Advice on trailer sailer plans.

[Endbit]

Hello All,
After 5 years of playing house extension and rebuilding I’ve decided that a boat is what a really want to be building. I’m another boat building virgin so excuse any stupid questions.
I’m down to two designs that cover what I’m looking for in a boat. My wife wants a floating caravan and I’d like something that can sail a bit that’s easy to launch. A 6.4m trailer sailer, either the Hartley or David Payne designs are the two top contenders at the moment.

So some questions...
Is building from cedar strip allot more expensive than cold molded ply?
Can the David Payne trailer sailer can be built cold molded like Scotty’s beautiful Waller? The Waller is a great boat but I’m after something a little bigger than the 5.4 although Mike tells me he’s working on designs for a 6.9.
I’m still waiting for the Hartley study plans to turn up an I’ve contacted duck flat wooden boats in S.A., they are looking into study plans for the David Payne.
I’d be interested in any comments on how the boats perform, seeing I’ll be taking the family out so one concern is getting the boat back up should I tip it over. I’ve heard a Hartley is hard to bail once full but are forgiving and hard to tip. I'd love to hear comments on your David Payne 5.4 Graeme.

I thought bulding was the hard part. deciding on a boat is a killer. I’m keen to get going, I’ve even cleaned out the shed! :eek:

[bitingmidge]

The Hartley was a great boat for it's time, more than 30 years ago, and a lot has changed in design and construction techniques in that time.

You are going to be spending a considerable lump of dough, so why would you build a dinosaur??

Both of the other options are terrific, cedar will be considerably more expensive than ply, but again, have a look at relatively small extra cost of the material involved as a percentage of the whole project, and it becomes incidental.

Have you had a look at the Norwalk Island Sharpie?? Ply can be a pretty efficient construction material using modern designs.

cheers,

P

[Endbit]

Thanks bitingmidge,
Must admit the age of the Hartley design is a concern but construction looks pretty straight forward. There is a Mk 3 now but it just looks like a changed cabin design. There are a few Hartley clubs around as well which is handy for advice and perhaps some second hand goodies as a plus.
Yes I have looked at the NIS 23 but the ketch rig puts me off a little and seems to sit a bit low in the water. It's a beautiful boat though, looks like it's made of wood. It was defiantly one of the top contenders. The Vagabond 23 was up there but it doesn't look like it will beach very well but it's a Trans-Atlantic tested cruiser. I’ve herd it doesn’t overload to well though and I’ve seen a Hartley TS21 with a dozen people on it going for a punt on the river.
I'd like to be able to take a few extra people on board even if it's just for a cruise with the outboard. With the white pointers seen hanging round my nearest boat ramp I'll definatly want one that will be staying upright.;)

[Gumby]

With the white pointers seen hanging round my nearest boat ramp I'll definatly want one that will be staying upright.;)
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Topless sheilas hang around your boat ramp - you lucky bugger. :)

[Endbit]

Topless sheilas hang around your boat ramp - you lucky bugger. :)

I'm sure there's a line in there about being eaten by white pointers but I'll keep it G rated :D

[Ecca]

Endbit, I have over the years built 2ply chine boats, 4 strip planked and 1 cold moulded of 3 layers. Cost is one thing and time is another. When you cold mould with 3 layers , you are building 3 hulls. It's a good strong hull but does take time. But I like the journey and not the destination. I will cold mould again.
regards Ecca

[fxst]

Endbit I have a hartley 21(ply, chine hull) and yes its dated but its stable and has 3 configs ...swing keel (centreboard), Bilge keels (popular in tidal areas esp England) and keel boat. An added bonus? is that it can be streched to 24ft by spacing the frames (hartley approved) 2 cabin versions so you can have either a large or small cockpit and a couple sail plans. Floats in about 12" of water in centreboard version and trails ok too. I have looked at other boats but stick with this one because of the stability. Was first across the line in the 1970? Tripolis (Pt Augusta-Whyalla-Pt Pirie -Pt Augusta) :D
Outclassed now though:( but then I dont race either
Pete

[Endbit]

Thanks Pete handy to know you can stretch the Hartley, the study plans turned up today but it doesn’t mention that, hmm move the triton and that pile of wood at the back of the shed and that just might fit. (took almost a moth for the plans to turn up just in case anyone is thinking of ordering them).
There’s not much else out there that can beach flat with as much interior space and still be towed behind the family wagon.
A Victorian TS21 owner has the cabin extended about 60cm for extra camping room. I think I’ll be using it as much as a houseboat as a sailer so that could be handy.
I emailed David Payne for the study plans, he replied the same day and was very helpful. Must say I was impressed. It can be cold moulded or lapstrake with ply, my current preference (I think)
I’d be happy with either of them but I think David’s is ahead because the centreboard doesn’t push up into the cabin from what I can see due to the stub keel. I’ll know or sure when the study plans turn up. If I wasn’t interested in beaching it the Vagabond 23 would be the boat I’d be building although I think it’s more like a fibreglass boat with a bit of ply holding it together than a woodwork project.

I‘d chop off an arm so I’d stop saying ‘but on the other hand’ ‘cept I might need it for choppin’ wood.;)

[Daddles]

I have worked with and am working with David's plans (the Yellowtail and the 6m Motor Cruiser) and they are good. I've also emailed him directly asking a few questions and have always had a good and timely response. Added to that, a respected designer I know lists David as 'one of the good ones'.

Seriously, the designer is important. I've also suffered with a clown who did not deserve my money or my time :(

Richard

[graemet]

G'day Endbit,
My DP is practically impossible to tip over. Strip planking isn't hard, once you've done a couple of planks and the cost of the cedar is a miniscule part of the total cost. David is a delight to work with, a really nice bloke and his calculations are spot on! The 5.4 is only one of a stable of designs, I'm pretty sure he has a 6.4 stretched version with a bit more room inside. Potterage is building one down Tuross way and there is another sailing around Brighton in Adelaide which was built just after mine.
I wrote an article about building Teepookana in Australian Amateur Boat Builder a couple of years or so back which you may have. If you would like a copy, I think I still have it on my hard drive somewhere.
Cheers
Graeme

[Endbit]

Thanks Graeme,
Great to hear from you, If I end up with 1/2 as nice a finish as your boat I'll be a happy boy indeed. I'm sold on David Payne's 6.4 with a raised deck, good to hear they are hard to tip over. David is very good with communication and sent some study plans to me in three days. I'm just trying to avoid western red ceder because the dust can have a bad reaction in some evidently and I have two asthmatic children, I work at a school and the woodies tell me it's banned in SA schools because of that.
My wife likes the smooth hull look so I’m going to have a go at cold moulded instead of the lapstrake.
Thanks for your input all, my next posts should be some piccies of boat .:D
Pete

[Aberdeen]

Hi Endbit
Another almost novice woodie builder here, just finished my first Hartley 3.3m. Have already started to look at my next project and was taking an interest in the TS 21 from the photos I've seen on the net. Like the lines and if as easy to build as the one I've just finished that would be great.

Interested to see your progress photos when available for whichever one you end up building.

All the best and you should have a ball! g.angus(at)bigpond.net.au
Adelaide S.A. :)

Glenn

[fxst]

Hi Endbit
Another almost novice woodie builder here, just finished my first Hartley 3.3m. Have already started to look at my next project and was taking an interest in the TS 21 from the photos I've seen on the net. Like the lines and if as easy to build as the one I've just finished that would be great.

Interested to see your progress photos when available for whichever one you end up building.

All the best and you should have a ball! g.angus(at)bigpond.net.au
Adelaide S.A. :)

Glenn
Glenn have a look here and see what you reckon .......
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~hart1821/
But then I'm biased :D
weight is about 1000kg but still handles well and trails good too
Pete

[Boatmik]

There is an interesting comparison here.

Hartley was one of the great designers of his time. Many of his boats are perhaps not great masterpieces, but they are workmanlike (work as advertised) and his plans set a benchmark for many years.

My feeling too is that his TS16 is the transition point for the performance of modern yachts. It was one of the very first cabin yachts with a hull drawn more from sailing dinghies, so it had sensational performance for the time and made a lot of boats that were to come later possible (Farr, Young, Davidson, Whiting). All these New Zealand Designers come from the same tradition, but Hartley was the first one to get commercial success for the concept

However that was 45 years ago.

I agree with much of the thread about David Payne's designs. He is a great designer - nearly all his boats have a "rightness" about their appearance. and because he has a long small boat racing background they all work very well. He knows how to get performance without making the boats hard to sail.

It is an interesting point to contrast designs from each designer - it shows some of the changes in technology over the intervening years.

The Hartley hulls are largely self supporting - there are enough ribs, floors and deckbeams to hold the boat's skin rigidly.

However with David's boats (and many modern designers - Kirby, Bolger, Oughtred, Holt and others) much of this additional timber ribs, floors deckbeams are eliminated with large savings in cost. The loads are carried by the interior fitout of the boat. There is a gridwork of support from all the furniture bonded directly to the hull.

For example the seat tops support the sides of the hull, the seat fronts support the bottom of the hull. The galley structure and berths all have these stiffening and strengthening effects providing a hugely strong network of parts.

In a Hartley the furniture can be left out almost entirely and the boats will still be strong enough - the furniture is not expected to make much of a contribution.

The difference is largely in the effectiveness of modern adhesives - notably epoxy. It allows any part of the boat to be effectively mechanically connected to adjacent parts in a structural way.

Hartley relied on his current technology of glues that were not particularly gap filling which were backed up by lots of screws and nails.

The modern designers don't use many screws and nails - the glues are much more effective than fastenings by a long chalk - many of the modern boats may use fasteners to hold parts together while the glue sets up, but then are often removed.

For example fibreglass boats don't use nails and screws - even where they use timber for bulkheads or furniture - it is simply fibreglass taped in place - and the modern epoxy timber boats are put together in the same way.

So what to build?

Hartley has a huge range of plans with few gaps in sizing - if you want a 17ft half cabin outboard or inboard - Hartley has a plan for it or something very close.

It may be hard to find a more modern design with modern construction that fits in the same gap.

But wherever you can find a modern boat plan that is from one of the better of the modern designers (like the names above) it will have significant savings in timber cost and labour and also be much easier to build (eg you don't need to notch everything in the interior to fit over all those ribs, floors and stringers for example).

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[STEPHEN MILLER]

Endbit cold moulded ply using west system etc is the way to go a bloke 2 houses down from me built a cedar strip plank boat 22 ft sail or power took 6 years of work every weekend and took 6 months off in the middle to maintain his sanity. Strip planking is can be easier when there is 2 of you as well.
Boatmik has given you lots of good ideas, David Payne are certainly tried and true designs, the only thing with Duck Flat you can it cheaper elsewhere if you look, ask a round and they tend to try and convince you to build the boat they want to sell you the bits to not the one you want to build. So if Daddles can finally finishes his Yellowtail it goes to prove that anybody can build boats even the Daddles of the world even if he had help with the hard bits anything is possible, some of the people who worked on it with have gone on to greater things like my son who is now a apprentice shipwright
NIS's are lovely looking boat and sail well but if you want a water going caravan the are a bit narrow when you can get a design in the same length with a bit more width.
Also you can still do the same course that Daddles and my son did at Douglas Mawson TAFE at the Port and you would learn most thing you need to know to get started:cool:

[Aberdeen]

I have worked with and am working with David's plans (the Yellowtail and the 6m Motor Cruiser) and they are good. I've also emailed him directly asking a few questions and have always had a good and timely response. Added to that, a respected designer I know lists David as 'one of the good ones'.

Seriously, the designer is important. I've also suffered with a clown who did not deserve my money or my time :(

Richard

Hey Daddles,
You've seen mine in the water and I've seen your redback in the water but when are we going to see Yellowtail get wet?

[Endbit]

Happy new years to everyone and thanks for your replies. I built a little model of the DP from the study plans he sent so I could show my wife what the raised deck looked like, she has a hard time trying to picture things from plans.
I'm going with the DP 6.4 cold moulded. I'm just wondering what sort of budget I should be allowing for this. I've allowed 10k so far and I'm hoping that will get me most of the way, am I dreamin'? I noticed in this months Australian Amateur Boatbuilder mag that the finished cost of a Redfin 22 is $24,500. I'm assuming that that is built for you price. Well I'm hoping it is.

[Hobbyhorse]

Endbit,
I am glad to see that you have settled on a boat to build and are sticking to your original size parameters.

In 1968 I decided to build a Hartley 16 and did all the preparatory study etc and then figured that if I was going to build a 16 footer why not go up to an 18 footer. We then studied the plans and thought well why not build a Hartley 21 trailer sailer. Having established that this was what we wanted to do we figured well what the hell and we finally built a 33ft Woollacot. She was built in carvel form with steamed planks and ribs, was ketch rigged ,and took four and half years to build. Caernarvon was launched in 1972 and we sailed her around the Auckland area until 1975 when we sold her and bought a 36 foot double ended Lidgard sloop on which we left New Zealand for a 3 year trip around the world in 1976. Caernarvon II was obviously a very slow yacht as it took us 20 years to finally get back to New Zealand in her.

I guess this is all really a cautionary tale, but I would not have changed any of it were I to do it all again.

Rhys H.

[Endbit]

Thanks Rhys, I have that problem when I buy a computer, my wife hates me going to the computer shops. I'm a bit short on parking space to go any bigger so size was my easiest decision. The Idea of sailing around the world does sound appealing I' sure you'd have some great stories from a 20 year adventure. Wow I couldn't imagine a trip like that, about six lotto numbers short of being able to finance a trip like that also :)

[Hobbyhorse]

Endbit,
On looking back I must have been out of my mind when we left. We had $400 on board when we left NZ and just assumed that we would find work on our way around the world, which in fact we did. I worked in Gladstone at a joiners shop for a season which gave us enough to sail to the Med where we arrived broke. I then managed to find shipwright work in Israel, which led to further work in Cyprus and it just kept on from there. The thing that actually kept us in food all the way was my trade background and an Australasian "can" do attitude. I did have "paper" qualifications in the building trade but finally it was the tools that ensured that we did not go hungry.
Rhys H:)

[Boatmik]

READ THE DISCLAIMER AT THE BOTTOM

There is a huge range of boats built by people through Duck Flat and other similar companies.

If the company has a big range of plans available - like the Ducks - the customer gets lots of choice. If the company only sells a couple of lines then they will push you towards one of them - of course.

There is a tendancy for the people selling plans to try to sell the plans for boats that they know well and have seen built already - or from designers that they know have a good track record. This works strongly to the customer's advantage - particularly for the first time builder.

The reality is - if you don't know what you want to build they will make a number of suggestions (if there are a number of boats that fit your requirements). So it is "more likely" that you will end up building something they suggest.

If you turn up to Duck Flat with a clear idea of what you want to build then it is likely that you will end up building it. They might suggest something similar that they are more familiar with, but the choice is always up to you.
_____________________________

There is a big advantage in buying a plan from a company that is also engaged in boat building on a consistent basis. They know the plans better than the designer in many cases and are usually up to date with materials and methods.
_____________________________

There is a big advantage in buying from someone who will give backup support - that you can ring or email with any queries - or if local drop round with the plans in your hand. The more experienced the person at the company - the better advice you will get.

Where someone selling plans has a long and extensive track record supporting customers during their boatbuilding process it becomes very clear that some designers are very good and some are poor - in terms of explaining the building process clearly and avoiding errors. This feeds back into what plans the plans seller will tend to offer to a customer.
_______________________

Doing a boatbuilding course is great if you want to do it. But you can gain much the same knowledge by building a boat or two yourself.

A plan seller that can answer building questions and has the practical knowledge to help, and has a commitment to getting the boat built is as effective as doing a course.

THE REALITY IS (IT WAS FOR ME TOO) IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A SITUATION THAT WILL ALLOW THEM TO GIVE THEMSELVES THE PERMISSION TO BUILD THE BOAT.

SOME NEED TO DO A COURSE BEFORE THEY CAN GIVE THEMSELVES PERMISSION.
SOME CAN GIVE THEMSELVES PERMISSION IF THEY FEEL THEY HAVE ENOUGH BACKUP SUPPORT FROM SOMONE ELSE.
SOME WILL BE ABLE TO GIVE THEMSELVES PERMISSION IF THEY CAN UNDERSTAND THE PLANS.

best regards
Michael Storer

Disclaimer - I worked for Duck Flat between 1989 and 1993 - so know how the plan buying/selling process works - but may have inherited some bias :-)
I am not an employee any more but they sell my plans (as do others) and I do some design work for them from time to time

[Wild Dingo]

Mate get the trailer book from Glen L... great resource with plans and knowhow of putting your own trailer together from scratch

http://www.glenl.com

[Boatmik]

Mate get the trailer book from Glen L... great resource with plans and knowhow of putting your own trailer together from scratch

http://www.glenl.com

Pretty sure duckflat have copies.

www.duckflatwoodenboats.com

MIK

[rougholdjob]

About three years ago FXST mentioned in this forum that the Hartley TS21...'can be stretched to 24 feet by spacing the frames (Hartley approved) 2 cabin versions etc etc.' I haven't seen any mention of this excellent idea anywhere else. Can FXST contact me? [email protected]

Are you alive out there FXST?

I am trying to finish a Steve Redmond ELVER at the moment and I'm getting depresseder and depresseder about it. I suppose I'll finish it but it just is not really what I want. The stretched 21 sounds the duck's guts. I had a 16 for ten years and visited every square foot of the Gippsland Lakes. The stretched 21 sounds like the sort of spartan minimalist not-quite-live-aboard that I want.

Can any one direct me to FXST or any other source of information about the stretched TS21?

Regards,

Tom Moloney
rougholdjob

[fxst]

Sent u a pm Roughy
Forgot to mention there was 1 in Pt Lincoln a few years ago that did the Adelaide to Lincoln but it was the fixed keel version
Pete