Tablesaw Feeding

[LineLefty]

Hi all,

I have a specific question for all those experienced users regarding feed technique and stance.

I've read as many books as I can get my hands on, all the websites I can find (lots) and many forum posts yet when I can to rip a 600x200mm piece of 9mm mdf in half yesterday, I was still not exactly sure of the safest technique.

Attached are two scenarios:

Scenario 1 shows me standing on the left side (non-fence side) of the blade with my left hand applying pressure to keep the stock against the fence. my right hand feeds the woork through the blade.

Scenario 2 shows me standing behind the fence on the right side of the blade. Featherboard applying fencward pressure. Right hand feeding stock with hands/push block.

Which of these, is the correct technuique? If any? Which technique do you use?

It's this sort of fine, yet basic detail that authors and so caleld "experts" leave out of their books. The two demonstrations I've seen had one bloke pulling the work from the back of the saw and the other using an offcut as a pushstick :(


I've attached the images and also (trying) the powerpoint so you can move the little symbols if need be.

[ozwinner]

You would have to be a spaz to push the timber through in most of your drawings.

Just do what ever feels comfortable..
With push sticks of course.

Al :confused:

[LineLefty]

Al,

Thats why I'm asking, I dont want to be a spaz, I want to do it right.

[Auld Bassoon]

What Ozwinner has said - never, ever, go around and pull stuff through.

I always aim to have my hands a minimum of 100mm from the blade; never push directly in line with the blade - the timber could crack/split, a push stick could slip, etc. In any case once the stock has engaged the blade, it shouldn't need any pressure to hold it against the fence.

Similarly, I always stand anywhere but directly behind the blase or the stock - if it kicks back - smile for the camera!

Cheers!

[Gumby]

Scenario 1.

Standing to left of blade, left hand puts pressure towards the fence, right hand feeds timber.

And in Tassie, other hand holds beer can.:D :D

Whatever you do, just don't stand behind the timber :eek:

[LineLefty]

In any case once the stock has engaged the blade, it shouldn't need any pressure to hold it against the fence.
Cheers!

Really?

[ozwinner]

Really?

Just as well you asked isnt it..??

Al :)

[Mick C.]

I use the attitude that if u use common sence, and use the correct aids, like push sticks, feather boards etc, and u should stand in a manner that is comfortable and lets u feel natural and in control, then u should b fine. I think that standing to far off to the side makes it feel unsafe and unnatural..... Each to their own! :)

[echnidna]

Scenario 1.
My power switch is on the left side of the saw so I don't have to worry about timber in the cut line if I want to shut down quick.

My hands don't go within a foot of the blade.
(get bitten once and you soon lose the 100mm is safe enough mentality)
Sometimes I use 2 pushsticks,
1 for feeding the other to hold timber against the fence
I don't reach past the spinning blade to hold or retrieve timber

I always stand with left foot forward and right foot behind so If I fall over it should be away from the saw.

[LineLefty]

Bob,

So when you're pushing the stock through the blade, where is the right hand/push stick? on the fence side or the other?

[ozwinner]

I always use 2 push sticks too, same a Bob, mine are 600mm long.
You should see the nicks in them..
600mm is as close as I want to get to high speed tungsten....

Al :eek:

[echnidna]

on the fence side.
Its got a rounded heel and I don't hold it against my palm. If you use a thin straight stick nestled against the heel of your palm a kickback may force the stick into your palm through your skin.

[ozwinner]

Get a bandsaw lefty, less chance of kickback.

Al :cool:

[LineLefty]

The bloke that agisted his TS with me also lent me a bandsaw. A tiny 7.5 inch ryobi jobbie. Not much good other than cutting up pine shapes for kiddies toys.

I doubt I'll ask it to resaw this Karri I've got lying around.

Bob,

Far be it from me to contradict you, but are you not reaching over the blade as you push the stock through? You're OK with this?

[redwood]

Lefty, Scenario 1 is correct, theirs not much to add. The demo you seen with a bloke pulling it out the back is correct, its called "tailing out" common in cabinet shops. The other thing is ripping. most fences have a secondry fence that can be slid back and foward. when ripping solid timber slide the secondry fence back so it finishes where the blade stops. I prefer it at the center of the blade, others where it finishes, some saw mills like it right at the start, it stops any chance of the timber binding. push stick is a must but not the long plastic crap that comes with a saw, and using 2 at the same time is dangerous:eek: as far as im concerned. and my rule on hand distance from the blade is around 20mm (good for me, but i dont expect others to follow) some have said 100mm - to far away, you lose control to easy. the other issue is blade height and that is a whole thread in its self:D

[MajorPanic]

Since a hand injury quite a few years ago I use feather boards quite a lot now. :rolleyes: :cool: :cool:

They should be positioned within a few mm of the front edge of the blade to give maximum pressure for the longest time timber is being cut. This gives the saw operator the opportunity to concentrate on a constant feed rate parallel with the saw blade but without the danger of your hand coming in contact with the blade. eg; push sticks. What you are NOT doing is trying to push in 2 directions at once. (against the fence & forward) http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

[E. maculata]

Featherboards or pressure roller would be the go for you Adam, if you feel uncomfortable using the saw this way, stop turn the saw off and play with fence side, stance head tilt and so forth. Basically find a technique that you are comfortable with and go from there, i've worked with dozens of benchmen, a few of them real honest to goodness sawyers, & the only real common denominator is unless facing up the timber, we never stand in direct line with the flitch, even my 8 year old daughter knows that. (actually she's a great little tailor-out):) but then apparently so was her Mum by her teen years.

[MurrayD99]

OK, I'll be bold. I have never had a kickback in my life and I know my father never did either. That's about 75 years using table saws. Both of us would stand in a position to control the stock and that means on the right of the blade between the blade and the fence, using the left hand to move the offcut out of the way. This mightn't be safe according to OSHA but I reckon you can get into a lot of trouble standing too far off to one side. I guess I'll be attacked by the saw next time I use it now....

[redwood]

OK, I'll be bold. I have never had a kickback in my life and I know my father never did either. That's about 75 years using table saws. Both of us would stand in a position to control the stock and that means on the right of the blade between the blade and the fence, using the left hand to move the offcut out of the way. This mightn't be safe according to OSHA but I reckon you can get into a lot of trouble standing too far off to one side. I guess I'll be attacked by the saw next time I use it now....

Same, never had a kick back in 20 years, add that to murray and his dad and its 95 years with out a kickback, and i do it the same way except im on the left, and start to think fat push stick with stock under 50mm width.

[MurrayD99]

..... and start to think fat push stick with stock under 50mm width.

Right, absolutely.... the push stick hangs off the saw so there is no excuse for not using it. You know, bandsaws worry me more than table saws... and skilsaws, I think, are just plain nasty - probably related to tiger snakes, not that we have anything like that here in Godzone..

[Hugh Reid]

I don't think i heard you properly Redwood, 20mm??????, Check your ruler, you're headin for trouble.
Linelefty - there's a book by Ian Kirby that's well worth the money
The Accurate Tablesaw (pretty sure, but it's deffinately Kirby)
He's big on safety, stance, keeping fingers, stuff like that.
Sometimes two pushsticks are good, sometimes one. Just don't stand directly behind it, and don't put flesh anywhere near blade.
20 mm , F--- Me, that's a worry
Hugh

[MurrayD99]

...20 mm , F--- Me, that's a worry
Hugh

Er... 20 years, 50 m/m were the figures..... 20m/m would be "dicing"....

[Rusty]

Hey, Lefty;
Not sure how to advise a southpaw on this- what's comfortable for me probably isn't for you. It seems you have all the do's and don'ts pretty well sussed, perhaps it's time to make a few cuts and see what feels right?

My basics:
-stand offside, not inline with the stock;
-feed long pieces with both hands until pushsticks/tailing out necessary; get assistance if possible;
-blade low on all operations (subject to review);
-never look along line of spinning blade without safety glasses;
-saw always off when adjusting fence.

Practice body awareness- know where both hands are at all times; stand straight with even weight distribution (Echnidna's foot placement is a good tip), and keep the area around your saw free from obstructions and tripping hazards. Stick to light beer, and NEVER, EVER HURRY.

Have a go. You'll be right.;)

Regards
Rusty.

[keith53]

Scenario 1.

Standing to left of blade, left hand puts pressure towards the fence, right hand feeds timber.

This is how I do it and I haven't had any problems to date. Also, just remember to have your push stick handy so you can maintain the progress of the cut without stopping. If you stop during the cut, you risk getting friction burns on the workpiece by having the wood in the one place too long.

Cheers,
Keith

[LineLefty]

Thanks for the replies all.

I made a few more cuts last night and, being a lefty, I just cant get comfortable with Scenario 1. If stand on the left, the my non-dominant right hand is reaching over the blade when I push the stock through.

It seems much more natural for me to use a featherboard (I paid $15 bucks for one from timbecon and the mitreslot locks are atrociuos), stand behind the fence and feed with my left hand.

That means my right hand isnt being used so if I chop one off, I've got a spare.

Seriously though, I also made a sturdee push block (link to come) which seems the bees nees for short stuff.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=8047

[redwood]

Er... 20 years, 50 m/m were the figures..... 20m/m would be "dicing"....

Well actualy Murry, i have no problem having my fingers 20mm from the blade. iv been doing it that wat ever since i can remember and still have all my digits.

Im totaly confortable where the blade is compared to my fingers and totaly aware of the type of timber being pushed through if i need to be more cautious. case hardend timber will jam and you can tell pretty quick if your ripping some, flat sawn can twist so im always thinking of that, its horses for courses.

if im pushing ply through im even im still comfortable with my fingers 10-15mm from the blade. Im in the have your gullet just clearing the timber camp, so their isnt much exposed blade for me to worry about.

the reference to 50mm was anything over in width im also (shock horror to all you reading it) comfortable with pushing my hand inbetween the blade and fence. as i said 20 years n still 10 fingers. but when the timber width gets to 50 and below i use my push stick. moral for me is not to be scared at all, but respect what is in front of you.

I wont even begin to tell you all how i use my cross cut sled:eek: ill freak yous out:D

EDIT-- I agree with silent. my way is for ME and i wouldnt advocate that method to anyone especialy inexperienced woodworkers. Keep 100mm away like everyone has said and when you gain experience then you will know your limits

[silentC]

I'm similar to you there Redwood. Fairly comfortable with that kind of proximity in certain situations. However, I wouldn't normally be advocating it, or even discussing it in a thread posted by someone new to tablesaws. Best rule of thumb is to keep at least 100mm away at all times, using push sticks, shoes and feather boards.

[Wongo]

Adam, I see a woodwork who is lack of confidence here. You’ve done your research. You have a tablesaw. You have a piece of wood in your hand. You work out the comfortable way for you to cut it. If you still worry then maybe you should work on your confidence rather than finding “the right way”.

It is not that hard. All you need are respect for the machine, common sense and confidence. C’mon lets starting pushing.

:)

[MurrayD99]

I'm similar to you there Redwood. Fairly comfortable with that kind of proximity in certain situations..........

I think we all "know" what to do when we set about cutting various widths, without necessarily being able to tell anyone exactly what that is.... as mentioned, we probably don't want to confess some of our working practices too loudly either. I know I get nervous when I bring the fence up close to the blade and there is not much room for error - like, less than 75 - 100 m/m - a push stick comes to mind/hand. Other times, yes, I get a bit close and I don't lose sleep. Perhaps for these reasons, I did not feel comfortable with the guard and pawls supplied with the big blue saw. To me, they created a complex, cluttered environment and I thought the risk to my hands higher than the protection.

[rrich]

Adam,
I never really thought much about it until I attended some basic wood wroking classes at the local community college.

The instructor, in his late thirties, has been woodworking since the age of 9. He was most adamant about using his technique in school. Since using his technique, I tend to agree with his methods and rules.

Always watch the stock where it is in contact with the fence. Keep the stock in tight contact with the fence.

There is a red zone of 15 CM around the blade. In the red zone, no fingers! No fingers on stock, no fingers on table, no fingers in the red zone what so ever.

Use push sticks if contact with the stock is necessary in the red zone.

Duties of the left hand are to push the stock into the fence and into the table. The left hand starts at the edge of the table and applies pressure to the stock but does not enter the red zone. The left hand stops at the red zone but continues to apply pressure down into the table and to the right towards the fence. (If splinters are a problem, wrap the thumb and index finger with adhesive (plaster?) tape.) The middle part of the fingers (between the top two knuckles) are always flat on the table.

The duties of the right hand are to feed the stock through the cut and use a push stick. When feeding stock through the saw, the fingers are never spread out. The position of the fingers of the right hand is more like a spider. When pushing stock the thumb is positioned behind the index and middle finger. In theory, your index finger will get to the saw blade before the thumb HOWEVER you can see the blade and index finger where the thumb may be hidden from view and could easily go into the blade unseen.

The stock is ALWAYS fed through and past the blade. NEVER, NEVER EVER draw stock backwards through the blade.

Push sticks that allow a downward pressure while feeding the stock through the saw are the best. The best position for a push stick is as close to the cut as possible. This prevents the tendancy to push the stock around to the left, away from the fence during the cut.

No helpers! Do NOT allow any one to help you on the out feed side of the table saw. Usually the helper will cause the stock to pinch the blade. The the saw will throw the stock back into the face of the operator. a.k.a. A Kick Back.

If you have a splitter for the saw, USE IT. If you don't have a splitter, get one, install it and use it.

I'm sure that there are other rules that I forgot to include here.

[silentC]

Rich, you might not have noticed but Adam is a southpaw ;)

I also have to disagree on one point. There are times when having someone to tail out is very handy and if you instruct them properly in what to do, there shouldn't be an issue. Simple rule: don't grab and pull, just support.

[Hardwood Hacker]

Has anyone got any good photos of the results of incorrect sawing techniques??? I have a client who is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon.

[outback]

Tailing out is very important on occaisons.


My hands don't get anywhere near close enough to my table saw. Currently several thousand miles, maybe closer if the iron ore hasn't even been mined yat. :(

[silentC]

Has anyone got any good photos of the results of incorrect sawing techniques??? I have a client who is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon.
There's the odd photo posted on this forum. There's also a good bit of reading in a list of tablesaw related industrial accidents if the photos don't put the wind up you ;)

[silentC]

Here you go: http://www.amgron.clara.net/circularsawbenches/accidents.htm

And try this for a photo: http://mosnews.com/news/2005/09/01/sawedman.shtml

[craigb]

Don't stand in line with the blade

Keep you hands well away from the blade

If ripping less than 100mm use a push stick and featherboards

Always use the spiltter and guard unless you're doing a non-through cut or using a cross-cut sled

Keep the stock tight against the fence


Works for me.

[chrisp]

I made a few more cuts last night and, being a lefty, I just cant get comfortable with Scenario 1.


Adam,

I don't know what type of saw you have, but it would seem to me that you would possibly feel more comfortable if you could position the fence to the left of the blade. You will then be able to use a mirror image of "Scenario 1" in a manner that will probably be more natural to a southpaw.

Chris

[silentC]

Or buy yourself a Triton!!

[LineLefty]

Nice Avatar SilentC. Would you like a smegging tea cake?

I'll have another go feeding from the rigth hand side as that seems to be popular wisdom. Perhaps there's a psychological comfort in behing behind the fence.

you're rigth Wongo, there is a definite lack of confidence. I've been given this saw, a manual in chinese-translated english and away I go. I havent had a chance to see an experienced user make some cuts so I'm at a bit of a disadvatage to most. Some of the retailers have demos from time to time which I'll definitely go along to.

Thanks for your replies everyone, very much appreciated.

[Gumby]

Or buy yourself a Triton!!

Crawler. An obvious attempt at getting a greeny from me. ;)

You failed BTW. :D :D

[redwood]

Adam,

The instructor, in his late thirties, has been woodworking since the age of 9. He was most adamant about using his technique in school. Since using his technique, I tend to agree with his methods and rules.

No helpers! Do NOT allow any one to help you on the out feed side of the table saw. Usually the helper will cause the stock to pinch the blade. The the saw will throw the stock back into the face of the operator. a.k.a. A Kick Back.



Rich, the advice you have given especialy where and how you your hands are working the timber is spot on with the way i do it. the only difference is my red zone is heaps less, but thats my choice.

Like silent i dont agree with you about out-feed help. Here in Aus its part of a cabies apprentiship duties to tail out and he learns how to do it safely.

And with your instructor, im not familiar with the way its done in the states but here its taught purley in a occupational health n safty way, public liability is more important than commonsence. So when i read it or hear or see an instructor teaching it the "propper" way, at times i cringe:rolleyes:

Respect a spinning blade, commonsence, watch where your fingers are, and have no fear and youl keep all your fingers for holding your next beer;)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Like silent i dont agree with you about out-feed help. Here in Aus its part of a cabies apprentiship duties to tail out and he learns how to do it safely.

I have to agree with this.

In situations where I need out-feed assistance and the only help at hand is unskilled, I'll often clamp a long stud to the fence, overhanging the out-feed side and tell 'em to "keep it held firm against that."

Of course, it's always best to try to avoid such situations, but... [shrug]

[redwood]

I have to agree with this.

In situations where I need out-feed assistance and the only help at hand is unskilled, I'll often clamp a long stud to the fence, overhanging the out-feed side and tell 'em to "keep it held firm against that."

Of course, it's always best to try to avoid such situations, but... [shrug]

Skew, nothing better than having someone who knows how to do it tail out. makes life so easy. i just tell em NOT to pull, just let it rest in their hand gently taking the weight, and if needed lightly prompt the board to the fence side

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Skew, nothing better than having someone who knows how to do it tail out. makes life so easy. i just tell em NOT to pull, just let it rest in their hand gently taking the weight, and if needed lightly prompt the board to the fence side

Damned right! :D Unfortunately, although I try to plan all major cuts in my shed there's always the odd occasion where I have to cut large panels on-site. Usually, only the brickie's labourer or framer's gophers are free to help and for some reason "don't pull" goes in one ear and out the next as often as not.

At home it's a different story. They've all learnt when to hide. ;)

[Andy Mac]

Good thread guys,
Well worth discussing things like this. I tend to have a comfort space far smaller than 100mm, but always ALERT and aware. I use one push stick, find 2 very dicey to actually control things. The biggest problems I've come across in 20 odd yrs of using a table saw is the timber itself: observe the characteristics of EACH stick! Know which way a bow or warp should be fed, if you have to. Test a piece to know if it is case-hardened and will bite...half a blade cut and pull it back to see if the cut closes (more later). Make sure there are no lumps and bumps that will bear against the fence, thereby jamming it onto the blade. I'm right handed, so stand slightly to the left of the stick, feeding with my right hand and guiding against the fence with my left. Unfortunately the saw I use at work has the switch on the far right:eek:
I have one practice that I know upsets people, and experienced people too...I often withdraw wood from the saw before completing a cut. I assume the response is about the timber grabbing and therefore kicking back...but in my experience when done under complete, firm, control there is no risk. The only risk is a burnt cut, but I'm not going to recommend the practice. Why do I do this? I reckon that the last part of a feed, when the end of the timber passes the blade is the worst time for accidents. Sometimes the whole thing tips or jams against the outfeed stand; sometimes it wants to move sideways; you are at the end of extension with hand/pushstick; the guard is in the bl**dy way...basically I lack the control I want unless I have someone tailing out (much preferred practice). So when ripping I cut a portion, withdraw the timber, flip it over and continue cutting untill the first cut is met and I withdraw it, without getting to that end point. I know its against all instructions and warnings, so I'm not recommending it, but my only beef is the cuts aren't perfect. I can put up with that, planing or sanding to fix it... anyone else do similar?:o

Cheers,

[Wongo]

A sharp blade and a piece of flat timber with straight edge will help preventing kickback too.

[redwood]

Good thread guys,

the guard is in the bl**dy way

Cheers,



Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.



As far as im concerned they are one of the biggest dangers in a workshop.


How many accidents have their been with even experienced users trying to manouver pushsticks around and behind a guard to "safley" rip timber:eek:



.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.

...and then you get a big job that's primarily cutting panels and go scrabbling around in bins, wondering "now where the hell did I leave that?"

Been there, done that. :o

[LineLefty]

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.
.

Thats the kind of comment I find a bit irresponsible. If thats your practice, fine, dont recommend it to everyone else.

[redwood]

Thats the kind of comment I find a bit irresponsible. If thats your practice, fine, dont recommend it to everyone else.

Lefty i think youl find i made my own disclamer above saying what i do is MY WAY and i dont recomend it to novices. but i still think im entitled to let people know how i do it my way, even if every one thinks its wrong, just as you are entitled to tell me how you do it even if i might think its wrong. as i said before saftey these days is occ health driven mainly for liability purposes and they still havnt looked up the word commonsence in the dictionary.

I would like someone to explain exactly why a guard is safe? An overhead that rises from the top is the ONLY safe guarde and what is included on 90% of the saws that would belong to members here would NOT meet saftey standards in a commercial shop, that is fact.

Their is no disputing that the guard on a saw is responsible for more chopped of fingers than a saw that has had it disguarded. How many pics in mags and books from all over the world do you see with the guardes off? (oh they to have their little disclaimer that its of for picture clarity...lol) No they are off because they are DANGEROUS. but that is my opinion and i dont expect anyone here to believe it anyeway:)

[Wongo]

Redwood,

I hear what you are saying. I think on the forum people are about “saying the right thing” especially on tablesaw safety.

I am sure a lot of us have done something which is labelled as “unsafe”. I know I have done more than once. We just don’t say it loud here. I mean honestly, how many of you have used a TS without a blade guide or a splitter or a push stick.

C’mon guys know what I am talking about.

[redwood]

Redwood,

I hear what you are saying. I think on the forum people are about “saying the right thing” especially on tablesaw safety.

I am sure a lot of us have done something which is labelled as “unsafe”. I know I have done more than once. We just don’t say it loud here. I mean honestly, how many of you have used a TS without a blade guide or a splitter or a push stick.

C’mon guys know what I am talking about.

thing is wongo i believe very firmly that a guard is dangerous. How many times have forum members recomended 2 push sticks to rip small items with the guard down over the blade? now i dont care what any one says to me, but even for a novice that is far more dangerous than doing it with one good dedicated push stick (not the plastic crap that comes with a saw) and the guarde off and the gullet of the blade just clearing the timber and having a clear clean access to safley guide it through. I still dont understand why guards are so called safe. except if you trip and whack your hand or head on it i see no reason for it. Their are a multitude of unsafe practices posted here in the forum quiet often. and 2 push sticks are one of them, but no one even questions that. this forum is for the beginers to the advanced, i made the note that beginers should be aware, and so they should, but they also need to know some pitfalls, and trying to manouver pieces behind a guard with 2 push sticks is something that beginers should not attempt at all. but people recomend it to them. to me that is irresposible

[keith53]

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.

Have to agree with you there. Also, I don't really have a "red zone" but I do have a VERY healthy respect for a fast-spinning blade. I'm always aware of what I'm doing with my hands and I don't believe I become blazé. Hell, I won't even turn on a tool if I feel tired. On those occasions, that's a shed clean-up day.

The point is that there are generalisations but each one of us has to feel comfortable with the way we do things. It is unlikely that any two will be exactly the same. Wongo has a vaild point about confidence. When I got really serious 10 years ago, I guess I was a lot more tentative than I am now. I think the most reinforcing aspect at the time was that a friend of mine who's a chippy had two and a half fingers missing on one hand and one on the other!! Those sort of mental images tend to have a lasting impact.

[TassieKiwi]

My Dad (40 yrs around saws, woodwork teacher, handyman carpenter, built 5 houses etc) uses the 10mm red zone. I always cringed. So did he when the blade got him - now the index finger on his left hand is, well, a bit more than 10mm shorter than it should be. Any closer than 150mm for 'normal' cutting OMHO is unnecessary and dumb.

BTW have a look at Sam Maloof's saw habits. He's been doing this for 40 yrs and I don't know how he's still got hands.:eek:

[Wongo]

BTW have a look at Sam Maloof's saw habits. He's been doing this for 40 yrs and I don't know how he's still got hands.:eek:

Exactly what is was going to say. If these things bother you so much then you wouldn’t want to see how Sam Maloof, Tage Frig, Frank Klausz and other regulars from FWW use their bandsaw and tablesaw. Because you might have a heart attack.

[redwood]

Exactly what is was going to say. If these things bother you so much then you wouldn’t want to see how Sam Maloof, Tage Frig, Frank Klausz and other regulars from FWW use their bandsaw and tablesaw. Because you might have a heart attack.

Sam Maloof cutting freehand on a bandsaw- even im not that stupid:eek: :D

[Wongo]

If I was to make a chair like his I would probably do the same. And if I cut a finger off, I won’t blame him either. Stupid or not it is my own risk. I'm big enough of a man to make that decision.

[chrisp]

I recall in an article on Maloof that he did not recommend that people use the bandsaw the way he did - he said it was dangerous! My memory of the articale is a bit hazy, but I think Maloof also pointed out that he had broken his hand a number of times when the blade grabbed the timber and slammed it down on the table. Still he made very nice chairs - and incredibly quickly.

Chris

[Eastie]

Everyones got their own way of using a table saw. What it comes down to is knowledge and risk. In relation to knowledge there are good books and web sites that have been mentioned (this being one). In relation to risk, it comes down to each individuals propensity to accept risk and for taking risks. On this:

Men have a much higher propensity for risk than women;
Propensity for risk amongst men is inversely related to age (a very interesting point);
Overall risk propensity is directly proportional to openness and inversely proportional to neuroticism and agreeableness; &
when looking at how 'professionals' use machinery, keep in mind that propensity for safety risk is highly influenced by financial risks...Now, looking at peoples age and their habits.......:D

[Wongo]

Eastie,

Good reply. I would like to add one more.

Men who got balls are more willing to take risk.:D :D

[redwood]

Overall risk propensity is directly proportional to openness and inversely proportional to neuroticism and agreeableness



Eastie couldnt agree more. infact i have a sign on the wall in my shed that has those exact same words and i look at it every day;)

[LineLefty]

Sorry if that was a bit blunt Redwood, your point is taken that you're not specifcally recommending your way to people.

The guard gives a level of psychological separation from the blade. This has both positive and negative points:

Good - it makes the user less afraid of the tool allowign them to concentrate on what they're doing.

Bad - It can create false confidence that the guard is going to protect them from every risk.

It surprises me that no one has redesigned the a tabel saw with integral push blocks, feather boards etc running in slots. Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.....

[silentC]

Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.
Yes, it's called a power feeder.

I disagree that guards are always dangerous. I agree that they can make certain tasks more dangerous though - particularly in the case you mention where someone attempts to use a push stick that wont fit between the fence and the guard.

The best way of cutting thin strips is to cut them from a much wider board. You set the fence so that the strip you want is the offcut, allowing you plenty of room between the fence and the blade. This is not always possible though.

In that situation, I have a push stick that is 10mm thick and about 90mm x 250mm in size with a notch cut out of the bottom creating a hook about 5mm deep and 25mm long. I remove the guard, wind the blade down low and fit a zero clearance insert with a splitter attached. The push stick sits over whatever you are ripping, allowing you to hold it down and against the fence and the hook allows you to push the stock through.

[Wongo]

It surprises me that no one has redesigned the a tabel saw with integral push blocks, feather boards etc running in slots. Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.....

Adam I hate to give you the same old crap argument but I use it anyway.

“Statistically you are more likely to be hurt by sitting in a car then using a tablesaw”

[Lignum]

Yes, it's called a power feeder.


The best way of cutting thin strips is to cut them from a much wider board. You set the fence so that the strip you want is the offcut, allowing you plenty of room between the fence and the blade. This is not always possible though.
In that situation, I have a push stick that is 10mm thick and about 90mm x 250mm in size with a notch cut out of the bottom creating a hook about 5mm deep and 25mm long. I remove the guard, wind the blade down low and fit a zero clearance insert with a splitter attached. The push stick sits over whatever you are ripping, allowing you to hold it down and against the fence and the hook allows you to push the stock through.

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)

[craigb]

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)


Good idea. One to file away for the next time I'm ripping ultra thin strips. :)

[Auld Bassoon]

Eastie,

Good reply. I would like to add one more.

Men who got balls are more willing to take risk.:D :D
Man who's had balls flattened by kick back becomes very risk averse :D

[Auld Bassoon]

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)


Nice one Lignum, duly noted and filed!

Rats! I was going to send a Greenie, but have to do some manure spreading first :eek: :)

[Lignum]

Nice one Lignum, duly noted and filed!

Rats! I was going to send a Greenie, but have to do some manure spreading first :eek: :)

Love to take credit but carnt:) I read it in the tips section of FFW about ten years ago and it stuck in my mind. the best part is you can repeat even 1 or 2mm strips constantly with accurate ease:)

[Rosethorn]

I tend to go with your scenario one- as you can apply pressure on stock to the fence- I always look at the fence and the timber in relation to the fence when feedin through. Use a push pad or stick if you feel uncomfortable getting your hands too close and make sure your blade has a guard and riving knife. A sliding table negates having to push stock.
Be comfortable in your stance and go slowly. If you are unhappy about anything, don't do it- it is probably wrong for you.
By feeding sheet material as per scenario 1, you can comfortably cut a 8x4 sheet on your own.
cheers rosethorn

[silentC]

Love to take credit but carnt:) I read it in the tips section of FFW about ten years ago and it stuck in my mind. the best part is you can repeat even 1 or 2mm strips constantly with accurate ease:)
Yes, I've seen that tip somewhere before - maybe in a book I've got. Haven't had the need to cut lots of thin strips yet but will keep it in mind for when I do.

[Andy Mac]

Hi there,
I know we started talking about the feeding operation, so we're slightly hijacking it onto guards!
I understand what Redwood's saying regarding guards, but I still wouldn't remove one permanently. If anything, they give the impression you could fall onto the machine and not get cut in half! :D My small saw at home is a Durden Junior Joiner, with a guard that rises in a slot on the riving knife...not satisfactory, as its not always easy to get to rise when you push the timber through. This means you have to take one hand off the timber and pull the guard up, and obviously expose yourself to the blade. The sliding table saw at work I fitted with an expensive aftermarket guard, with built in dust extraction. Its mounted well off-board, so no problems fitting sheet material through. But the actual perspex guard thing is supposed to move up and down through levers and counterweights when timber enters, but not always easily, esp. if only one side of it is contacted by the workpiece (ie. when taking a small offcut). If the fence is to be pushed close to the blade, you have to raise the guard up by hand and drop it onto the fence, thereby rendering the guard useless as most of the blade is exposed!:confused: I think there is lots of opportunity to develop one that really does what its meant too.

Just one thing though:


Sam Maloof cutting freehand on a bandsaw

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves! I think I might have tried a freehand cut once on a tablesaw when I first set out on this journey, and never again! Its one of those things that as soon as you start you wish you hadn't, but no way to stop...impossible to take one hand off the work and blindly reach for the stop button. Knee buttons should be fitted on all machines, but they can get knocked accidentally.

Cheers,

[silentC]

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves!
I had the idea that he was cutting with the item up off the table for some reason. There was a remark about him having broken his hand when the blade grabbed the wood and slammed it down into the table. Maybe I have that wrong but that's the mental picture I have.

[TassieKiwi]

I have a Taunton DVD of Sam Maloof - well worth a look. The joints for the leg-seat are masterful.
This man's fliuidity of motion when cutting on the bandsaw and tablesaw is both alarming and inspiring at the same time. He draws chinagraph lines on the workpiece, and goes for it freeform on the bandsaw. The workpiece is sometimes suspended by it's end, a foot or more away from the blade, with 2-3" of air under the piece at the blade. Sort of carving with the blade.
The 12" tablesaw has no guard or dust extraction (I think). He ripped 5 pieces of walnut for the seat of a rocker in seconds. No push sticks for this bloke, mate. Reaching over the blade and all, standing behind - astonishing. He makes 60-70 pieces a year. BTW his rockers change hands for over $US150K. Bloody amazing woodworker, quick, efficient, but I couldnt make myself do it quite like that.

[TassieKiwi]

I forgot - check these out Lefty - they may answer all of your worries about ripping. I really like using them, they feel really safe and secure.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49712&cat=1,41080,51225&ap=1

[Andy Mac]

Well that's another matter altogether!:eek: I sometimes cut a curved portion of carving that is above the table of the bandsaw, but part of the work is actually on the table. Risky perhaps although under control with a firm hand, and effective too. I have had one or too grab, but not taken completely out of my hands...not something I'd show students;) I assume this is the process Mr Maloof was referring to.

Cheers,

[craigb]

I forgot - check these out Lefty - they may answer all of your worries about ripping. I really like using them, they feel really safe and secure.

[/URL]

I've been umming and ahhing about getting some of these things for a while.

I can't quite convince myself that I need them though. I don't do a lot of ripping of thin pieces and it seems to me that Lignum's tip would be just as safe a way to do it as using grr-rippers.

I know that the people who have them rave about them though.

I'm prepared to be swayed but I think that for normal ripping I'd end up not using them.

[LineLefty]

Thanks TassieKiwi,

I know all about the GRR-Ripper, I've read the website, forum posts etc. IT does seem like a real winner, however beginners like myself like the psychological separation form the blade that a guard achieves. I'm not comfortable with and unguarded blade. YES I know it's safer with a GRR-Ripper or two and in the long run they're probably the best bet.

[redwood]

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves! I think I might have tried a freehand cut once on a tablesaw when I first set out on this journey, and never again! Its one of those things that as soon as you start you wish you hadn't, but no way to stop...impossible to take one hand off the work and blindly reach for the stop button. Knee buttons should be fitted on all machines, but they can get knocked accidentally.

Cheers,

Andy i wont mention that i occasionaly freehand cut on the table saw as i dont want to give a bad impression, but when i mentioned Sam maloof cutting freehand on a band saw im not sure if you have seen him do it or not. But out of all the silly things we get upto in a workshop iv never seen anything to beat sam and his bandsawing. He will hold a piece of say 1000 x 150 x 50 in both hands with one completly OFF the table and saw curves in all directions and angles. As was mentioned above he has broken his hand on numerous occasions but still continues to do it. :eek: :eek: :eek: I just pray he never qualifies for a Darwin Award:o

[Andy Mac]

He will hold a piece of say 1000 x 150 x 50 in both hands with one completly OFF the table and saw curves in all directions and angles.
Hi Redwood,
No I haven't seen any video of him at all, but know his work well (beautiful stuff), but from what you say I'm speechless and don't know if I could sit still long enough to watch:eek: ! I can't quite wrap my tiny brain around that process, or even why you'd try!! Cutting across round logs is enough of a thrill for me, with them on the deck...

Cheers,

[MurrayD99]

I think LineLefty did pretty good starting this thread: Where to stand.... leading to a vigorous discussion on guards on/guards off/guards in the bin, technique... bandsaws.... push sticks, grippers..... This is obviously fertile ground and good stuff, even if there is disagreement on anti-kickback devices, guards, redzones. Well done to the initiator and the hi-jackers. Me, I'm staying clear of the saw for a couple of days in case it heard us whispering about being attacked and has some ideas.........

[silentC]

True but it is by no means a new debate to this forum. There was one memorable exchange a couple of years ago between one of our most respected members and a disgraced ex-member on the use of guards (or otherwise). Certainly a topic capable of inspiring some heated debate ;)

[Wongo]

Apparently using a bandsaw under the influence of alcohol is dangerous. You can cut amazing curves though.:D

[silentC]

Yes I would stay well clear of any bandsaws (or tablesaws for that matter) that were under the influence of alcohol. You never know what they might do when they're drunk.

[MurrayD99]

I reckon a drunken skilsaw would be a bit of a handful.

[Andy Mac]

Apparently there are misguided folk in the US who race portable powertools, like sending circular saws (skilsaws?) down plywood tracks with leads trailing behind!!:eek:
All of a sudden any workshop practice sounds sane...

Cheers,

[TassieKiwi]

That sounds wussy. Kiwi carpenters sit on thier 4" Makita belt sanders and race'em (with a loong cord). True! Sounds lile fun.

[keith53]

Kiwi carpenters sit on thier 4" Makita belt sanders and race'em (with a loong cord).

And all along I thought it was the sheep that made them strange....:D

[rrich]

SilentC and RedWood,
Your points on the out feed thing are well taken and I agree when the helper has been taught HOW TO HANDLE THE OUT FEED!

On the south paw thing (Lefty) the instructor is a lefty and the students teased him about it, unmercifully. Once he was drawing an example on the white board that involved something with threads. He drew left hand threads and we just picked on him something terrible.

Unfortunately, most equipment is designed and built for the 80% majority of right handed people and leftys are expected to either adapt or suffer. At times life ain't fair.

[LineLefty]

At times life ain't fair.

Yes but we get our own back on the sporting field.

[Felder]

And all along I thought it was the sheep that made them strange....:D
No - the sheep make them happy.;):D

I have quickly skimmed this thread and found it quite interesting, but is there anyone out there using a power feeder on their saw? I know they are commonly used on other finger / hand confiscating devices such as spindle moulders, but not that common for saws.

We had a massive old General Electric ripping saw come through here as a second hand machine a few weeks ago. The beastie wore 600mm blades:eek:. I gave it a wide berth even when the thing was unplugged.
However, as we like to know whether or not things are working when we sell them, we decided we ought to fire it up and run some timber through it. Suffice to say we attached a power feeder first and stood a fair way back. It worked really well and our 'red-zone' was probably about 450-500mm.

We sold that machine and my nightmares stopped immediately.:D

[A-Marks]

Hi LineLefty I was just wondering
would that be Sinistrpedal or sinistrorsal sinistrophobia
Hmmm?