Make a file guide for saw sharpening [Archive]

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Cklett

31st October 2021, 09:01 PM

I made a file guide

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This built is part of a different story. (How many Handles from one Board (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/tool-handles-board-239093-post2259707#post2259707))

As I was getting into hand saws and sharpening, I decided I wanted to make an adjustable file guide similar to the Veritas or Blackburn one, but my own variation. Most of my builds they start with an idea and then I am just getting at it. Which mainly leads to some issues, failures and redesigning on the run 😉

The design I was planning on was a design, which does not require a lathe. I am sure with a lathe you could make this quite easily. The most difficult feature I had to solve was the way the file is securely held. The existing ones have a triangular hole and first I thought I cannot make a triangular hole in a round stock.

I had a colleague who made me these inserts on his 3D printer and I was planning to use these and just buy standard round tube stock for the file holder.

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But as bad luck had it my local brass supplier had no suitable tube in stock. Instead I then bought 1/2 “ solid brass rod.
I needed to figure out how I could make triangular holes. I researched a bit on how to make a broach for square holes and thought this should also work with triangles. After I raided IanW’s spent saw file bucket (thanks a lot Ian!) I used these files to make short broaches.

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For that I did cut small slots with a Dremel cut-off disc every 10mm and did cut the broches to length which I could manage in my vice. I made some tests in 3mm thick brass where I first drilled some holes of a size smaller than the file and used the vice to carefully push the broch through the hole. In order to get the triangle clean and of the size I wanted I had to use a sequence of broches with increasing size. I did not anneal the files and so also didn’t harden them again either. I was a bit scared they could snap and bits flying in my eyes, so I wore safety glasses and on top help a piece of timber on top of the vice so that any flying bits would just fall down. Luckily nothing happened.

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In order to repeat this in the round stock for the file holder I had to drill a center hole of sufficient size (in my case 5mm) in a short piece of it (35mm). I made myself a small block of hard wood and drilled a 1/2“ with a spade bit just deep enough for the tip of the spade to poke through the other end. This allows me to put my work piece into the hole and then center punch the location for the hole through the tiny hole at the bottom. And with a small tapped screw form the side I could also use this block to hold the workpiece for drilling after I rotated the piece so the punched mark is now up.

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I drilled the hole from both sides to ensure the entry and exit are at least center. Then I used my above approach to slowly shape the center hole into triangular from one end. I was not able to push the broches all the way through. Instead, I pushed them all in and then tapped them back out again from the other side. I used increasing sized of broaches until I had a size and shape good enough for the job to just hold my biggest file.

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After that I also used the holder from before to locate and drill a smaller hole perpendicular to one of the triangle sides for an M4 thread. This is for the screw which will firmly push the file into one corner and secures it.
It doesn’t matter that the hole is not triangular all the way through. At least this way it also follows the taper which most files have at the tip.

Ok that is the file holding part done. Now to the body.

It was clear that I was going to use She Oak as the timber and I was actually planning to have a dovetailed metal housing. I had some leftover round brass which I had used for the front of my block plane (The ever changing block plane (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/changing-block-plane-makeover-239346?highlight=)). I though it would look cool if I use a segment of that as the face plate and then connect metal plates top and bottom for the locking screw of the rake and the indicator for the fleam.

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That went terribly wrong. I managed to cut the dovetails alright. But I decided to drill the big hole for the file holding part first and then peen it together. And as I happily soldiered on, I realized too late that with the big hole there wasn’t enough integrity left and I smashed it to a nice oval shape…

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I then abandoned the idea of dovetailing. I think it is possible, but I didn’t have the nerve anymore and decided to simplify. Another issue I had was to drill a precise 1/2” hole in the curved part. I could only manage a 14mm hole with a step drill bit in my power drill. Off course it meant the hole would have a been a tad too big.

So a new design was needed:

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My Ixion hand cranked Lazarus drill was not able to cut the big size hole. Everything up to 8mm is great and bigger sometimes works and sometimes not so much.
That was that I remembered I still had a Dawn post drill in storage I was meant to clean up. Luckily that was fully functional and did the job beautifully.

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Only issue now was that the round stock I had was just over 1/2” and I needed to file it down a little. Good on that was that it created a little step, which now seats the holder perfectly in the hole 😉.

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The rest was then pretty much straight forward. I shaped the wood the way I wanted it and prepared the top and bottom metal plates. They have each M5 threaded holes for the rake screw and fleam screw. I first glued the top and bottom plate in. After the epoxy set I filed it flush and glued the front plate in pace. I used the file holder to locate the plate properly and secured with two slotted brass screws. They got filed of and sanded and polished.

Finally, I placed two rivets to hold the top and bottom plate securely together with the timber sandwiched in between.

The indicator for the fleam is cut out of some 1mm brass sheet.

By now you probably have noticed that I have not put any scales on it. I am not quite sure how I am going to do that. I am not good enough to engrave anything myself. I do have some printable transparent labels and was going to print the scales and stick them on, but I need a laser printer for that and won’t get to that until next week sometime.

In the meantime, I came up with a work around. I cut myself a small piece of plywood with a notch to reach across the filer holder. I can clamp this on the reference side of the file (the side cutting the front of the tooth) and then reference with a square of protractor to the fleam indicator and adjust to the rake and fleam I want to have. This should get me until I have printed the labels or maybe found someone who could laser engrave or something…

To get the rake:
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To get the fleam:
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And good to go:
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Here again all the parts and the final product.
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So, I did not come up with a revolutionary idea for a file guide. I only came up with my own version, what was already there. Anyway, it might help someone to make their own as well if they want to. I definately learned something and had lots of fun. Thanks for reading.

orraloon

31st October 2021, 10:23 PM

Thats a really great job. Much more upmarket than the scrap of wood I jam on the end of my saw file.
Regards
John

Bushmiller

31st October 2021, 10:54 PM

And all done without sophisticated metal working machinery, but much improvisation.

Fantastic!

Regards
Paul

Mountain Ash

1st November 2021, 06:59 AM

Like I said earlier, love your work!! Thanks for the thread. Even though my bits of wood jammed onto the end of my files could be described as custom, even bespoke :rolleyes:, I am inspired by your results. And now I have a justification for my reluctance to throw away blunt saw files :D.

IanW

1st November 2021, 08:40 AM

........And now I have a justification for my reluctance to throw away blunt saw files :D.

Yairs, old files are a tremendous resource, such a waste to just bin them! I have no idea what alloy they use for files, but all of the files I have re-purposed were easy to anneal and re-harden. I use old files for all sorts of tools. Depending on what you want to make with them, annealing may be advisable or necessary (they make dandy old-style turnscrews): 503231

If you have a fireplace or wood heater, chuck them in overnight & that usually does the trick nicely. For jobs like CK used them, there is no point in annealing, but be sensible about it - files will snap if you provoke them enough, but the result is usually not very dramatic, just a clean break at the major stress point, not a glass-like disintegration with bits flying everywhere. I expect that could happen in some circumstances, so sensible safety wear recommended - the minute or two spent looking for your safety glasses can save a whole lot of time & discomfort - damhik!. [Though I feel compelled to report that in the case I am thinking of, I was wearing safety glasses, but the darned things kept fogging up, so as I switched the grinder off, I pushed the glasses up, just in time to catch a tiny shard of steel that flew off the still-spinning wheel & speared into my right eye just outside the cornea. I have never spent a more uncomfortable 24 hours - my GP wouldn't touch it because it was in my eye & I had to wait a full day to see an opthalmologist, who put a drop of local in & had it out in something under 2 seconds... ]

CK, like MA, I have to commend the way you solve problems with the material & tools you have to work with - you're a great resource! When I first saw your guide in the other thread I immediately thought "how the heck did he broach that triangular hole so neatly when I know he's not got any metalworking gear to speak of?!". Now I know - brilliant! :U

Of course it would've been easier to pop over to my place & we could have turned & bored the two brass bits in 10 minutes, but you solved it all yourself, which may have taken a bit more time, but is probably much more satisfying.

Keep those creative juices flowing..... :)
Cheers,

Simplicity

1st November 2021, 12:21 PM

Cklett,

That was a fantastic work through, I especially love the idea of how you did your brooch, that was excellent.

Cheers Matt.

derekcohen

1st November 2021, 02:56 PM

Cklett

1st November 2021, 10:13 PM

Thanks a lot for all your comments.

CK, like MA, I have to commend the way you solve problems with the material & tools you have to work with - you're a great resource! When I first saw your guide in the other thread I immediately thought "how the heck did he broach that triangular hole so neatly when I know he's not got any metalworking gear to speak of?!". Now I know - brilliant! :U

Of course it would've been easier to pop over to my place & we could have turned & bored the two brass bits in 10 minutes, but you solved it all yourself, which may have taken a bit more time, but is probably much more satisfying.

Keep those creative juices flowing..... :)
Cheers,

I thought you would have immediately guessed that that's what I raided your spent files for ;-) Glad I could surprise you...

I was also thinking in-between to just come over and get something done on your lathe. But part of the fun for me is to find ways to get things done with what I have. The problem solving is the actual joy and off course having a product worth showing.

Anyway, here is also a question to the experts. I did some research on how to use such guide for sharpening cross customer saws.
And I came across the video below. At around 21:10 he does something which doesn't compute in my brain. I thought I would have to set the fleam fence to the angle I want and then file every 2nd tooth. Once I am down the saw I would then have to swing the fence to the other side bit same angle and sharpen the teeth I have skipped before.
However, he says instead you can just rotate the saw by 180. But when I try to visualise it, it doesn't add up. The file guide fleam setting would then still only work for the teeth I have already done. It just comes from the other direction.
He certainly knows more about woodworking than I do, so I am inclined to believe that I am missing something. Can somebody explain?

RWW 154 Veritas Saw File Guide - YouTube (https://youtu.be/IWv9HDx4bvo)

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Flintlock

2nd November 2021, 07:22 AM

"But when I try to visualise it, it doesn't add up. "
I think he is sharpening from one side, front to back and from the other side from back to front, if that makes any sense to you.

IanW

2nd November 2021, 09:22 AM

Yep, Flintlock has nailed it - You have to change either the rake angle or the fleam angle on the guide when you change sides. I work from heel to toe on both sides, so I have to reverse the fleam angle setting but the rake stays the same. If you work in opposite directions on each side you use the same fleam setting but reverse the rake. (The geometry will gel for you after you stand on your head a few times - at least it worked for me. :U).

I find it easier & more intuitive to change the fleam angle & work from the same end on each side, usually heel to toe, probably because I saw my father do it that way. But each to his own, there is no "right way" as far as I'm concerned, whatever you are more comfortable with...

I only use the file-holder guide when cutting new teeth or re-forming the teeth on a saw that has been got at by even less-skilled hands & needs major dentistry. If I'm sharpening a set of well-formed crosscut teeth, I do that "freehand", but I still use a "guide" of sorts. I drew a bunch of lines across the top of my saw vise at the most common fleam angle (15*), spaced 25-30mm apart. By keeping half an eye on the nearest line as I go I counter my bad habit of slowly creeping the file towards perpendicular as I go. If the existing teeth are a different angle from "standard", the fixed lines still serve as a guide, I just try to maintain a constant angle to them.

I watched a video of a bloke sharpening a very irregular saw (can't for the life of me find it now). He was using nothing but a file & reforming the teeth as he went along, in one pass, & all from the same side! If I tried that, the mess would simply have gotten (much!) worse, yet the teeth were coming along as perfect as you please. That's a skill that I can only admire & never hope to emulate... :C

I have to stand up to sharpen saws, I can't sit to do it like the bloke in the video you linked to, CK. I have to shuffle slowly along, keeping my arms & body in the same relative position to each tooth as much as possible. And it's becoming more difficult - my ageing body starts protesting strongly (or should that be 'weakly?) about holding itself in a fixed posture by the time I'm getting to the end of a full-sized handsaw.

Another common debate is whether you should sharpen alternate teeth from the same or opposite sides. There is a school that says you must do this, while others take a more relaxed approach. Tage Frid sharpened his saws (at least the smaller-toothed ones ) from the one side, & he was no slouch so I feel comfortable following his example. I do any rip saw of 12tpi or finer from one side, & occasionally larger saws if it's a quick touch-up & I'm feeling too lazy to switch. It does mean the file burrs are all on one side, but if you use an appropriate file that isn't too coarse, the burring is very minor & they are gone on teh first cut in any hard-ish wood. However, I have to do crosscuts of any size from opposite sides. Switching back & forth for each alternate tooth like the fella in the video I mentioned above was doing would turn my little brain inside out! :o

Cheers,

Cklett

2nd November 2021, 11:08 AM

Hmm, I am still confused. Here is how I am looking at it and maybe you can tell me where I am wrong.

I replicated what I saw in that videos.

First I'd file the orange gullets. Like in this picture

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/8fcb79668f745251ec8f8a487073647b.jpg

After I have done all the orange ones I want to do now the green ones. As he suggested I'd turn the saw around and adjust the rake. I understand that, because the front and back of the teeth have now switched places. No problem here.

But if I keep the fleam fence on the file guide the same as he did then the file wouldn't drop correctly into the green gullets. And that I can't wrap my head around.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211102/85e93774c6ac104a9086cd154b86643c.jpg

In the end it's OK as I can just flip the fleam guide and am happy to follow that approach. It just bugs me if I see something and it doesn't make sense to me....

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IanW

2nd November 2021, 12:59 PM

Think of it like this, C: Imagine the saw cut in half depthwise & side two is peeled off & brought in line with side one so you simply keep filing from the one side. The fleam angle will not have changed so the fleam guide indicator is still correct. However, the rake angles have been reversed, so you have to fix that (I always wondered why Veritas made the vernier scale for rake read each side of zero - it's for those who like to file this way, obviously :U ).

But if you file from heel to toe, then turn the saw around & start from the heel again, the fleam indicator will be wrong & need adjusting, but you don't need to change rake.

I'm sure it'll click when you attack an actual saw....
Cheers,
Ian

Cklett

2nd November 2021, 04:43 PM

Thanks Ian, I am sure it'll work itself out once I have done a few I will have found what works for me. And if not I know where to find you [emoji6]

In the meantime I looked at a few other instructions and found this.

How To Sharpen a Croscut Saw Hand Saw Sharpening - YouTube (https://youtu.be/XE9Ne3MUXn0)

At around 10:50 he does the same thing. Turns the saw around and adjust the rake setting at the file guide. But he also adjusts the fleam fence on the file guide as well. That one computes with me.

Isn't it great that you only need to look long enough on the internet to find what fits into one's view of the world. [emoji6]

I'll be heading off now. There are some saws waiting to look sharp. [emoji16]

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Cklett

4th November 2021, 03:01 PM

Fantastic job! If I did not have the Veritas version, I would be tempted to make a posh one like yours.

I have found it helpful to have a bubble level epoxied on top. Find a cheap one at Bunnies similar to this ...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fSgAAOSwHt9ebAJ4/s-l1600.jpg

This is not to be pedantic about the angle, but it does help keep one consistently in the range - it is amazing how a slight tilt of the hand will change the angle quite radically.

Regards from Perth

DerekDerek, did you mean something like this?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211104/e26bb8118bd0ef4be6cdc0c512aa6eb3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211104/b553928e5ba64f47cbbdd5848aa99e4a.jpg

I didn't have enough time to go to Bunnings. But could spend a couple of hours more in the shed [emoji16]

Luckily I found a scrap piece of saw blade, a bit of brass tube and a spare vial from a different project.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211104/ffebb36ba2e02d9e1251df5cbc79a74c.jpg

Honestly, I first thought these spirit levels on the guide more like a gimmick. But after your advise, I was more like, why not.

Thanks for that. I will see how that goes. And if I don't like it, I can always unscrew it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211104/abe105bfc1197b1d01aaab2431ba2c37.jpg

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Bushmiller

4th November 2021, 04:13 PM

Cklett

4th November 2021, 05:12 PM

CK

That little vial is the icing on the cake.

When I was trying to get my head around how I would make a version of the Henry Briggs patent (It was 1922 by the way) I wanted to incorporate a vial and I even bought the vials. Somewhere I have some round vials too, but I can't find them.

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The Blackburn Tools Rakemaker 2 does this but the pic I posted (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/tool-handles-board-239093/4) (#46) in your board thread was so small you probably would not have picked it up.

I still cannot enlarge it, but here is another shot.

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I think your version looks better.

Regards
PaulHi Paul,

I had studied the Blackburn one as well and searched their pictures to how they attached the bubble level. They are using two screws from below at either end of that octagonal casing.

I am glad you like my version. Thank you

CK

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Simplicity

4th November 2021, 06:14 PM

I’m just Personally glad too see some spirts have finally arrived in the Tool making world,selling my soul has obviously payed off.

I can put my taro cards away now,an stop howling at full moons,the neighbours didn’t appreciate the howling.

Cheers Matt.

Bushmiller

4th November 2021, 06:39 PM

I can put my taro cards away now,an stop howling at full moons,the neighbours didn’t appreciate the howling.

Cheers Matt.

Matt

You don't happen to live near Crunchie (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f17/hound-littlehampton-244283) do you as he is having an issue?

Regards
Paul

Simplicity

4th November 2021, 07:01 PM

Matt

You don't happen to live near Crunchie (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f17/hound-littlehampton-244283) do you as he is having an issue?

Regards
Paul

No, but his dog is a bit off a howler [emoji6]

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derekcohen

4th November 2021, 08:36 PM

Here are mine - very basic vials from Bunnings. But they work :)

https://i.postimg.cc/fLWRsq2q/18.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/fLHTR71z/17.jpg

You will be surprised how much one loses the angle without appearing to move the hand. The aim here is not to be ultra precise, but rather to be as consistent as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

IanW

4th November 2021, 08:44 PM

......But if you file from heel to toe, then turn the saw around & start from the heel again, the fleam indicator will be wrong & need adjusting, but you don't need to change rake......

Wrong again! :doh: I should spend more time thinking & less typing!

When you switch to side 2 and start from the same end of the saw, you do have to change both rake and fleam angles just as the bloke in your video sez. I got so confused trying to think it out in my head, I went to the shed, set up a file in my Veritas guide, & tested each approach.

However, it is correct that if you turn around & start side 2 from the opposite end from which you started on side 1 (i.e. keep filing in a 'circle'), you don't need to change the fleam angle on the guide, but you do need to change the rake angle.

So both videos are correct......
Cheers,

Mountain Ash

5th November 2021, 07:06 AM

Hi CK. IanW has a link to a good sharpening guide that taught me enough to get started. It did however have a confusing way of setting fleam. I just cut the angle on my guide block twice, forming a point which lines up for both sides.

Something which I have also wondered about was the need to shape teeth. I have found in practice that I joint, sharpen and set on saws with reasonable teeth, skipping the shaping step. This seems to work but....what do others do?

IanW

5th November 2021, 12:14 PM

...... I have found in practice that I joint, sharpen and set on saws with reasonable teeth, skipping the shaping step. This seems to work but....what do others do?

Same as you, MA., though I don't joint every time I sharpen. For my own saws I do a light 'topping' every half dozen sharpenings or so. My normal routine is to do two light touch-ups, maybe three, after a full sharpen & set. By then the teeth have lost too much set, so as long as the teeth are in otherwise good shape, I re-set, sharpen & its good to go for another round or three.

I only re-form saws that come to me in very bad shape (& there've been a few of those over the years!), or if someone wants a different tpi than what's on the saw currently. If extensive re-forming is required, it's almost as hard on a file as cutting new teeth from scratch & I've had some so bad they needed jointing two or three times before I could get the teeth even again. Cutting new teeth from scratch is the hardest on files, even with great care, the pressure on the sharp corner as the tooth is started is testing the limits of the steel. Most files nowadays seem to be a bit more brittle than the files of 30-40 years ago, too, which doesn't help. If you are trying to make regular, even strokes & the file keeps catching on broken teeth, it's very difficult to make even teeth. I should ditch the file immediately it starts to catch & break out a new one, but my Scottish heritage forces me to keep going 'til it stops cutting at all . P'raps it's just nostalgia & wishful-thinking, but I swear files never lost teeth the way they seem to now......

Cheers,

Cklett

6th November 2021, 07:35 PM

Finally got to sharpen some saws. I touched up two rip saws and converted two saws to cross cut teeth (25 degrees fleam). That took a while as I had to reshape the teeth.

For the reshaping I did not want to flip the saw around and so on. But to avoid having to reset the fleam fence all the time I thought I test out a split fence. Like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/2e77034cddcc97f28cf0ab2f9ec88a0e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/7830a837d8b3d3e329b9b0e53df5af9b.jpg

I don't know if this is a good idea or not. Just gave it a go. I thought this way I can go back and forth if I need to reshape a tooth and don't get it quite right first time. I set the fence so that one half is only help parallel to the saw.

I used that for the reshaping of the teeth. Then I set the teeth and for the final sharpen I then went from both sides like to have the bur equally left and right.

Anyway, I think I got it OK. Both cross cut saws did cut afterwards alright and I am satisfied for the moment. Although I am sure there is still room for improvement. But they cut straight and in cross cut a tad faster than the rip cut saws.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/c00ea278e3f7b1e9733451117d0ca854.jpg

The little blocks in the picture show some comparison cuts.

I also found setting the fleam angle works quite good when you lay some lines on paper and then adjust to that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/59c3bb3978ef79471a84f77ffb93d798.jpg

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IanW

6th November 2021, 08:50 PM

Cklett

6th November 2021, 09:45 PM

All good, CK., whatever works, works.

Interesting that you are reluctant to file from each side, which is the time-honoured method. However, I do empathise with your reluctance, the most difficult lesson I've had to learn (& still learning!) is keeping te oposite set of teeth consistent when I turn a crosscut saw around. I have a tendency to apply a little more pressure on the right side of the file unless I concentrate very hard not to. That causes me to cut a bit more from the leading edge on one side & the trailing edge on the other which creates a small error that is doubled by turning the saw around.

Practice, practice, practice is the solution, but even with the silly number of saws I own, I don't get enough to become as competent as I'd like to be. So when you only sharpen saws once every 3-6 months (which is probably more than average!), I think it's sensible to stick with a method that you find gives you good results. If your saws cut reasonably quickly & follow a line accurately, I reckon you're travelling well...
:)
Cheers,I actually only filed from one side only during reshaping the teeth before setting and final sharpening.

I find that I am not yet consistent enough and so I had to switch between teeth and direction to get the shape right and maintain tooth size and alignment. And that is easier when not having to flip the saw around continuously or so.

But after that I did set the teeth and when I did a final sharpen I followed the approach in the Wood by Wright video.

I sure with practise I will get more consistent and really only need to go through once on each side or something like that.

I still have two more saws I want to put a cross cut pattern on. Will see how that goes [emoji6]

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