Bench top chisel morticers worth it?

[John G]

Can’t afford (and don’t have space) for a big floorstanding unit.
The bench top models can be had for $<600.
But have heard they aren’t that great, and are a total phaff to set up properly.

Is it worth while getting?

Right now all my mortises are done with handheld router and homemade jig. Then I cut square tenons on TS and round all the tenons by hand, which can be a pain to fit really well.

I’m prepared to spend $600, but not if it will pi$$ me off by giving unsatisfactory results. Only ones I have found are the carbatec and H&F, which look the same. Interestingly Timbecon seem to have stopped selling them, not sure how long ago...

[powderpost]

John,

I have used one of the bench top morticers. The stuff I did was for cabinets and not for making full sized joinery. It did a good job keeping in mind they are light machines . Not sure how they would perform making full sized joinery.

Gotta be better than using a router? Plus side is you can often win a slab by betting you can bore a perfectly square hole in one shot. Might off set the costs a tad????

Jim

[auscab]

The cheap bench top units are a bit light weight and nasty.

You can see this type below around for 6 to 700 second hand. Unbolt the base and put it on a bench . Hang the counter weight through a hole in the bench top and you will have a beauty. Its the first machine larger than a hand held tool I bought 30 years ago new from Carbatec Richmond. I have this and also larger big ones and still use this rather than change the set up on the larger Wadkin. I keep it with 3/8 chisel in it.
Before I had the larger units everything was done on this . Cabinet work with 1/4 to 3/8 " chisel . And large tables cutting huge mortises with 1/2 or 3/4 chisel doing multiple passes. Many trades men also used it . 8 apprentices as well . They ( The Apprentices ) broke it and I fixed it twice.

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Ive just been doing this on that small mortiser last week.
3/8 M&T. Carbatec chisel in it. 50 mm long tenon .

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I cut the Haunches on those tenons on this . Its a sled on the table saw with the saw running a 19mm dado. Its actually 19.5mm
It cuts tenons very good as well . I didn't cut my tenons on it as I have a tenoner that does both sides in one pass as well as off set the shoulders. But if I didn't have that Id be doing tenons on the sled like that.

Rob

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[auscab]

I’m prepared to spend $600, but not if it will pi$$ me off by giving unsatisfactory results. Only ones I have found are the carbatec and H&F, which look the same.

My Brother has used My mortiser shown for years and he went and bought a carbatec model currently available . When he got it and started using it he hated it.
Same feedback from a mate who got one second hand . He did some nice doors with it but was complaining about the quality of it.

Rob

[auscab]

I have used one of the bench top morticers. The stuff I did was for cabinets and not for making full sized joinery. It did a good job keeping in mind they are light machines . Not sure how they would perform making full sized joinery.

Gotta be better than using a router?

Jim

Anything would be better than mortising with a router. Even a lightweight bench top mortiser.

[tonzeyd]

Like all tool purchases it depends on your intended usage. If you're doing loads of them then get the floor standing model.

If not then the bench top one works plenty good. Ive got a Carbatec benchtop unit and did all the joinery for my split top roubo on it and performed as expected. You do need to have realistic expectations for it, ie dont expect it to take a full plunge in one hit and youll be happy with it.

The mortises are accurate and square, def much more accurate than if i were to mortise them by hand with a chisel. Def do not regret buying mine and would recommend getting one in the right circumstances. As they are one of those tools that is a one trick pony.

[derekcohen]

I had a benchtop mortiser for a brief while (inherited from a mate). It was absolute frustration to use, especially with hardwood. I loved the idea of a mortising machine, but this worked nothing like the ones I saw in the better workshops. Sharp bits made no difference.

If others in your price range are like this, you will be far better off with my router fixture, which is quick to set up and accurate. Plus not bits to sharpen!

https://i.postimg.cc/5NLS6KHj/1a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/TPYVNRtW/2a.jpgWithout the router attached ...

https://i.postimg.cc/nrbX3rRT/Morticing2.jpg
Morticing ..

https://i.postimg.cc/1zdnNJDk/Morticing3.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John G]

My Brother has used My mortiser shown for years and he went and bought a carbatec model currently available . When he got it and started using it he hated it.

I'm guessing he was guaranteed to be disappointed, because he has downgraded to the benchtop after first using your beefy machine.


I had a benchtop mortiser for a brief while (inherited from a mate). It was absolute frustration to use, especially with hardwood... this worked nothing like the ones I saw in the better workshops. Sharp bits made no difference.
What exactly was the frustration? Too hard to plunge? Or too difficult to get chisel parallel (so not to get zigzag mortices)? Or something else?



If others in your price range are like this, you will be far better off with my router fixture, which is quick to set up and accurate. Plus no bits to sharpen!
I already do this with my own router jig and a spiral upcut bit, and it works pretty well. So ironically, making mortices is not really the problem. It is the hassle to finesse the curved tenons to get a snug fit, because when it binds it is difficult to tell exactly where. Then you chisel a bit off only to find you chiselled in the wrong spot and it still binds... then back and forth and back and forth... you get what I mean. Your jig also gives you curved mortices ends, what do you do then?
Toyed with the idea of floating tenons but not really a fan. Also, these are difficult to do into the end grain of long pieces.

[derekcohen]

What exactly was the frustration? Too hard to plunge? Or too difficult to get chisel parallel (so not to get zigzag mortices)? Or something else?

John, the construction was not beefy enough to push a sharp chisel into hardwood. If the depth of the mortice was planned to be 1”, only a little over 1/4” could be achieved each plunge.

The router bit, by contrast, plunges full depth. A series of holes is created and then cut across. I use a carbide spiral upcut bit.


Your jig also gives you curved mortices ends, what do you do then?

I choose to square the mortice ends with a mortice chisel. Takes a few seconds. Others bevel the ends of the tenon, just removing the corners. It is not necessary to fit round ends exactly.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/blob:https://www.woodworkforums.com/d9e0af05-9638-4712-ab6d-0d789ada338b
https://i.postimg.cc/jddhvC74/Sofa-Table-Legs-html-5daaf5c.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[auscab]

For a chisel mortiser to work well it needs a dovetailed way that is sturdy . A long arm for leverage to plunge a chisel .
A motor powerful enough to not jam from chips in between the chisel and drill bit. And either a decent weight or be bolted down so it wont tip forward when your just about hanging off the long arm .

A 3/8 chisel is 4 x 9.5mm worth of sharp edge on the first plunge . 38mm of chisel moving wood!
And 3x 9.5 for the rest of the mortise . 28.5mm. A fair bit of force is needed for that to work.
Which is obviously why these on the left don't work as well as the next level up on the right.
The one on the right could be bench mounted as well and not take up much more space.

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Rob

[Chris Parks]

I'm guessing he was guaranteed to be disappointed, because he has downgraded to the benchtop after first using your beefy machine.


What exactly was the frustration? Too hard to plunge? Or too difficult to get chisel parallel (so not to get zigzag mortices)? Or something else?


I already do this with my own router jig and a spiral upcut bit, and it works pretty well. So ironically, making mortices is not really the problem. It is the hassle to finesse the curved tenons to get a snug fit, because when it binds it is difficult to tell exactly where. Then you chisel a bit off only to find you chiselled in the wrong spot and it still binds... then back and forth and back and forth... you get what I mean. Your jig also gives you curved mortices ends, what do you do then?
Toyed with the idea of floating tenons but not really a fan. Also, these are difficult to do into the end grain of long pieces.

If you have a bandsaw accurate tenons are quick to do and for the round edge just round it off with a rasp, chisel or whatever the first likely thing that falls to hand. The cheeks are what is important the edges not vitally so. If using loose tenons then they can be made using a table or bandsaw and a router to round over the edges. Using a loose tenon means the thickness can be managed to match the mortise using a thicknesser, hand plane, sanding etc. I had a floor standing chisel mortiser and sold it after one job for all the reasons and more mentioned above.

[John G]

A 3/8 chisel is 4 x 9.5mm worth of sharp edge on the first plunge . 38mm of chisel moving wood!
And 3x 9.5 for the rest of the mortise . 28.5mm. A fair bit of force is needed for that to work.

Hmmm... food for thought. I hadn't realised the force needed was going to be so high - it looks so nice and easy on youtube!

Also, I note everyone here talks about using max 3/8" chisels, whereas all my tenons are 1/2" (simply due to choice of carbide bit).
So a 1/2" chisel mortice would require even more force. Would this be impossible/too much strain on a benchtop machine?

Maybe I take Derek's advice and just try square the mortices instead? I'm just squaring a mortice already cut, so I'm not sure how much difference a mortice chisel vs normal chisel would make...

[auscab]

Also, I note everyone here talks about using max 3/8" chisels, whereas all my tenons are 1/2" (simply due to choice of carbide bit).
So a 1/2" chisel mortice would require even more force. Would this be impossible/too much strain on a benchtop machine?



Depends on what wood as to how hard or easy as well . Its the first plunge that is hardest. When it gets tough I plunge a few mm in then move the chisel over and do a few mm deeper with a half bite of the chisel . I go back and forth doing that till I get to the bottom . Then all the bites moving along only have to be half a chisel width. Its a lot easier when its hard woods and larger chisels .

If you were doing a 25mm wide mortice x 100 long x 50 deep with a 1/2 inch chisel , Once you get in you can move along and just take 1/4 chisel bites at it .
I measured the arm length on mine in the picture and its around 680 long . The motor is 1 HP . Or it says that on the label . That arm length is about 120 mm shorter than the Big heavy industrial machines like the Wadkin MF at 800mm approximately. In the bottom of its cabinet it has a cast iron block as a counter balance . Its almost the size of two house bricks put side by side. Its broken its cable that runs up over a pulley twice in 30 years . That motor size and arm leverage to me puts it as a thing I wouldn't want any smaller or less powered. I stall it with jammed chips and have to deal with almost not enough leverage with it as it is .

People get by though with the smaller ones doing their size work though so there is a place for them. There's a lot you could do with one. Just go for the best you can find . The more Beefy the better .

[Cgcc]

The main benefits of a mortise chisel vs bench chisel are so far as I am aware:

- the wider sides register against the sides and resist twisting as you chop down
- you can pry out chips more easily without fear of bending the chisel

In my limited experience it is both true you don't need a mortise chisel if you have the right width mortise chisel, but also mortise chisels are very nice to have and use if you have the right one for the job.


Hmmm... food for thought. I hadn't realised the force needed was going to be so high - it looks so nice and easy on youtube!

Also, I note everyone here talks about using max 3/8" chisels, whereas all my tenons are 1/2" (simply due to choice of carbide bit).
So a 1/2" chisel mortice would require even more force. Would this be impossible/too much strain on a benchtop machine?

Maybe I take Derek's advice and just try square the mortices instead? I'm just squaring a mortice already cut, so I'm not sure how much difference a mortice chisel vs normal chisel would make...

[John G]

For a chisel mortiser to work well it needs a dovetailed way that is sturdy.
By dovetailed way, do you mean the track the motor goes up and down on, or the sliding table?

If you mean table, from what I have seen (and remembering I have never actually used one) the sliding table seems like a pain which just slows everything down. It seems much simpler to just hold the piece by hand against the fence and plunge. There doesn't seem any need to use massive clamping pressure.

So having said that, the only one of that type I can find is this Rikon one (https://www.jcwalsh.com.au/product/rikon-mortiser/), but that is out of stock until next year. The Carbatec and H&F both have the sliding table. The only advantage of the sliding table I can see is the fence has an adjusting dial which would make the fence easier to set than the other type.

[GraemeCook]

Hmmm... food for thought. I hadn't realised the force needed was going to be so high - it looks so nice and easy on youtube! ...

But they do not use jarrah.

[tonzeyd]

Your mileage may vary, but holding things by hand in a mortiser is exceptionally difficult, which is why all have clamps/holddowns. I used to think the same about X-y tables but after using mine I don't see why you wouldn't want one. The biggest issue with any mortiser is the chisel binding with the sidewalls of mortise due to heat/expansion etc. Benchtop units typically have small (but adquate) vices to overcome the friction created, but every now and then you'll find it'll be solidly jammed. Floor units have the mass to allow you to put all your force into unjamming it without lifting the whole unit off the bench/flexing the leaver.

To minimise the liklihood of jamming, the way mortisers work (particular benchtop units) is you take small plunges across the width of your mortise, leaving small gaps between each plunge, you then go back removing the small gaps. Repeat step 1 & 2 until desired depth of mortise. In principle having the x-y table allows you to lock in your work piece and you set left and right stops so it becomes more or less a no brainer process. In practise this isnt as easy due to binding resulting in you pulling the work piece out forcing you to reset your stops. So what i do, is use the mortiser to get close to my desired mortise boundary and depending on project i'd either manually plunge on the line or adjust my tenons accordingly. The x-y, makes the back and fourth movements significantly easier as well as setting the fence.

[auscab]

Yes I did mean the one the motor goes up and down on. There are two more to the bed though so I should have made that more clear.

tonzeyd post covers the jamming they do. They jam good and hard . Two sets of hands wouldn't get it off without it being well clamped. I sometimes have folded sand paper behind the wood clamped in because the wood slips out from the clamp . One of My apprentices broke my cast table tightening it to hard rather than put in the sand paper . That was one of my repairs .
A better practice is to prepare the chisels correctly by removing steel from the chisel behind the leading edge . With a linisher sander I take a few passes down each side. So when plunging the leading right sized edge is the part that rubs hard and the rest not so much. Jamming can be much worse on the first plunge in so taking it in small steps is the way to go.