Spraying Kitchen Finishes

[Steveoo]

I have been building our new kitchen and am up to the stage where i need to apply a finish for the doors and end panel (made from satin white finish MDF).
I have fitted it all together to make sure it fits and I was going to unassemble it and paint it.

I have a star 770 and compressor but have only sprayed estapol with it.

What I am after is a satin off white colour that i can get to colour matched to my skirting colour that is of good durability and stain resistance.

Does anyone know what cabinet makers use ?

Even just a name of a paint supply shop in brisbane that sells this sort of stuff would be appreciated.


thanks, Steve W

[echnidna]

Use automotive lacquer.

[normell]

Try Mirotone
<TABLE cellPadding=4 width="77%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width="68%">Brisbane
Mirotone Pty Ltd
679 Progress Rd, Wacol QLD 4076</TD><TD vAlign=bottom width="32%">Ph (07) 3271 1466
Fax (07) 3271 3757</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Will have all you want

[8ball]

Good cabinet makers dont use MDF or paint , they use SOLID HARDWOOD and a fine finish .

sorry , you asked .

[normell]

Good cabinet makers dont use MDF or paint , they use SOLID HARDWOOD and a fine finish .

sorry , you asked .

Who said there were any GOOD cabinet makers here;) :D :eek:

[mickp]

sometimes the cost of materials dictates what a person uses.
I know when I first started most of my money was going on tools and I always seemed to be cutting up plywood.

[journeyman Mick]

Good cabinet makers dont use MDF or paint , they use SOLID HARDWOOD and a fine finish .

sorry , you asked .

I consider myself a pretty good tradesman. Carpenter-Joiner, Cabinetmaker, Shopfitter and Boat joiner. Much as I'd like to do only top end work in solid timber I would like to live a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. Due to lots of different factors (size of market, change in fashions, cheap imported timber furniture, world heritage listing of most of the timber producing country around here etc etc etc) I strive to produce quality work within the constraints of my clients' budgets whilst trying to make a good return on my time and money.

BTW, My wife's grandfather was a cabinetmaker in England. He came from 3 generations of cabinetmakers and antiques dealers in Cheltenham. We've got some pieces that are 100s of years old and they're not all solid hardwood - some are veneered!:eek:

Mick

[rrich]

Steve,
I would suggest a couple of coats of primer, tinted to match the final color. Then a couple of coats of the satin finish and color that you desire. Try to have the surface being sprayed in a horizontal position. (Less sags and runs that way.) I have used a gloss, water based, latex paint in a similar application. It came out great.

FWIW - According to by Brother In Law, who works for a major automotive paint manufacturer, automotive lacquer should not be applied to surfaces that move. (like wood.) Because the automotive lacquer drys hard and will crack when the wood beneath it moves.

[bennylaird]

Painted a model aircraft with it once, great finish over the nylon wing covering until after the first flight when it then had lovely roadmaps all over. However there is a plasticiser additive to help out.

[Steveoo]

8Bull I would love to see a photo of this solid hardwood kitchen you made on your own with a fine finish. - sounds fantastic- hmmmm

For me I thought a more practical approach was in order with my wife being a chef and the kitchen actually going to be used, a french polished carcass made of 300 year old indonesian rainforest really isn't a high priority.

I still really need help on this. I was hoping for a reply from someone who is a kithen builder or spray painter, I know i have read a reply on here from one who is a regular forum nut before.

ps. waiting for the photo

Steve

[echnidna]

Steve,
I would suggest a couple of coats of primer, tinted to match the final color. Then a couple of coats of the satin finish and color that you desire. Try to have the surface being sprayed in a horizontal position. (Less sags and runs that way.) I have used a gloss, water based, latex paint in a similar application. It came out great.

FWIW - According to by Brother In Law, who works for a major automotive paint manufacturer, automotive lacquer should not be applied to surfaces that move. (like wood.) Because the automotive lacquer drys hard and will crack when the wood beneath it moves.

The kitchen is not made of timber, its melamine faced MDF.
mdf moves a very small amount, probably a lot less movement than the steel panels on a car in the hot sun
The best and easiest finish is auto primer surfacer then a colored lacquer topcoat.
If you want a low sheen furniture finish apply a clear furniture lacquer as a final topcoat.
Sand the melamine with say 120 to 150 wet and dry to give the primer a key to bond to. Don't use a very fine paper on the melamine.

[journeyman Mick]

Steve,
I've only ever used automotive (and marine) 2 pack paints for painting car bodies and ply. I'm sure it would be fine for MDF though. I know that Mirotone make a 2 pack specifically for painting on MDF.

Mick

[normell]

The kitchen is not made of timber, its melamine faced MDF.
mdf moves a very small amount, probably a lot less movement than the steel panels on a car in the hot sun
The best and easiest finish is auto primer surfacer then a colored lacquer topcoat.
If you want a low sheen furniture finish apply a clear furniture lacquer as a final topcoat.
Sand the melamine with say 120 to 150 wet and dry to give the primer a key to bond to. Don't use a very fine paper on the melamine.

So echnidna, why is the automotive stuff better than a mirotone type product, that is specifically made for timber.
Is a melamine finish similar to metal.

[echnidna]

Furniture lacquers are clear, not pigmented.
You want a pigmented finish you can't use furniture lacquer

[normell]

Furniture lacquers are clear, not pigmented.
You want a pigmented finish you can't use furniture lacquer

Sorry echnidna, Mirocat IS PIGMENTED not clear
In satin or gloss

[echnidna]

I'll remember that.

[normell]

I'll remember that.

Check here
http://www.mirotone.co.nz/mirocure.html

Normell

[Shane Watson]

You can pigment any clear coating. Mirotone supplies a great range of colours in their pigmented range and they can be tinted to any colour as well.
Cheers!!

[Steveoo]

I spoke to a automotive paint supplier yesterday he said his stuff is the same as mirotones but has better coverage ???
Now I have a small amount of pine (kicks) and it has been posted on here that auto 2pac is unsuitable for timber. On the mirotone web site it states their product is suited for timber.
Is it really the same stuff, is it suited for the pine, and is the mirotone coverage that bad ????
Thanks Steve

[normell]

I spoke to a automotive paint supplier yesterday he said his stuff is the same as mirotones but has better coverage ???
Now I have a small amount of pine (kicks) and it has been posted on here that auto 2pac is unsuitable for timber. On the mirotone web site it states their product is suited for timber.
Is it really the same stuff, is it suited for the pine, and is the mirotone coverage that bad ????
Thanks Steve

So, go with the auto stuff then, but don't complain if it cracks up after a few months.
So how did the paint supplier come up with the better coverage statement.
Iv'e used mirotone on pine & MDF, without a problem.

Normell

[pianoman]

Steve,

Go with mirotone, I see you mention colour matching, they offer a colour matching service which is very good, I have used it a couple of times for piano jobs. Also their products are specifically for the type of job you are doing.I don't think they do anything but wood finishes.You wouldn't fit 4WD tyres to your sports car and expect it to perform to it's best.
Don't worry about the coverage too much, their stuff is pretty good, and if in the effort to save a few bucks (even a $100) it turns out that the auto laquer stuffs up you will be looking at it for a long time. Check with Mirotone to see if you need to use a sanding sealer under the laquer. If you can choose to or not, I would use it.
1. If you don't do a lot of spraying it will give you a chance to get your eye in without wasting your carefully matched colour.
2. It is very forgiving stuff to spray, and it dries quickly enabling you to get a nice build before you apply your colour, therefore getting the job done quicker. I would sand back the sanding sealer with 400 grit paper, you could go on to 600 after if you were really keen but it would be a lot of work. In spraying surface prep is everything Sanding sealer is thick so you will need the tip on your gun to be between 1.6 - 2mm.

Just to clear something up. Is your kitchen made of melamine faced mdf As Echidna assumes it is? If so spraying on melamine is very different from just plain mdf you would need to ask Mirotone about that specifically. Some of the solvents could affect the product.

hope it all goes well.

Pianoman

[mag]

Spraying 2K auto paint on MDF is quite common place. I assume the MDF with Melamime is the panel with one side couated and the other side uncoated.

Generally the paint is applied to the uncoated side, leaving the coated side alone, giving a clean interior for the door without having to colour match inside.

I painted my kitchen in 2K Auto both sides, as I couldnt get hold of the single sided MDF at the time.

Done properly it leaves a brilliant gloss finish of the gun.

[Steveoo]

mag and pianoman the mdf is called 18mm mdf satin white, I got it from a kitchen board cutting service apparently it is what all the cabies use when making 2pac kitchens. It is hmr mdf with a half thickness of melamine on each side with a satin finish ( It still needs a sand to key the 2pac)

There seems to be a couple of pluses to using it. Glossier finish and the face of the board dosn't get fuzzy(and scratched ect) after you have worked and handled it.

Also Pianoman the auto 2pac is actually dearer than mirotone. according to the auto paint dealer who was justifing this with the coverage comment.

Is the mirotone stuff retailed out of the wacol address?????

[pianoman]

Sorry I live in Sydney so I don?t know where to get it in ?Brisvegas?. Mag seems to have had success with 2K auto, so it would seems you could use either. It would be good to get the exact brand from mag, then you know you are using something that has been proven already if you choose to go that way. As I mentioned before Mirotone have an excellent technical help service if you choose to go that way.
Also at the risk of teaching grandma to suck eggs, there are some excellent posts on spraying on this forum. Whatever you spray with watch the moisture content in the air, to high and it can really ruin your day.

[Shane Watson]

Mirotone is probably your better option considering price and ease of use. Auto will give a slightly better finish but at a much greater price. However you also have a FAR wider range of colours and effects available in the auto range such as pearls, metalics etc etc.......

There is no difference in painting MDF or laminated MDF. The preperation is the same. Sure there may be some specialist products on the market for use in painting MDF & also for laminate, but they are not needed.

As for coverage, I actually disagree that auto covers better than mirotone. Having used both for years and painting both MDF & Laminated stuff there really was no difference in the coverage of either product.

I have brought paint directly from the Mirotone warehouse in Wacol, however I had an account with them. You would need to ring them direct to talk about buying direct from them.

What product are you looking at using of mirotones? Is it the Poly-u or the acid cat? Both are capable, but the poly-u is by far the best option as there is little difference to the auto equivilant (technically there is, but as far as use and application on MDF & laminate are concerned) Howver the acid cat is quite a bit different.

Anyway, have fun!

[Pulse]

Steveoo, I've just finished some kitchen cupboards with Mirobild (acid catalysed). I sprayed outside and had a reasonable finish. It can also be wet cut and buffed to a high gloss finish.

I used timber mate to seal the edges and sprayed with an HVLP gun so as not to annoy the neighbours. It dries quickly which makes things quicker. I used the 3720 primer and 3750 topcoat.

Cheers
Pulse

[Steveoo]

I am giving the mirotone poly - u stuff a go this long weekend I will post my results when finished. Thanks to everyone who replied - I wouldn't have known the stuff existed without your posts.

cheers steve

[durwood]

Hi Guys,

My background is in auto paint but I have used several timber paint finishes over the years.

A few points, auto paint is a better quality product and that is part reason for the higher price, as it has to be good enough to resist the ultra violet sun rays, it has in it chemicals to do so ( like sun tan lotions).

If you put furniture lacquer on a car it would only last weeks in the sun.
An good auto clear will last up to 10 years.

You can paint timber just as successfully as metal, the weakest part of the equasion is the timber. If the timber moves (as it does) any paint will crack if the movement is big enough.

MDF can be painted no problem, but make sure you get a primer made for it from a paint manufacurer. if you use auto primers the solvent dissolves the wax coating in the surface of the MDF thats why they have the better quality melanine coated ones. the more stable and smooth the surface the easier it is to get a smooth surface.

I had to get a first class finish on ordinary MDF mirror finish black,
I used auto 2k primer after washing surface with solvent applied a thin coat to get it to soak into the surface then normal coats. Rub with fine paper 800wet and then 2 coats of colour. the better the primer surface the better the finish if you have any faults they will still be in the colour

A colours coverage varies with the colour.

Some colours are lousy usually you need a suitable primer colour. Grey is good for white but hopeless for dark blue or yellow. If you don't use black under maroon you will need several coats to get coverage. The test for coverage is to paint over black and white stripes or checks. You may rember a TV add showing house paint covering over a black/white surface. Good quality paint will always cover as it should if its cheap it probably won't cover well thats why its cheap they left out the good pigment and watered it down.

Good kitchen finishers use polyurethane two pack its the same paint as used on jumbo jets its the hardest strongest paint available. You don't want the wife using scotch brite and gumpson on something which scratches easy. Same as you don't want a jumbo in to be repainted every year. It usually lasts over 10 years doing 700 MPh.

Polyurethane is also sold as marine paint for the same reason hard, salt and scratch resistant finish but usually costs more ( they think you have more money if you own a boat).

I have painted several timber bodied vehicles using auto 2 pack it lasts far better than interior finishes. The hard finish helps protect the timber from marking ( I have two timber bodied cars in the garage, wouldn't use anything else. If you look at clears such as estapol its not really recommended for out side use. Most auto paint colours and clear will last 10 plus years in the sun -think all cars on the road which have had a repair.

Original finish on vehicles is usually baked enamel today the recommended refinish paint is 2 pack to equal the performance. Some repairers even advertise they do baked enamel but you can't bake a car to 200 degress C plus after the glass rubber plastic etc has been put on it. They are force drying it to 60 C in a baking booth/oven. but the hardener cures the paint to a baked enamel equivelent finish.

[martrix]

A Brilliant and informative post!
A greenie for youhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

[redwood]

Good cabinet makers dont use MDF or paint , they use SOLID HARDWOOD and a fine finish .

sorry , you asked .


No offence, but cabinet makers mainly use MDF, furniture makers use solid timbers;)

[redwood]

Hi Guys,

My background is in auto paint but I have used several timber paint finishes over the years.

.


:D :D greenie sent :D :D I have just pasted that info into my little (well not so little) info- folder to keep as reference:D :D

[normell]

Hi Guys,

My background is in auto paint but I have used several timber paint finishes over the years.

A few points, auto paint is a better quality product and that is part reason for the higher price, as it has to be good enough to resist the ultra violet sun rays, it has in it chemicals to do so ( like sun tan lotions).

I had to get a first class finish on ordinary MDF mirror finish black,
I used auto 2k primer after washing surface with solvent applied a thin coat to get it to soak into the surface then normal coats. Rub with fine paper 800wet and then 2 coats of colour. the better the primer surface the better the finish if you have any faults they will still be in the colour

A colours coverage varies with the colour.

Some colours are lousy usually you need a suitable primer colour. Grey is good for white but hopeless for dark blue or yellow. If you don't use black under maroon you will need several coats to get coverage. The test for coverage is to paint over black and white stripes or checks. You may remember a TV add showing house paint covering over a black/white surface. Good quality paint will always cover as it should if its cheap it probably won't cover well thats why its cheap they left out the good pigment and watered it down.

Good kitchen finishers use polyurethane two pack its the same paint as used on jumbo jets its the hardest strongest paint available. You don't want the wife using scotch brite and gumpson on something which scratches easy. Same as you don't want a jumbo in to be repainted every year. It usually lasts over 10 years doing 700 MPH.

Hi Durwood
When you say that you have used timber finishes, were any of them Mirotone ??

With mirotone, you only need a sanding sealer, a quick sand, then ONE coat of colour, then a couple of top coats to get a excellent mirror finish, that is strong and durable.

Normell

[durwood]

Hi Normell,
yes I have used Mirotone as well as Wattyl and several others who also make sanding sealer etc. The sanding sealer then clear method you describe is the normal lacquer industrial way of painting timber.
All comercial timber finishes used to be done this way TV cabinets furniture etc, main reason its quick drys fast (dust free in a minuite or less) and can be reworked any time if damaged.

Trouble is when you say a company or a product it often doesn't mean much most companies get bought out by others and products get replaced by that companies most profitable line. Where there used to be 12-15 Auto paint companies they have been reduced to 2. They also have to keep changing product due to pollution laws.

Mirotone still is the original company I think, but other big ones such as Brolite and Lusteroid have been swallowed up so a product you buy now may be their formula instead.

Lacquer as I said is not up to par for auto work put it on a Jaguar wood dash and it would be stuffed in 6 months. Its only been in the last 10 years that clear has been of good enough quality to stand up for more than 2 -3 years. in Australian weather. Auto trade used to make a fortune repainting metallic finishes on vehicles which packed up in a year or two. Rolls Royce Australia painted their cars here before giving them to the customers because the Pommie paint didn't last the waranty period.

If you use lacquer keep it inside and away from direct sunlight. I have a desk chair which was lacquered which it now needs reclearing after only about 8 years because the wife put it near a window.

By all means use lacquer but if you want to the finish to last and to use it for every day use then something better quality is needed. I also use shellac often which as you know won't even take a hot cup its what should go on original antique pieces but not on the kitchen pine table you use every day.

[powerbuff]

Could I just get a spray can to do a small panel?

Would the results be ok?

Anybody attempted this?

[Master Splinter]

I've used the cheapie $2.00 (or less on special!!) spray cans of enamel from Super-Cheap Auto for doing MDF bits and pieces around kitchens (kickpanels, patch panels to hide the #&#37;$@$^&!!ing mess the plumber left in the back of the cupboard, trim bits under top cupboards and so on).

- And they have worked fine. Five years and counting.

Undercoat - -> enamel - - > quick rub with 600-1200 grit wet n' dry and buffing compound = near enough to piano finish for a kitchen.

Exception - one bit that got a lot of steam from kettle got water damaged, but the damaged side wasn't painted (duuuuh). Replacement got painted with West Epoxy as a waterproofer before painting, and I haven't had a reoccurence of the problem.

(this is what you do when you are too lazy to shlep out the compressor and spraygun)

[becr]

Hi, Im a novice trying to improve my home.
I live in an apartment building about 8 years old. The kitchen cupboards are too dark. I think I want to 2 Pac them white. They are not timber. Does anyone know what they could be. I guess I could find a cabinent maker or a car sprayer. If anyone could suggest a cabinent maker willing to do a relatively small job (15 cupboards) or a car sprayer or if you have any ideas on how to proceed in changing the colour of colours, that would be very helpful. CLose to Sydney CBD or North Shore
Thank you.
Bec.

[gthome]

:2tsup: :2tsup: :2tsup:



My background is in auto paint but I have used several timber paint finishes over the years.


Durwood

Couple of ball tearer posts there. I wish I was smart and experienced enough to take all that information in. I just know that some time in the future, when finishing a job, that I will be kicking myself that I did not understand all of the points you were trying to make.

Question:- Is there any outfit that you would recommend in Sydney where I could simply front up, tell them what I am trying to achieve and be satisfied that they have enough knowledge ( ie enough to satisfy you) to simply accept their recommendation, stump up the cash and take home their product in the knowledge that I have the best product ( ie not the one they want to sell) for the task at hand.

Regards

GT