Gluing Pine to Ply to make thicker lumber

[EagerBeaver71]

Hi,

I need to make some rails and stiles, I got some 7mm plywood and 12mm pine to make up 19 x 65 x 750mm.

Will I have any issue with wood movement of the pine?.

[China]

Most likely no, although depends on what you are making and the environment it will be in.

[EagerBeaver71]

Most likely no, although depends on what you are making and the environment it will be in.

Doors to a garage storage cabinet, frame and panel construction.

[auscab]

Doors to a garage storage cabinet, frame and panel construction.


I'm interested as to why you would want to laminate Ply and solid together to do R&S on Panel and frame construction?
Why not just solid for the rails and stiles ?
Solid for panel and frame is how it all started out a long time ago and its good for conditions where things may move about.
Or good because you just like it .
A good faster modern way of P&F work is to do solid R&S and ply panels. The Ply or mod board panel thickness and the slot it goes in match the mortise width and are in the same position back from the face of the job . You can then miter and add mouldings in later if you want them.
That Red Oak you had, was for the panels? How thick is that or the replacement your getting for it?

[EagerBeaver71]

I'm interested as to why you would want to laminate Ply and solid together to do R&S on Panel and frame construction?
Why not just solid for the rails and stiles ?
Solid for panel and frame is how it all started out a long time ago and its good for conditions where things may move about.
Or good because you just like it .
A good faster modern way of P&F work is to do solid R&S and ply panels. The Ply or mod board panel thickness and the slot it goes in match the mortise width and are in the same position back from the face of the job . You can then miter and add mouldings in later if you want them.


Hi Rob!,

I don't have any Red/White oak for the door R&S, so I thought maybe I could just make some up using offcuts from the 7mm panels I have and glue them to some solid wood.


That Red Oak you had, was for the panels? How thick is that or the replacement your getting for it?


Yeah its the Red Oak Panels again!, longs story but found out Forest1 who supply bunnings with the red oak panels have had a couple of bad batches
of the stuff. I took all mine back and went to another bunnings to get some more which doesn't have any issue with the veneer.

I have 18mm & 7mm in the Red Oak ply, I would make the rails and stiles out of the 18mm stuff but the stuff warps no sooner you look at it!. I do
happen to have some 12mm birch ply...

[auscab]

Hi Rob!,

I don't have any Red/White oak for the door R&S, so I thought maybe I could just make some up using offcuts from the 7mm panels I have and glue them to some solid wood.


OK . But then you have doors with a visible edge that's part pine and part Plywood. Sounds ugly. What are you thinking of doing with that ?



Yeah its the Red Oak Panels again!, longs story but found out Forest1 who supply bunnings with the red oak panels have had a couple of bad batches
of the stuff. I took all mine back and went to another bunnings to get some more which doesn't have any issue with the veneer.

That's a good outcome then Sam . Great ! Bad batches and Bunnings are still trying to pass it off hey :(( . Not good .



I have 18mm & 7mm in the Red Oak ply, I would make the rails and stiles out of the 18mm stuff but the stuff warps no sooner you look at it!. I do
happen to have some 12mm birch ply...

Id just buy solid Oak for the door R&S . Half ply and pine is a fluff around . Could get nasty depending on what joinery your using . Like if its dowels and your playing around with twist or knocking things together and there is pressure from the glue which can happen then the ply could split easy.
What is the joinery ?

The movement wouldn't be to bad as long as you let the pine sit around and settle before the final machine to size . Get it close first then come back after a day or two at least . Radiata Pine does do a bit of moving if its taken from a stacked on top of each other situation and left in the open.

I went to a local timber yard a while back and they had a big pile of new Radiata sitting on the floor that looked like it was rubbish to them . About to be thrown out . All long but a bit twisted . Nice sizes like 140 x 45, and 90 x 45 roughly. Structural pine . Just the stuff that would have been sitting on the top of stacks that had warped. I asked and got it for $50 . I was happy as it looked like easy $400 worth to me . And I'll just cut it down for smaller stuff I need .

You got a plan to work to sketched or drawn up somehow to show us ?

[EagerBeaver71]

OK . But then you have doors with a visible edge that's part pine and part Plywood. Sounds ugly. What are you thinking of doing with that ?



I have some Oak edge banding which I was going to use.




Id just buy solid Oak for the door R&S . Half ply and pine is a fluff around . Could get nasty depending on what joinery your using . Like if its dowels and your playing around with twist or knocking things together and there is pressure from the glue which can happen then the ply could split easy.


Would laminating the 7mm veneered plywood to 12mm MDF be a better choice?, I have some 12mm premium berch plywood too, though I'm guessing its not a wise to make rail&stiles from any sort of plywood?.


What is the joinery ?

I'm just using simple dowel joinery for the carcass, tongue & groove for the doors.


You got a plan to work to sketched or drawn up somehow to show us ?

I'm thinking of going frame & panel construction for the sides instead of plywood, what do you think?.

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[auscab]

I have some Oak edge banding which I was going to use.
Ok . It'll work but if it were mine I'd go get some solid for the doors .
Even if its just a shed cabinet.





Would laminating the 7mm veneered plywood to 12mm MDF be a better choice?, I have some 12mm premium berch plywood too, though I'm guessing its not a wise to make rail&stiles from any sort of plywood?.
No, worse IMHO . I am a MDF Hater . It really splits easy. I do sometimes use it for jigs if I pick up free stuff somewhere. Birch would probably be nicer if there is more lamination's .



I'm just using simple dowel joinery for the carcass, tongue & groove for the doors.
Good . If you test and give the dowels room or make sure it has enough grooves to release glue with no great pressure build up and it'll be fine.



I'm thinking of going frame & panel construction for the sides instead of plywood, what do you think?.

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Your using ply so just do a panel and frame look. Assemble a carcase and add the R&S trips as a glue on . This could be over screws pulling the carcase together as well if you like . And you can add in a small mitered moulding to hide the inside ply edge.

All this work though . Me for my shed . Id do anything that's fast for the sides. But those doors Id do solid.

I have a similar cabinet in my shed for tools. Pictured Below . Doors are P&F solid . Sides are chipboard covered with a layer of wet newspaper and glue for effect and the whole thing painted . It was an experiment with a few things. I was playing with paints and mixing my own and wanted to try The old tool box black green look . Old looking with patina. The wet news paper trick over chip board on the sides was something I saw on a rip off faked grandfather clock bough in from the UK. It crinkles up and gives a very old looking texture but has to be painted.

I don't have a pic of sides atm, they look the same as front but plain . No R&S . Doors are Oregon .
Sides on inside are also made to look old stile by trenching 1/2" pine and laminating to the chipboard to give the best 18th Century style shelf adjusting method . Shelves just slide out and g back in at what ever level I like . Shelves are hard wood with a double D Mould to front edge .

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[Mountain Ash]

Hi EB. Bunnings sell some very nice 42 x 19 pine in shorter legths (1.8, 2.4 and 3.0). It comes from NZ, is knot free and very stable. Great for what Rob is suggesting. If you lookup easy shaker style doors on YouTube you should find some handy videos. Process is simply cutting a slot in your stiles that is centred and a smidge thicker than your ply. Rails have same slot cut and tenons on the end that are the width of the slot and as long as the depth of the slot. Very simple, can all be cut on the tablesaw and look great. Hope some of this makes sense. :D

[EagerBeaver71]

Your using ply so just do a panel and frame look. Assemble a carcase and add the R&S trips as a glue on . This could be over screws pulling the carcase together as well if you like . And you can add in a small mitered moulding to hide the inside ply edge.

You mean frame and panel for the sides?:

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But those doors Id do solid.

I think I might do all the frames in pine, and all the panels & drawers in the red oak ply, what do you think?.



I have a similar cabinet in my shed for tools. Pictured Below . Doors are P&F solid . Sides are chipboard covered with a layer of wet newspaper and glue for effect and the whole thing painted .

WOW Lovely work Rob!.

[EagerBeaver71]

Hi EB. Bunnings sell some very nice 42 x 19 pine in shorter legths (1.8, 2.4 and 3.0). It comes from NZ, is knot free and very stable. Great for what Rob is suggesting.

Thanks for the reply Mountain Ash. Do you mean this stuff:

285 x 19mm 2.4m DAR Pine Premium - Bunnings Australia (http://www.bunnings.com.au/285-x-19mm-2-4m-dar-pine-premium_p8401478)

I think the light coloured pine frame contrasted by the red oak paneling would look nice actually. I got a dado stack so can get the tongue & grooves done in no time... :U

[EagerBeaver71]

I grew up surrounded by traditional old English & European furniture so I love the stuff Rob makes, even when its only storage cabinets for the garage.

[auscab]

You mean frame and panel for the sides?:

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Yeah . The sides .
Real Frame and Panel for the doors.

If you were going the traditional old way then Panel and Frame construction carcase uses panels at 16 to 19 thick . Rails and stiles cant be 19 thick as the upper and lower front and back rails to each carcase are M&T into the stiles. So you see stiles more like 30 to 40 mm thick roughly or larger 75 x 75 stuff on big cabinets. The french carved them . In these traditional carcases the top and bottom is dropped in on top of a nailed in cleat or is fitted into a slot on assembly. Fitting to a slot is a pain and your rarely see it on larger stuff nailed in was easier.

Your not going traditional so there's some good ways to make up what you want seeing as you have modern boards that don't expand or contract the same as solid panels .

If you did make up P&F sides the normal solid way . Doweling the top and bottom carcase into the horizontal sides top and bottom is getting a bit silly . It'll work to a point but its not best construction . Its the strong upper and lower front and back rails of old stuff that gives the piece its sideways strength.
Modern Kitchen boxes are screwed through and that's better IMO than a but jointed carcase with weak dowels or biscuits.

So if your making stuff up to what ever design you want then Better to screw through and add the R&S strips over the top . You can create a rebate at the back at the same time to take a nailed on back or what ever , paneled back ?. Cover the front edge with the stuff you have . Its fast and stronger .



I think I might do all the frames in pine, and all the panels & drawers in the red oak ply, what do you think?.





WOW Lovely work Rob!.

[auscab]

Me talking traditional is thinking of the 17 and 18th c stuff . Slowing down and thinking after posting . Lighter weight P&F stuff was done around the 1880s to 1900s . When you see a Cutler desk or similar designs . That's an example of doweled P&F work .

Light weight flimsy taller cupboards were made as well like that . Three ply P&F sides with ply on frame doors Glued to the front of the frame . The taller things were weak and OK for hanging clothes in . The best thing about them was being able to lift them around with one arm just about .

This is an Oak Cutler Desk . The carcase is P&F and all doweled . If you lift the top section off, a bottom carcase is just doweled at the front and back of top and bottom into horizontal pieces you can see going across . It gets all its extra bracing from a good strong back and the front horizontals . Theirs 5 of them each side in each bottom carcase.

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[EagerBeaver71]

If you did make up P&F sides the normal solid way .

You mean like this yeah?:

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[auscab]

Yeah. That’s the normal new way, done with a matched cutter set for a router or spindle moulder . Or a slot cutter and making tenon to match on table saw or some other machined way .

Normal old way is with longer M&T and the rails have a Haunch on the tenons .

[EagerBeaver71]

Normal old way is with longer M&T and the rails have a Haunch on the tenons .

I had to look that one up, interesting stuff, an untrained eye wouldn't know they were originally done like that.

[EagerBeaver71]

This is actually going to save me some money by going all P&F. The plywood is 7mm and the pine will be 19mm.

[auscab]

Yep Good Sam.

You understand what I mean by the screw and glue of the R&S strips on don't you ?

Big time saver .

[EagerBeaver71]

You understand what I mean by the screw and glue of the R&S strips on don't you ?

Nope. Just read through the post, Please explain :U

[auscab]

Screw the carcase together with your 18mm Plywood .
See the red dots.

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Glue on simulated Rail and Stile strips .

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The back strip can overhang to give you a rebate for the back .

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You then glue in a small mitered moulding around the inside of your glued on strips. To hide the Ply edge .
Eight pieces each side of the cabinet.

[EagerBeaver71]

Screw the carcase together with your 18mm Plywood .

Ah now I understand!. I never thought of doing it like that. I might do the tongue and groove method using solid pine and ply panels for this one, I'll definitely remember that method though. Brilliant stuff, Thanks Rob.

- - - Updated - - -

Are both methods as strong as one another?.

[EagerBeaver71]

How old is the screw and glue method?.

[auscab]

This piece is made the same way . Frame and Panel Doors from solid. The sides are glued on Fake ones .
Its flat on the inside. Its sides under the panels are either Ply or Chipboard or solid. I have not had a need to look.
If it was solid it should have moved by now in some way. But it hasn't moved in the years that Ive owned it.
I didn't make it . It was a swap for some work I did.
Its been My Computer desk ever since. Sits in the living room with an office chair left of the TV by 2.4 meters.
I'm sitting here now in as I type this out .
Its an Imported made thing from 20 years back roughly.
Great desk though . I fitted a slide out shelf for the Key board. And spaced the shelves above to suit books .
Space Under is for the Printer and computer Box . When friends come over it all closes up and hides The lot inside.




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[EagerBeaver71]

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Patina's nice on it,

[auscab]

Are both methods as strong as one another?.


I think screws going through sides will be stronger than a doweled box.
It'd take a bit of neglect to prove it and have the doweled version fail though.
Its a cabinet back that gives it resistance to failing as well .
Take a back off something and you have to be very gentle with it.




How old is the screw and glue method?.



There is old versions of it, sort of, on doors and solid stuff. Veneers over solid does similar things sometimes.
Mainly though, what were talking about has worked better since Plywood , Chipboard or even MDF has been around for carcase work.

[EagerBeaver71]

I think screws going through sides will be stronger than a doweled box.

You mean the screws that are under the fake R&S?. Would pocket hole joinery be ok as I'm doing the tongue and groove method?.


It'd take a bit of neglect to prove it and have the doweled version fail though.
Its a cabinet back that gives it resistance to failing as well .
Take a back off something and you have to be very gentle with it.

Speaking of backs, mines 4mm thick, would that be enough using brad nails to secure it?

[auscab]

You mean the screws that are under the fake R&S?.

Yep.



Would pocket hole joinery be ok as I'm doing the tongue and groove method?.

I wouldn't be answering your thread if you mentioned that at the start.
Don't bring it up now :D.

Edit. I'm not into PHJ at all Sam . One of the Worst things Ive seen in Woodwork so far.


Speaking of backs, mines 4mm thick, would that be enough using brad nails to secure it?

Yes.

[EagerBeaver71]

I wouldn't be answering your thread if you mentioned that at the start.
Don't bring it up now :D.

I'm tempted to do a search for pocket hole joinery and Auscab in the forums now! :U

What would you suggest for vertical and horizontal panel joinery if I go with normal none fake F&P sides?, I can only think of dowels...

[EagerBeaver71]

Rob,

I've had a real good think about what you have said and I'm really sold on your screw and glue method. They have 7mm,12mm & 18mm boards in the red oak ply. If I take the 18mm stuff back and buy 12mm then add 7mm R&S after doing the screw up that would
make the board 19mm in thickness around the edge. Would there be any issue going with those thicknesses?.

By the way I already have about 7 boards of 7mm in Red Oak ply

[auscab]

:) Your not going to find me saying much about PHJ Sam .

If there's one good thing about PHJ, its that It can help give beginners a start at putting stuff together.
I know they also will learn the lesson of watching stuff fall apart earlier than better joined stuff.
Well treated and not moved around much and it can be the next persons problem though.






What would you suggest for vertical and horizontal panel joinery?, I can only think of dowels...



The Carcase sides to the top and bottom's ?
Leaving out the good old fashioned best ways.

Dowels , Biscuits , Screws through from the panel side then covered. Or Nails the same, skewed a bit, are all going to work .
The Screws and nails are stronger and faster to build though.

You decide and I look forward to seeing something happen .

[EagerBeaver71]

OR, should I just stick the 7mm on the 18mm?

edit, oops, didn't see your last post!, NO PHJ for me then! hahaha!. Actually I can see your reasoning for this, one being that it leaves an unsightly long hole.

[EagerBeaver71]

I've just done a few sketches so I'll transfer those to the computer and work out the measurements and cut list from there. Stay tuned.:U

[EagerBeaver71]

Hi Rob, Quick question!. I don't want to go out and buy thicker lumber as I want to use up my stock pile. Is it ok to laminate two piece of different plywood, one being 9mm Marine ply, the other 7mm Red Oak veneered ply (the core is popular). Any issue with warping or glue?, I'll be using a vacuum bag and Titebond 2 or 3.

[auscab]

It’ll work .
You probably realise Just clamping in a bag doesn’t mean It’l be flat . Make sure it’s held to something flat as well .

[EagerBeaver71]

Hi Rob, Yet another question I can't find a definitive answer to!. What glue is best for laminating plywood to plywood. I've found plenty who swear by PVA Titebond 2&3 and god knows I have plenty of the stuff myself but what I've found is the water content in it warps the ply somewhat. Then theres
contact cement which I've used before making jigs out of mdf.

Your methods and thoughts much appreciated!. :U

[auscab]

I suppose some may say using the same glue as the ply is made up with but I forget what that stuff is and don't have it .

Id just go with what I have on hand.

In My workshop I just Keep TB 1 and 3 .
Techniglue 2 pac .
Poly Glue.2 types. Fast and slow set. 15 minutes and one hour.
And Good old Hide glue . I have two types . High quality clear looking stuff from the US .
And the good old Pearl Joiners glue From NZ.

So if I were doing what your doing . edit .

Id either go with My TB 1 and just clamp it up if the design meant things could be held straight on assembly .
A lot of stuff is built like that .

Or if it really mattered and couldn't be braced on assembly. Then Poly glue or The 2 pac Techniglue .

Don't think Id be doing Poly in a vacuum bag though . Not if its some big panels .
I have a press and prefer that.

Both ways are time consuming and if I could just do Hand clamps Id do that .

Are you doing the panels ?
What dimensions ?

[Camelot]

When laminating timber it is important to balance what you do, so 7mm + 12mm + 7mm would work providing both the 7mm timbers are of the same wood type (or compliment each other), just putting 7mm to one side will result in the piece either cupping or bowing depending of width and length.

[EagerBeaver71]

Are you doing the panels ?
What dimensions ?

I have 4 panels to do upper and lower parts: (2) 1121x440 , (2) 779x440mm.

I've taken the four 18mm Red Oak ply boards back now as I've found the veneer on the 7mm stuff is alot better. So as I see it, this leaves me with a few options:

1. Glue the 7mm red oak ply to some 12mm marine or birch ply (which I have) to make 19mm boards, then do the screw and glue method (fake 7mm rails and stiles over the top).

2. Glue up 7mm red oak ply to 12mm birch ply and cut into 65mm strips to make real tongue & groove R&S.

3. Buy solid lumber for the rails and stiles and be done with it. It has to be lighter coloured wood than the 7mm panels though. Like this:

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[woodPixel]

So much discussion.

I'll add this to create another for you :)

Consider doing the R+S by hand!

Its super easy. Everyone talks of using machines for all the work, but I'd think using ordinary hand planes would be pretty fast. It certainly saves specialised router bits, or table saw jigs.


I point ye to this video! Rex K shows how some planes are better than universal ones. Part of the video (at ~7'30") shows using a plane to make the rebate, and another that angles the Raised Panel --> SUPER FAST....


https://youtu.be/DVssyHgqsf8?t=459

[EagerBeaver71]

So much discussion.

I'll add this to create another for you :)

Consider doing the R+S by hand!

Its super easy. Everyone talks of using machines for all the work, but I'd think using ordinary hand planes would be pretty fast. It certainly saves specialised router bits, or table saw jigs.


I point ye to this video! Rex K shows how some planes are better than universal ones. Part of the video (at ~7'30") shows using a plane to make the rebate, and another that angles the Raised Panel --> SUPER FAST....


https://youtu.be/DVssyHgqsf8?t=459

Oh dear, analysis paralysis!. So thats how they did it before table saws and dado blades! lol. I want that 300yr old chest in the video.

[woodPixel]

Ah! Yes, Beaverboy, I can add to your hesitation misery.

I forgot to mention, knowing you are a melbournian, that you should consider TimberWood.com.au for your veneered sheetgoods.

They carry about 40 prepressed types, plus can make a zillion more with a bit of notice.

Their quality is outstanding.

[EagerBeaver71]

I forgot to mention, knowing you are a melbournian, that you should consider TimberWood.com.au for your veneered sheetgoods.

I got my birch plywood from them but to be honest I wasn't that keen on the oak veneer, they seem to only be 100mm or less wide leaves,
which look very unnatural and repetitive when book matched...

[EagerBeaver71]

Hi Rob,

Sorry for the analysis paralysis.

I'm down to two options, making real rails and stiles out of plywood for the carcass sides isn't a good idea (not stiff enough).

1. Glue the 7mm red oak ply to some 12mm birch ply (which I have) to make 19mm boards, then do the screw and glue method (fake 7mm rails and stiles over the top).

3. Buy solid lumber for the rails and stiles and be done with it.


Just waiting on a quote from Mathews timber for 10mtrs of oak...

[auscab]

Hi Rob,

Sorry for the analysis paralysis.

No probs Sam . Its reminding me of your clock finishing line of questions . That went on and on :) .
Remind me again , Did you end up finishing it ?




I'm down to two options, making real rails and stiles out of plywood for the carcass sides isn't a good idea (not stiff enough).

Good .


1. Glue the 7mm red oak ply to some 12mm birch ply (which I have) to make 19mm boards, then do the screw and glue method (fake 7mm rails and stiles over the top).
More work . Next option in solid is better.


3. Buy solid lumber for the rails and stiles and be done with it.
Be done with it Sam . Go Traditional and build something nice .


Just waiting on a quote from Mathews timber for 10mtrs of oak...
10 Meters of what size ?
4 x 2.4 x 200 x 25 ? = 9.6 M

[EagerBeaver71]

No probs Sam . Its reminding me of your clock finishing line of questions . That went on and on :) .
Remind me again , Did you end up finishing it ?

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I know I know, few personal issues kept me from continuing with woodworking for a while but I'm all set up again now and really wanted to get on with building cabinets for the garage first. After that, the clock. Then furniture for the house...



Be done with it Sam . Go Traditional and build something nice .

Your right, can't beat old and tried methods, I'll commit myself to doing it that way, even if its with pine R&S.



10 Meters of what size ?
4 x 2.4 x 200 x 25 ? = 9.6 M

I'm going with 19mm x 65mm R&S, the plywood panels are 7mm which I already have.

Just got a quote in for DAR 19mm, sadly haven't got a thicknesser so need them to dress it for me, the rest of the cutting can be done on the tablesaw though.

@7 days to do orders rough sawn

@10 with dressing
Minimum dressing charge $60.00+gst

Us oak 140 x 19 $28.40lm+gst
Euro oak 140 x 19 $31.80lm+gst

Us hard maple 140 x 19 $24.10lm+gst

[EagerBeaver71]

Is it time to buy a thicknesser for the workshop?.

[auscab]

I know what it’s like Sam . I have a lot of unfinished projects that I’ll get back to . Other things more important pop up and have to be tackled first all the time.

What machinery do you have ?
If you have a buzzer then with that and a table saw you could convert 25 mm oak boards yourself to what you need for this job into strips like that . Then just hand planed from there .
For 10 months when I moved here all my machining was done with hand held 240 volt electric tools. Mikita Circular saw and Mikita electric planer . Then hand finished as usual from that . I took 10 months to get 3 phase connected .
I made a big lovely Oak table that way and delivered it to clients . Among other stuff.
It turned out very good . With some real country character to it .

[EagerBeaver71]

What machinery do you have ?

At the moment, I have a cabinet saw, makita saw which I made a jig to attach to an Ozito track (much cheaper and better than the Makita tracksaw setup), Bosch Jigsaw, Makita Router, drills & drill press.

Here's my collection:

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These are the various jigs I've made for the cabinet saw:

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As you can see tools and jigs everywhere!, in need of storage desperately!.