Bandsaw wheel -- is there supposed to be this much slop?

[sallz0r]

Hi everyone,

I got a second hand bandsaw a few years ago, and haven't used it very much because of a few issues -- one being the amount the top wheel wobbles, which seems to cause the blade to not track straight.

When I dug into it, I found that the bearings (both front and back) inside the top wheel aren't snug -- in fact, they're incredibly sloppy inside there, and wobble around a fair bit. I've tried to shim them and anything I can think of, but it's too thin a gap, so haven't been able to figure out any effective way to do it. I've posted a video below, showing how much the wheel wobbles (around the bearing) when it's on the bandsaw.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOCVSqAqx99FONq6-oVBK80hfhKwe-iCasQFCDBlrJ5pIXygRzqnoNIcpHkhwhTDw?key=dWoxYVZHVGpqNWdjZm5ZVEg0OGxlZXNLcTFLaDN3qqq)

(it looks like that link may not work? I uploaded it on youtube: Bandsaw wobble :( - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypbRAmWQVTo&feature=youtu.be) )

(In comparison, the bottom wheel is completely solid, no movement whatsoever).

Before I start doing crazy things to try and make sure the bearing is a firm fit, I thought I'd ask on here, in case someone can shed some light, because I had the horrible thought that maybe, for some reason, this is *supposed* to be like that, and my issues are something else entirely. So my two questions:

1) Is the bearing supposed to be firm fit inside the wheel, and not have any play in it?

2) Assuming (1) is "yes", does anyone have any suggestions or ideas on how to repair this?

Thanks in advance!
Mikey

[Chris Parks]

Loctite make a product that will take up that space between the bearing and wheel bore and any bearing or engineering supplier will have it. I doubt if the average hardware or Bunnings would have it.

[yhprum]

You could try the loctite or even try some epoxy like araldite.
worst case find a machinist to fit a sleeve to bring it back to spec.
I know you tried shimming, but you could cut up a beer or soda can for some shim stock as it’s pretty thin. Good luck!

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Yeah, that is a problem and it needs addressing before you can use the BS to it's full capability.

I've seen (& used) BS's with worse slop and they were usable, but I wouldn't rely on them for any precision work.

I'd be inclined to take the upper wheel to someone capable who can either braze/weld in some fill then turn out to the correct size for new bearings or at the least machine out the hole to either take slightly larger OD bearings or a sleeve of appropriate size. Which way to go is probably best discussed with the person tasked with the job.

More expensive than a 'patch' but it should eliminate that particular problem. (Unless the job is botched, but that's true for any repair. :rolleyes:)

[sallz0r]

Awesome, thanks for the ideas. I'll have a search for some kind of epoxy/Loctite product, see if I can use that.

I got in touch with some machinists today, quotes were around $400 to fix it. 😳😳 So I might try an "easy" option first 😆

[Tom trees]

I would take the wheel off and look at a few things.
Say your wheel is needing reboring, you might be able to spot the damage and perhaps be able to sort with
some of that bore compound or even a coke can apparently!


I'm making bearing spacers and not buying OEM for my machine,
and been documenting this recently, actually still doing so, as it took me a while to get things to a better tolerance
using some tips from Jack Forsberg's (Jack English machines) videos on bandsaw wheel bores on the Poitras machine.
a few to watch on that. definitely required watching! :wink:

What you want to see is the bearings sitting proud of the shaft, so that the retaining washer is pressing against the pair of bearings, maybe not so tight as the first photo with the calipers and washer, (jumbled pictures of various folders)
gradually testing things and getting these spacers drilled out to 30mm accurately
is proving to be quite the challenge.

If this doesn't work for me, then I may likely consider making a two part spacer like Jacks machine,
or infact even looking into seeking one solid bearing, i.e the whole width of the wheel,
Not sure if you can match ID&OD's but just for example
511511
or just another type the same OD and ID but slimmer ones are available, should three bearings fit?
I have some the same OD bearings which are slimline,(whatever that spec is called) but the bore is larger,
so I'm supposing they do make them in all sizes of standard bearings like for a bandwheel.

Just incase the bearing compound may not work, it may do with above solutions.

But my bore seems solid now, thanks to Jack's videos seems tolerable.
I tested this play of the shaft hand (not dynamically in use yet)
The slop which was present originally and not all that evident whilst on the machine, when handled upon disassembly
of the wheel, was very noticeable compared.
Now I have little movement when tested, and eager to see if the better tolerances makes a slight difference again.

No need for pullers if you need press the shaft off, some bits of wood and sockets or whathaveyou nuts or even timber blocks,
(taking care of the face and thread!)
Usually good practice to buy new bearings, I'd take care of the old ones for sure, you might wanna hold onto them for fitting spacers.
511510

Seems a good bit of play between washer ans spring clip/cir clip, sorry no original photo of shaft not sitting proud and retaining washer loose.
511501511502

A whole load of metalwork later, just mocking up underneath,
as I made a whole load of these spacers that didn't go so well boring them out.
511503511504511505

and I'm nearly there, just incase I need make another outer race spacer I want to be prepared.
Seems good enough to test the machine, but rather get things down to better tolerances.
IIRC Jack or maybe others suggested that you don't want this fit too tight, so a bit of a grey area as to how wide the spacer should be....
I want to be sure where I'm at as,0.10mm is noticeable.
511499511498511500


Hope that helps, I have many recent posts about this, although more concentrated towards drilling perfect holes
making an indexing jig for the pillar drill, and other shenanigans.

Only recently this has come up from all the years I've been reading, and surprised to see two Centauro's with the issue, (of all things...)
One or two I've spotted on the net, one of which was from use with a PTO which isn't surprising in those two pics below, but also the other one appears the same, which I recently spotted on the bay, which seems neglectful to me.
Whether that's problems with initial setup, the use and maintenance of thereafter, should tire wear be making one do questionable practices,
or the design, or infact a mix of all the above.
That grey area of spacer tolerances may well apply here, should this design be specifically preferable for those who are sticklers, engineers and/or factory technicians, and not folks who regard the machine as just another tool which ultimately has a lifespan.
511506511507511508
along with this other machine on the woodhaven2, whether neglectful use or not I'm uncertain of,
I guess a smaller bearing on this lighter machine might not be as apparent?
TheWoodHaven2 • View topic - bandsaw (http://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7131&p=117458&hilit=centauro#p117458)

I spent some time searching for various designs, collecting all the Italian machines and others like Wadkins
but hard to find out from a keyboard, although you can can get a diamond in the rough with some articles like so
511509

Hope that helps or is at least a start, I've likely left stuff out.
Hope all isn't too bad, or at least home shop fixable.

All the best

Tom

[sallz0r]

Thanks Tom, for the detailed reply! I'm going through the links you sent, and some of the Youtube videos now (Jack English). I'll check a few of those extra things, but at this stage I'm thinking the retaining compound is going to be the best bet. I've tried shimming it before, and it's not enough of a gap to fit an aluminium can strip (on both sides, I wouldn't want to do only one and have it off-center) , so I'm hoping that it's a small enough gap that compound will help.

[Tom trees]

That sounds like good news if you cannot fit a coke can there,
I have no experience in this department, but Jack has info on that.

I am just questioning why the wear happened in the first place, and whether the spacer
if something similar to the Centauro design for instance, might be partially to blame.
I like many view the top wheel to have the ultimate say on the machine, not guidepost or whatever,
(should the top wheel not be off in some way)
and one would hope that the motor be in line with the bottom wheel which is aligned with it,
which would hopefully be adjustable in some way or another, if not aligned.

That thinking means you better have a solid wheel in the first place,
and I'm guessing the spacer maybe to blame, as this is not an often discussed matter, it's pretty interesting to me.
Should it be like the Centauro's and have a bearing retention circlip on the rear of those bearings,
then it may be possible that that slot cut into the inside of the bore may have quite a bit of play,
i.e causing lateral force on the bearings (if still proud of the shaft, or multiple washers stacked onto the shaft, for the washer to contact inner race)

Should there be some arrangement like in the thread linked, and the circlip is hidden from view.
then likely some sort of spacer like this between bearings?
511512

Good luck
Tom

[arose62]

I had a similar scenario with the drive wheel on the back of my washing machine.
I ended up shimming with bits of feeler gauges set in epoxy ( J.B. Weld, I think, it was over 10 years ago)

Feeler gauge sets are cheap, easily available, and you get a range of thicknesses.

Cheers,
Andrew

[Chris Parks]

Boring and sleeving are the best answer but Sikaflex will do the job.

[auscab]

I haven't totally read through all the other comments so something like this may have been said.
For a quick fix shimming the gap may be good enough. Otherwise get in re bored out to the next bearing size if its possible.
I hate having to take parts out to get it fixed somewhere else . The wait and the paying $ is the worst of it . + the travel .

For the shimming though . Get a feeler gauge and measure the gap as best you can to get a good idea of the shim size needed . Divide that size in half for the shim stock needed . Buy Shim stock and see if you can clean and scuff the bearing outer so the shim stock can be cut and glued on with loctight . Then prepare the wheel for pressing the bearing in supporting bearing and shim stock as you go with a plate or pipe end that covers both . You probably should ream out the entrance on the wheel with a slight angle so the shim stock enters ok . If you get the sizing correct it should be OK I think . Here's Shim Stock on ebay . Brass stuff . Otherwise try it with shim from feeler gauge as mentioned if you can get enough . I once saw lengths of steel shim in long strips but no idea where to get it . Engineers use it. Or use Aluminium can material if its close to the right size and you can take it down a touch in size with a file once it on the bearing.

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=Shim+Stock&_sacat=0

[woodPixel]

A cheap set of spring metal feeler gauges (https://www.totaltools.com.au/128023-tti-36-blade-metric-af-feeler-gauge-set-ttiautot014), find one that fits, wrap it around and tap/hammer it in.... or snip a section into the available gap. I seriously doubt it will affect the oscillation/eccentricity of the wheel, and even if it does, there are a few videos showing how to "lathe" the outside with a block of sandpaper to make it run smooth.

A coke can is exactly 0.1mm and consumer aluminium foil is 0.016mm. Thick foil is 0.024mm. One could make a shim with folded layers of foil.

Also, what is the machines model number?

Are you certain the prior owner hasn't simply put in a "close enough" bearing? Order the right ones for a few dollars and pop them in.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Are you certain the prior owner hasn't simply put in a "close enough" bearing? Order the right ones for a few dollars and pop them in.

Good point. I'd pop out what you got and accurately measure both the bearing OD & wheel ID. That'll let you know whether either is ovalled and if they're both truly round & relatively undamaged then it may just be a matter of buying & fitting the right size...

[sallz0r]

For the shimming though . Get a feeler gauge and measure the gap as best you can to get a good idea of the shim size needed . Divide that size in half for the shim stock needed . Buy Shim stock and see if you can clean and scuff the bearing outer so the shim stock can be cut and glued on with loctight . Then prepare the wheel for pressing the bearing in supporting bearing and shim stock as you go with a plate or pipe end that covers both . You probably should ream out the entrance on the wheel with a slight angle so the shim stock enters ok . If you get the sizing correct it should be OK I think . Here's Shim Stock on ebay . Brass stuff . Otherwise try it with shim from feeler gauge as mentioned if you can get enough . I once saw lengths of steel shim in long strips but no idea where to get it . Engineers use it. Or use Aluminium can material if its close to the right size and you can take it down a touch in size with a file once it on the bearing.

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=Shim+Stock&_sacat=0


Oh, thank you! that's awesome -- I never thought to search for shim stock, I didn't know such a thing existed. The other suggestion was using a cheap set of feeler gauges, which was another option I was considering :)

I've ordered some Loctite 660 which sounds like exactly what I need. ("LOCTITE 660 is a high strength retaining compound with good gap filling properties, ideal for repairing worn-out seats, keys, splines, bearings or tapers without remachining.")

https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/au/en/product/retaining-compounds/loctite_660.html



Also, what is the machines model number?

Are you certain the prior owner hasn't simply put in a "close enough" bearing? Order the right ones for a few dollars and pop them in.

That's a good point. I ordered a new pair of bearings originally, thinking the previous ones were damaged/worn/something, but the new ones did the exact same thing. (I ordered based on the model number on the bearings themselves). It's a 6204LLU, which is 47mm OD, and would there even be bearings that are a fraction of a mm bigger than that (eg. 47.1, 47.2, etc.)? where would I find some....... definitive list of bearings? :thinking:

Thanks for all the help. I'll get some shim stock, wait for the Loctite 660 to arrive, and try my best to get the wheel perfectly centered on the bearing (using shim stock to hold it in place) while I glue it with the loctite.

[Tom trees]

Have you figured out why the bore got damaged?
Scored bore would suggest bearing freezing, which doesn't sound like the case.

I'd once again speculate that it could be one or the other, and just as likely both situations
where initial setup/and bearing spacer was to blame.

Worn spacers pretty much makes precision adjustment impossible, and for the folks on the other side of the fence
about aligning wheels with each other, makes a complete setup by eye/experience the same
I'd been trying for a long time before table removal,
Was thinking my tires were to blame all along.

I can tell you my experience of what a worn spacer sounds like,
Slightly noticeable knocking sound for one with a quiet machine, say maybe not so for folks who use cool blocks kinda thing.
More so noticeable are the machine talking back to you whilst coasting to a stop, (labouring squeak, bit like a rusty gate)
and while hand turning wheel under blade tension, will slightly talk back also.
More noticeable was without a blade, hand turning upper wheel one can note a slight donk occasionally.

And running the machine, the blade simulates fore and aft movement, much like what a bad blade weld looks like.
(back of the blade would be bouncing on the thrust guide if it were close)
Not sure if my half @rsed previous attempts of tire dressing was to blame as much as the spacer wear was,
but is a remedy for a few things noticeable.
Blade set compression, I have plenty of sharp blades which are unusable as of yet,
and vastly differing setup needed for a thin guage blade and thicker one. (same TPI and width)
(once again was blaming my tires at the time)
Thin gauge blades didn't fair well at all, so I would guess a tell tale sign compared to the heftier blades
which ran a lot better until things became noticeable with the knocking noise.
Thankfully only spacer was to blame and not wheel bore issues,
this was very very evident holding the shaft in hand, as the wheel will wobble about a lot more so than when mounted onto the machine!
(evident in hand like a gearstick!, compared to on the machine barely noticeable)

Not knowing what spacer arrangement you have, all I can suggest is make note of that.
should that bearing locking compound be a one time deal,
i.e remove bearings and you've got to scrape it off and reapply?

Then I'd suggest you want to be sure that your spacers are bang on, and possibly more so than they ever were to begin with.
as should anyone be questioning myself and others thinking on the matter of setup,
would likely have to come to the conclusion that those spacers was likely the cause of the bore wear in the first place.
(as I'm guessing those tires are crowned fairly accurately)

Therefore I'd be removing shaft and seeing what those spacers are like,
You might be quite surprised at the variability should you measure them, and if something similar to my plastic orange one,
question if it were any good atall?


Tom

[sallz0r]

Thanks Tom. ........ Some of those things actually sound familiar, so I'm wondering if you're right about the spacers. But, I'll ask the dumb question here (and admit that I'm still fairly novice and ignorant here!) ....... what part exactly are you talking about with the spacers? :-)

I've got the BP-480 -- W4344 - BP-480 Wood Band Saw | Hare & Forbes Machineryhouse (https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/w4344) -- which has this manual -- https://images.machineryhouse.com.au/products/K8101/PDF/K8101%20-%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf

I've had a look at the breakdown, and I can't find anything that is labelled as spacers, and honestly I'm not too sure what exactly to check for. I could assemble it again (the wheel is off at the moment) and run it to show you what the blade does, if that's relevant?

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

Mikey

[Tom trees]

Hello again
I had a look at the manual which is similar to many manuals...i.e hard to read,
I seen what could be it called a bushing.
Regardless of that, what I'm saying is spot the difference.

Note the bearing sunken into the wheel in the first picture.
Sorry I don't have a photo of the shaft installed, if I did you would see it proud or flush with the inner race.
What's easily noticeable is the gap between circlip and outer race of the bearing.
511724
Compared to this picture where the inner race is proud of the shaft, so that the retaining washer (not pictured)
actually squeezes the wheel onto the shaft and butting it against the smaller circlip pictured on the shaft,
and that washer wont be just for stopping the wheel from coming off, its forcing it to stay put.
A rotating washer is a give away that the spacer could be worn or wasn't wide enough to begin with.

The other thing which the spacer is doing is keeping the bearings apart, so that there is no slop between outer race
and circlip, so not only are the bearings held tightly, but the wheel is not freely able to move about like before in which
it had say 1mm of play to butt against the front circlip, and likely the same deal with the opposite side of the wheel.

Just an illustration to demonstrate that my bearings aren't extremely tight, as you can see were sank into the wheel,
and are now somewhat floating, I mean they wont fall out and have to be pressed or tapped out,
but the shaft isn't able to wriggle about in your hand.
I didn't notice this whilst on the machine, and would find it hard to say whether a saw had this problem
and without the tell tale signs of the wheel washer loose(ish) and shaft proud or flush, say someone covered that up with tape,
I'd be listening with my ears perked to tell you.

You might have a metal spacer or bushing doing the same, but maybe it could with a suitable precision washer of some sort.
(many washers are a bit higgledy piggledy being stamped out from sheet)

Maybe others can comment should it be an entirely differing setup, but would at least presume the bearing inner race is proud of the shaft.
I was thinking my bottom wheel was going to be the same deal, but the setup was good already, just like below.
Will be keeping an eye on it though.

511723
Hope that helps

Tom

[Treecycle]

From the link you supplied for the manual it looks like the correct bearings are installed. The parts list says 4 bearings so the same bearings must also be used in the bottom wheel.

511924

What you can do before refitting the bearing is put a series of centre punch marks around the diameter of the surface where the bearing fits. Try to get the punch marks fairly uniform in size and put about 10 - 12 of them around the diameter and 3 - 4 rows of them. What this does is remove the clearance between the bore and the bearing so that when you press the bearing back in with the Loctite it helps to centralise the bearing in the bore. Without these the bearing could go to one side of the bore and when the Loctite sets the wheel will wobble.

[Tom trees]

Also worth noting that the shaft is evidently moving in the video, side to side play, not just up and down which should be the only play evident, so not just the wheel moving about around the bearings.
Taking the shaft out along with the wheel will let you know if you've fixed this or not.
Seemingly this wheel is the same deal as with the wood haven 2 post, i.e circlip deeper in bore than mine for outer race to
contact at the back.
Without knowing if there's play of that circlip in the slot, hard to advise any further about a possible spacer issue.
That would be where I would start.

Tom