despite their precision it can be a chore.

For this reason although I would prefer a higher grit CBN wheel now, I don't see a CBN wheel as a sharpening wheel anyway. If you want to preserve the life of turning tools it is a boring suggestion but I think the vanilla Tormek setup is ideal.

I've noticed at my local woodturner's group the preference seems to be to use a higher grit diamond wheel for all resharpening. There are CBN wheels there but never seen them used for re-sharpening, I assume they're only used for re-profiling or dealing with damage.

NeilS

9th August 2021, 10:58 AM

I have been following the story of CBN wheels for a while on a US forum and general consensus is not to go coarser than 600 grit. Unless you are continually reshaping tools the coarser grits remove too much metal and woodturning tools are not cheap any more. They have said 600 is slightly slower, but is more controllable.
Others will have a different opinion, but I hate wasting money.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Crocy, I haven't gone as fine as a #600 CBN, but did add a #360 to my #180 a little while ago now. I reported on the difference I found between the two in the following thread.

#180 or #360 CBN grinding wheel (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/180-360-cbn-grinding-wheel-230695)

Now that the #360 has worn in, I'm not finding it too aggressive for my purposes. At this stage I'm not convinced I need a #600, even if I thought I could justify the additional cost.

auscab

9th August 2021, 11:25 AM

I would think about taking the cam lock out of the tail stock and putting it in from the back. That handle sticking up like that could be a right PIA. It could get in the way of access to the switch.

Jim

It is a bit in the way when down that end Jim . Ill have to have a look in there . See if it's easy to change .

auscab

9th August 2021, 11:36 AM

Two things,
I continually had the same problem with AusPost, Startrack is owned by them, so I changed to click and collect, way safer for me.
I have been following the story of CBN wheels for a while on a US forum and general consensus is not to go coarser than 600 grit.

I did a bit of complaining to them, Startrack, and I told H&F about it as well . Everyone was all smoochy and nice about it from the office end of the business's . Me reads "Im Keeping the customer happy boss " Startrack said they would let the drivers know about it . Wait and see on that one .

Ive got two CBN wheels coming next , by courier as well . I gave specific instructions at Timberbits check out to at least leave package inside my property if dropping at house is not possible . Going to have to make a sign that tells them to do that and leave at gate.

I ordered 180 and 360 grit CBN Vicmarc wheels . That big flat side looks handy . I haven't seen finer than 360 grit in AU.
Is that something that needs to be ordered from the US ?

NeilS

9th August 2021, 12:13 PM

I haven't seen finer than 360 grit in AU.
Is that something that needs to be ordered from the US ?

Knife Grinders (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11CBN.htm) has them here in Oz up to #1000, but their arbors are 12.04mm +/- 0.01 to fit the low rpm Torments.

Old Croc

9th August 2021, 09:18 PM

Knife Grinders (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11CBN.htm) has them here in Oz up to #1000, but their arbors are 12.04mm +/- 0.01 to fit the low rpm Torments.
I did ask a question in the "Sharpening" section about the wheels from Knife Grinders, but no one has replied. I am nearly at the point of having to replace the SG wheel on my Tormek and I was considering the one from Knife Grinders.
Rgds,
Crocy.

riverbuilder

10th August 2021, 12:26 PM

I could do that . Or I could put the CBN wheels on one of my standard 2850 speed grinders . Or I could continue the resto job that stalled on a 3 phase 2850 grinder and set it up with VFD for speed control .

Looking at the lathe idea though , as long as its powerful enough , it solves one issue I have with grinders .
I tend to set up a grinder and it stays that way . All the playing around with bushes and fitting the wheels of what ever type . I don't like changing them around unless I really have to after that. So Ive got about 5 twin wheel grinders set up already . And I need more . I want a grinding station for the metal lathe.
I want a grinding station for the wood turning lathes . And its about time I tried the CBN everyone is talking about which is better used with speed control . The CBN has got to be good for HSS Metal lathe shaping too yeah !

A set up with speed control and easy interchangeable wheels could be the way and put an end to adding to many more grinders . And it offers some interesting things Id like to try out .

CBN wheels on the wall ready to use .

I use thin wheels for sharpening spindle moulder knives but don't have speed control and that would be a good thing .

One thing Ive always thought would be great is sharpening chisels , specially carving chisels on a leather wheel which has to run backwards . The vfd on this lathe has reverse.

Another good thing is the way a tool rest clamps to the bed of a lathe means making a grinding rest that's easily adjustable for any wheel size is easy .

The worst part about it is having to spend $600 on another toy in one hit .

That bridge has been crossed though and the lathe is on the way by courier .

Sometimes I feel though, you just have to do it and see, to have the understanding that comes from doing it, rather than to much thinking about it until your going around in the same circles. Ive been thinking about this for too long .
H&F had a sale which helped things along with this as well :) .

”I have about 5 twin wheel grinders already “
I want………
I want……….

are you sure we might not be twin brothers auscab? :U

auscab

28th August 2021, 11:38 PM

I got to try out sharpening wood turning chisels on the H&F Mini Lathe with the CBN wheels today . I had some wood turning to do . Very nice !
A lot better than what I was grinding my turning chisels with before.

Ive also been enjoying doing bench chisels, plane blades as well as HSS metal lathe bits for the last week . From 450 rpm to 1450 rpm and some drill bits , small ones need using reverse as these wheels grab at some things not supported on a rest .
Apart from finding out about the the grabs Its going great .

I ended up making draw bars for the MT2 blank to fit my Hercus metal lathe and the H&F Mini .
Ive only machined one blank and one Vicmarc Bush and have been changing the wheels by unscrewing the 10mm screw and washer that holds the wheel on rather than having a MT2 shaft for each wheel and taking it off the draw bar .

I chopped up a Carbatec tool rest and fitted it to the end of a 25mm pipe that fits the Mini lathe tool rest holder . The ease of shifting and changing tool rest position for what ever I need is very good .

I ended up getting 80 , 180 and 360 grit wheels.

Thanks for all the above advice and ideas on using the Mini lathe like this . Its worked out well .

Ive got further plans for it so if I post them I'll do it in the Sharpening section .

Rob

NeilS

29th August 2021, 10:09 AM

Apart from finding out about the grabs Its going great .

They get less grabby with use.

I ended up making draw bars for the MT2 blank to fit my Hercus metal lathe and the H&F Mini .
Ive only machined one blank and one Vicmarc Bush and have been changing the wheels by unscrewing the 10mm screw and washer that holds the wheel on rather than having a MT2 shaft for each wheel and taking it off the draw bar .

That would have been well beyond my (non existing) machining skills, Rob. I would have ended up with runout or wobble or both!