1m long Salt & Pepper Grinders

[dai sensei]

DanTom has asked me to turn some super huge salt and papper grinders around the 1m mark. I have turned a few, but not that big. I have seen them this big before at the pancake parlour, but the largest mechanisms I have found available are 15".

Does anyone know of a large machanism supplier?

Or should I use the standard long mechanism (12" or 15") and just make the handle longer? I also was considering extending the shaft, but worry it would be too flimsy and may twist instead of turning, if you know what I mean.

Any held would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[dan_tom]

Thanks Neil!:)

Cheers
Dan and Tom

[echnidna]

A metre long is a great idea.

Get the cat off the table quick
Control the kids easily
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Termite]

Dinner table argument = dueling grinders.

[Sir Stinkalot]

I think I recall reading an article on the large pepper grinders once and they just replaced the shaft with one of desired length.

I would suggest doing some scale drawings first. At that length it runs the risk of being so out of proportion that it will look stupid.

Be sure to post images when it is done ...... and then I will judge :D

Good luck.

[Taffsmania]

Try shaftless ???
http://woodenpost.com/products/project_kits_02.htm:p

Keith

[dazzler]

Please only make them if they are NOT going to a restuarant.

God I am sick of the "would sir care for some pepper" and then have some pimply grot measure out three cranks.

Its pepper for gods sake!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

End of rant.

[rsser]

Good call Keith.

Think I've seen these advertised on one of Australia's online retailers websites.

[Taffsmania]

Thanks Ern
Keith:cool:

[DanP]

Crushgrind still have a shaft. It just doesn't go through the top.

[DanP]

Might I suggest extending a square shaft with a round shaft. The round shaft will not have the friction and move through the pepper better and have just the ends as the threaded, square bits.

Dan

[Taffsmania]

Taken from their site??
Shaftless Mechanism: Top and bottom wood sections fit on to this mechanism that allows rotation for grinding. Made to any length and in any material. Get creative with your design. Refill the mill from the top or the bottom. For best results, we recommend using wood blanks that are 2-1/4" or more in diameter.
Keith:confused:

[macca2]

From DanP "Crushgrind still have a shaft. It just doesn't go through the top"
They also make them shaftless
Macca

[dai sensei]

Thanks Neil!:)


Don't thank me yet, it is still just an idea, I still have to make them:p .


I think I recall reading an article on the large pepper grinders once and they just replaced the shaft with one of desired length.

I would suggest doing some scale drawings first. At that length it runs the risk of being so out of proportion that it will look stupid.

Be sure to post images when it is done ...... and then I will judge :D

Good luck.

Not to keen on extending the shaft, but it is a possibility. Scale drawing first - good idea. I'll get my son to do it all up in a CAD drawing of some sort. The proportions will be very important. I am thinking of 120mm max dia from a 150mm square blank, but I'll see how it looks.


Try shaftless ???
http://woodenpost.com/products/project_kits_02.htm:p

Keith

Great idea Keith. I was keen on the CrushGrind anyway, but wasn't aware of the shaftless version. Not sure how it works though. Carrol's have the CrushGrind, might see if they have the shaftless version and ask them.


Thanks for all the suggestions. I also have to consider what wood to use. Although a good lump of redgum might be better for the cat & kids:rolleyes: , a lighter timber would be better for the grinder. I'll have to sort through DanTom's stack;)

Cheers

[DanP]

Ok, so there's a shaftless version. But some part of the top will have to connect to the mechanism or when the top is turned, it does nothing. So the top would have to go through to the mech, which would be a PITA on a metre long grinder. I meght be wrong but I can't see how the grinder would work without the top connecting to the mechanism...

Dan

[Cliff Rogers]

Maybe 'cos the top is almost a metre long & then the bottom is only very short. :confused:

[echnidna]

At a metre long what diameter will the bases need to be if they're gunna stand up on the table. Imagine a coupla baseball bats standing on a table.

Not knocking the concept at all, in fact I really reckon they could look great but how are they gunna stand up.

[Cliff Rogers]

....what diameter will the bases need to be if they're gunna stand up ......


Dolly Paton on High Heels????

[dai sensei]

Ok, so there's a shaftless version. But some part of the top will have to connect to the mechanism or when the top is turned, it does nothing. So the top would have to go through to the mech, which would be a PITA on a metre long grinder. I meght be wrong but I can't see how the grinder would work without the top connecting to the mechanism...

Dan

You are correct Dan, spoke to a few suppliers today and apparently the shaftless is for the short grinders, not this type of huge monster.

I have put together a basic plan in section that looks Ok to me in the attached pic. Hopefully the 120mm dia base should be Ok to stand, but I might do a quick pine mock up just to make sure before I get right into it - I'd hate to waist some good wood.

Any comments on the style. I chose large simple shapes, rather than a lot of fancy little flutes etc, as I think it would look better. The 50mm segments also lends itself to different timbers glued together to add to the interest factor.

I'll design the inside to suit the kit I can get, having the top decend into the bottom so that the gap still suits it, or extend the shaft with some more stable heavier gauge rod (that won't twist).

I will post more pics when I start, but that may not be for quite a while, I still have to finish that dam TV/entertainment unit.

Cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

My comments.

1. Get rid of the bottom cove so the 2 beads sit on top of the square section.

2. Make the 2 140mm curves shorter & the 195 mm curve longer & change the bottom 140mm curve so it is not an ogee, just have it curve in so it looks like the bulb sits on top of the 2 beads.

3. Fix the knob on the top so it doesn't look like a light bulb. Make it more like a sphere or an egg sitting on its pointy end.

4. you may find that the 60mm thin bit is a bit too thin.

[dan_tom]

That's pretty dang cool!

Cheers
Dan

[ozwinner]

Dont get all gooey just yet.
Wait till ye get em.

Al :p

[DanP]

I think that the 120mm dia top may be a bit large. Remember that it should be comfortable in the hand. Might be something to check out when you do the mock up...

I agree mostly with what Cliff says otherwise.

Dan

PS Cliff's description is similar to a 12" one I have here. I'll do a pic...

All ready done the pics on another thread...

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=14073&highlight=finally (http://http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=14073&highlight=finally)

[ozwinner]

PS Cliff's description is similar to a 12" one I have here. I'll do a pic...

Dude. :eek:

Talk about the long arm of the law..........

Al :o :eek: :D

[DanP]

You should see my extendable baton...

[ozwinner]

You should see my extendable baton...

Errrhh, no thanks..

Al :eek:

[dai sensei]

My comments.

1. Get rid of the bottom cove so the 2 beads sit on top of the square section.

2. Make the 2 140mm curves shorter & the 195 mm curve longer & change the bottom 140mm curve so it is not an ogee, just have it curve in so it looks like the bulb sits on top of the 2 beads.

3. Fix the knob on the top so it doesn't look like a light bulb. Make it more like a sphere or an egg sitting on its pointy end.

4. you may find that the 60mm thin bit is a bit too thin.

Thanks for the comments Cliff (& Dan).

I was trying to follow my other grinders that DanTom have seen, but happy to consider alternative - see attached rough figure (any preference client?). The 60mm is the largest to hold easily in your hand whilst turning the top - I think. My own grinder has a maximum dia 60mm and min 40mm, although a standard 250mm long, so 60 will be Ok for strength.

Dan - The 120 top may be too big to hold, but as it is round, I'm hoping you can grip the very top. I think any smaller would look out of proportion, but as you say, I can see how the test works out.

The design has certainly got me sucked in.

Cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

That's better.... can you trim down the 90mm just under the top 2 beads a little?

Try 80 or 75.

[dan_tom]

I think any drawing that is done on a computer looks cool Neil! My sketches are generally done on the back of an envelope with dodgy labels for when I am explaining the design to Tom! Our woodwork kind of "evolves" if I don't explain something right (and also to allow for Tom's creative input, which is generally more logic than anything else)...

This is great!

Cheers
Dan

[dai sensei]

I think any drawing that is done on a computer looks cool Neil! My sketches are generally done on the back of an envelope ...

Mine to Dan. I thought I would go a little bit better this time to give the members a better idea. Mind you I ended up using Powerpoint. I have WoodturnerPro, but I couldn't work out how to do the curves. Creative Woodturner was the best software I could find, but didn't have a trial version.


That's better.... can you trim down the 90mm just under the top 2 beads a little?

Try 80 or 75.

I tried 80 on the sletch, but it made little difference due to the rough nature of the curves on the sketch. I know what you mean though and can try it on the trial. I worry that 80 or 75 may throw the symetry, but would help the look of the neck. I will try 90 first - hard to do it the other way around:rolleyes:

I was going to have the joint between the top and bottom below the 2 beads. Or is it better between the 2 beads?

Thanks again.

[Cliff Rogers]

....I was going to have the joint between the top and bottom below the 2 beads. Or is it better between the 2 beads?....

Either between or above them 'cos it will give you more timber to play with to make the join.

Below the beads also means the joint would finish at a sharp(ish) edge that could chip out.

[DanP]

Putting it between the beads tends to make it a better looking joint between top and body. Thats where I would have it.

Dan

[keith53]

Dinner table argument = dueling grinders.

Saw a couple of heros once on a roundabout - out of their cars - at the en garde position with their club locks. Obviously a couple of rocket scientists trying to solve a difference of opinion. :D

[Jim Carroll]

You can adapt the standard crushgrind to be used in a 1m mill by turning the bottom part to the lenght required for the stem and the top part would be any lenght you want.
You dont want to have to drill a hole all the way through the mill just to put in the top peice
Where the join is you could put in a couple of decorative small beads to hide the joint, you would still have about 250mm at the bottom for the mechanism to fit into or a bit more if you recess the mill in a bit further.
One thing to consider with the diameter of the mill is can you get your hand around it comfortably, not all waiters are built like lumberjacks.
Also look at the timber you are going to use, you dont want any of the dense queensland timbers as they will be too heavy to start with, Blackwood would be good.

[dai sensei]

You can adapt the standard crushgrind to be used in a 1m mill by turning the bottom part to the lenght required for the stem and the top part would be any lenght you want.
You dont want to have to drill a hole all the way through the mill just to put in the top peice
Where the join is you could put in a couple of decorative small beads to hide the joint, you would still have about 250mm at the bottom for the mechanism to fit into or a bit more if you recess the mill in a bit further.
One thing to consider with the diameter of the mill is can you get your hand around it comfortably, not all waiters are built like lumberjacks.
Also look at the timber you are going to use, you dont want any of the dense queensland timbers as they will be too heavy to start with, Blackwood would be good.

Thanks for comments Jim. The only dissadvantage of having a long top part is you must hold the bottom part whilst grinding and hence your hands would be a long way apart. Having said that though, having the hand hold too high may make and close to the knob would make it more difficult to hold (balance wise). I'm still to look at what timbers Dan has, but you are right, it should be as light as possible.

I would have thought blackwood may have even been too heavy, the trial with the pine will give me a good idea of how heavy the beast will be. I might even take my time with the trial in case it is a keeper.

Cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

You need to be able to position your bottom hand close to the bottom otherwise it is going to wave around like a broom as you grind it & spread pepper all over the table.

[dai sensei]

All good points. To lower the hand position, I have pivotted the center section so that the grip is lower (first figure) which I think still looks Ok. This makes the grip between hands change from the previous approx 300 to approx 600.

Homing in?

[Cliff Rogers]

Nope, don't like that, looks top heavy.
That is more suited to a table leg or a bed post.

[dai sensei]

Nope, don't like that, looks top heavy.

Hmm, probably right. Need to think more about that centre shape then, but I think trying to space the hands further apart is the right way to go.

[CameronPotter]

I know that this might be a bit radical, but how about a flared base? It may look awful, but it may also look great and sort out the top heavy/bottom holding problem. It would also help with stability and you may even be able to have the entire grinder a bit thinner if the base was flared to provide the stability it needs.

It may look something like a rocket though if you are not careful. :p

Feel free to bag this idea if you think it is terrible - I am undecided as yet...:confused: :rolleyes: :D

[Cliff Rogers]

The problem with a flared base is that it is already nearly 5 inches across the base..... need I say any more? ;)

On a normal 'long' grinder you would grip it with the bottom hand on the bottom beads & the top hand on the knob....

Does any body remember 'Big Handed Harry'?
He was a character from a beer advert that used to be on the radio last century & I think it was around the time that the six pack was invented, I might be wrong.

[dai sensei]

Thanks for the idea Cameron, but I think Cliff is right, 120mm is already pretty big. Unfortunately the bottom beads are also 120mm, so too big for ones hand. I might have to go back to the orginal idea, or at least for the center bit (ie reducing down to 60mm just above the 2 bottom beads) so that you can get a grip at either just below the top beads, or just above the bottom beads.

I'll probably make the test run out of a series of segments that can be assembled, with some alternatives. That way I can change them around to see what suits. It will also allow me to dril through more easily, if indeed I go that way.

Cheers

[Jim Carroll]

Well alright then you have all the advice and the design now it is time to get out to the workshop and see if it will work to the way you want.
We will need to see pictures of the progress good or bad.

[CameronPotter]

Sorry Neil and Cliff, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I meant by flaring the bottom, the rest of the grinder could be thinner.

ie Make the bottom 120mm wide, but don't carry that up the rest of the design. That way you still have the stable base, but you also have a diameter that is more able to be held onto (and a knob at the top that is more grippable too).

Essentially, I am not meaning flaring the base wider than it is now, but leaving the base and tapering it in to a thinner diameter.

Actually, you could even make the entire grinder have a gradual taper.

Cam

Cam

[DanP]

Neil,

I think on a grinder that size, you want the place you hold it to be roughly in the centre of gravity. Keep in mind that you hold it in one hand and the other hand is just to turn the top, so it needs to be roughly balanced. I think you should have the thin part just above centre height, say within 100 mm, so that the bottom is heavier, but not by much.

Dan

[CameronPotter]

Good point Dan, but using a tapered design, the holding position could be lower on the shaft (whilst still being centred). As someone said earlier, you don't want to hold it too high or the table will receive most of the pepper...

[dai sensei]

Well alright then you have all the advice and the design now it is time to get out to the workshop and see if it will work to the way you want.
We will need to see pictures of the progress good or bad.

Yeh, your right. Looked through my shed and couldn't find anything that suited for a trial. I went down to the local salvage yard and picked up a post, 130x130 what looks like oregon 1.5m long, that should do the trick for $6 (see pic - yeh I know, looks like two big fat posts:o ).

I'll post more pics after the shavings fly:p Hopefully it won't come apart :eek: - the post is made from 3x~45mm layers glued together. I'll play with the basic shape and see how it all goes - weight, center of gravity etc etc, all good points, but it also has to look good and be in proportion.

Wish me luck.

[dan_tom]

Good luck Neil!

Hey, have you finished your cabinet/buffet yet? Or shouldn't I ask?!!

Cheers
Dan

[Sir Stinkalot]

(see pic - yeh I know, looks like two big fat posts:o ).

How about another with a little more leg? :eek:

[dai sensei]

Hey, have you finished your cabinet/buffet yet? Or shouldn't I ask?!!

No :o :eek:

[Wood Butcher]

Hey, have you finished your cabinet/buffet yet? Or shouldn't I ask?!!

No :o :eek:

Neil, is that no you haven't finished? Or no we shouldn't ask? :rolleyes::rolleyes::p

[dai sensei]

Neil, is that no you haven't finished? Or no we shouldn't ask? :rolleyes::rolleyes::p

Both:rolleyes: :D Nor the set of carving knives I am supposed to have finished in 4 weeks for my mates wedding:o

This grinder idea has taken over.

[dai sensei]

Well after a few problems drilling out the center and turning the actual beast, I have now roughed it out. I made it in 3 segments (photo1) to ensure my 300 drill extension was long enough to get through using the tailstock drill attachment (the bed was only just long enough;) ). The second photo is it assembled, with it's little 250mm brother beside it:p , the third using it. The last pic is the plan on which it is based.

Keep in mind it is only roughly turned, not finished nor even sanded. It also has a few small dints where I didn't tighten up the jaws enough. I don't have a centre support (yet) and it doesn't take much off balance for a 700mm long piece of timber held only at one end to come out:eek: :eek: :eek: .

Personally I don't like it much. It's too chunky, a bit heavy, and not really functional. I could turn down a lot of it to get the weight down, but the drill hole is not completely central mid-way (drilled from both ends) and the most I could turn the minimum down to safely is 50mm. To keep it in proportion, the maximum dimensions could reduce from 120 down to 100, and the 90 down to 75 say. Likewise there should be more smaller beads, but not sure how it would look.

Not sure if it is worth while continuing to make the sets, certainly this one could be finished off and stained to suit as a one-off pepper grinder.

Thoughts please.

[dan_tom]

Hi Neil

Well you gave both Tom and I a good giggle this morning! It's great! Are you going to finish it off into a functional salt/pepper grinder for yourself?

Whenever you're free, come up to Brissy with your trailer and you can load up with some logs! And probably lunch and a beer as well.:)

Cheers
Dan

[dai sensei]

Hi Neil

Well you gave both Tom and I a good giggle this morning! It's great! Are you going to finish it off into a functional salt/pepper grinder for yourself?

Whenever you're free, come up to Brissy with your trailer and you can load up with some logs! And probably lunch and a beer as well.:)

Cheers
Dan

I'll finish it eventually. I'll PM you on lunch some time, so you can see it and decide what you want to do.

Cheers

[RufflyRustic]

Great job on the test grinder Neil! It's Huge!!!!

Cheers
Wendy

[Arno]

I have once (in an Italian restaurant in Taipei - of all places) seen a grinder that had an electric mechanism .... and a light that came on when the button was pushed!!!! Not my style, but... that would take care of the long shaft required for a hand operated mechanism. I have done a quick Google and can find electric pepper and salt grinders but have not found a vendor of the mechansim. Just an idea!

[dai sensei]

I have once (in an Italian restaurant in Taipei - of all places) seen a grinder that had an electric mechanism .... and a light that came on when the button was pushed!!!! Not my style, but... that would take care of the long shaft required for a hand operated mechanism. I have done a quick Google and can find electric pepper and salt grinders but have not found a vendor of the mechansim. Just an idea!

Good idea Arno. I have actually seen those electric grinders before - SilentC had some last I visited. He to got his OS.

I've already drilled/turned the inside to suit a Crushgrind mechanism. I have shown DanTom and they agree it could use a bit of thinning :rolleyes: . Unfortunately it will be a while before I can get back to returning the outside:o .

Cheers

[andrewh]

Hi there...

coming in a little late here... but the crushgrind comes with a 50cm long mechanism which in future may may life a little easier... They are available from the Woodsmith in Vic and Woodeze in Sydney... or from www.crushgrind.com.au

Andrew.

[dai sensei]

Thanks Andrew, but the beast is 1m long.

Can't believe the last post was back in Feb:eek: , seems like yesterday:o . I still have to finish the centre support for the lathe before I can finish the grinder. Got some skate wheels, but that is as far as I got. I do have the crushgring mechanisms, I was going to extend with rod forged to suit. Sorry D&T:o at the rate I'm going you guys will be experts on your own lathe before I finish

[Mr Unknown]

Did you drill the hole before you roughed it out? We used to make pizza handles with holes right through and we would drill them first as straight as possible and make two plugs the same diameter as the holes for the lathe then turn it and the hole would be almost exactly center all the way through because the holes line up with the centers on the lathe, if you know what i mean?
Also i havent read all the posts but are u saying that your getting vibration? if its 90mm dia and 1m long you should have no problems with vibration, maybe you got the lathe running to fast?
Also that timber you got from the yard i dont think is oregon because oregon is more orange and more lines in the grain, what you have looks like jarrah, just a guess though.
hope this might help.

[dai sensei]

Did you drill the hole before you roughed it out? We used to make pizza handles with holes right through and we would drill them first as straight as possible and make two plugs the same diameter as the holes for the lathe then turn it and the hole would be almost exactly center all the way through because the holes line up with the centers on the lathe, if you know what i mean?
Also i havent read all the posts but are u saying that your getting vibration? if its 90mm dia and 1m long you should have no problems with vibration, maybe you got the lathe running to fast?
Also that timber you got from the yard i dont think is oregon because oregon is more orange and more lines in the grain, what you have looks like jarrah, just a guess though.
hope this might help.

Yes I drilled first, but it wandered, so each end is centred but the middle may not be. No it is not Jarrah, that pink colour is paint, looks/turns/has fibres like oregon to me. I'm no expert, but it is definately a softwood.

Yes I was running it too fast probably, but holding from one end only is also a bit sus:eek: I have learnt a lot about turning on this project though:D