HARD AND HEAVY Hardwood - WHAT IS IT???

[Fallen Woodwork]

This log was found burnt down and exposed to the elements on a mates block for over 9 years. The log is about 180mm in diameter and was about 5" long before being cut up. Likely that the outer layers have been burnt or weathered back.

This is not all the wood from the log but a good representation. I've had it in the shed for the past 6 months and just recently went through a marathon effort to turn it.

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/9f79ba02b7a5615ec71064b3432a8649.jpg

Location: WA/NT region. The soil is rather loamy and close to being black soil. The are many young paperbark trees, some bauhinia, some white gum and iron wood trees on the block. All these trees are young - nothing much more than 30-40 years - it would appear that fires have taken out the mature trees.
The inner rings have suffered some delamination which I filled with epoxy in order to stabilise and turn. The delaminations were mostly less than 1mm - a couple up to 1.5mm

Density:
The wood has been drying over the entire dry season... has had many cycles of wet/dry
This is a 100mm cube - assuming scaling up to 1000mm cube this makes for 1200kg/m3
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/19eaafbc0bd659c3ae4153f773651fad.jpg


Grain: This wood can be brought to a good lustre without any polishes or products. The below going through 80-2000 grit only
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/1e24c0d3301abe7b2c4847c54b3d1043.jpg
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/d737d5b431525ba6b954d229ff1d524b.jpg
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/35182f6a214538e136475f7dc58bf5e7.jpg
Some golden line streaks can be seen when cut at some angles
There might be some oils in this wood helping the lustre when fine sanding?

The below is a side by side sample of grain comparing to ironwood:

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/63c9435a0187e76383218f22d1404758.jpg
The grain structure and colour is totally different to ironwood


Hardness: I cant test for hardness but when turning a mortar bowl I didnt think I would be able to finish what I started.
Sounds silly but I tried using an arbortech mini carver to see if the carbide would bite in as I turned slowly - it just bounced off barely making a scratch
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/13/685d019f507d00bb6c5d022a7e2bc427.jpg
I lost count how many times I sharpened a good quality gouge but it took 10mm out of my 40-40 completing this + many times sharpening a negative rack carbide finisher.

There were a couple of natural resin pockets that would not fill with epoxy - it wouldn't stick so I had to drill out those small pockets to fill
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/13/205adeb37b9ea79347095f87caa208c8.jpg
The lustre on the base is just the wood - no finishing products were used


I showed an old builder from this region who said it looks like Kwilla - but that is only supposed to grow in FNQ?
In my unexperienced opinion it is as beautiful as it is hard to work with. I would love to identify, find a living tree then harvest some seeds to give to my mate to grow.

So - what is this timber? Hoping anyone can help solve this mystery which has my mate and I stumped so far

[woodhog]

The tool I purchased has a carbide cutter for turning really hard woods.
I'm not sure and just guessing. It might be blood wood or iron wood.
Not sure where the wood supply stores here in the USA get their exotic hardwood lumber.

[Bushmiller]

Fallen Woodwork

Very difficult to say and I am not familiar with your region. However, as you have said Ironwood grows in that area I would go with that until somebody comes up with a more precise suggestion. There is a Forum member who goes by the name of "Ironwood," for a very good reason, so you could PM him if he does not see this thread and ask his opinion.

Your bowl looks good.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

I checked the distribution of Erythrophleum chlorostachys & that species certainly occurs in the locality you defined, so I assume that's the "ironwood" you mean? (there several other unrelated species around the wide brown land locally known as "ironwood"). With the proviso that I've had pieces from no more than half a dozen different trees through my hands, I'd reckon your mystery wood fits within the range of what I've seen. Other bits looked more like your known sample piece. Apart from not having a clue as to what else to suggest, I guess what sways me toward ironwood (commonly called "Cooktown" ironwood in Qld) is getting that nice lustre from fine sanding, no eucalypts I've ever struck will polish in the raw like that. Some bits of E. chlorostachys I've had were quite fine-grained like your bit & finished with a similar lustre off 400 grit & a rub-over with 0000 steel wool. This little plane is still in the raw and I reckon the grain & appearance are very close to your bowl wood: 499719

But as Bushmiller says, when you are unfamiliar with a locality & far from home, you don't bet the house on an opinion....
:U
Cheers,

[Mobyturns]

Your density calcs give it away without seeing the images. Look up "cooktown ironwood" - Erythrophleum chlorostachys - which is quite common across the Top End. I have been turning some pens from a small burl that came from near Cooktown.

Ironwood report PDF (agriculture.gov.au) (https://www.agriculture.gov.au/sites/default/files/sitecollectiondocuments/forestry/publications/Ironwood_in_NT.pdf) jump to page 108 for some details on regrowth copicing and its apparent "communal" growth.

[Mobyturns]

As a side comment it will probably become another timber we Aussies will not have access to nor afford if plans to commercialize it and others as high end "craft timbers" eventuate.

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks for all the replies gents.
Yes, we have Cooktown Ironwoods here. I appreciate that many other species a colloquially called iron wood trees. There are Iron bark trees here too but I'm getting a little off track. I had all but totally excluded iron wood as a possibility and erred whether I should have mentioned ironwood so as not to introduce bias.

Heres why it could be Erythrophleum Chlorostachys

Its around 1200kg/m3 As Moby indicates this is in the right ball park
As Ian says - a good luster can be created from fine sanding
There are other Iron wood trees on the block


Heres why I think it could be something else:

It is a totally different colour to many large samples I have (noting it comes from different area and different soil conditions)
The grain structure from the 6th picture above side by side comparison is totally different (note the timber on the right is from a much older tree and had been cut within 12 months of it dying. It is still moist)
It just turns differently to other iron wood I have worked on (granted I am green/unexperienced and havnt turned a lot)
All other pieces of ironwood I have found have suffered termite damage in the inner heartwood/pith (I only take fallen or dead wood)

This is a large branch from a tree that died last year. Much lighter in colour and severely damaged from white ants

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/20/749b803cde910997e39678d0beeb5748.jpg

Some questions which might help explain why a numpty might think these are two different species:
Would a burnt stump protect the pith from termite damage? I can imagine termites turning noses up at charcoal.
Does colour variation commonly occur to this degree?
Does age and moisture content of the wood change its colour? - I think I read somewhere that ironwood may darken when cut
Perhaps the aged timber looks and turns differently from all the seasonal cycling

Thanks again for all your time, help, experience and kind words :U

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Woodhog. I think I need to buy several more carbide cutters/hollowers and finishers

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Paul.
I will get in touch with that member. Looking at the replies I have received which concur with your opinion I am convinced it is Ironwood.
Perhaps a better way for me to look at it is to try to prove its not

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Ian - yes that plane does look very similar.
Great looking block of wood - thanks for the pic

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Moby.
I had found that pdf just a couple weeks ago when trying to identify this log.
My trouble was probably the limited samples of ironwood I had before to go on - hadnt seen such a great looking timber before. Especially a piece with this providence.
Yes - sadly these trees are getting fewer in number. The regularity and intensity of the fires do not allow the saplings to reach maturity

[Mobyturns]

Thanks Moby.
I had found that pdf just a couple weeks ago when trying to identify this log.
My trouble was probably the limited samples of ironwood I had before to go on - hadnt seen such a great looking timber before. Especially a piece with this providence.
Yes - sadly these trees are getting fewer in number. The regularity and intensity of the fires do not allow the saplings to reach maturity

Sadly the intensity and frequency of fires and pressure from grazing is having detrimental impacts upon recruitment of many native species. I have seen quite a bit of sawn CKI and cut survey reference shields in a few and have found the grain & coloration to be very similar to your samples above. That pdf has species lists of tree species in those typical woodland communities so it will allow you to work through potential candidates.

As for using termite damage as an indicator, I personally haven't seen any termite damage to any CKI, and doubt that your termite affected pieces are CKI. There is other research papers about examining lyctine damage to top end timbers which list several timbers being assessed for commercial harvest, Darwin Stringybark, etc. They also have relatively high densities but not typically comparable to CKI. John Goyne knows all about milling Darwin Stringybark.

Darwin Stringybark - "Density can range between 990 to 1200 kgm3 with the timber sourced from North Queensland having the highest average density with an average of 1170kgm3. "

Powerderpost & I joke that you can always tell if its CKI, 'cause the termites all have dentures. :D Though Darwin Stringybark is also noted for its termite resistance.

"It is renowned as a source of timber that can withstand termite attack, an important characteristic in the Top End of Australia where termites can ravage timber structures."

[wood spirit]

Probably something else but reminds me of something that was called dead finish. very similar look and characteristics:?

[IanW]

Probably something else but reminds me of something that was called dead finish. very similar look and characteristics:?

"Dead finish" is another of those common names applied to at least 4 quite different species that I know of. One, Archidendropsis basaltica is a very hard dry-country wood, up there for density. Like all woods, its appearance is sufficiently variable that some bits could look like the subject wood. I've had about 4 different lots & no two were the same, one you would swear is a different species, but it was reliably identified & came from the right spot (it was gorgeous stuff too, but one of the most difficult bits of wood I've ever worked with!):
499779 499780 499781

I gave it brief consideration but dropped the idea when I looked up its distribution, it appears to be entirely within Qld, so unless someone carried a pocketful of seeds a long, long way, I think that one can be safely ruled out.

Identifying a piece of wood accurately from a picture (or even in the hand) can sometimes be next to impossible. The reason the same common name is applied to so many unrelated woods tells you one good reason why! If the wood has a characteristic odour when sawn, or some other unique property, it can be easy to say with confidence what you've got, but none of the Erythrophleum I've worked with had anything I'd call a characteristic odour, unless I've forgotten (not impossible :C ). It is, however, a fairly potent sensitiser, so I'll say to the OP, if your eyes water & you start sneezing violently next time you have a crack at it, that'll be a good indication you're on the right track..... :;
Cheers,

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks again Moby.
I totally agree about the fires and pastoral impacts. Old practices and mindsets that may (or may not) have been fine 30 years ago are creating a monoculture of plant and animal life.

The tree I am am comparing to with the termite damage certainly looks like ironwood.
I took some photos of it at the beginning of the year that should help determine if this is ironwood
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/e775bde6c6b4fd729d56de239b1e34a2.jpg
This was in January when the bark had nearly completely fallen off.
The back of the bark had very sharp horns

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/cfbb875741b40dc0a1f41451d571eb92.jpg
The sapling in front has sprouted no more than 0.5m away from the trunk. Likely lignotuber?

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/e68bef9da1a11c67ffbf2b50e8492e01.jpg
From a distance

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/36f7df2402f57488d59f07f423c775be.jpg

Pics from here on have been taken today - it has become significantly grey
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/6572f99c6e48d8e652b25b161dcdfc65.jpg

Deep eliptical sockets left from the barks sharp horn anchors

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/ca1061e93e98f81cbc2e1c918101f8ca.jpg
Possible ligno tuber today

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/e4c51ed47497e97034b085d7c711efbf.jpg
A little difficult to see but there is a small shoot of green growth from the base of the trunk just over half way up on the right. This appeared about 3 months ago. There is a dead lignotuber on the right also

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/c7a6215fd48b9128e463f451ce377227.jpg
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/edaf780839640481bf118f29a3444c1b.jpg
Close of of new shoot leaves
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/6d6a611dd9297b54fae410947935d980.jpg


https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/f5ac839b2369121cdde053860ed86bae.jpg
Stump - Excuse the horrible looking cuts - done with a 350mm bar electric chainsaw :oo:
Trunk is 500mm+

This tree started suffering after a crown fire went through a few years ago. We have never had a crown fore before. Ground fuel is always the cause of fires in this region so normally trees of this size get a bit burnt at the base but the canopy is fine.
Not so with a devastating fire with fierce winds that saw trees burning from the top down. Many trees lost all canopy but even with trunks totally intact they died. This was a truly fierce fire that had not been seen in this region before.
Is it possible that the stress from the fire left it susceptible to insect attack?

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Ian. That is some beautiful timber and some amazing craftmenship :)
You are right - identifying timber from pics is very difficult but I am grateful for everyones input

Addit: I forgot to mention that I havnt noticed any eye or breathing sensitivity. Lots of things up here to make anyone sneeze this time of year. I have been warned about iron wood and understand the fine particlate issues. Is it true it can kill cattle if the leaves are ingested? I've also heard that ironwood smoke can make people sick. I keep a large evaporative fan at an angle to my back blowing dust out the shed and wear a good dust mask when Im working on ironwood. I have however noticed that I feel ever so slightly sick and head achey the next day but not enough to stop me doing anything. Possibly my good mask isnt great :no:

[IanW]

...... Is it true it can kill cattle if the leaves are ingested? I've also heard that ironwood smoke can make people sick.....

Indeed the leaves are highly toxic to cattle & other livestock. In a former life I was a veterinary pathologist, & ended up teaching toxicology to veterinary students, so I'm pretty familiar with Erythrophleum chlorostachys as a veterinary problem. I can't comment on how hazardous it is to humans, but the fact that all parts of the plant are toxic to livestock (& it only takes a few leaves to kill a sheep, according to reasonably reliable sources), should be enough to make us wary. The toxin itself isn't well characterised, but I suspect that breathing in or ingesting the dust from turning & sanding would not do you a lot of good. I've only had occasional & brief exposures & so far & have not had any problems either, but if I were to start working with the stuff in earnest I would up my game on dust control.

A note to end on - HNT Gordon used to use a lot of Cooktown ironwood for his plane bodies when he started out, but doesn't seem to have used it these last 10 years or more. I wonder if he ran into some health problems, or was warned about the risks, or just decided Gidgee was a better choice?

Cheers,
Ian

[Ironwood]

My money is on Cooktown Ironwood.
I take it from your location of “top end” that you’re in the NT ?
I milled quite a lot of Cooktown Ironwood in FNQ in the ‘90s, I had a permit to mill fallen timber on a minesite, I mainly targeted the CI.
I have many examples from logs from within a 20 km radius, the colours range from orange, through red, to a chocolatey purple, and one log that was so dark it was almost black except for the characteristic cream coloured strands that run through it.
The end grain in the block on the scales looks very much like CI.

[Ironwood]

Here is a pic of the endgrain of the piece that I used for the front infill on the plane that I made for the "Plane Challenge"
499817

And a pic of the face grain.
499818



A note to end on - HNT Gordon used to use a lot of Cooktown ironwood for his plane bodies when he started out, but doesn't seem to have used it these last 10 years or more. I wonder if he ran into some health problems, or was warned about the risks, or just decided Gidgee was a better choice?

Cheers,
Ian

I think Terry stopped using the Cooktown Ironwood because of supply issues.

[Ironwood]

Grain: This wood can be brought to a good lustre without any polishes or products. The below going through 80-2000 grit only
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/19/1e24c0d3301abe7b2c4847c54b3d1043.jpg

I have found that you can burnish CI to a high gloss without using any finish.
Turn a piece to a cylinder on the lathe, sand it to 600 grit, then use a piece of shiny metal, such as the flat on your skew chisel, to burnish the timber while its spinning on the lathe.

[Fallen Woodwork]

My money is on Cooktown Ironwood.
I take it from your location of “top end” that you’re in the NT ?
I milled quite a lot of Cooktown Ironwood in FNQ in the ‘90s, I had a permit to mill fallen timber on a minesite, I mainly targeted the CI.
I have many examples from logs from within a 20 km radius, the colours range from orange, through red, to a chocolatey purple, and one log that was so dark it was almost black except for the characteristic cream coloured strands that run through it.
The end grain in the block on the scales looks very much like CI.

Thanks for the posts Brad. Much appreciated.
Im right on the WA/NT border. Fascinating to hear about the range of colours - 'chocolatey purple' wow!
Did you ever come across ironwood that had suffered termite damage?
The stump below had a 2" hollow right down the entire trunck - I suspect it was sick after an extraordinarily hot fire came through a few years back.
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/e4c51ed47497e97034b085d7c711efbf.jpg
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/6d6a611dd9297b54fae410947935d980.jpg

[Fallen Woodwork]

I was going through my phone images and found these pics of my mate cutting up that 9 year+ log on his block.
Its longer than I remember - Ive been staring at smaller pieces for the past 6 months
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/fc8b182c7525d8ee6c831cecfbd5f164.jpg

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/21/4aa65a7e0e9099eba01a1fb37db6b527.jpg

There is sandpaper fig, neem tree , bauhinia and something else in this cluster

[Ironwood]

Did you ever come across ironwood that had suffered termite damage?

The stump below had a 2" hollow right down the entire trunck - I suspect it was sick after an extraordinarily hot fire came through a few years back.


Yeah, quite a few trees that I saw had termites in them. I think they found it hard going, because they never went too far in.

Where I was, it was rare to find a good sized tree without a pipe up the middle of the trunk, I did find a few though. The trees growing in the poorer soil, seemed to be the ones that had the pipes generally. Some were so bad that they were a waste of time milling them. Often the pipes had some termite nest in them too.

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks for sharing your experience Brad. Fascinating what a difference in soil quality can make. There was a big difference in soils with the two examples I have posted. One was low lying loamy soil and the other (although not evident in the pics) was elevated and on a rocky base.
Thanks for your pictures posted - they look more or less identical to the sample from my mates block.
I will make a block from the termite log and post a pic

[Mobyturns]

Thanks for sharing your experience Brad. Fascinating what a difference in soil quality can make. There was a big difference in soils with the two examples I have posted. One was low lying loamy soil and the other (although not evident in the pics) was elevated and on a rocky base.
Thanks for your pictures posted - they look more or less identical to the sample from my mates block.
I will make a block from the termite log and post a pic

All the CKI wood that I have handled has come from the FNQ coastal forests.

[Bushmiller]

Yeah, quite a few trees that I saw had termites in them. I think they found it hard going, because they never went too far in.

Where I was, it was rare to find a good sized tree without a pipe up the middle of the trunk, I did find a few though. The trees growing in the poorer soil, seemed to be the ones that had the pipes generally. Some were so bad that they were a waste of time milling them. Often the pipes had some termite nest in them too.

Many of the so-called resistant timbers have pipes in the mature trees. This is the heart, which in a hardwood tree is no good anyway. My understanding is that the host of insects, birds and other animals that use the pipe in fact contribute nutrient to the tree and in fact are an important part of the tree's growth.

The best Ironbark tree I ever milled had a pipe in the centre and we recovered twenty seven 8" x 2" boards from it. A truly remarkable log. Cooktown Ironwood, which has similar density to the likes of Ironbark, is also rated in the highest strength and durability classes.

Regards
Paul

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Moby. I wonder if the coastal forests there have better soils than here. I dont recall seeing it last time I went further north but I will keep an eye out to see if it grows around the coast here. Wont find much that is considered forest here but plenty of savannah.

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thats fascinating thanks Paul. I can well believe that animal life has a symbiotic relationship with trees. So pipes are not such a bad thing... thats great to know
That must have been some tree to produce those boards!
Quick question that anyone is welcome to answer - is the heartwood no good because it is weak and prone to splitting/delaminating?

[Fallen Woodwork]

I had a session with the bandsaw today - cut up a 30kg branch into smaller manageable pieces
Discarded 1/3 of this chunck. The pipe extended further into the centre on the other side
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/22/d6ccb3e8598c4f91c9a3e87facfa70d4.jpg

https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/22/9b70ae0a33de6f114ef59c16a1657577.jpg

Plenty of these guys in the cambium layer:
Big buggers - around 8-9mm in diameter when crawling out of the holes
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/22/40ec6c2263b07e692895bd577575ff3b.jpg

Made another 100mm block - roughly sanded on the disc sander
This timber probably has a bit more to dry out
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/22/4f67daf2073857c0ea23c7f8042c7d82.jpg

Quickly polished up this side down to 400 grit then some 000 steel wool and abrasive paste
https://imghostr.net/images/2021/08/22/259f68eaac1e9652082db13002e3bcef.jpg

[Ironwood]

I have never seen grubs in CI, that’s a first for me.

[Bushmiller]

Thats fascinating thanks Paul. I can well believe that animal life has a symbiotic relationship with trees. So pipes are not such a bad thing... thats great to know
That must have been some tree to produce those boards!
Quick question that anyone is welcome to answer - is the heartwood no good because it is weak and prone to splitting/delaminating?

FW

The symbiotic relationship sums it up very well: Better than my explanation. If I can find a pic of that log I will post it here. It is not the biggest log I ever milled but it was the largest diameter at the time. I since milled up a larger diameter Grey Gum.

The heart in a hardwood log, even if it is still present, will break up in quite a short period of time. It is usually defective in terms of woodworking anyway, but this is the complete opposite of softwoods where the heart is used successfully. It does mean that the recovery (useable timber) from a hardwood log is less than that from an equivalent sized softwood log. Also be aware that the terms hard and soft are slightly misleading and really we should talk of pored and non pored woods (but nobody does). Some "hardwoods" are soft and some "softwoods" are hard. Balsa is the commonly quoted example of this as technically it is a pored wood thus making it a "hardwood." :)

Regards
Paul

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks Paul. Great information there.
Thats interesting about pored and and non pored woods. I will have to look up some micro images of these two types of timber.

A few pics of those logs would be awesome.

[Bushmiller]

Well you asked for pix: This was a little while ago now. I was younger :wink:

This log was close to the maximum that would fit beneath the saw.


500023

The rule of thumb is to cut down one third and then rotate the log 90°. This is after the first rotation.


500024
This series of pix shows another section from the same tree, which had been standing dead in the paddock for ten years. It was still green in the centre. The black dot is part of the heart (it extended wider than the termite nest) which is in fact termite residue. The top pic has the swing blade in the horizontal position, the middle pic has the blade in the vertical position and the last pic shows the 8 x 2 boards we were cutting for the customers stockyard specifically to round up his bulls. He was there lifting the freshly cut boards from the mill, which was a great help. He was a good bloke and I enjoyed working for and with him.

500025

Sorry about the large white gaps. These are real photos I had to scan and the scan included the white space around a 6" x 4".

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

On the subject of pored and non-pored timber, a man by the name of Morris Lake has produced two books in conjunction with the CSIRO: "Australian Forest Woods" and "Australian Rainforest Woods." Both are nicely produced publications and at the back of both books are a number of end grain pix at x15 magnification and x90 magnification.

I have taken two examples to show how the pored and non-pored timbers look under the microscope or a good jeweller's loupe.

Pored (Casuarina
)500026

And non-pored (Cypress pine)

500027

The left hand pics are at x15 and the right hand at x90.

No affiliation with the author or the CSIRO, but very happy to recommend the books (and to accept any kickbacks they care to offer :) )

This is also a description from the ABC's Dr. Karl.

The hard word on hardwood › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science (ABC Science) (https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/10/26/1772559.htm)

Regards
Paul

[Fallen Woodwork]

Thanks for the great photos and no need to apologise at all.
At first I thought it was Slash from Guns N Roses at the mill until I realised what I thought was hair was actually a hat neck flap hahaha

Wow! that is some log there. And to think it has been standing dead for all that time. I dont think dead trees would last more than a few seasons here.
What a great mill - horizontal + vertical cuts + capacity
Is the rule of 1/3 for milling boards only? I'm waiting for a miller to visit and unsure of I want to try to make a table or turn large bowls


Thanks too for the pored vs non-pored end grain pics and links. That is very useful for a visual learner. I am a fan of Dr Karls science explanations that often help paint a picture in my mind.

[IanW]

....No affiliation with the author or the CSIRO, but very happy to recommend the books (and to accept any kickbacks they care to offer :) )...

Well, Paul, I'll do my "grumpy old man" impersonation & be a dissenting voice. While I say hats-off to Morris Lake for the effort he must have put in, the book was a bit of a disappointment to me. He could have done with a good photo editor (and a good text editor, the text is full of grammatical errors and some technical errors such as describing fruits as "drupe-shaped". A drupe is a particular type of fruit with a hard-coated seed with a fleshy covering & they come in many shapes!). My main gripe is that the vast majority of the pictures which are supposed to help you identify the trees are next to useless, too small, too blurry and do not clearly show the features you need to see. The pictures of the trees themselves are also of very limited value - in many cases you can't be sure which of the trees in the pic is actually the one being described! The text on the woods' working properties in many cases appear to be almost word-for word out of Bootle, so if you already have that book, you don't gain much. Finally, the end-grain pics in the back are not much use to your average reader. They would be a good resource for someone who is in the business of accurate wood id & has access to gear that can make the necessary fine slices for higher mag perusal, but for your average Joe, even if they had the sections & a good microscope to study them with they would struggle to differentiate much - they are Greek to me, & I spent a working lifetime looking at (animal) tissues with microscopes. I reckon it would take me quite a while & some good coaching to be even partially confident at identifying much. It would make far more sense to me to print that part as an atlast for specialist users, and use the space for some decent-sized & maybe labelled pics for the rest of us punters.

As a contrast, compare Lake's book with the earlier multi-authored "Forest Trees of Australia" published in the early 80s. It has few colour pics, but the B&W pics of trees & parts & the good line-drawings of seedlings & other significant features are mostly very clear & actually helpful...

As I said, just one opinion from a GOM...
:roll:
Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

Hmmmm. Ian I have all those books you mentioned. Perhaps I am reading them in conjunction with each other. Each of these books in isolation has deficiencies. The lack of colour in "Forest Trees of Australia, the complete absence of pix in Bootle's book" and so it goes on. It also depends on what you want to derive from the books. The final problem, to my mind, is inescapable and one that we have frequently mentioned. namely that timber even within it's own species and type is so very variable.

Just this last weekend I went out to a timbered region in our area and found a spectacular Kurrajong tree in terms of form (most have been hacked to pieces to feed cattle in drought times), but this had a completely different leaf form from those with which I am familiar.

Nothing is set in concrete in the world of trees plus hybrids are becoming increasingly common.

Regards
Paul

[Pittwater Pete]

Came across this whilst reading.
Might help?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/95d2365c3b8441bd88a8d64969f8c550.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/756c17a891f8fd95453b7f99114a9ef6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/c5c0991b5def28b7009aade4b9a32489.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/be60ea76f4a9faa74cfb6ea06862bb96.jpg

[Bushmiller]

Thanks for that extract Pete

I wonder if Brad (Forum member "Ironwood") knew about this. Probably not or he might have chosen a Forum name of "Camel Poison" instead.

:wink:

Interesting that it was also at one time called Leguminous Ironbark.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

We've been cutting up some Red Ironbark at the tree loppers yard.

This was one log.
It didn't seem all that much harder compared to what else we've been cutting, eg Tuart and Spotted Gum, but it was still quite green.
I also seem to have found the sweet spot with band saw blade sharpening and it as a fresh blade I was using.
506293

I've also milled Red Ironbark using a Chainsaw mill.
This log was the first RI I milled that turned out to be harder than the others.
I've always though if it was the first log I tried to mill with a CSM I would have given up.
506294

[Pittwater Pete]

Here’s what we do with Ironbark (Grey).

Regards

Pete.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/b8cade77db4233be4c8d803f2889bf7d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/56d6e74729f6f9e78a2f6684da1383f0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/c437b61ae6734081da5e8a8d3edc1cb7.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/4e41f8845af99774c56aa3e1fb303521.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220116/c73913878d51d9d7061ea0fb02816830.jpg

[Bushmiller]

Pete

I'm speechless. Well, not quite or I wouldn't be replying. That is fabulous. I like that it is incorporated with light walls or else the whole effect would have been overpowering. I once made some external doors (framed, ledged and braced) from Ironbark. Even thirty years ago I couldn't lift them!

Regards
Paul

[Pittwater Pete]

It sure is heavy. That benchtop was on the first floor of the house and needed to be craned in in three pieces. Then manhandled into position joined and finished. It was a bit of a mission.
I didn’t enjoy the doors either. There were 13 of them. Bloody exhausting. Hard on the body and tooling too, especially the chain Mortiser.

Pete.

[dai sensei]

Must have missed this thread. Looks definitely like Ironwood to me, same species as Cooktown Ironwood, except this is usually called NT Ironwood :D

I have a fair bit from my last trip to the NT, all with hollow centres from termites, the termites up there will eat through anything, but are a different ferocious species with obviously better teeth.

Just to get you drooling, the same species also grows around Winton Qld, but known there as Red Ebony. You might be able to appreciate why from the following photos of a freshly cut very old dead and dry burl I'm currently working on :cool:

506352 506353

Unfortunately the red does not last, within a few days it dulls, then turns a dark brown and ultimately an almost black colour :cry4:

506354 506355

[verawood]

So many great photo's of the stuff we love.
Thank you to all who posted.