Help with table saw

[garfield]

Hi All,

After some advice please on a table saw. I have been woodworking off and on since I joined this forum way back in 2006. Back then I pretty much just started out with a jigsaw and a circular saw and was making small projects that came in my head on the day. I upgraded from that to a home table saw which was an old kitchen bench and my 185mm skill saw underneath. Then I moved onto the Triton gear. I purchased a second hand Triton MK3 which I had for a while, then moved onto a Triton 2000. I then bought and have had since and still do a Makita worksite saw as recommended by my father-in-law (an avid woodworker) that I kept as standard/bought from the shop but looking for more I built into a table saw/table saw work bench, and it has served me well for pretty small projects that only required max 300 - 400mm cuts. My family and I moved from Sydney to Port Stephens 7 years ago and in that time I took up relaxing and fishing, but recently I started to get back into the shed and have started making a few little things again. I had forgotten how much I love working with wood and how much I still have to learn about it. In the last few months I have knocked up a couple of study desks for the kids and a few small items for around the house and for caravan we have bought recently.

I have taken on the task of building from scratch new kitchen cabinets for the wife's laundry and if all goes well I want to have a red hot crack at doing the cabinets for a new kitchen. The time has come to now buy a new table saw capable of doing it all. The Makita in the home made cabinet just isn't going to cut it so I am looking for some advice on a table saw. Once completed I don't think I will be doing much cabinet work but would like to have the option of a machine capable of doing so when called upon to do so.

I am pretty out of touch now days on what is and isn't a good machine. Back when I was really non stop into my woodworking I had a real good idea of what would be a great machine and what would suit me to a tea, but up until now I have haven't had the need or the thought of it so over the last few weeks while looking to upgrade I have been looking a bit confused and unsure.

I am not sure If I should go a hybrid table saw, a cabinet saw or small panel saw. One that has really caught my eye at the moment is the ST-254PT table saw with sliding table package deal which is on special at the moment at Hare and Forbes. I'd really love to be able to rip down or cut sheets of MDF or Melamine to do the laundry/kitchen reno and any unit that would allow me to do so in a machine under say $2500 would be really nice.

I was wondering if the fence could be changed adjusted on the W452 - SB12 from Hare and Forbes also as the waste of fence to the left is intriguing.

Any tips on what I should be looking at or options to adjust modify or add to a standard saw of any make/kind would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Geoff

[AndrewPatrol]

Gday Geoff, while I’m not sure on that model of saw, I do know that cutting melamine requires a real good saw with a special blade also with what is known as a scribe blade. This is to get no chipping on edge. With the saw you’re looking at you’ll be lucky to get chip free cuts unless you cut it over size and route the edge. Or you could put the chipped edge on the inside or less visible part of cabinet.
When I’ve made melamine cabinets I ordered the pre-cut panels from a sheet goods/board supply factory. Surprisingly economic. That way you can use your saw for real wood. Haha. Also saves heaving those bl*&^y heavy panels onto the saw.

[rogerwilco]

Hey Geoff,

I have limited experience, but will chime in with a few opinions.

I'm sceptical about cabinet saws with sliding attachments. They promise to 'do everything', but like most multi-purpose tools, I bet they don't do any one thing as well as the tool intended for that job. For example, if you're working with full size sheets and making cabinets, a panel saw is going to do that job perfectly, easily, and repeatably. Cutting full size sheets on an outrigger sliding attachment on a cabinet saw will be possible, but I wouldn't bet my breakfast on being able to achieve the same accuracy as a panel saw. That's just my opinion though. I haven't owned either a TS with sliding attachment, or a panel saw.

I haven't used the ST-254, but many people don't like the fence, and those items are often upgraded. Here is just one random thread, I'm sure there are many more Info for Hafco ST-254 Table Saw (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f153/info-hafco-st-254-table-191319).

It's an entry level cabinet saw, so you can expect it'll do the things you want, but I probably wouldn't expect it to be the last saw you ever want/need. That might be okay with you - noted that you've incrementally upgraded from DIY arrangements through to gradually more advanced setups. Personally, I try to buy a level above what I think I need, and upgrade very infrequently. My first TS is a 12" cabinet saw and perhaps in 5-10 years, I might upgrade to a Hammer K3 short stroke panel saw.

If a good panel saw is out of reach, and you think you won't often be making cabinets again after these projects, you could consider spending your budget on a better cabinet saw. Then, break down sheets to rough size with a straight edge and circular saw, and do finish cuts on the cabinet saw. It's not as convenient as a panel saw, but if you're not running a production shop and cutting up panels all the time, then it's a minor inconvenience. And you might find having a better tool makes everything else more fun.

Cheers, -RW

[aldav]

If space isn't a problem second hand 240V panel saws come up fairly often these days at reasonable prices - <$3,500.

[Lappa]

I may be wrong, but I think the sliding attachment for that saw is only good for 1/2 sheets.

[Fuzzie]

Hi Geoff,

I've been dealing with a similar dilemma! I moved 12 months ago and downsized my workshop equipment but kept my old 12" contractor TS which subsequently blew up. Shortly after, I decided the Timbecon Sherwood 12" hybrid was on sale at a good price and I decided to buy that as it was 5/8" arbor and my old blades would still be useful. There were however none in the country and it went on back order.

While I was waiting I talked myself into the "I should just use the machines at the Men's shed" mode and eventually decided to cancel my order. No problems, and as it happens it still looks like they haven't got any in stock again anyway.

A couple of weeks later we went into another Covid lock down - no Men's shed. I started looking at saws again. The Men's shed has a Sawstop Professional with the sliding table attachment. The slider hardly ever gets used and is mostly just in the way. The slider is way too far away from the blade to be useful, unless I guess you only ever cut big sheet goods. The Sawstop at the shed has also had a few misfires as well that makes me a bit wary of that safety technology. As far as I am aware no misfire has been due to meat hitting the blade. There have been accidents with nails and aluminium edges and several other unattributed events.

I became persuaded of the relative safety features of a Euro style slider and started looking at the small DIY ones available. The Hammer K3 was out of my budget, but the H&F (Record Power) TS250R small panel saw looked a possibility, however that is on backorder at H&F with a delivery date that keeps going out.

I then found LEDA had a small slider MJ2325F in stock. I couldn't actually touch and feel either the TS250R or the Leda which was a problem in making a decision, but I found the closest manuals I could and compared them and the Leda looked a little more solid all around and was about the same price as the H&F delivered. It was also in stock and available for delivery.

It arrived this week and I am still in the process of setting it up.

The MJ2325F is essentially the same machine as a H&F ST254. The slider however is entirely different to the accessory extension as added to the ST254PT, it is a Euro style slider along the lines of the Hammer K3 design, at 1/3 the cost (with no doubt a real reduction in quality). I think the accessory slider on the ST254PT would be just as annoying as the one on the Sawstop at the shed.

I've just about got the slider leveled to my satisfaction, but the Align-A-Rip fence is not great. The TS250R has a cast iron fence more suitable to a slider. I'm going to have to add a high low auxiliary sliding sub fence to make it useful, but I don't think I'll be using it as much as on a traditional table saw anyway.

I found it helped reading this link (http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/slider.html) to visualize how using a slider might change your work pattern and the expectations for the saw.

There are still some issues with the MJ2325F. The riving knife is too high to make non through cuts and as I said the rip fence is not optimal, but I think I can address those.

If I had decided to go with a standard tablesaw I would have gone with the Harvey Ambassador C200-30. I think that is better quality than the ST254 and also a bit cheaper than the small sliders.

Just my 2c worth,
Franklin

[aldav]

Is the MJ2325 a cabinet saw or a hybrid?

[riverbuilder]

The easiest and most economical way to cut sheets for kitchen cabinets is to get them done at a cut to size panel place on their machines and edge banders. Then assemble a flat pack in the room and install them.
I say this as a joiner with every machine in my shed including a big panel saw. They also can buy the sheets at about half the price I can. It’s just not worth all the pain to do it yourself.

[Fuzzie]

Is the MJ2325 a cabinet saw or a hybrid?

Descriptions tend to say panel saw or cabinet saw, however the saw assembly and motor are bolted to the underside of the table which I believe makes this a Hybrid.

[havabeer69]

The easiest and most economical way to cut sheets for kitchen cabinets is to get them done at a cut to size panel place on their machines and edge banders. Then assemble a flat pack in the room and install them.
I say this as a joiner with every machine in my shed including a big panel saw. They also can buy the sheets at about half the price I can. It’s just not worth all the pain to do it yourself.

+1 to this.

while not as fun or nice to say "I built this all from scratch." at least everything comes cut out to size, wrapped up as flat packs, and most likely pre drilled as well. It really will save a bunch of time and money.

save on the sliding attachment for a cabinet saw and sink the money into good dust extraction.

[Greg Q]

I have previously owned a Felder slider and now do again, ( but its trapped in Melbourne and I am not). Anyway…I wouldn’t cut my own sheets either* Make a cutlist and farm it out to a cnc mob that will likely charge you less than your cost for the sheets, if you can get them. Plus all of the 32mm system holes will be there for hinges etc.

Also, be aware that there is a shortage of good drawer runners (and sheet goods), so a small order for those things might be forever at the hack of the queue.

By all means get a good saw, but you might be able to divert some of the money to better doors, better screws (spax), better assembly tools and aids, better handles etc.

*well, not standard commodity sheets for standard boxes. For custom or traditional cabinets, yes, I do. It gets old fast, and I have to break down sheets with the track saw first because I don’t find doing the clean and jerk with a 35 kilo sheet as entertaining as I used too.

Greg

[garfield]

Gday Geoff, while I’m not sure on that model of saw, I do know that cutting melamine requires a real good saw with a special blade also with what is known as a scribe blade. This is to get no chipping on edge. With the saw you’re looking at you’ll be lucky to get chip free cuts unless you cut it over size and route the edge. Or you could put the chipped edge on the inside or less visible part of cabinet.
When I’ve made melamine cabinets I ordered the pre-cut panels from a sheet goods/board supply factory. Surprisingly economic. That way you can use your saw for real wood. Haha. Also saves heaving those bl*&^y heavy panels onto the saw.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah I understand they have ripper machines with the scribe blade which gives an awesome clean edge, but to be honest I have a 60T blade on my Makita at the moment and have been pretty happy with edge on the melamine with that, and seeing it is covered inside the door I'll cop that finish.

[garfield]

If a good panel saw is out of reach, and you think you won't often be making cabinets again after these projects, you could consider spending your budget on a better cabinet saw. Then, break down sheets to rough size with a straight edge and circular saw, and do finish cuts on the cabinet saw. It's not as convenient as a panel saw, but if you're not running a production shop and cutting up panels all the time, then it's a minor inconvenience. And you might find having a better tool makes everything else more fun.

Thanks for the reply Roger.

Yeah I am leaning that way I think. I bought a Ozito tracksaw to cut some sheets down to a manageable size over the weekend but was so disappointed with the results of that thing that I returned it that afternoon. It wobbles and didn't cut straight lines and the blade sunk in, in certain areas was truly crap. I know it wasn't a top of the line product but thought it would be ok for ripping down sheets.

Anyhow thinking of making my own tracksaw and going about cutting them down and using the table saw for the clean and accurate cuts.

[garfield]

If space isn't a problem second hand 240V panel saws come up fairly often these days at reasonable prices - <$3,500.

Thanks for that. Have been looking but nothing really good in any of the sites and if there is they're mainly all interstate.

[garfield]

I may be wrong, but I think the sliding attachment for that saw is only good for 1/2 sheets.

Probably right Lappa. I only had a quick look as I don't have too much of an idea of what is best suited to my needs at the moment.

[garfield]

I then found LEDA had a small slider MJ2325F in stock. I couldn't actually touch and feel either the TS250R or the Leda which was a problem in making a decision, but I found the closest manuals I could and compared them and the Leda looked a little more solid all around and was about the same price as the H&F delivered. It was also in stock and available for delivery.

It arrived this week and I am still in the process of setting it up.

The MJ2325F is essentially the same machine as a H&F ST254. The slider however is entirely different to the accessory extension as added to the ST254PT, it is a Euro style slider along the lines of the Hammer K3 design, at 1/3 the cost (with no doubt a real reduction in quality). I think the accessory slider on the ST254PT would be just as annoying as the one on the Sawstop at the shed.

I've just about got the slider leveled to my satisfaction, but the Align-A-Rip fence is not great. The TS250R has a cast iron fence more suitable to a slider. I'm going to have to add a high low auxiliary sliding sub fence to make it useful, but I don't think I'll be using it as much as on a traditional table saw anyway.

I found it helped reading this link (http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/slider.html) to visualize how using a slider might change your work pattern and the expectations for the saw.

There are still some issues with the MJ2325F. The riving knife is too high to make non through cuts and as I said the rip fence is not optimal, but I think I can address those.

If I had decided to go with a standard tablesaw I would have gone with the Harvey Ambassador C200-30. I think that is better quality than the ST254 and also a bit cheaper than the small sliders.

Just my 2c worth,
Franklin

Thanks for the reply Franklin.

I will have a look at the
Leda machine, and also will look at the Harvey. Think I have read some decent reviews on that brand while browsing also.

Thanks for that

[garfield]

The easiest and most economical way to cut sheets for kitchen cabinets is to get them done at a cut to size panel place on their machines and edge banders. Then assemble a flat pack in the room and install them.
I say this as a joiner with every machine in my shed including a big panel saw. They also can buy the sheets at about half the price I can. It’s just not worth all the pain to do it yourself.

Thanks for the reply.

Mate I know I can get it done that way but I just really wanna do it myself and donut at home.

[garfield]

+1 to this.

while not as fun or nice to say "I built this all from scratch." at least everything comes cut out to size, wrapped up as flat packs, and most likely pre drilled as well. It really will save a bunch of time and money.

save on the sliding attachment for a cabinet saw and sink the money into good dust extraction.

I'm really keen to get it all done at home mate. Think I'll just cut the sheets down to a manageable size and do the rest on the table saw.

[garfield]

I have previously owned a Felder slider and now do again, ( but its trapped in Melbourne and I am not). Anyway…I wouldn’t cut my own sheets either* Make a cutlist and farm it out to a cnc mob that will likely charge you less than your cost for the sheets, if you can get them. Plus all of the 32mm system holes will be there for hinges etc.

Also, be aware that there is a shortage of good drawer runners (and sheet goods), so a small order for those things might be forever at the hack of the queue.

By all means get a good saw, but you might be able to divert some of the money to better doors, better screws (spax), better assembly tools and aids, better handles etc.

*well, not standard commodity sheets for standard boxes. For custom or traditional cabinets, yes, I do. It gets old fast, and I have to break down sheets with the track saw first because I don’t find doing the clean and jerk with a 35 kilo sheet as entertaining as I used too.

Greg

Thanks for the reply Greg.

I know that option is there but I will be doing it myself. The way I see it there is no way I can get the sheets all down into flatpacks and get it done cheaper than doing myself.

If you get half decent edges then there isn't much to making a kitchen cabinet. I can handle the struggle if picking up the sheets and messing around with then at home also. Having something to do for whatever period it ends up being is a good thought for me. Having the radio going in the background and making saw dust sounds bloody tops to me. I can custom make everything and if I get the cabinets made and stack them it doesn't have to be knocked over in a few weeks I can just take my time and enjoy while doing them.

[havabeer69]

I bought a Ozito tracksaw .

yep, ozito tools are pretty much a single use item. Most of the workers at bunnings know this. There's always a reason why the ozito is $250 and the makita is $750.

[riverbuilder]

Here’s one, in Sydney, it will do everything you need and more, safely.
Log into Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/225749232778013/)

[Fuzzie]

This H&F small slider still seems to be listed near Sydney and you get a dusty as well for $1500. Looks more discarded than abused...
Sliding table saw in NSW (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f253/sliding-table-nsw-242468-post2246520)