Bandsaw blades for resawing

[BILLOJ]

I have a Carbatec 21” bandsaw that I purchased new about 10 years ago.
My intention was and is use this mainly for resawing. The machine has enough power in my option, to drive a 32mm blade.
I would really appreciate some advice on blade selection, realising that there are so many variables when dealing with timber. At present I am having problems with resin buildup on the blades when cutting slash pine and other timbers.
Do the TCT blades deal with this issue any better than a regular blade. Normally I would purchase one to try but at $350+ freight I am a little reluctant.
Thanks.

[Tom trees]

Hello
Can't answer you question about pitch build up on carbide vs regular blades,
Just a few things worth noting, should you not be referring to the Trimaster blade which is easier tensioned, and not the Woodmaster CT blade,
as guessing your saw is around 200kg or a tiny bit more, and not built for that wide of a blade, nevermind carbide which are even tougher to tension again, specs on any saw won't mention gauge thickness, that's a dead giveaway,
not to mention no claims on gauge thickness referring to PSI.
John TenEyck has posted about this should you look. he tensions his CT to 25000 PSI if neseccairy
and mentions they don't work well at low tension, should you value your machine,
be that the wheel bores should it have smaller bearings, and your tensioning spring, it's food for thought.
Narrower blade and more tension is likely a much safer solution.

Does your machine have flat tires that you want greater overhang off the edge,
or should it be a case of more overhang off the camber?
Not many brands doing true flat tires apart from most of the larger Italian machines.

Another thing, to add that relevant quote from John, hope he doesn't mind me pasting...

"Using this gage I found that the difference between applying 25 ksi to a Woodmaster CT and 42 ksi is surprising little. At 25 ksi the arrow on the saw's tension indicator was just below the 1" blade mark while at 42 ksi it was just above it, less than 1/2 a turn on the tension wheel."


Saying that, and you really want to try carbide, then have a read of Tai Fu's posts on what's available
"Chinese carbide bandsaw blades" on sawmill creek, and you will find info how to buy from Ali express or Taobao,
in whatever gauge, width, and TPI, seems cheaper than buying the in-between M42 blades localish.

All the best
Tom

[aldav]

I have an 18" Carbatec bandsaw fitted with a 1" (27mm) TCT blade. I suspect that the frame of the saw is really not quite strong enough to properly tension the blade, which means there's a bit of fiddling around to properly adjust the tracking of the blade. Regardless of this the combination does an excellent job of resawing timber up to 300mm high. IMO you would be well advised to not run a blade that is the maximum capacity of your machine and stick to a 1" blade.

I bought my blade from Henry Bros. and it was A LOT less than $350, comfortably under $200 delivered from memory.
BANDSAW BLADES TIMBER | (https://henrybrossaws.com.au/bandsawstimber/#tct-tipped)

[BobL]

Resin build up is exacerbated by heat which increases the mount of resin "sweated" by the wood. On the big water cooled bandsaw mill I use I never see any resin build up, this mill uses a water spray direct onto the blade. On the smaller Woodlander bandsaw mill which uses water drop/dribble cooling (a few drops a second) there is more resin build up than the water spray cooled mill, and the blunter the blade the greater the greater the resin build up.

Of course upright saws are not good candidates for water cooling but the next obvious thing then is to make sure you run sharp blades. TCT blades stay sharp for longer than conventional blades so that should have less resin build up but just like TCT circle blades if they are pushed hard they will get hot and you will get more resin.

When I get resin build up on chainsaw chains I sometimes spray diesel on the chain and let it soak for a while (ON is best) and the resin will usually slough off when I next cut with the saw. Thi works on bandsaw bands but they usually have to be removed from the saw to be treated and the diesel has to be wired off before use because diesel may damage the tyres. There are plenty of other things that remove resin including smoking in oven cleaner and strong detergents but they also have to be removed before use. On some resins plain old hot (preferably boiling) water works but you will need to find a container big enough to hold the bands while its boiling

If you want a cheaper AUS supplier of TCT blades try McDivens (McDiven Saws P/L specializes in all types of bandsaws (http://www.mcdivensaws.com.au)) There not much info on the website but there is a phone number and email address that you can use to ask for a quote. I find they are usually about 25% cheaper than other suppliers.

[Chris Parks]

From my observation a lot of users think wider blades make for better BS performance and the opposite is the case and sometimes it is best to listen to the experts who make and sell BS blades and see what they say. There is no way on God's earth that my Minimax 18" machine would tension the 1" blade that Minimax reckon it will and I have found that a 3/4" Trimaster carbide blade gives excellent resaw performance and it was cheaper. A Laguna carbide blade is thinner and tensions better than a Trimaster and also can be resharpened where the Trimaster cannot be according to Henry Brothers but I have had mine for four years and it still cuts well despite the odd collision with nails and screws.

[aldav]

From my observation a lot of users think wider blades make for better BS performance and the opposite is the case and sometimes it is best to listen to the experts who make and sell BS blades and see what they say. There is no way on God's earth that my Minimax 18" machine would tension the 1" blade that Minimax reckon it will and I have found that a 3/4" Trimaster carbide blade gives excellent resaw performance and it was cheaper. A Laguna carbide blade is thinner and tensions better than a Trimaster and also can be resharpened where the Trimaster cannot be according to Henry Brothers but I have had mine for four years and it still cuts well despite the odd collision with nails and screws.

Agreed, I wish I'd gotten a 3/4" blade for my machine. The OP's saw should have no trouble tensioning a 1" blade though. There can also be a significant difference in price between the various brands of TCT blades so it pays to have a good look around at what is available.

[BILLOJ]

Thank you everyone for your replies. The comments are appreciated and I will now do some research on blade availability.
I have had my suspicions about the 32mm blade due to the fact that the machine vibrated more than what I thought was reasonable. I do have a 16mm 6tpi blade that I use which I am sort of happy with though I think that it had become dull.
I guess that the next consideration is learning how to tune the machine properly. Of course there is quite a lot on the net, with suggestions such as adjusting the blade to run with the bottom of the tooth gullet in the centre of the Tyre rather than the whole blade centred on the tyre. My tyres are dome shaped and therefore not flat by the way.
Thank you once again for making the effort to comment.
Bill.

[BobL]

. . . . I guess that the next consideration is learning how to tune the machine properly. Of course there is quite a lot on the net, with suggestions such as adjusting the blade to run with the bottom of the tooth gullet in the centre of the Tyre rather than the whole blade centred on the tyre. My tyres are dome shaped and therefore not flat by the way.

Maybe not right on centre but pretty close to it - certainly closer than you think.

[BILLOJ]

Maybe not right on centre but pretty close to it - certainly closer than you think.
I have had a look for previous posts on this forum for bandsaw tuning and have not come up with anything to date.
Can you offer your thoughts on tuning please.
Bill.

[aldav]

Pretty hard to go past the Snodgrass method, he certainly seems to know his stuff. Band Saw Clinic with Alex Snodgrass - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU)

[Tom trees]

"The Snodgrass method" i.e all of which he has demonstrated so far that I've seen, (Alex has a channel called bandsaw life)
has so far been concerned about little machines.
There's much more to tuning a larger saw than that, as you can cause damage to both wheels and motor bearings,
And should one be a skrimper, then they may well indeed have a life what's concentrated around mainly bandsaws:rolleyes:

On pretty much all welded frame bandsaws, the top wheel is the datum point as it's not adjustable for yaw/skew call it what you want, not talking about wheel depth nor left/right adjustability of the carriage on the Italian machines for instance.

Whether that top wheel is in the right location in the first place, is likely individual to the machine,
as nothing is guaranteed in that regards,
Steel moves once welded, and evident on many a machine, and as of yet I'd guess no one has sorted good jigs for this
as we can see a tippy machine from nearly all brands out there.
I could go on all day about tippy machines, the hassle of levelling them accurately, I've actually set about sorting this out ATM, bit of a head scratcher so it is...
My point being that if the machine won't stand plumb, then one would have to presume that it's a bit of a gamble as to
how spot on the location of the wheel(s) ends up.
I took an absolute gamble on the correct location of the carriage, (as my saw was very much abused)
so I have to stick to my guns now!:wink:
511592


Right or wrong, you can't adjust the top wheel on any machine to suit the bottom wheel either!
(well not on any machine I've seen)

so it must be that the bottom wheel has to suit the top.
(do we need to see damage of wheel bores?)
and check that the motor pulley is certainly and surely in-line with the wheel hub,
and sort that out if it isn't, as you can damage motor bearings in all of 5 seconds,
I learned that the hard way before doing work on this machine.

Testing machine without blade and with a real loose drive belt is advisable, once sighted down beforehand.
One would hope that the motor would line up,
not so easy to adjust on many a machine, since most saws have flange mounted motors,
which if pulley on shaft is as far as it will reach, then one has a bit of a pickle.
My motor seems(ed) to line up, but awaiting some more work, as I have other work needing doing on the machine before I can do that as precisely as I can get things by now.

511593


I have yet to hear anyone who's interested in bandsaws disagree with me on this,
but many seemingly are reluctant to have an opinion, but suggest questionable practices.

Tom

[Tom trees]

Eager to get my wheel back on the machine, but have to wait until bearing spacers made.
This will make the wheel solid


and combined with my new level should get even more accuracy.
Didn't have one at the time to level the machine to set it up,
Some plumbobs to level the column, it took a set of them to do the job, some wooden blocks taped on or magnetized
and suitable "mood" lighting :D as your eyes can be fooled otherwise.

511597511599511598
Could also check for plumb wheels if you have Italian flavour or wish to setup machine with differing tire thickness
you still can have the table 90,
and check for wheel protrusion using the wheel bolts, which is likely do-able even if there's no adjustment of the shaft.
511596

Block taped to a beam to get co-planar and in-line with column
511602511603
After which checking lower wheel for alignment to the top wheel, this can take a while since any adjustment causes a domino effect,
and one needs to go through all adjustments again, (blade needs to be tensioned as it's used to keep top wheel from tilting,
and I'm reading Centauro's suggestion of using a hefty blade for alignment...now that one can get blade tracking in the location one wants, and not foul
the block on the beam.
511601511600
And cross ones fingers that the motor pulley aligns, since its no fun replacing bearings in a motor!


Eager to try out me new dual milled edge beam for the job, which may likely get used today, trying seeing if I can do this without total disassembly.
Probably unlikely though:no:
Maybe I should have took Riverbuilder's suggestion of getting a laser!
but I'm sticking to old skool, as battery's don't last for long in an un-insulated workshop in Eire.
511604

All the best
Tom

[Mobyturns]

TT your two posts above are worthy of their own thread. :U

Best not to side track another's thread with an allied topic but not really pertinent to the OP's topic. :)

[Tom trees]

@Mobyturns, sorry for sidetracking, been revving myself up for todays bandsaw work.:U
Just keen to see if any of ye have been looking at the cheap carbide ones Tai-Fu has been using.
Should someone find some Chinese person to read the details on the website, maybe you guys have found them on Ali express,
no horse in this race as I have plenty of blades, and will likely sort sharpening and setting them when the time comes,
but I do have some uber dense timber which just might toast anything less.

Regards
Tom

[aldav]

Don't know where all this co-planer wheels stuff comes from. If the wheels were supposed to be co-planer surely the manufacturer would have set the machine up that way in the first place? Once you adjust the blade tracking on the top wheel the chances of the wheels being co-planer is virtually nil. :?

As far as the Chinese blades go I went to Sawmill Creek and checked the posted link to Aliexpress. A blade of the size that I currently have on my saw is considerably more expensive from there than the blade from Henry Bros. was. Only difference between the blades is the Henry Bros. one is 1.3 tpi and the Chinese one is 3 tpi. I note that the guy talking about the Chinese blades on Sawmill Creek is based in Taiwan, you know, only a short ferry ride from China not the other side of the world like us.

[Chris Parks]

Don't know where all this co-planer wheels stuff comes from. If the wheels were supposed to be co-planer surely the manufacturer would have set the machine up that way in the first place? Once you adjust the blade tracking on the top wheel the chances of the wheels being co-planer is virtually nil. :?

A point I have made before but it doesn't seem to sink in. The top wheel and bottom wheel can only be "co-planer" at one point of adjustment made by the tracking adjuster and it may not be possible even then depending on how the saw is made.

[Tom trees]

From what I've experienced, you can adjust tracking with both wheels, maybe not so much with wheels with a large crown,
But Say a crowned and a flat fire with rounded edges, maybe that doesn't count though.

Wildshot guess that most folk who attempt adjustment of the lower wheel, likely have the north/south jacking adjustments the wrong way round, so their actually working against themselves, as the crown is making it less apparent.
Pretty obvious with the table (or the extension wing) removed.

But forgetting about that, it.needs to be done before checking for east/west, as per pictures, or done using a laser if you like.

Quote from the bandsaw man himself Van Huskey
Why bandsaws? ....
"Why? I don't know it is kinda hard to explain but it has to do with the fact that they are sorta like dogs. Each has its own personality, not just every make and model but each individual saw but when you get to know them they become like an old pal. When you first adopt them they can be kind of angry and/or scared but with a little love they begin to open up and do what you ask of them. They are also quite versatile and make the best case to have multiples in the shop. I guess I just like the fact they are so simple but yet confound when it comes to setting them up."

Haven't seen him around lately, miss that guys bandsaw posts.

[Tom trees]

As far as the Chinese blades go I went to Sawmill Creek and checked the posted link to Aliexpress. A blade of the size that I currently have on my saw is considerably more expensive from there than the blade from Henry Bros. was. Only difference between the blades is the Henry Bros. one is 1.3 tpi and the Chinese one is 3 tpi. I note that the guy talking about the Chinese blades on Sawmill Creek is based in Taiwan, you know, only a short ferry ride from China not the other side of the world like us.
Had another look at the link, I suspect Ali express could be searchable in differing languages since Tai-Fu mentioned them,
Seems he buys ones for his 26" machine for around 50 dollars, fair enough though shipping maybe another matter.
Can't see why though, I bought lawnmower parts recently, and they came with free shipping. (can't get these local)

That website looks truly baffling to me lol, seems you might need to use some app for changing languages should one exist.
Tai is on the OLF (luthier forum), and not some scoundrel chancing his arm BTW.

淘宝网 - 淘！我喜欢 (https://login.taobao.com/member/login.jhtml?redirectURL=https%3a%2f%2fitem.taobao.com:443/item.htm%2F_____tmd_____%2Fpage%2Flogin_jump%3Frand%3DS3WxGHAgAt756EpznwfNzJq2AFA2qBNla3j6EINUS8We9dazM_iKElp8DwVSHZUevpC41Bx7RzivXIj9RnZgdg%26_lgt_%3D730b3a2105dda8536abddd0593bf7285___150202___36e0954739d7fe75d9eba6f01f6c215c___eaebc79cac1eb5d2f7d8b4595e00ec73155567f2fa11d3fa98d1009a8319d03fe95669dec8ebefd0673824737aba9336f0e031931b9132ad85013eb3be5f87fdfda1ffe6d0052b26010cff24765b9373dcd8abb49b700e5b34ac68fe61df9c8e0297a49e8744acee0e6c3aaf255eb8162def7575b37faa62751319dcb4ac311b%26x5referer%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fitem.taobao.com%252Fitem.htm%253Fspm%253Da1z09.2.0.0.14c92e8dtAxKDP%2526id%253D520363678541%2526_u%253D12023lrtq5d09c%2526mt%253D&uuid=730b3a2105dda8536abddd0593bf7285&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.14c92e8dtAxKDP&_u=12023lrtq5d09c)

There's also mention of a German supplier on the creek post, but guess they ain't cheap.

Attempting to find some sort of search bar, it does look a bit dodgy! :)
Clicked on the site name and it came up, currently looking for ... Carbide Tànhuà wù, Tipped " Xiǎofèi "or Tip " Tíshì "
Bandsaw " Dài jù " Blade " Dāo " which I tried along with this... 碳化物 小费 提示 带锯 刀
but to no avail.
511669


Tom

[BILLOJ]

Well another day for me to apply some of the suggestions put by the members on the
is forum.
I am happy to report that I fitted a 16mm 6tpi blade to the machine and tuned it all best that I could. I have had this blade as a spare for some time. Made some test cuts and did a small amount of resawing and all is good.
I reckon that I will be looking to purchase a new blade around 20mm 3tpi if there such a blade, perhaps may consider a 25mm but certainly no bigger.
Dont know if I will go down the Carbide path, I reckon I need to learn more about bandsaw work first. But I feel a blade with a deeper gullet would be an advantage with this slash pine that I have.
Anyhow in a short space of time the comments and suggestions that you blokes have made have helped me immensely. This is indeed a great forum for people like myself.
I realise that the thread has wandered a little but that is great. The information that Tom Trees has added is very interesting as are the additional comments from others.
I feel that the table saw in my shed may be used a little less now.
All the best. Bill.

[Mobyturns]

From my observation a lot of users think wider blades make for better BS performance and the opposite is the case and sometimes it is best to listen to the experts who make and sell BS blades and see what they say.

I think that comes from another setup issue - the guides. Wide blades tend not to twist (as much) if the side guides are not set close enough, & or the rear support is not set correctly.Wide blades tend to have greater beam strength - purely due to the fact that they are generally manufactured from thicker blade stock.

Setting up a band saw to cut very well can be quite frustrating because there are a number of factors to consider and each adjustment is not independent of the other adjustments. Tracking, tension, band beam strength, guide adjustment, feed rate, sharpness ..... will all affect cut quality and band saw blade longevity.

[Chris Parks]

I think that comes from another setup issue - the guides. Wide blades tend not to twist (as much) if the side guides are not set close enough, & or the rear support is not set correctly.Wide blades tend to have greater beam strength - purely due to the fact that they are generally manufactured from thicker blade stock.

Setting up a band saw to cut very well can be quite frustrating because there are a number of factors to consider and each adjustment is not independent of the other adjustments. Tracking, tension, band beam strength, guide adjustment, feed rate, sharpness ..... will all affect cut quality and band saw blade longevity.

If the blade cannot be tensioned to the recommended level then the beam strength suffers and a smaller blade that can be tensioned to the required level will perform better. If the blade has sufficient tension then the guides can be done away with altogether and some people do that because the guides to them are just another complication they don't need. It is not something I do regularly but I have set the guides at the very top and cut with no issues.

[Mobyturns]

If the blade cannot be tensioned to the recommended level then the beam strength suffers and a smaller blade that can be tensioned to the required level will perform better. If the blade has sufficient tension then the guides can be done away with altogether and some people do that because the guides to them are just another complication they don't need. It is not something I do regularly but I have set the guides at the very top and cut with no issues.

Correct. We understand that but many band saw users don't. Hence the misconception that a wider blade cuts "straighter."

With my current band saw - a Woodfast BS500 circa 2013 - I have found it to be rather temperamental as small changes in tension or tracking alignment can make very significant improvements in cut quality. Finding that sweet spot of correct tension, blade selection, guide setup, tracking can be a real PIA at times. Not having any real measure of blade tension does not help. I suspect some of the issues, tracking in particular, actually stem from the welded joint itself and how well the band was aligned when welded / brazed.

Lennox have a very comprehensive guide to band saw blades and list many of the causes of problems, band failures etc. Its directed at metal band saws but is applicable to wood too. LENOX_20Guide_20to_20Band_20Sawing.pdf (lenoxtools.com) (https://www.lenoxtools.com/Guides/LENOX_20Guide_20to_20Band_20Sawing.pdf)

[BobL]

To demonstrate the significance of tension, band saw mills use a band tension of 15-30,000 psi .
The mll in the photo below mill has a cutting width of 750mm, using a 32mm wide band.
Band tension is set with a torque wrench (25 ft/lb) which translates tp about 16,000 psi on the blade
It does have really nice guides and they are needed when cutting knotty wood or variable grain, otherwise it doesn't really need the guides in clear wood.

If the grain is reasonably clear and the band setup right, to cut a thinner piece of wood as shown, there's no need to move the LHS guides in closer to the wood.
511703

This mill shown below uses a 50 mm wide 1TPI band and has a max cut width of 900 mm.
It uses a band tension of 20-25000 psi, set by a hydraulic ram.
The pressure is adjusted by the operator turning a fine thread large screw that pushes on the piston of the master cylinder.
Having a pressure gauge on the ram is very revealing.
Even though the band is water cooled if insufficient water is used the band heats up and pressure as registered on the pressure gauge drops by as much as 10,000 psi and then the band wanders around like a rouge shopping trolley.
The design failure is that when milling a large log the position of the master cylinder screw (high up and behind a major mill structural beam) makes it near impossible to adjust the band pressure.
Moving the master cylinder is on the todo list for that mill.
511700

[Tom trees]

That's quite revealing BobL
Makes me wonder why I've not seen nor read of anyone using an infrared thermometer gun whilst giving the
machine a good workout.
Heard that these don't fair well for reflective things, but would guess better than nothing.

One can see that's fair enough reason to detension blades after hard use,
Not that I was ever on the fence about that, but from now on take a leaf out of the saw millers book,
and actually have a good excuse!.:q

Regarding the guides up all the way, or should I say guide post, I haven't really needed it so tall on my machine,
but read of a recent enough really terrible accident with such practice, involving someone being unaware of the machine running, as dust extractor was on.

Food for thought for those doing so without being in a mill situation,
not that I haven't read of a fairly local to me fatality recently in that sector either, which kinda sounded like similar practice,
but of which I know very little about.

All the best
Tom

[BobL]

That's quite revealing BobL
Makes me wonder why I've not seen nor read of anyone using an infrared thermometer gun whilst giving the
machine a good workout.
Heard that these don't fair well for reflective things, but would guess better than nothing.
I regularly use my IR thermometer on the Bandsaw mills bands and I have also used it on my chainsaw chains.
I measure the temp of the bands/chains before and after, and as the bands are water cooled, going into and coming out of the cut.
The big mill uses a water spray (ie a fair bit of water) onto the bed so the "in and out" band temps are whatever the water temperature is, irrespective of band sharpness and wood hardness or width of cut.
The smaller mill uses much less water (a dribble of water drops) so with a freshly sharpened band on about a 400mm wide cut in green hardwood the "out" temp is about 10ºC higher than the "in" temp. as the band gets blunter, wood gets dryer/harder/wider, the temp goes up accordingly. I have deliberately let the band go blunter than usual just to see what would happen and measured the band at over 100ºC - I did not need the thermometer to tell me this as some steam was coming off the band.

RE; problems with reflectivity on IR thermometers, measuring before and after on the same material/object that sort of allows for for this for small temperature changes.


One can see that's fair enough reason to detension blades after hard use,
Not that I was ever on the fence about that, but from now on take a leaf out of the saw millers book,
and actually have a good excuse!.:q

I'm not so fussy about de-tensioning the band on my upright 19" BS in my home workshop. It probably knocks a few years off the life of the tyres but I got about 10 years out of the last set so I'm not complaining.


Regarding the guides up all the way, or should I say guide post, I haven't really needed it so tall on my machine,
but read of a recent enough really terrible accident with such practice, involving someone being unaware of the machine running, as dust extractor was on.
Yes this is the main reason I do this on my upright bandsaw. I've also added foot brake to mine.
BobLs bandsaw brake (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f27/bobls-bandsaw-brake-182752)

[PaintMan]

Hi Aldav,
In my wood group I have been using many different blades from both Henry Bros and others but have settled for a year or so on McDivens in Williamstown,Melb. For general work with smaller blades usually 6tpi we have switched to BiMetal on three bandsaws and one 27mm 2TPI Tungsten tipped blade on a 17 inch Carbatec bandsaw. I am of the view that this machine is not suitable for this blade due to tension needs and alignment issues together with its use by many folks with different levels of experience. In my own workshop I run the same tungsten tipped blade on a Hammer N4400 for both resaw and breakdown work and both the blade and the saw have yielded excellent results over the past year.
Currently I am looking at upgrades for our woodgroup bearing in mind safety/electrical/mechanical/compliance issues as well as specific resaw needs with a more study 3 phase unit from either SCM or Felder appears to to offer the sort of machines that can better handle resaw work with a 27mm Tungsten tipped blade tensioned and aligned well. We also run a small permanently mounted "Portamill" for small log cutting and found changing from the original 50mm 1 TPI blades to the McDivens 27mm 1 TPI BiMetal blades were far better for both performance and setting on the machine. We also have been able to use the "DinaSaw" resharpening machine on these blades which is another bonus. Cheers,Paintman