Suggestions for a small sail boat

[Don Nethercott]

I've never built a boat before, and never sailed one either, apart from accompanying a friend on his sailer one day.

However as I live on a river, figure I should try a bit of sailing, and as I like woodwork, why not make my own.

Looking for something simple and cheap, for starters anyway.

Does anyone have any suggestions. I have been looking at Murray Isles designs, particularly the Aurette and the Auray - any comments on these.

PS I have no idea what terms such as 2ply chine boats, 4 strip planked and cold moulded mean (read these terms in other posts in this forum).

Thanks
Don

[bitingmidge]

Don,

This may sound all biased and flippant; it's not meant to be!

Have you been following our Puddleduck thread??http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=28107

You seriously won't get a cheaper, better boat to experiment and learn on than this, and with the smaller of the rigs that we are using, it is a great kids/beginners boat. They may not look quite as romantic as some of the other designs, but are a doddle to build and sail.

If you build it out of top notch materials, and use store-bought hardware, it should cost a little over $300.00, but with a bit of scrounging and a little resourcefulness, you'll save a third of that, so it's not a big investment.

Check out the links at http://www.pdracer.com as well for more information.

I have a fair bit of sailing/boating experience, as does Michael Storer (the Puddleduck is not one of his designs, although he will shortly be offering a complete set of plans for free, to go with our construction notes) and we both believe this has the greatest potential for a beginner builder and sailor. Which is why I'm building two of them.... to get people out on the water.

I'd then wait until you had a little more experience before making a decision on the next boat.

There are many designs to choose from, and not all are going to turn out the way they are described.

Come up and have a sail!

Cheers,

P:D

[jackbat]

Hello Don,

I have a design for a 14 foot cape cod cat boat that I have not had time to build. As I am working on a number of other designs right now It may be a while before I get to it.

I designed it to be built with a simple strip method similar to a canoe.

If you are willing to work with me a bit maybe we can come to some agreement.

The design is not experimental, it is very traditional but I only do designs that home builders can build so I do alter the building methods.

I figure the hull is about 600 to 700 to build and the sails will vary with what you decide to go with. I have a friend that is an owner of MAS Epoxy and he also has a mast company so I am sure he would help to get the boat rigged right.

Let me know if you are interested.

Jackbat

www.sandypointboatworks.com

[Daddles]

Go the Puddleduck route. It'll get you on the water sailing very quickly without a huge outlay and you'll gain lots of experience while building the big fella. It's also something you won't mind mucking up as you go.

If the Puddleduck is too small for you, go for Mik's Goat Island Skiff. As Midge'll testify, they go like stink, are quick and easy to build (for normal people) and although more expensive than the PD, probably still a fairly cost effective way to get started.

The hardest part in working out what design to build is working out what you're going to be doing with the thing. You just don't know that in your position - I know, I've been there, went through more permutations than the mad dingo and still got it wrong. So start with something simple, versitile and relatively cheap to build (note the use of the 'qualifier' - NOTHING in boats is cheap). You'll soon find out whether you want to belt around in the ocean, cruise on the local river and whether your wife's enthusiasm lasts more than the first two outings (no kidding, a mate bought an 18 footer to go out with the family, only to discover that after 6 months sailing, his wife still hated it heeling and she now longer goes out with him).

Murray Isles - a few years back, when a mate was thinking of building one of his designs, we had a long yarn with a boat builder with a lot of experience. He reported quite a few problems with the Murray Isles plans - things not fitting, errors, etc. Those problems might have been fixed by now but it would be worth checking that side of things very carefully. Mik may be able to help with this abuse of an aussie designer's reputation as Mik works with DuckFlats and they've had a bit to do with the Murray Isles designs.

Of course, if you are determined to make a mistake, make it a glorious one and, no matter what you choose, make sure you are deeply in love with - that's the only thing that'll get you through the process.

Richard

[Don Nethercott]

I do know what I want - for a first boat at least.
1) something VERY simple to build to develop my skills from current level of rank beginner
2) something simple and easy to learn to sail in.

I am on the river with my own jetty. However low tide goes out 12 metres - to the end of the jetty, so will need a removable keel (in that thing that sticks out the bottom).

Jackbat - thanks for the offer, however I don't think I want a cat.

One other thing, the total mast height is limited (to what I am not sure) as there are bridges I have to go under.

Don

[Gumby]

However low tide goes out 12 metres - to the end of the jetty, so will need a removable keel (in that thing that sticks out the bottom).

Centreboard :D

[Don Nethercott]

Yes! That's it. Had it on the tip of my tongue!!?? Thanks Gumby.

Still not sure which way to go.

Has anyone done a compilation of the Puddleduck postings??

Must admit it is an ugle looking thing, but if it works!!

Daddles - who is Mik

Thanks
Don

[Boatmik]

c'est moi!

[email protected] (or here if you like)

MIK

[Don Nethercott]

Hi MIK,

Found out who you were on another thread. Had a look at your site. Very interesting.

Just might give the PD a go. HOWEVER -

Very interested in the 12 lb canoe. My wife has had breast cancer and paddles in a dragon boat team. She needs to practice so we bought a (plastic??) canoe. However it is 34 kg and she can't get it down the bank and into the river by herself.

Ideally she needs an outrigger canoe as it has the same paddling action as the dragon boad. They make one in Hawaii out of kevlar - at $4000 - way out of my budget. Could the 12lb canoe be modified into an outrigger???

PS - I have never built a boat so will be starting from scratch.

Don

[Boatmik]

I had a fish around on the net and only found one plan for an outrigger - from selway fisher - and I doubt it would be lighter than the canoe you have already.

Warning - pictures of fibreglass boats follows.

Now as far as outriggers - the most common "type" is the OC1
http://www.users.bigpond.com/bladerunner.boats/oc1fpaddler2.jpg

http://www.users.bigpond.com/bladerunner.boats/steveclose.jpg

One suggestion is that David Payne - another of my favourite OZ boat designers has a plan for a plywood K1 kayak

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/payne/K1Racing%20Kayak.jpg

It is built in 3mm ply so will be less than half the weight of a cedar strip boat. Add an outrigger like the fibreglass beesties above and it would both GO and not fall over.

If you wanted an OC1 type I might be tempted to draw one up out of strip - which could be either cedar or balsa.

MIK

[Don Nethercott]

Thanks for that info Mik.

The bottom line is weight so Janette can lift it. Because breast cancer victims have lost their lymph glands under one arm they are restricted in what they lift. Therefore the idea of using balsa wood is appealing.

Will follow up on the ideas you have given me. Might be interested in a plan for a balsa OC1 if you are willing to give it a try.

Re the kevlar outriggers I was wrong - they are $6000 each.

Thanks,
Don

[catbuilder]

Hi Don

Not to be overly nosey, but, your wife didn't happen to appear on a tv game show, which was aired last night!? I just happened to be watching the show, and one of contestants has breast cancer and races dragon boats! she had her twin sister with her.

Anyway, way off topic I know, good luck with your project. And all the best to the wife.

Matt

[Don Nethercott]

No wasn't her. However there are many Dragon Boat teams around Australia that have been formed by Breast cancer suferers (and that is a LOT of women). It seems that the paddling action and exercise they get in Dragon Boats is good for their arms, etc.

Janette is in a team that paddles on the Clarence River at Maclean (thanks to the generosity of the local rowing club who lets them keep their boat there). There are teams in Brisbane, Byron Bay, Coffs Harbour, Sydney, etc, etc. Big worldwide Dragon Boat regatta on the Sunshine Coast September 2007.

Thanks for the interest.

Don

[Boatmik]

Thanks for that info Mik.

The bottom line is weight so Janette can lift it. Because breast cancer victims have lost their lymph glands under one arm they are restricted in what they lift. Therefore the idea of using balsa wood is appealing.
Thanks,
Don
Am thinking out loud here

Ply Boat
The thing I am trying to balance up is that ply can be half the weight of cedar strip - just because you can build the boat half the thickness - and there is much less fibreglass involved.

A Melbourne couple recently built one of my Eureka ply canoes to a weight of 17kg - which is not only half the weight of your exisiting tub, but also has much more surface area than any outrigger canoe I would design.

So ply can keep the weight down significantly too.

It is also faster to build in but takes more effort to design and get the design right so it can stitch together well

(I like to think outside the square to try and find the best solution - which is why I am mentioning ply here)

Balsa/cedar/paulownia strip
But thinking it through maybe design the maximum outrigger that can be built under 15kg (maybe significantly under in balsa - might be the way to go.

Then there would be a cheaper option to build it in WRC with more normal glass weights for a total of around 45lbs. Or Paulownia for around 5 to 7 less.

You see for me to draw something up I have to think about how many people will build it - so have to think general use rather than for just one person. So have to analyse the possibilities.

How is your wife moving it around now?

General look of the boat
Boats need to look beautiful - right!?

There are also some subtleties in a shape required to go fast and handle nicely in a bigger chop (not that your wife will necessarily be doing that.

So thinking of something picking up the gorgeous styling of the OC1/2s but getting rid of that excessive length of 22ft. Maybe about 18ft which won't overhang a car by too much - also the reduction in length helps keep the weight down.

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Imagelinkoffsite/oc2.jpg

Length is never a problem in boats - it is width/girth that makes them unwieldy on shore - as well as weight.

Much nicer to both build and paddle something gorgeous!

Michael

[Don Nethercott]

Mik, looks like you are doing a lot of thinking. I agree it is good to think outside the square - just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't be done.

I do not know what the market would be for such a design, but one couple in the Clarence Valley Dragons Abreast group have bought two of the kevlar outriggers to train in. There are hunderds, maybe thousands of women in Australia paddling these Dragons Abreast dragon boats. Problem with the dragon boats is they need at least 16 paddlers to do a training session.

While speed and beauty would be nice, the real purpose is training so the fitness levels improve to make the dragon boating more effective. It is a peculiar style of paddling, quite different to canoes and kayaks, but very similar to outriggers.

Our current kayak is an Australis 2up plastic which is 4000mm long and weight 32kg (although the specs on the web reckon 26kg).

Janette can only use it if I am home and can help her put it in. I can do it by myself but it is a struggle. We have to go down steps and around a corner and down more steps (about 10 feet vertical height) then onto the jetty. Then the water is 2 to 6 feet down depending on the tide. In addition the paddling style is not the same as the dragon boat.

I admit that the piccy you have posted is magnificient.

I found reference to some plans on the web, but they don't mention weight or building materials.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/plans.html

http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/lepalepa/index.html

Must admit I am still impressed with your 12 LB canoe - wonder if one of the canoes in the links above could be built in ply.

Thanks for the time you are spending on this.

Don

[Boatmik]

I admit that the piccy you have posted is magnificient.

I found reference to some plans on the web, but they don't mention weight or building materials.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/plans.html

http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/lepalepa/index.html

Must admit I am still impressed with your 12 LB canoe - wonder if one of the canoes in the links above could be built in ply.

Thanks for the time you are spending on this.

Don

It is time well spent Don.

I had a look at those sites. They are both nice boats well suited to their traditional purpose, but they don't suit your purposes...

1/ They have too much surface area - look at the pics compared to the minimalism of the OC1s - so will weigh heaps. I reckon about 140lbs for the whole blancmange. I reckon a shorter version of the OC1 could get down around the 25 to 35lb mark in balsa strip - just no comparison.

2/ They really are either sailing boats or derived for two or three muscular locals (in their indigenous form) to paddle out some distance and carry a decent load back - so will be really cumbersome for one person to paddle.

3/ their height above the water will mean they blow around badly when the wind gets up - so then the locals will hoist a sail - but as a pure paddling boat it just doesn't make sense.

Also "beautiful" sells - so I tend to maintain it as a priority :-)

Best Regards

Michael

[Boatmik]

First Draft of the OC1 main hull for cedar or balsa strip.

It has been biased towards lighter paddlers up to around 145lbs.

It has a similar volume distribution to the longer boats but I have chopped off the stern to get rid of about 2 1/2 feet and then squeezed a little shorter. The hullform has also been biased a little toward a tad more stability

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[Don Nethercott]

Thanks for the comments on the outriggers in the links. makes sense what you said.

The first draft looks good. Will be interested in how it turns out in the end.

I reread the whole article on your balsa canoe - and the comments re being easily dinted and holed make balsa a less attractive option.

Don

[Boatmik]

Hi Don,

Light boats often require careful handling - whether it is a foam sandwich racing dinghy or one of the other OC1s - made of carbon fibre. Or even a larger cedar strip racing dinghy - the bulk (width and beam) starts to make them much harder to move around.

The factor that carbon or balsa structures have in their favour is that they are so light - makes it a lot easier to move them around without knocking and they don't extert a lot of force if they do knock into something.

Remember too that I used the Balsa Canoe over a 5 year period and then was able to sell it for more money than I've ever made on any of my boats because it was in good shape.

And at least it is easy to repair - unlike the carbon boats that are a similar weight and similarly fragile - but have to be taken to a factory to be repaired - and a repair to a $6000 carbon boat will be in proportion to its cost!

Best Regards
MIK