Regret grain filling with timbermate. Options?

[rogerwilco]

521956
Had some tear out. Filled it. Now regret it.
is my only option to just sand it out?

luckily, this is the inside door face…

[Mobyturns]

Matching filler to wood grain & colour is never easy, an art in itself imo. Perhaps the best option when one can't resolve torn grain is to make it a feature! :D

Sometimes it works, sometimes it simply looks cheap and amateurish, your call.

[justonething]

timber mate is water-based, so if you scrub with water. it should come out. I would use a scraper/cabinet scraper on those tears out.

[jack620]

Are you talking about the white filler in the dark timber frame? If so, that filler isn’t even close to the timber colour, so it was always going to look terrible. The rule of thumb is- on dark timbers go darker, on light timbers go lighter.

Since it’s tear-out, you would probably have to sand quite deep to get to the bottom of it.
The scrubbing with water trick is worth a try.
Or you could try staining it with dye stain using a very fine artist’s brush or an ear cleaning bud. Very time consuming though.

[rogerwilco]

Justonething for the win. Bit of water and a non abrasive pad sorted it right out.
First time I’ve used timbermate, didn’t know what to expect.
thanks mate!

[auscab]

I have used a fine brass Brush like this to clean the grain out .

Sabco Brass Bristle Brush - Bunnings Australia (https://www.bunnings.com.au/sabco-brass-bristle-brush_p0066595)

Wet wood with water and brush out going with the grain . You have to go carefully and not bend the brush bristles though . It can take 80% of the problem away and what remains can be covered with a better colour matched filler .

Like has been said colour your filler so its darker than the wood . Use Oxide colours . I use the oxide colours but also have Van Dyke Crystals to use and mix with oxides or other Black water based colours. Van Dyke is a good strong Brown water colour . Used to be made from Walnut Husks but I read modern stuff is a Petro based product . No Idea what is the truth but I make sure Ive always got it . And it gets used very often.

https://www.thewoodworks.com.au/shop/consumable/van-dyke-crystals

Van Dyck Crystals: Furniture and Interior Woodwork Dyes | Liberon wood cares (https://www.liberon.co.uk/product/van-dyck-crystals/)

Also . Rarely would I grain fill a raw timber polish job . Its always done after a coat or two of sealer. Water and Oil based fillers have a bad reputation of making a job look muddy. Specially ones with oxide colours added. Depends on the wood though. Some are much worse than others. An Aussie hard wood can with close grain that is glassy hard wont be a problem like a soft absorbent Aussie Red Cedar is . A coat or two of sealer then grain fill and let the filler dry , then cut it back. If done right can keep a clear look with just the grain being slightly darker and partially filled. Then seal it in again.

[rogerwilco]

Far out Auscab, you’re a wealth of knowledge. Thanks so much for generously sharing what you know.
those are some great tips.

I’m at that point in the project where I just want it done, but I know I should stop and do these steps. I did a test panel for finishing yesterday, and it came up fantastic. Mirotone pre-cat.
I should throw a coat or two of sanding sealer on, get some oxide (or even use the black pigment that I use for epoxy, luci clear), fill the tear out, and then topcoat.

I know it will haunt me forever if I let it slip through!

I’ve also come to learn over the last few projects that it’s the quality of the repairs that set apart a great piece from an average one. There are no problems in this project (that I’m aware of) that I haven’t been able to make good in some way. Thanks in large part to the advise from others!

[rustynail]

Coffee grounds makes a good wood tint for Timbermate. The more grounds the darker the brown tint. You can match from Ash to Walnut just by the amount of coffee.

[rogerwilco]

Interesting. Do you use dry grind, or grounds after the coffee has been brewed?
Probably post brew, it’d mix and leach it’s colour more easily…

might just try that.

Actually the tearout isn’t that bad. I wanna see how the sanding sealer goes first. It may well cover most of it

[GraemeCook]

I do not want to discourage you, or argue with Rob or Rusty, but I have found it extremely difficult, nigh impossible, to get a convincing result by tinting fillers. If you are going to paint it, then fine, the filler is invisible.

But if you use a clear finish then my filler is always visible, and a better finish makes it even more visible. Yuk!

I now avoid fillers assiduously. But I use salvaged woods and often have to make nail holes, screw holes, knot holes and other blemishes go away - my solution is to use plugs of the same timber, glued in with grain aligned.

[rustynail]

Fresh grinds liquified with hot water then mixed into the neutral colour timbermate. You don't need much to start getting a tint going. One drop from a syringe to a teaspoon of timbermate will produce a light brown colour. Keep adding coffee, a drop at a time, until the desired colour is reached. If you add too much just add a bit more neutral timbermate. Once the applied tinted filler has dried it will look much lighter than when it was wet and probably looks too light for the job but this will change when a polish is applied to the surface and the tinted filler will return to it's wet look.

[The Spin Doctor]

I doubt you have the knowledge or the skill to fill tear out and make it look like anything other than crap - nobody does. But the caveat to that is how good your eyes are and what the project is. For me, my eyes are good and anything I make, can't have crap filler patches showing.

The tear out must be removed, there's no short cut.

There is another option but it's not perfect. A full-bodied clear finish. Usually used to fill all the pores in the wood, not tear out... Essentially you build up a clear coat, not tinted, of lacquer or shellac, not an oil-based varnish, sand it back, do it again, till everything is filled and smooth. There's a chance the tear out will still be somewhat visible and it's a lot of work to find out it didn't work.

YMMV

[rustynail]

Sorry Spin Doc, I beg to differ. As an apprentice, I worked under the watchful eye of an old English tradesman who did his time with Rolls Royce making their dash boards. What he could do with filler, when necessary, was absolutely amazing. Not to mention his french polishing. Burr Walnut ws his specialty. No matter how rough, he could get a glass finish on it. Mr Magic we used to call him. And he was.

[GraemeCook]

Sorry Rusty, I beg to differ.

I suggest that you might be unintentionally denigrating the exceptional craft skills of your mentor, by suggesting that I, or even the Spin Doctor, could replicate those skills. I know/knew half a dozen French polishers with exceptional skills in making problems disappear, but I was not a good student and my efforts have mainly been dismal. As I do not intend doing an apprenticeship with Rolls Royce, and have found that my best solution is to avoid the problem.

PS: I really admire the skills that you and I reference, but they are just too hard for me to acquire.

[The Spin Doctor]

Sorry Spin Doc, I beg to differ. As an apprentice, I worked under the watchful eye of an old English tradesman who did his time with Rolls Royce making their dash boards. What he could do with filler, when necessary, was absolutely amazing. Not to mention his french polishing. Burr Walnut ws his specialty. No matter how rough, he could get a glass finish on it. Mr Magic we used to call him. And he was.


I don't disagree that people could do an amazing job at hiding imperfections, but they weren't perfect cover ups by any stretch to an eye that can see them... Also, emphasis on could. Those that could are retired or dead. There simply aren't the skilled people out there anymore to pull that off. Hence what I said.

Now the caveat to that is this in a general statement and you might actually find a phenom out there that can, but they are rare as hens' teeth and this a forum for primarily weekend warriors and a smattering of professionals wanting to share and learn. So, such skill is irrelevant to the project because it's not obtainable by those making the projects.

[EagerBeaver71]

My grandad was a grainer in the 1920s, he used to be able to make wood look like marble and marble like wood according to my dad. His tools were handed down to my dad then to me. Its a lost art form.

[GraemeCook]

My grandad was a grainer in the 1920s, he used to be able to make wood look like marble and marble like wood according to my dad. His tools were handed down to my dad then to me. Its a lost art form.

Do you mean that the tools don't work properly any more?

[rustynail]

Interesting. What is it with people that because They can't do it nobody can? There are still craftsmen out there. Granted, not as thick on the ground as they once were. I hate the term "lost trade." It is just we haven't met them yet. Lost to us maybe but who knows who is out there?
A few years back a chap came to me with a Purdy shot gun that had suffered a deep, long, diagonal scratch to the face of the stock. The gun had been placed behind the front seat of a Landrover on an English pheasant shoot. Some big dood decided he needed the seat pushed back and managed to run the metal seat rail up the stock. It was hideous. My first thought was, "Out of my league." I conveyed this to my prospective customer and he understood. "Do you know anybody?" "Well I did, but he is long gone. You will be hard pressed to find some one these days. Afterall it is a Purdy and should be treated accordingly." He left, taking the shotty with him. My mind went back to those days with Jack (no this is not a poem.) I remembered he had a young son. I wondered what became of him? Chip off the old block maybe? I grabbed the phone book and looked to see if I could find the name.....Jackpot! A quick phone call and I had the right man. Yes, he had done his time with dad and he would have a look at the gun. We both agreed there was nothing to loose. If the job was not up to scratch (pardon the pun) a new stock would be the next port of call.
Long story short. The stock came back perfect. Neither I nor the owner could find a mark. His dad would have been proud.
Nothing nicer than meeting a craftsman better than you.

[GraemeCook]

Interesting. What is it with people that because They can't do it nobody can? There are still craftsmen out there. .....

Off topic, Rusty.

The topic is what Rogerwilco can reasonably be expected to do. Stretch his talents, sure, encourage him to learn new skills, sure, but still restrained by reality.

Regretably, Roger is not a Rolls Royce trained carriage builder, and most of us are not in the top 5% of the various craft spectrums. And he is not considering sub-contracting that job - defeats his DIY ethic.

[EagerBeaver71]

Do you mean that the tools don't work properly any more?

Unfortunately I don't have them anymore. I left them behind when I came to Australia from the UK, though they looked to be ok last I saw them, badger brushes, various strange looking tools and even a couple of pads of gold leaf.

[jack620]

Regretably, Roger is not a Rolls Royce trained carriage builder...

No, but we're talking about the back of a cabinet door, not a walnut instrument panel in a Roller. I doubt the same level of skill is required for both jobs.

[EagerBeaver71]

There are still craftsmen out there. Granted, not as thick on the ground as they once were. I hate the term "lost trade."

I think you might have been referring to my comment "Lost art form". If you look up the definition:

noun. : something usually requiring some skill that not many people do any more. Writing letters has become something of a lost art.

I think the phrase holds people in higher esteem and are admired more than those that do not. I know that everything I do, whether it be drawing, painting, wood working, a computer can do it or will be able to do it in the future however it will never be able to do it with a human element or the humanity of a person.

[rustynail]

Off topic, Rusty.

The topic is what Rogerwilco can reasonably be expected to do. Stretch his talents, sure, encourage him to learn new skills, sure, but still restrained by reality.

Regretably, Roger is not a Rolls Royce trained carriage builder, and most of us are not in the top 5% of the various craft spectrums. And he is not considering sub-contracting that job - defeats his DIY ethic.

The topic is fixing tear out with filler. Not what an individual may or may not be capable of. I could not give a flying .... what Rogerwilco's qualifications are. This is a simple project requiring some trial and error tinting. The nice thing about Timbermate is it's ease of removal. He can muck with it to his hearts content. Repeat the process as many times as he wishes until satisfied. If he is unsuccessful he will at least know his limitations. Nothing lost. No damage done. At the moment he is none the wiser. No more skilled than when he woke up this morning thanks to people telling him, "Unfortunately you are not a Rolls Royce trained carriage builder." He doesn't need to be.

[rogerwilco]

Guys, relax!

I scrubbed it out a week ago, and the project is finished! Check the pics over here Blackwood Credenza (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/blackwood-credenza-246186-post2301480#post2301480)

In the end, it’s not a detail I was willing to sweat balls over. I’m probably the only person who will ever know it’s there, being the inside of a cabinet used occasionally. After seal coats and lacquer, it’s hard to see unless you’re looking for it. I can live with this blemish, especially since it is one of only a few imperfections in this build. I like to achieve ‘well executed’ work, but I don’t aim for perfection.

[The Spin Doctor]

Interesting. What is it with people that because They can't do it nobody can? There are still craftsmen out there. Granted, not as thick on the ground as they once were. I hate the term "lost trade." It is just we haven't met them yet. Lost to us maybe but who knows who is out there?
A few years back a chap came to me with a Purdy shot gun that had suffered a deep, long, diagonal scratch to the face of the stock. The gun had been placed behind the front seat of a Landrover on an English pheasant shoot. Some big dood decided he needed the seat pushed back and managed to run the metal seat rail up the stock. It was hideous. My first thought was, "Out of my league." I conveyed this to my prospective customer and he understood. "Do you know anybody?" "Well I did, but he is long gone. You will be hard pressed to find some one these days. Afterall it is a Purdy and should be treated accordingly." He left, taking the shotty with him. My mind went back to those days with Jack (no this is not a poem.) I remembered he had a young son. I wondered what became of him? Chip off the old block maybe? I grabbed the phone book and looked to see if I could find the name.....Jackpot! A quick phone call and I had the right man. Yes, he had done his time with dad and he would have a look at the gun. We both agreed there was nothing to loose. If the job was not up to scratch (pardon the pun) a new stock would be the next port of call.
Long story short. The stock came back perfect. Neither I nor the owner could find a mark. His dad would have been proud.
Nothing nicer than meeting a craftsman better than you.


An example of a mostly lost art. When I was at the British Museum, I got to see first-hand the vase that is attached. They say there is a handful of people today that could even attempt it. It was made 2500 years ago. So, to say it's a lost art is an understatement. I also saw a 12 foot in diameter pink granite bowl made about 4000 years ago in Egypt. It was a perfect partial sphere inside and out. Making a 12 bowl with an inside perfect partial sphere would be dead easy, but outside. That would be bloody hard even today. You won't find a lot of companies that could pull that off today. When I worked in the UK a few years back I'd go to interviews with restorations companies, and I kept being told at job interviews: "we don't see your sort of skills anymore, please come work for us". That statement perplexed me. In my head I'm thinking: This is the UK, your entire country is a museum, how could you not have people that can do old world woodworking... Now I don't think I'm some sort of phenom by any stretch, but I am really good at what I do, but sadly there's not that many following up. The hand crafts seem to be, sadly, dying - quickly.

[The Spin Doctor]

Guys, relax!

I scrubbed it out a week ago, and the project is finished! Check the pics over here Blackwood Credenza (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/blackwood-credenza-246186-post2301480#post2301480)

In the end, it’s not a detail I was willing to sweat balls over. I’m probably the only person who will ever know it’s there, being the inside of a cabinet used occasionally. After seal coats and lacquer, it’s hard to see unless you’re looking for it. I can live with this blemish, especially since it is one of only a few imperfections in this build. I like to achieve ‘well executed’ work, but I don’t aim for perfection.

Are you f&*(in serious. It's the inside of the cabinet door???? I would have said, who cares. Blast the clear coat on and don't worry about it.

EDIT: Should have read the post better. You did say that! LOL

[EagerBeaver71]

The hand crafts seem to be, sadly, dying - quickly.

The only thing I would have to disagree with. If it was dying we would see less and less arts and craft shops... Which were not.

[auscab]

An example of a mostly lost art. When I was at the British Museum, I got to see first-hand the vase that is attached. They say there is a handful of people today that could even attempt it. It was made 2500 years ago.

Are you sure of that Spin ?
Sorry if I'm being picky but you may be thinking of this darker one on the right. Its almost 2000 years old and original.
Here's a link to it. The Portland Vase.

Portland Vase - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Vase)



522696 522697
That Blue one looks a lot Later. Or too perfect ? A Wedgewood copy possibly ? 1760 something or later again.
Or do you have a link to that first one stating its a lot older and I'm wrong ? .

More info on a Wedgewood copy .

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/187784

Wow , what a piece . Specially the original .

Rob