Nicholson Saw File Shortcomings are Over [Archive]

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D.W.

4th April 2022, 04:21 AM

This week, I did two different tasks, but close enough together to be worth thinking about. I used to buy only bahco files other than small files that need to have a fine edge, but have been trying nicholsons here and there as they get more experience making them in mexico. Task 1 was cutting new teeth at 3 per inch in a frame saw blade (1095, not short of hardness in this case, either). Task two was sharpening a W&McP 4 or 4 1/2 point rip saw (nearly the same size teeth).

Drastically different tasks, but the comparison in this case is the W&McP saws are often a touch hard tempered. This saw is.

I'll have to cut teeth in another frame saw blade with the nicholsons, but one nicholson 8" reg taper file will sharpen the W&McP saw at least 9 times.

Here's the US dollar kicker. I went out to see after blowing through three bahco files to cut teeth in the frame saw blade whether or not I could find nicholsons in the same size...

....only to see on the first ebay listing the message "you purchased this listing on _____".

Ooops!! I located the files.

The cost for the bahco files: $71 for 10
The cost for nicholsons: $23.99 for 12

At $2 each, if you go through three files cutting big teeth in a new plate, no big deal. The reality is the cost for the bahcos isn't that big of a deal, either - the frame saw blade if made properly will cut thousands of linear feet of wood. And I will forge the spent files into something useful and perhaps even do so and dump them on etsy - the edge of a file steel knife is better than anything you can find short of white steel or 26c3.

though the comparison isn't great for A/B so far, I prefer the mex nicholson file. I don't do much saw making or restoration at this point - went through that previously and have most of what I want to use, so it becomes a bigger contest at this point to keep files from rusting than it does to save them for the future.

Will report back on the nicholson files after I make another frame saw blade with the nicholsons. But they show very little evidence of use after resharpening the W&McP saw, which is as hard as you'll find for any sawmaker unless you start to include defective saws that are overhardened or undertempered.

Quality of the teeth on the nicholson files and the cleanliness of the blanks is good. Saw files are consumable, so this doesn't need to be perfect and the prior insanity about how perfect file blanks need to be in surface finish before teeth are cut ignores really outcomes when actually using the saws to sharpen (you'll not notice the difference in a saw- you'll only notice if the saw needs to be filed, not that it needs to be filed with a different file).

$2 each shipped for large high quality files - hard to complain about.

D.W.

4th April 2022, 06:56 AM

I should probably warn that this whole thing with nicholson files was bad for a few years at first, and then OK, and now seems to remain fine (better than five years ago? I don't know).

If there are older files still stuck in the distribution chain, they may not be very good.

At the same time, nicholson files were about as much as bahco, but their usefulness here is they weren't a specialty retailer thing in some sizes. They were just retailed at home depot in 6 slim taper and xx slim for $4 and $5 each, respectively - made in USA. They went to mex production and the ended up out of most retailers anyway. Not sure if home depot cares any of them at all, but you get what I mean - the retailers pushed the suppliers to drop prices, the suppliers did and tried to continue to make decent stuff, and then what's on the shelf is captive store brand subpar stuff.

I can't say anything is universal, though, as I bought a big three file set from harbor freight and figured I'd waste them filing metal - especially the shoulders on chisels where the tang meets the main part of a chisel. These cheap double cut coarse files were definitely not meant for steel, but they have held up OK.

More importantly, though, given that you now know that nicholson files are drop shipped in boxes here for $2 each, they shouldn't be that expensive there, either. If they're $7-$10 each, I wouldn't chance it yet.

Bushmiller

4th April 2022, 09:44 AM

D.W.

My very subjective impression for some time was that modern Nicholsons were worthless. A new file I bought from the local hardware store would not make an impression on saw steel straight out of the packet and that disastrous experience has prejudiced my perspective for some time. NOS Nicholsons were wonderful. Having said that I don't really know how old they are/were, but not made in Mexico for sure.

My further impression is that file quality is less reliable in the smaller sections (4" - 6" particularly in the slimmer tapers where the corners become all important): Perhaps that is down to the degree of precision in the tooling that is used in the manufacture as well as the hardening and tempering processes.

Your file being 8" regular taper is up at the largest end of the spectrum and maybe more forgiving. At $2 a pop I guess you can afford to give them a try. Certainly cutting in large teeth from a plain plate is exacting for any file and your file has stood up well to the task. It would be very interesting to see how the smaller, slimmer files behave.

Regards
Paul

chambezio

4th April 2022, 11:11 AM

After Fence Furniture did that big Exposé some years ago I hunted on Ebay for NOS Wiltshire Saw Files. I had used them when I first started work to tickle up my D8 Disstons. They were good but as time went on you would be lucky to get just one filing out of one. They were too soft. Then as time went on it was very hard to get a descent file of any brand.

Any way about a month ago I decided that my saw collection needed a good sharpen. I had actually forgot about 2 boxes of Wiltshires. One box was extra slim and the other was larger. I got quite a shock to sharpen 3 saws with the one file!! I don't have any idea of how old both boxes of files are. I do know one thing I won't be sharing them with anyone.....they're mine....all mine (Hidious nutty professor laugh.)

What was the outcome of Brett Fence Furniture's work he put into finding who was selling descent Files
I have 2 dovetails and one tennon saw to make using the material bought as a group buy. For them I will be using some very nice 100mm long slim taper from Jewelers Supplies I found these really good on other filing jobs but haven't as yet tried them on a saw

Bushmiller

4th April 2022, 11:24 AM

D.W.

4th April 2022, 11:27 AM

D.W.

4th April 2022, 11:31 AM

I didn't manage to cut an entire resaw blade tonight, but I did have the chance to file enough to exhaust one of the 8" regular taper nicholson files. The amount that it will cut in terms of new tooth volume and the life of the edges is just about identical to the 8" regular taper bahco.

I guess overall I like them both about the same, but the corners are a little sharper on the nicholson which means they'll work with a wider range of teeth.

The limitation for using such a large file on more rip saws (since the corner isn't that fat) is probably more related to the size of the file teeth - the finish is a little less good, but I can't tell any speed difference with a sharpened saw.

I'll yield to the prior comment about perhaps this being an even contest with bigger files. I have so many smaller files that I will never use them all before we get a few humid days and they rust (and this being in a dry part of my house, not the garage. I wouldn't dream of storing saw files in the garage).

Bushmiller

4th April 2022, 11:54 AM

This is just my perception of what was going on - it was an effort to get liogier to make files and convince people to buy them, ultimately at what would've been a higher price, and after much badgering, I did get an admission that there would be some remuneration if that occurred.

I'm guessing at the outcome here - liogier wasn't able to make files at a cost that would've moved the needle for anyone, or they decided at the cost that they'd have been able to sell files, it wasn't worth their time.

When FenceFurniture commenced his Group Buy about ten years ago I bought some round chainsaw files at the same time. They were no better and no worse than any other chainsaw file. What I did take from visiting their site at the time was they were not really that fussed about file: It was not their core business, which as we all know is hand stitched rasps: very good rasps too. Today files are not listed on their website. It make me wonder whether they even made them at all.

Tome Fetiera, the well-established Portuguese company (TOME FETEIRA (https://www.tomefeteira.com/index.html)) make a huge range and for other people to brand themselves, including Bahco I believe. Did they make files for Liogier too? I don't know.

Regards
Paul

D.W.

4th April 2022, 12:25 PM

I think tome feteira and bahco are made in different places. Tf aren't retailed here, but someone was selling them by the dozen years ago on Ebay along with old stock k&f and getting a bunch for both.

The metallurgy of files is pretty simple. If they're made well, it'd be hard for one brand to better another by much. The problem is when they're mediocre, they can be differentiated easily cutting spring temper. The liogier idea didn't have much upside because file steel alloys can't vary that much. And the smaller Portugal files were only about $5 each here.

Bahcos parent is in the USA, so at least those have always been easy to get drop shipped reasonable from Williams tool.

D.W.

5th April 2022, 12:04 AM

Follow up comment on the difference between a good/mediocre file and a great one.

Saw files end up with a lot of pressure on a very small contact point. Two things can improve that, other than light pressure - adding more teeth to the file or cutting bigger teeth on a saw. Kind of hard to adjust the latter and the first slows a file down and makes it cut slower when it starts to dull.

All of the files I've ever smashed into a knife and re-heat treated are practically the same steel. They're some kind of surplus carbon relatively plain steel - I'm guessing around 1.2% carbon, even on the cheap indian files. Why? When you heat treat them and thermally cycle them, they don't ever get to really fine grain like you'll see in 1095 or 1084 snapped samples. The thing that makes the grain look coarse isn't coarse grain - it's a significant number of iron carbides.

I have snapped samples of 26c3 and been disappointed because it doesn't look as fine as O1 only to find that it takes a finer edge and has more toughness than O1 even at a higher hardness. 26c3 is 1.25% carbon steel with a small amount of hardenability additives, but nothing complicated. It sparks and feels and hardens the same as a good file.

Sometimes you'll read that files are made of inferior steel now - I doubt it. But it could be true that they're not hardened to the same level because it's easier to stay away from chippy teeth by going a little soft.

The other side of the equation is the pressure on the teeth means that they need to have only a little toughness (you definitely don't want them to roll and stay in place - file stops working immediately in that case), but they need to have as much strength as possible. And they need to be fine grained so that the fine tip stays as long as possible.

That eliminates the ability to make a good file out of complex steels with big non-iron carbides or to try to use really tough steels with fine grain but lower carbon (lack of hardness, lack of strength).

The difference between a great file and a mediocre one, assuming evenly cut teeth, is a couple of points of hardness. The closer you get to the top of the hardness range for a steel, the bigger risk you take of tipping over the top and having very high strength teeth that are brittle, though.

And some of the better old files that I've gotten will have batches where the files actually aren't very good because they're undertempered. I'm whizzing through some large nicholson bastid files NOS, and they're harder than one ones, but they don't last any longer because in heavy use the teeth are just a hair away from being tempered enough. Whereas a more mediocre file just wears by losing its initial edge through wear and pressure, the NOS nicholson flat files in this case develop tiny chips at the edges of the teeth and lose their very apex and then settle in. Kind of a bummer, but I bought them thinking I'd just use them and anneal/cut/grind them to make other things

One of the problems with the early mex files is they had interruptions in teeth - a different problem, because the first high tooth after an interruption will be broken off and as you go down the line of teeth, each is quickly introduced to working by itself and they all shear off in relatively little time unless you're not filing something that hard.

Bahcos definitely aren't as hard as some of the older files that I've had, either, but they've always worn "honest" - predictably and never early edge chipping from being overhard.

Even the mex nicholsons (the early ones) are fine for me for resharpening. I joint teeth nearly never after the initial line is established and I doubt historically many people did stuff like that, either. With some skill, the teeth will stay even height for a very long time without even a very light jointing. It's cutting teeth and rehabbing old saws where a great file differentiates itself from a good one.

Point of this being, most people are trying to learn to sharpen saws, and they're taking advice on overspending on specific files out of what's fanaticism when the only thing being done is sharpening.

There are third world files that won't be suitable for sharpening, though. As big of a failure as some of those have been (even simonds intl files that I've received from sellers who said they were selling NOS simonds files - they arrive and they're not, they're just simonds intl), none have proven to be bad steel. They're just exceptionally poorly cut.

D.W.

5th April 2022, 05:09 AM

finished teeth with plate 3. I figured since I accidentally grabbed an old 8" USA nos heavy taper file (slightly bigger than regular taper, but edge twice as fat and far more durable), I would compare a few files and make honest revisions to my comments above:

1) I tried grobet USA and simonds intl files to start teeth because that blows out files. A good file will do a bunch of teeth, but the edge still gets blown out fast. These files were totally unusable, with teeth run off of them quickly. Strangely enough, the best file I've ever used for this of any brand was an over hard very sharp cornered chinese file. I still have it. I have no clue what it is - it's three sided but not tapered and I have a job for it with guitars, so it's never out for the job. It would not cut fast if I did and its qualities may be due to its odd teeth -maybe they're underheight and strong

But conclusion of these first two are cases where I got boxes of files from unscrupulous sellers who were vague and implied that they were not foreign files. Both grobetUSA and simonds intl of the time frame that mine came from are unusuable. Even the sides are crap. That said, I could still resharpen a saw with grobet usa, but it would be miserable. The teeth are poorly formed on the simonds intl file, so it would only sharpen a soft saw. Terrible.

2) Nicholson mex - a decent file. I wouldn't pay bahco price for it now that I've had a little more hand time. It lasts about like the bahco for cutting teeth but I'm using big files and I think they're too big for .032 plate -so it's hard on them. Still a good file, but see comments below about american nicholson. I could easily have only these files both to retooth saws and file even though they're not quite as accurately toothed as the two below. Why? They're not as nice to use, but they're $2 each. I think they will last or nearly last with bahco and in hard tooth cutting work, the feel difference is not really durability outcome vs. USA nicholson. I would guess USA nicholson will do with 3 files in tooth cutting what 5 mex files do, but the corners seem to hold up better so it feels a lot better.

Mex nicholsons are $2 each in packs of 12 here and no clue on the USA files. I got a box of 12 heavy taper USA nicholsons long ago for $25 I think purely out of the fact that most people don't have a 2TPI-ish saw to use them. I do.

3) bahco - for sharpening, I'll call it even with the USA nicholson. I sharpen often and little at a time when I do sharpen. If you're working by hand resawing or ripping, a resharpen of the teeth is 3-5 minutes max, including getting the boards out. Setting is relatively seldom, and you can feel it coming. What's often? Every project where I use 50 board feet or so of lumber, I will sharpen a rip saw. Any decent file will do this ten times. Taking away the tooth cutting and the perfectly even teeth on 6 regular or 7 slim taper size bahco (I used one to finish the teeth after re-leveling here) are like silk. They really are like a silky smooth feel. That means that there are no teeth leaving early and nothing will break your rhythm filing. Rhythm is important for routine sharpening because it means doing the same thing in each tooth and no uneven tooth lines or uneven rake (despite not using a guide).

4) USA older nicholson 8" heavy taper file. Enormous fat files with a strong edge. Lasted longer and smoother than the mex files - but not exactly the same files. Sides lasted a little longer, too. The teeth aren't any more accurate than the bahcos and maybe not as accurate but the edge lasts longer. Just an example of good execution in heat treatment.

That's the files in order. I think that's a little harder to go by for you guys because if someone is dumping nicholson files for $24 (unlimited quantity) for a dozen, I'm less inclined to seek out the silky resharpening feel of the bahcos and they do have narrower edges (so I have to write on my saw plates now what I used to sharpen to avoid wasting time with that).

Conclusion is the same in value, I guess, but I do after putting another hour of hand time on the files or a little more notice enough quality difference to make mention of it. It's just not a $2 to $8 gap like the price is.

D.W.

9th April 2022, 10:12 PM

Update, I bought three dozen more files from the same seller. 8 reg taper, 7 slim and 4 x slim.

For the price, the heavier files are still fine.

The 4 x slim files, however, are a disappointment compared to 5 xx slim files that I've gotten in the past that are carded but also mex made. For the price, can I get my money's worth using them to sharpen? Yes.

But the accuracy in making becomes a problem in the smaller files with edges that aren't consistent from file to file and some warping.

Fortunately, small saws need relatively infrequent filing compared to large rip saws.

Cgcc

12th April 2022, 08:34 PM

woodPixel

12th April 2022, 09:22 PM

DW, would you post the eBay link you've been buying from?

D.W.

12th April 2022, 10:28 PM

DW, would you post the eBay link you've been buying from?

BOX OF 12 NICHOLSON 4" EXTRA SLIM TAPER FILES 14547M DOZEN CRESCENT APEX TOOL | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/114591653072)

4x slims

BOX OF 12 NICHOLSON 8" REGULAR TAPER FILES 13875M DOZEN CRESCENT APEX TOOL LOT 37103162595 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/114464928937)

8 reg. taper

7 slim

NICHOLSON 7" SLIM TAPER FILES 14255M BOX OF 12 CRESCENT APEX TOOL CO LOT DOZEN | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/115200056016)

The 7s are meh, the 8 are decent maybe just because size makes up for any inaccuracy. The 4x I won't order again- but I'll get $19 out of them one way or another, even if it's just to use them to start teeth later on something else to save the corners of a better file.

If shipping is a lot, I think this becomes a neutral proposition vs. a bahco that costs twice as much here - at least for some things.

D.W.

12th April 2022, 10:39 PM

Hi David

I don't have enough saw sharpening experience to contribute much.

I thought I would ask, though, what your view is on the Paul Sellers tip on using a junior hacksaw to extend the life of your files (ie, to cut into the gullet and save the wear on the corners)?

To be frank I did this once and it added so much time to the process (it's not the sawing time, but on smaller teeth, carefully locating the blade into successive teeth). By the end I was thinking I'd happily pay a few bucks per sharpen to avoid it. It more seemed to be useful if you didn't have good and ready access to saw files (probably an Australian problem in particular where small files will generally be online and slow).

I just tracked down the video of this. I don't really see the point for practical purposes as two file strokes is about what it takes to resharpen a saw. A couple of things come to mind:
* if I am toothing a new saw, I'd rather do the first part of the tooth on a bigger saw with a smaller file- the corners last better than bigger files and you have the right shape.
* if you're resharpening saws and trying to make it less work, then keeping track of the file used - especially since one file will do a bunch of resharpening - will save time. There shouldn't be a case where the same size file has pressure on the gullets because the file fits the tooth right
* if you're doing heavy tooth work, you can always bias pressure on the back of the next tooth and cut more with pressure on the flat side than the corner
* resharpening saws is more like resharpening tools once you have decent teeth -those teeth were level and could've been filed in the time that paul was cutting into the gullets - the actual time toothing a rip saw is probably something like 3 minutes. When refreshing teeth, we're more like a robot - two strokes or so, by feel so that too much thinking doesn't cause us to change what we're doing, slow down, etc.

Anything that adds time or complexity to hand work perpetuates the myth that you can't work entirely by hand and make anything. I think Paul likes to use videos like this as a draw, though. There's a something for nothing aspect to it - as if it's saving something. He gives the persuasive argument, but it wouldn't hold up well against a clock, and I couldn't buy the saw and the blades and ever make it pan out economically.

woodPixel

13th April 2022, 01:41 AM

Do you reckon they use CBN wheels in the factory?

Or are the teeth punched out?

D.W.

13th April 2022, 02:12 AM

Do you reckon they use CBN wheels in the factory?

Or are the teeth punched out?

I'm sure...or very very close to it that they are punched. On cheaper saws, it looks like they have a punch and set done at once - one would hope that's the case as badly as it's done.

i've contemplated making a manual punch as steel is a funny thing - it resists a punch and then just suddenly gives up cleanly if it's supported, but the number of saws that I'm looking to make just wouldn't justify experimenting to see how much relief would be needed between the punch and the opposing part of the punch ("socket"?) to get a clean break.

foley machines were all the rage here a few years ago, but I doubt many people who got them have punched many plates with them unless they were doing so for pay.

At any rate, though, for small teeth, a slightly longer file with a sharp corner puts teeth in a dovetail saw very quickly. The sharper the corner is, the easier it is to nail spacing, but it's never going to be easy to do a perfect job (and a perfect job isn't required). For something like larger crosscut and rip saws, though, a punch would be nice.

One of the users on a US forum years ago (now deceased) had made an interest eccentric setup so that a pull of the handle on his shop made puncher could impart very short motion and a whole lot of force without much effort.

woodPixel

13th April 2022, 02:40 AM

I was vaguely thinking that in car repair I saw these hand held devices that were sort of like nibblers.

A mark, or marks, are made and this thing chomps out a bite like a kids paper punch.

Different jaws are added to add creases, folds, kinks and chew out various shapes.

A set of Vees would be in the kit so one could do rolled edge that neatly meet...

I'll see if I can find the name of these things.

510085 510086

D.W.

13th April 2022, 02:56 AM

If a nibbler with an anvil could be found, one with a depth set and a triangular profile, it'd be pretty useful here. But it might be too specialized.

I considered trying to make one that was sprung so that it could be compact and hit with a hammer to punch the tooth, remembering my youth working for a carpet guy and just how well those manually hammered staplers can work, but it's always led back to my idea for woodworking in general - if it takes more time to make the tool to make tools and then make tools than it does to just....make the tools freehand, then I'm out. The freehand thing works everywhere even though it's not that popular to say on the forum that the nuance in freehanding stuff is inviting and ultimately you can sometimes get a better result with it.

When filing new saws, you can just go through lots of files, though, I guess. I don't mind making saws, but I don't like it like making chisels, planes or guitars.

Bushmiller

13th April 2022, 08:40 AM

At any rate, though, for small teeth, a slightly longer file with a sharp corner puts teeth in a dovetail saw very quickly. The sharper the corner is, the easier it is to nail spacing, but it's never going to be easy to do a perfect job (and a perfect job isn't required). For something like larger crosscut and rip saws, though, a punch would be nice.

D.W.

Small saws such as backsaws are relatively easy to file teeth into primarily because of the thinner plate, but also the smaller teeth (and the fact there might be only 10" of plate for example). Providing smooth gentle strokes are used a halfway reasonable file will last well and it may only take three to five strokes to form each tooth. Full size handsaws are a different kettle of fish. I have used two files on a single saw to form coarse rip teeth. Not very much fun at all. Just out of interest, this is how Disston used to do it: This is on a logging crosscut:

HD Stock Video Footage - Operations inside Henry Disston and Sons saw manufacturing plant in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063730_Cast-Steel-Factory_workers-working_sheets-roll-on-panel_Henry-Disston-and-Sons)

Video quality is diabolical, but you can get the drift. Punching occurs at the 14 second mark.

Regards
Paul

IanW

13th April 2022, 10:49 AM

The Sellers technique isn't original, I think he got it from someone else, but in any case, it's really only useful for making the inital marks when setting out new teeth on a raw plate, I can't see any advantage whatsoever with using a hacksaw on existing teeth! I find even 'junior' hacksaw blades to be too coarse on fine plate - a fine file like a 4-cut needle file is better for marking out your tooth spacing imo.

I've seen a Foley toother demonstrated, the teeth it made were nice & even, but the tooth-line didn't come out straight & the saw plate assumed a pronounced curveto one side. I'm not sure how that was fixed, it was shuffled aside "for later attention". The owner hadn't had the machine long & was still learning the ropes so I presume it was due to user error more than an inherent property of the machine. In any case, they are not a simple answer to toothing a new saw or re-toothing for us amateurs. Apart from the cost, just getting your hands on one, plus all the necessary spacing bars would be a major problem here. I'm sure someone with a bit of ingenuity could adapt a nibbling tool for the job, but it wouldn't be easy to devise a spacing mechanism to keep them even & at the right pitch. For the average backyard saw sharpener I doubt the effort would be worth it, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong..

For most of us, the most practical way to make new teeth is to just file them in. It is hard on files, and as an example, on average I would use up a file cutting a set of teeth at 12tpi on a 10 inch saw. That's using a current file from Bahco, I still have a few NOS Wiltshires & Nicholsons that can do much better, but I've pretty much run out of sizes suitable for 12tpi (one of the most common pitches I deal with). I haven't found a Nicholson made in the last 12 years that can cut even half a saw's worth of new teeth. The initial stroke or two, when the full cutting force is taken by the corner of the file is what does them in. Most files now seem to be too brittle & start shedding teeth rather than wearing evenly. This creates one heck of a problem when cutting in new teeth because the file catches or skips & it's difficult to impossible to maintain consistency. It's tempting to persevere & try to get the maximum life out of the file, but especially for the inexperienced, it's a bad idea as you'll end up with a very mixed herd of "cows & calves".

For small teeth (i.e. 15tpi or more), my choice is Grobet needle files. The ones we get here are made in Vallorbe in Switzerland according to the stamp on the handle & so far have maintained a very high quality. I can usually cut in a full set of teeth on a 9 inch 15tpi dovetail saw with one corner in 15 or 20 thou plate with a 160mm #4 cut file. Needle files are measured by total length & half of it is handle, so the actual file is only about 75mm long & the first 5mm of the point is very fine & of little use tor a saw sharpener other than piercing your left index finger! For sharpening a 6-cut is probably better, it will leave a better surface & still cut quickly. Needle files are all double-cut, so one stroke removes a lot of metal, much more than the fine teeth would imply if you are not familiar with them. But perhaps the best thing of all about the Grobets is their corner consistency - it is spot-on corner after corner & file after file.

Our "great file test" (one of the 'stickies' at the top of this page) is getting rather dated & should probably be taken down, but file quality seems to be an ongoing issue in this neck of the woods. Apart from files being too soft or too brittle (the latter is far & away the more common defect in my experience), the biggest bugbear is the inconsistency of the corner radii, as has already been mentioned. The smaller the teeth, the more trouble it causes because the file won't sit neatly & readily in the gullet so I have to concentrate very hard to maintain even rake angles when sharpening 'freehand'. And it's not just inconsistency between files, I've had some where no two corners on one file are close to the same! The Bahcos I've been buying the last few years are pretty good in that respect but I have struck an occasional outlier...

Cheers,

D.W.

14th April 2022, 02:25 AM

Actually, double cut files are a good side point. I have a half dozen somewhere that I got from a listing that didn't specify them correctly - where that somewhere is right now, though, I don't know.

I mentioned a near magical overly hard chinese file that I have with mediocre teeth but sharp corners - it reminds me a little bit of double cut files, but I won't go into why. I used the chinese file to start a whole bunch of saws, but now in a nonsensical bit of logic, I don't want to use it because I don't want to waste it. I'm fairly sure I mentioned now that I transferred it to my guitar fretting bag so that I can use on frets for bound guitars. Won't go there either, but anyone who has refretted bound necks will have an idea.

That said, I once years ago had a straw tempered disston 7 saw. cross cut - no clue what was wrong, it was just a regular #7 with a lot of wear on the crosscut teeth because nobody was able to ever sharpen it.

George wilson mentioned at the time that double cut teeth will handle hard steel better than single (they do, even if the teeth are the same hardness) - and those errant simonds double cut files were just able to sharpen the CC saw teeth, but it consumed two files. Learning experience. I'm sure I threw the saw plate away for lack of experience hardening and tempering back then.

As far as the foley toothers, that's one of the things brought up here since foleys are everywhere. Some of them were probably used, but it seems like foley has a little bit of shop smith in their past - as in, they were able to convince a lot of people that if you just buy some of their setups, you'd have a business. Many of the toothers have had their carrier bars scattered around with not much use to anything, but neglect. And the result that people who get them find is that they will distort a plate and leave it waved. It's very easy to hammer that out of a saw, but it's like anything else - you want to do only exactly what's needed and there can be a learning curve before one learns what little is needed vs. what lots of other potentially permanently damaging things can occur with too much hammering creating opposing tensions and the unfavorable surprise bend it a little bit and "spring!", the saw flops into another equilibrium point that's not straight.

I would guess that tensioning or at least final straightening never occurred on factory saws until after the teeth were cut. For someone in a saw shop doing the same thing every day, the hammering would've probably taken about 15-30 seconds per saw. I have straightened many, but created the snap flop situation mentioned above in a saw that was lacking tension (and had good luck and managed to properly re- tension one that I ground the outside surface off of leading to a saw that like floppy plastic. Still have the one that was ruined to remind me sometimes you can't fix everything.

Smooth faced hammer and smooth hardened anvil is needed to do this neatly and not mark the saw up in a permanent way.

5 years from now when I tooth another big saw that I never expected to tooth, I'll see if I can remember to use one of those old double cut files to cut the first 1/3rd of the teeth. and anyone else who has some unloved double cut files, if you have a really hard saw plate or anything else that destroys single cut files but just barely, bust out the double cuts. If something is truly untempered, though, it will destroy everything that touches it, just as my straw temper disston 7 destroyed two double cut files just to touch up the teeth.

until then, i'm firmly in the camp of if one files teeth into a new plate once a quarter or once a half decade, it's still easier to just keep thing simple and use files.

woodPixel

14th April 2022, 02:10 PM

My curiosity grabbed again and the "how" of making a file led me down an interesting rabbit hole.

This geezer tells a good story:

https://youtu.be/UTXlzcmkQf0

There are a few in the series.

EDI - I thought to add this one. Its of ancient techniques without steel, but it does answer a lot of basic questions....

https://youtu.be/SOw9WqMOHjA

Simplicity

14th April 2022, 04:32 PM

My curiosity grabbed again and the "how" of making a file led me down an interesting rabbit hole.

This geezer tells a good story:

https://youtu.be/UTXlzcmkQf0

There are a few in the series.

That Geezer has an amazing story to tell.
Plus a Tool collection that would end up with most of us in the Divorce courts.

It’s worth hunting out other videos on him.

Cheers Matt.

D.W.

16th April 2022, 01:15 AM

D.W.

Small saws such as backsaws are relatively easy to file teeth into primarily because of the thinner plate, but also the smaller teeth (and the fact there might be only 10" of plate for example). Providing smooth gentle strokes are used a halfway reasonable file will last well and it may only take three to five strokes to form each tooth. Full size handsaws are a different kettle of fish. I have used two files on a single saw to form coarse rip teeth. Not very much fun at all. Just out of interest, this is how Disston used to do it: This is on a logging crosscut:

HD Stock Video Footage - Operations inside Henry Disston and Sons saw manufacturing plant in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. (https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063730_Cast-Steel-Factory_workers-working_sheets-roll-on-panel_Henry-Disston-and-Sons)

Video quality is diabolical, but you can get the drift. Punching occurs at the 14 second mark.

Regards
Paul

This is what relatively recent larger japanese resharpenable log saws look like production wise, though they're pulled so the whole tension and flatness is a little different. They're still hammered, and the large teeth are punched, but they won't bunch up on themselves as they're pulled.

I was thinking more along the lines of smaller saws at a factory, though - it's hard to say much about small teeth from a boutique maker now as even a foley would be good enough for saw production. George Wilson mentioned making the saws at Wmsbg and I can't remember the name of the saw toother that they had, but it was something like "donkey" or some other such thing, maybe less of a contraption than a foley and they made gobs of saws for internal use.

But full production, who knows. They may have something that stamps teeth out far more than one at a time, or maybe not, or much better dies that support the plate better.

The log saws with deep gullets, even the japanese, definitely punched. I can't and wouldn't be able to easily find the video that I can recall, but think a small four man saw shop making saws before they became popular with westerners and overhyped. Straightforward.

Youtube is so filled with idiots now getting in the way of decent content that I can't wade through all of the dummy content creators who want to show everyone a maebiki or madonoko or whatever else and pretend they're an expert to find the guys who actually did something to make or use the saws professionally....too bad youtube's algorithm seems to prefer both the dumb video makers and the moths that are attracted to their light bulbs. I guess that's the "wranglerstar" effect.

I've repeatedly asked youtube to exclude all videos from several creators, including him, but yet again, one of his videos shows up in my search results. He's an expert at something, but certainly not the topical material.

Thinking further about saws now, though - I can't think of any kind of older grinding wheel that would've stood up to production in a crisp shape unless teeth were cut in unhardened material, but hardening a plate with the teeth already on it would be a nightmare. Would've had to have been some type of die setup for all but the smallest of teeth.

Could be done with laser now or something else like that, but I've had more than one CNC item that appears to have been laser cut and that has an obnoxiously hard oxide layer even on mild steel - one that can destroy any file other than diamond files. The slot on the lie nielsen cap iron comes to mind - it's not chrome plated, but whatever the residue is around the slot feels like it. The only reason one would file one of those is to have two cap irons - one with the slot filed to move down the adjuster pawl a little bit so that a LN plane can work properly with both stanley thickness irons and regular LN irons. But it takes a grinding tool of some sort to get past the very hard surface and then it's just mild steel under. If that occurred on a saw plate, it'd be a huge nuisance to remove.