Table saws & timber

[Hardwood Hacker]

Hi all,
My first piece of correspondence. I have negotiated $1,100 for the ST 250 table saw from Hare&Forbes in Nth Parramatta. Is it still the best one for the price with the sliding table?

Also, are there any updates on where to source cheap high quality hardwood for the average hacker? Trend is not exactly cheap! and anagote is miles away and seems to be dearer.:confused:

Q: Why dont timber suppliers in Sydney join the forum and try to offer the punters any deals or advertise?:confused:

For those of you out there who want decent size burls for coffee tables, there is a guy on the highway just past Lithgow before the Mobil service station on the right hand side (you will need to chuck a ewey - no offence intended for those from NZ). He has some good burls at a pretty reasonable price if you are ever in the neighbourhood (with luggage room).:D
I like the smily faces!!!:) :rolleyes: :cool: :p ;) :D :confused: :o :eek: :( :mad:

Quotable quote - if you haven't got schitsophrenia these days then you're just not thinking clearly enough!

[craigb]

any updates on where to source cheap high quality hardwood

Well I think you can have cheap or high quality but not both. :p

Unfortunately, timber is expensive.

I think there is a mob out at North Richmond that AlexS uses. I haven't tried them myself. With a bit of luck Alex will jump in with their details.

Welcome by the way. :)

[silentC]

And of course there is Ironwood in (what's the name of that place between Anandale and Roselle?). Recycled.

[AlexS]

Try Canalpie Timbers, North Richmond. Do a search on these forums for ore details. Also Mathews at St. Marys.

As Craig says, good timber is expensive, but some places are more expensive than others.

[Hardwood Hacker]

Thanks lads! Anyone out there with any thoughts on table saws???

[craigb]

Thanks lads! Anyone out there with any thoughts on table saws???

I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time :p ) but I would say that the most popular TS with the members of this BB is the TSC-10HB that Carbatec sell.

I know I like mine. :)

[inferno6688]

I just bought my TS. I looked and compared for ages the machines from both Carbatec and Hafco. i was initially going to the Hafco SB10 (pretty much a St250 without a sliding), but ended up blowing the budget and getting a 10HB! :D

If u actually openup the cabinet and look inside the difference in quality is HUGE!

I HIGHLY recommend u seriously consider the 10HB.
Is there a particular reason ur after a sliding table? U can alway add a sliding to the 10HB in the future if u really need one, or join the Triton sliding table to it.

[Hardwood Hacker]

I found on the weekend a timber guy near the corner of Windsor Rd and the road leading to riverstone in NW Sydney. They have a pretty decent range of timber and their Jarrah is apparently fairly cheap at the moment as they recently overordered for the new Woolworths Head Office in Norwest.

With regard to the Carbatec TSC-10HB, what is the likely price of the sliding attachment? I use the sliding table to get ends of coffee tables and other rough pieces etc square.

[silentC]

More than it's worth if you ask me. There's nothing you can do with a sliding table that you can't do with a crosscut sled at a fraction of the price and when you don't need it, it's not in the way.

Of course others will disagree, but we know what they say about opinions, don't we ;)

[Rocker]

SilentC,

You took the words out of my mouth. I love my crosscut sleds - I have three, one narrow-kerfed, one wide-kerfed, and one for cutting 45° mitres.

Rocker

[Timmy]

More than it's worth if you ask me. There's nothing you can do with a sliding table that you can't do with a crosscut sled at a fraction of the price and when you don't need it, it's not in the way.


Silent C,

Sorry to drag this post back, but what is a "sliding sled"

Cheers
Tim

[craigb]

To answer for Mr C, ;)

A Crosscut sled is a shop made jig. Basically it's a piece of MDF or ply attached to hardwood or plastic runners that run in the mitre slots of your saw.

A front and rear fence runs across the board. You align the rear fence to be 90 degrees to your blade and presto, perfectly square crosscuts every time.

There's a few examples in the archives that members have made. Try a search. Especially for Rocker's crosscut sled.

[Greg Q]

More than it's worth if you ask me. There's nothing you can do with a sliding table that you can't do with a crosscut sled at a fraction of the price and when you don't need it, it's not in the way.

Of course others will disagree, but we know what they say about opinions, don't we ;)

Of course others will disagree, that's what we do.

I have a sliding table combination machine-the outrigger is detachable, as are the fences, and they take up no more room than a sled when on the wall. There is a difference in accuracy and repeatability, and cutting sheetgoods on the slider is safe and easy. I've tried both, and I would be very unhappy to go back to a sled. It IS a fraction of the price, though.

David Marks, of the TV show "Woodworks" uses a cross cut sled in the show, but owns a combination machine in real life. As do many of the FWW editors who wrote the table saw book and other titles.

Greg

[Rocker]

Greg,

I would not dispute that, for cutting sheet goods, a sliding table is ideal, and a crosscut sled is virtually useless. But, for working with solid timber, I cannot see how a well-made crosscut sled need be inferior in accuracy or repeatability. For repeatability, all you need to do is to clamp a stop to the sled, and, so long as there no slop in the runners, the sled should be just as accurate.

Rocker

[Groggy]

I think you two are fighting the same side of the argument without realising it. My reading over the years has given me the distinct impression that sliding tables (not the Triton) are best for sheet goods. However, greatest accuracy <600mm wide can be consistently achieved with a well made sled.

I think this is due to the mechanical joints of the sliding table vs the relatively few moving parts of a sled. If you have a high end slider, such as a Felder, then it would most probably be the equal of the sled.

That said, unless a zero clearance insert is used with the slider, the sled will provide a better quality cut, since it is effectively a sliding zero clearance plate itself.

[journeyman Mick]

.............That said, unless a zero clearance insert is used with the slider, the sled will provide a better quality cut, since it is effectively a sliding zero clearance plate itself.

Unless of course you have a saw with a scriber blade which negates the need for a ZCI for the purpose of preventing the bottom of the board splintering.

Mick (who has a huge sliding table saw with a scriber and feels he needs to gloat about it now and then:D )

[Groggy]

Mick (who has a huge sliding table saw with a scriber and feels he needs to gloat about it now and then:D )A very clever mule you are Mick (smart a**) :D:D:D. I have the slide table but not the scriber :( . If necessary I can go to a friends shop and use his very large Felder. Your setup would be great if I had the room.

[Greg Q]

Groggy...it doesn't take up much room. My Felder combo has a small footprint, as it only sports a 2M slider. Yeah, it has a scriber, and yes indeed, I am very fortunate to own it. :)

There is a Griggio panel saw on ebay right now-for 4 or 5K you'd have a serious saw to pass down to your kids. And theirs.

I expect my Felder to outlast the world's supply of hardwoods.:(

Greg

[journeyman Mick]

.............I expect my Felder to outlast the world's supply of hardwoods.:(

Greg

I expect my saw will probably see out my working days (although I could be persuaded to upgrade to one with electronically set rip fence and cross cut stops :rolleyes: ) I've been collecting timber for a while now (got about 5M3) and at current rate of usage my supply of timber outstrips my supply of time.:(

Mick the time impoverished

[Greg Q]

If I found refrigerator sized chunk of whale vomit I'd be thinking about a Martin. It's nice to have dreams, isn't it?

Greg

[journeyman Mick]

Greg,
what's a Martin? Automobile, Plane, Saw - what? Post some pics or links if you can.

Mick

[Greg Q]

Greg,
what's a Martin? Automobile, Plane, Saw - what? Post some pics or links if you can.

Mick

All of those things. Aston-Martin....., the wonderful Martin Mars flying boat,
and best of all, the Martin panel saw. Best saw in the world, and priced like it.

Here's their usa website:

http://www.martin-usa.com/

don't get any drool on the screen;)

[Greg Q]

I spoke to a guy in Melbourne who worked in a shop that had all 1970's Martin and a brand new Altendorf-he said the old Martins made the A-dorf look silly.

A fellow that I correspond with in California just upgraded from a three year old A-dorf Elmo to a T-73 and the planer and thicknesser. He is rapt.

German eBay has them from time to time, if you know somebody there with a machinery moving business and a sturdy boat. The saws made in the '70s look like direct descendants of the Panzer tank.

Martin techs routinely speak of easily and permanently adjusting the slider to within 0.001" over the full 3.4 Meter throw.

I think the basic saws are us$ 45,000.

[Greg Q]

If I found refrigerator sized chunk of whale vomit I'd be thinking about a Martin. It's nice to have dreams, isn't it?

Greg


For those of you puzzled by the above reference, an Adelaide, SA couple found a 14.2 kg chunk of ambergris on the beach a couple of days ago, This is sperm whale vomit, and highly prized by the people who make fine fragrances. The news reports say they were expecting close to a million for this find. Why can't whales ever vomit on me? I'm never lucky that way.:(

[Groggy]

Why can't whales ever vomit on me? I'm never lucky that way.:(Tell you what Greg. Find a female whale and we'll take her to a bar for an evening out. I can guarantee she'll vomit on me. No really, I'm good at this, it's been the story of my life...

[Greg Q]

LOL.actually, ROFLMAO.:D
Story of my life, too. When my wife and I used to both work at the same salt mines, co-workers would look at her, then at me, then walk away , shaking their heads, muttering "I just don't get it".:cool:

BTW, this stuff comes from Sperm whales only. What is a female sperm whale called? It seems like an oxymoronic situation.;)

[AlexS]

Apparently the thing that makes them vomit is squid beaks.

Figures, I've spent a few squid on drinks for women in my young days, with the same effect.:D

[redwood]

More than it's worth if you ask me. There's nothing you can do with a sliding table that you can't do with a crosscut sled at a fraction of the price and when you don't need it, it's not in the way.

Of course others will disagree, but we know what they say about opinions, don't we ;)

For solid timber a sliding table is a must. If you are making a table, or sideboard top or any panel, their is no better way at all than putting your boards on and ripping a clean straight accurate edge, super quick, then straigth to the glue/clamp up.

Of course others will disagree, but we know what they say about opinions, don't we :D


.

[silentC]

For solid timber a sliding table is a must.
Bollocks!


If you are making a table, or sideboard top or any panel, their is no better way at all than putting your boards on and ripping a clean straight accurate edge, super quick, then straigth to the glue/clamp up.
You haven't explained why you can't do that with a crosscut sled. Maybe YOU can't because you only have one mitre slot :D

[journeyman Mick]

Silent,
never used a crosscut sled myself (my saw doesn't have any mitre slots!) but I imagine you'd be limited in the length of the sled you could use. I can joint a board 3M long on my saw, I'm guessing that it might be a bit of a stretch to build a sled capable of that;) . Now I'm not suggesting everyone has the room, need or budget for an industrial panel saw but there's just no comparison between them (nor should there be)

Mick

[silentC]

OK, I was in a bit a &&&&& strirring mood this morning. But... we are talking about the little add on type sliding tables that you can get for your cabinet saw, not the big job that is integral to a decent panel saw. There's no doubt that you can do a lot more on your panel saw than I can do on mine with a crosscut sled - but that's not a fair comparison.

What I am saying is that if you have a cabinet saw like most of us have got, there is little, if any, value in adding a sliding table to it because it won't give you anything that a decent set of crosscut sleds will not.

Yes there is a limit to the length of a crosscut that can be made. It is limited by the depth of the sled and you probably wouldn't want to go much over a metre. If you are working in solid timber, I doubt there would be many occasions you would need to crosscut a panel that big.

[journeyman Mick]

Crossed wires methinks. I think Redwood was talking about an industrial type sliding table as he speaks of using it to edge joint boards for a table before gluing up. I think most of the add on units will only go about 1250 which is a bit short for a table.

Mick

[silentC]

Indeed. This is the original question to which I was responding:


With regard to the Carbatec TSC-10HB, what is the likely price of the sliding attachment? I use the sliding table to get ends of coffee tables and other rough pieces etc square.

[journeyman Mick]

Aaaah, lots of crossed wires then. I'll just slink away quietly then:o . (but I did manage to get a good gloat in ;) )

Mick

[silentC]

Yes Mick, it's a lovely saw. Wish I had one. :(

[Groggy]

What I am saying is that if you have a cabinet saw like most of us have got, there is little, if any, value in adding a sliding table to it because it won't give you anything that a decent set of crosscut sleds will not.Bollocks! You answered your own statement with the next. Also, a typical crosscut sled will reduce the depth of cut by 12mm. My sliding table allows me to safely cut a full panel - by myself. Ease of handling big sheets is a definite plus though.


(Someone pass me a spoon, I'v snapped the one I've got stirring too hard. :p)

[redwood]

yes crossed wirers:o i was talking a 2.4 min travel then it is a must. but anything under that id have a sled anyday, the little ones are only good for c/cutting table tops or 600mm+ panells. sleds are just so versatile, they are a must. anyway a 2.4 mt long sled for the small cabinet saws is possible and in the past i have used them and are very accurate. get a piece of good quality ply 2.4 x 300 and attatch a single runner underneath it, put a stop at one end with the sharp points of screws protruding so it grips the end of the board to be ripped. you will need an outfeed table with corasponding slot cut for it to run through properly with out tipping , and just place your board onto it with some folded sandpaper under it for grip and push it through taking of a tiny bit of the edge. its surprisingly very accurate and beats handling a long board on the jointer:D :D

[silentC]

You answered your own statement with the next
But there is also a limit to the length of crosscut you can do with an add on sliding table, is there not?


a typical crosscut sled will reduce the depth of cut by 12mm
My saw has a 75mm depth of cut and the sled reduces this to about 60mm. I have yet to find myself needing to crosscut anything of that thickness, although I suppose it is a possibility. In that eventuality, I would use a circular saw and a guide, ot the SCMS for narrow lengths.

I say again - the add on sliding table for the TSC10-HB would cost more than it's worth (in my opinion) because it wont allow me to do anything that I can't do with a $10 crosscut sled.

Now let's have no more debate on the matter. You know I am right!

Hey, what happened to that Hardwood Hacker fellow anyway?

[Groggy]

Now let's have no more debate on the matter. You know I am right!

Hey, what happened to that Hardwood Hacker fellow anyway?The whirld's gone nuts. Half an hour ago it was an oppressive 39 deg. Suddenly the heavens opened and now we are in the midst of a biblical deluge (http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.loop.shtml#image) (thats me in the crosshairs). On top of that you start with this "You know I am right" caper. The day is going to the dogs.

I'm off to use my sliding table - just 'cuz I can, so there. Think I might crosscut a 1.4m panel, cut it in half and make TWO sleds :D:D:D.

[silentC]

I think the bad weather is heading this way. Humidity just shot up by 50% and it's getting a bit dark outside.

I just looked up this sliding panel attachment on the Carbatec site and it goes for $595. Looks pretty neat. I might buy one!

[Felder]

Hey! What's going on??:confused:

I step away from my computer for a few hours to rip up a few 3600mm sheets before cross-cutting them to a maximum of 3200mm all with a maximum cutting height of 155mm on a Format-4 Kappa 450 (second best brand of table saw in the market today IMHO;)) that I have lying around here to come back and find you guys talking table saws!!

Now it would seem the conversation is all done and dusted and I didn't manage to sneak in a plug anywhere!:p

Lucky some of you still mentioned us......:D:D:D:cool:

[outback]

OK Felder just to make you happy. I'll give ya the $595 Silen talks of for the panel saw you talk of, just to keep you happy.


Geez, what ya have to do to keep the piece round here. :eek:

[redwood]

Hey! What's going on??:confused:

(second best brand of table saw in the market today IMHO;))



And we all know the best ey;) But we wont mention the "other" brand :cool:

[Felder]

OK Felder just to make you happy. I'll give ya the $595 Silen talks of for the panel saw you talk of, just to keep you happy.


Geez, what ya have to do to keep the piece round here. :eek:
Wow - thanks Outback! What's the catch?? Do I have to send you something in return:confused::confused:

Oh yeah - the panel saw. Deal's off!

[Felder]

And we all know the best ey;) But we wont mention the "other" brand :cool:
Greg has already mentioned them.......Martin.

Beeeeaaauuuutiful saws. Pricey though......

They don't have a distributor in Oz at the moment though. Didn't stop one of my potential clients flying to Germany though to buy one.....

[woodhog]

It appears I overlooked the sliding table topic as a newcomer posting. Personally I would like a cabinet saw with a power feed unit attached who wouldnt? I worked in a factory that went out of business with both cabinet saws & computerized panel saws. Obviously these might be out of most persons budjets. I'll need to find the ad in my magazine box..There is however a long metal & wood saw horse like devise that uses cam operated clamps to hold your wood up to a full sheet of plywood & a special guide fitted to a handheld circular saw base to make straight or even angled cuts accurately without the use of a table saw or sliding jig. This same jig ect can be used with a router for jointing the edge of a board with a router having higher rpm = smoother jointed edge. Maybe my info will help someone somewhere after all I spent some time typing it lol. Basically I cannot choose a saw or accessory for you or anyone a lot of it is personal preference after researching & sorting out garbage produced by some companies. I do have many thoughts & opinions on table saws. 1st will it be thrown in a truck? 2nd if not I would look the accessories that can be used with it. 3. Small thin aluminum table tops with mini miter slots can be limiting depending what you expect from the machine. I prefer a cast iron top with solid extension wings VS rectangle holes on extension wings & a standard / universal miter slot dimension maybe a t slot depending on available accessories to be used on the machine. 4. belt driven VS heavy duty circular saw brush type motor mounted upside down. Crawl underneath the saw display unplugged & look. Mine is an older & larger heavy duty direct drive motor some others are not. Basically both can do "most of the work" just fine if you understand the machines limitations & capacities & dont exeed them constantly during use provided its a reasonable quality machine to begin with. Being realistic not everyone can afford a $1500.00 professional cabinet saw requiring a forklift to move. There are some online reviews & magazine issues I have seen comparing models upsides/downsides of several machines. I'll have to do a search for them if you like. Fence quality, adjusting knobs might be wiggly or cheap & the red blade insert can be annoying when looking for a saw, some inserts are too thin & are not flush / flat with the tables surface. Some fences on displays may slip even though they are "locked" in place. I'm sure some displays are not set up & fine tuned properly either. I have an older delta cast iron top saw with its origional brushes it has a heavy duty 15 amp direct drive motor & it works great. Some table saws I dont know which models ect may have poor bearings affecting the cutting performence a little. One motor type is just a bit noisier depending on saw blades & wood type being cut ect & capacitor motor in my opinion might be quieter when listening to each motor side by side spinning alone without cutting any wood at all & might be easier to replace / remove & have repaired if needed. I wear good quality hearing protectors over my ears & personally dont worry about the noise level lol. Motor brushes are might be less expensive & easier to replace than a capacitor though. There is cog tooth belt on my model similiar to a cars timing belt I've never had to replace it yet or the brushes in 15yrs & I use my saw a lot with oak & other woods in general.
I hope this helps. Happy saw hunting there are a few nice quality budget minded saws out there.
Ah yes...The factory blade that comes with the saw might be good enough for some general all purpose cutting again this is personal preference. You can always make a workshop wall clock with it. lol

[Greg Q]

yes crossed wirers:o i was talking a 2.4 min travel then it is a must. but anything under that id have a sled anyday, the little ones are only good for c/cutting table tops or 600mm+ panells. :D :D

Au contraire, mon frere. As I mentioned, I have a 2M slider, and as a balance of utility and real estate it is great. I also have a 3.4M slider for my slider-a Felder innovation that gives you long rip ability when required. The advantage here is that gets stowed 362 days/year when not needed.

Since I mentioned Martin, I think it only fair to go on record that I agree with Brendan that the Format4 is also excellent. Too bad my investment strategy is "buy high, sell low":(

[redwood]

Greg why i mentioned 2.4 is because that seems to be the length of the most requested tables i get. if their was to be a strikt min for me, 2mt would be it. 1.8mt table is like a 900mm wide belt sander, they are in no mans land, to big for general use and to small for tables. Iv never used a Martin or Felder, but have used a Hammer and thats what i wanted to take to it with. best saw iv ever used and it still gives me wet dreams is the F45:D mabey i might win lotto tonight:D

[Felder]

Greg why i mentioned 2.4 is because that seems to be the length of the most requested tables i get. if their was to be a strikt min for me, 2mt would be it. 1.8mt table is like a 900mm wide belt sander, they are in no mans land, to big for general use and to small for tables. Iv never used a Martin or Felder, but have used a Hammer and thats what i wanted to take to it with. best saw iv ever used and it still gives me wet dreams is the F45:D mabey i might win lotto tonight:D

Next time your in Sydney give me a call, redwood! I would love to hear your opinion of a Format-4 saw after you've seen one.;):D
I might even let you touch it.:D:D:D

BTW - I'm not trying to take anything away from Altendorf (except sales). Full credit to them for providing an excellent quality saw for many years. Although I personally believe that they are not the best saw on the market at the moment, I don't think anyone would be making a mistake by purchasing one.:o