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TTIT
1st March 2006, 02:22 PM
Rescued some swarf from a recent bit of brass drilling I did so I could try it as a filler. Poured it into the holes, drowned it in superglue, sanded it off and really like the effect. Problem is it's a bit coarser than I'd like and I can't find a supplier in Oz of anything finer - anyone know any?:confused: :confused: :confused: . I found some on Ebay in the UK but I'm wary of buying from the other side of the planet. Also tried our local key-cutter but he also cuts aluminium and steel keys - the steel I can deal with but how do you separate the aluminium out?:confused: :confused:

PS: The wood is Bauhinia. I've never seen it worked before so I thought I'd be Robinson Crusoe.

Ashore
1st March 2006, 02:28 PM
the steel I can deal with but how do you separate the aluminium out?:confused: :confused: .
Try using a magnet:rolleyes:

CameronPotter
1st March 2006, 02:34 PM
That will get out the steel, but leave the aluminium still in with the brass.

Aluminium in its unoxidised state is quite reactive, so it could be burnt off with acid - but I don't know how effective that would be for dust (which has probably had the chance to oxidise).

Depending on how much you need, you could always buy a brass block and cut it up with a hacksaw - this would make brass dust that is fairly fine. Or a jewellers saw would make it even finer.

You could also achieve the same thing with a hand file.

Alternatively, try finding a brass supplier and see if they will give you their cutting dust.

Cam

Eddie Jones
1st March 2006, 02:36 PM
Try using a magnet:rolleyes:

A magnet for aluminium?

'mazin what they can do these days.

TTIT
1st March 2006, 02:49 PM
That will get out the steel, but leave the aluminium still in with the brass.

Aluminium in its unoxidised state is quite reactive, so it could be burnt off with acid - but I don't know how effective that would be for dust (which has probably had the chance to oxidise).

Depending on how much you need, you could always buy a brass block and cut it up with a hacksaw - this would make brass dust that is fairly fine. Or a jewellers saw would make it even finer.

You could also achieve the same thing with a hand file.

Alternatively, try finding a brass supplier and see if they will give you their cutting dust.

Cam

Hacksaw? Jewellers saw? HAND FILE? Does that come in a bottle?:rolleyes: That's a bit more elbow grease than I was hoping for but thanks for the suggestion.

Zed
1st March 2006, 03:03 PM
Hacksaw? Jewellers saw? HAND FILE? Does that come in a bottle?:rolleyes: That's a bit more elbow grease than I was hoping for but thanks for the suggestion.

brass is quite soft, so get some coarse emery paper and glue it to a bit of glass or board - nice long strokes with a brass rod will produce some very fine dust in no time. drop the lot into water and the emery dust is soon removed.

alternateivley use gold - its even softer!;)

Gil Jones
1st March 2006, 03:29 PM
In the past I have asked for (and been given) the leftover grindings from key cutting machines (most of them have a pull-out tray that collects the grindings). I do not know what keys are like in Australia, but here they are getting to be less brass, and more of other metals. Still, it is worth a try.
Just curious, why do some of y'all refer to your country as "OZ"?

durwood
1st March 2006, 03:43 PM
You used to be able to buy all different types of metal powder,
Brass, bronze,copper. a lot are used in paints usually by artists doing special things.

I had some copper which I bought from a place in Rhodes in Sydney but it was a few years ago. Also you would have to buy possibly at least a Kilo so unless you are going to get a few litres of superglue and some big knots to fill.

I wouldn't be too worried about buying from overseas, hundreds of us get stuff from all over via ebay etc. It would just be a costly exercise but that depends on how bad you need to get it.

Zed
1st March 2006, 03:50 PM
Just curious, why do some of y'all refer to your country as "OZ"?

OZ - "Oztraylia" - Australian "strine" slang

OZ - "Aussie / Australia" (short form for)

take your pick.

WoodWad
1st March 2006, 04:46 PM
TTIT,

Try powder coaters. They make often blast metal and glass and things with powder and sand. I picked up 1/2 kilo of bronze powder from a place in Regents Park Sydney (i think) for about $12. The powder is super fine, virtually as fine as flour.

Good luck to you.:)

PS. Zed you should get that checked out :D
Johnny.

TTIT
1st March 2006, 05:03 PM
TTIT,

Try powder coaters. They make often blast metal and glass and things with powder and sand. I picked up 1/2 kilo of bronze powder from a place in Regents Park Sydney (i think) for about $12. The powder is super fine, virtually as fine as flour.

Good luck to you.:)

PS. Zed you should get that checked out :D
Johnny.

Johnny - thanks for the tip - we actually have a powder coater out here - I'll give him a call.:)

bsrlee
1st March 2006, 10:15 PM
I think ERA Polymers sell metal powders - brass/'gold' and silver(alum) that are made for mixing in resin for 'cold bronze' casting. The stuff is treated to stop it oxidizing too. It is like fine dust, much finer than flour.

Barnes Products are another source of pigments & powders, but sell small quantities for $$$$$$$$.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
2nd March 2006, 12:04 AM
OZ - "Oztraylia" - Australian "strine" slang

OZ - "Aussie / Australia" (short form for)

take your pick.

Oh? You sure it ain't 'cos we're ruled by an 'orrible little gnome with more front than Myers?

Hickory
2nd March 2006, 01:48 AM
Don't know of your situation but around here, Craft stores have metalic dust and glitter that would serve the same purpose, Metal Flakes for Auto finish from the Auto paint suppliers (stores) they sell it for mixing custom jobs.

I like the effect in your turning, I have seen plastic resin and Turquoise and other minerals used for flaws and accents but your piece looks like a Gold Nugget find. As Opal is from your part of the globe, How available is it? and I bet that would be an interesting effect as well.

Thanks for the posting.

TTIT
3rd March 2006, 12:04 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions.:) I've done a deal with one of the keycutters who is going to slip a different tray under his cutter when he's doing aluminium keys. There must be a lot of tin in the brass they use for keys because a magnet picks up an awful lot of it. Don't know how well it will polish with a high steel content - will post a pic next time I use it.:D:D

TTIT
10th May 2006, 11:54 PM
Finally found a source of brass powder in Oz. Yaaaayyyyy!:D It was going to cost me more than $100AUS to get a kilo from the UK and I was just about to order it when I found 'Australian Metal Powder Supplies' of Guildford, NSW. Ordered the minimum 1Kg on Monday and recieved it today (Wednesday) for just $44 including freight and GST. Tried some out tonight and it gives a for more 'solid brass' look than the key-filings. One happy chappy!!!:D

Check them out at... http://www.metalpowders.com.au

Skew ChiDAMN!!
11th May 2006, 01:23 AM
So... where are the pix? :D

TTIT
11th May 2006, 10:45 AM
Steady up Skew! Only tried it on a chunk of scrap to sus it out. The powder looks very dark but when you sand and polish it - voila - looks like solid brass! :) I have a chunk of Soap Bush on the lathe at the moment with a huge crack in it. I'll try some out on it and post piccy when done.:D

CameronPotter
11th May 2006, 10:49 AM
I am also waiting in the wings to mercilessly rip off your ideas mate! :D

hughie
14th May 2006, 01:23 AM
I am also waiting in the wings to mercilessly rip off your ideas mate!

I have to confess me too. hughie :D

Skew ChiDAMN!!
14th May 2006, 07:15 PM
I'm still waiting... ;):D

TTIT
14th May 2006, 11:07 PM
I'm still waiting... ;):D
Been busy trying to finish a couple of other projects... http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=31841:D

Will get to it this week:)

TTIT
19th May 2006, 12:31 AM
Thankfully, Soap-wood turns out to be absolute crap to work with so binning this piece won't be too heart wrenching! :(This stuff took the edge off every tool instantly and the only dust created when sanding was the sandpaper disintegrating:mad:. The more I turned it, the more cracks it provided to be filled - real handy!:eek: The shape was determined by the cracks so we'll leave out any 'bad form' comments eh!:o First attempt method as follows...

Pic 1. Cracks and pith-hole.
Pic 2. Mask back of hole and crack. Fill with CA. Pour copious amounts of brass powder in hole and crack spilling powder all over the place. Try and stir it in - already set. Brush off excess powder - oops!.
Pic 3. Cut the bulk of the excess away with a toothpick cutter.
Pic 4. Sanded down a bit showing a few holes still.
Pic 5. Fill remaining low spots with CA and try to force the powder into the glue with a small brush while pouring the powder on. Sanded a bit more.

Could have done with one more fill but not worth it for this piece.

Problems so far...

Need either thinner or slower setting CA. The $2 shop stuff goes off INSTANTLY when the powder hits it so you don't get time to wet it evenly. Is the "HotStuff" CA that Carbatec sell more suitable???? :confused: NOTE: Filling the crack with the powder then pouring on the CA does NOT work - yes I did try it and it just sets a crust on top - very messy.

Need better (any) method of dipensing the powder - will look for a little plastic puffer bottle or something. Shovelling it on with a V-chisel and a case of the shakes just ain't working! Too much, too quick.

Anyone know anything about "cold casting" and how it's done?????:confused: I'm sure it could give a more 'solid-brass' look with a more refined technique. Any suggestions????:confused::confused::confused::confused:

TTIT
19th May 2006, 12:35 AM
Pic 6. I did read once where you shouldn't polish from metal to wood - didn't sink in did it! Couldn't understand where the black ring was coming from when I hit it with the EEE - but it did bring the brass up nice!!! How do I fix that one Neil???:confused:
Pic 7. Couple of coats of Danish oil and ready for the bin. Just another learning experience.:o;):D:)

Skew ChiDAMN!!
19th May 2006, 02:44 AM
Personally I rather like it. The pitting in the brass suits the cracks in the timber. Shame about the black ring though, I reckon it'd be a fairly easy sale at our stall otherwise.

People's taste can be rather... unsual. :rolleyes:

CameronPotter
19th May 2006, 10:17 AM
Nice work.

When filling cracks myself I start off with thin CA. Then I put in some filler, then medium CA. Then more filler kind of pressed in from the top. I use disposablelatex gloves and do it all by hand (no brushes to leave bristles behind and better control and more pressure).

I use the glues from Carbatec (because I can buy them locally).

It has worked for me very well the two times I did it, mind you, the cracks were never quite so large.

Still, worth experimenting.

As for metal to wood, my advice is probably don't use EEE. I have had the same trouble with using EEE on some pens (getting EEE near the bushings). Now I am more careful, but you could simply skip the EEE step.

Cam

TTIT
19th May 2006, 10:24 AM
Nice work.

When filling cracks myself I start off with thin CA.
I use the glues from Carbatec (because I can buy them locally).

Cam

Cam - would you consider the Carbatec thin CA to be thinner than the $2 shop stuff?:confused: When you have to add freight to EVERYTHING, you tend to think twice about buying something just to see what it's like!:o

CameronPotter
19th May 2006, 10:27 AM
Yep. Without a doubt. The thin CA is pretty much like water, the medium CA is more like what you might buy from the $2 shop.

Mind you, Tassie weather is a little different from Emerald weather (I'll swap ya mate) and so the glues may react slightly differently as I know that they are a bit heat sensitive.

Anyway, the better CA's aren't cheap, but so far as I am concerned, they are worth it.

Cam

TTIT
19th May 2006, 10:41 AM
Yep. Without a doubt. The thin CA is pretty much like water, the medium CA is more like what you might buy from the $2 shop.

Mind you, Tassie weather is a little different from Emerald weather (I'll swap ya mate) and so the glues may react slightly differently as I know that they are a bit heat sensitive.

Anyway, the better CA's aren't cheap, but so far as I am concerned, they are worth it.

Cam

At this time of year the temp' shouldn't be a problem and the shed is air-cond' for the rest of the time so it should be OK. Sounds like the thin stuff will mix better with the very fine powder so I'll get out the plastic and report back in a week or so!

CameronPotter
19th May 2006, 10:49 AM
I keep my stuff in the shed, but most people on the mainland keep it in a fridge when not in use.

But, yes, I really found that it worked beautifully.

I hope you get the same results. :D

Cam

ribot
20th May 2006, 10:58 AM
A chainsaw file removes material at a good rate and it's very fine. The plus side is you can choose the quality of material you want to file.

Another thought is you could use your belt sander.

TTIT
1st June 2006, 12:21 AM
Got the thin CA as planned - makes a big difference! Found the brass still cakes up if you just drop the CA on the powder but it penetrates about 3mm first which is all that's required much of the time. Got a plastic puffer bottle for the powder (had to buy and tip out the craft glue) but still have a little trouble controlling the supply because I cut the tip way too big. After a test with the new glue in a couple of drilled holes, I thought I'd get fancy and printed out my initials 18mm high.
Pic 1. Glued this to a scrap of red cedar and carved out as best I could - a bit rough actually!
Pic 2. Filled the recess with CA and let it dry to try and stop the thin CA flowing into the grain next time I wet it. Helped a bit but cedar is so porous that the CA appeared as far as 30mm away anyhow. Wet the recess again and poured some brass powder on.
Pic 3. After the first sanding, you can see where I started filling the 'V' first that it filled quite well but by the time I got to the 'B', most of the CA had gone and it didn't quite fill properly.
Pic 4. Topped the holes up and sanded again.
Pic 5. Shellawax cream, EEE and more Shellawax cream and it doesn't look too bad for first attempt. (CA on the left, Brass powder bottle on right)

Lessons learnt....
Work one spot at a time.
Tip powder in to only very wet area.
I need sharper carving tools for soft timber!

Brass powder $44. CA $22 - Worth it? I think so. 1Kg of powder is going to fill a hell of a lot of holes!

CameronPotter
1st June 2006, 12:26 AM
Awesome work!

But I didn't know your name was Vic Bitter... ;)


Glad to see that the better glue was worth it for you.

Cam

hughie
1st June 2006, 01:23 AM
TTIT,
Now that has some interesting possibilities. I think it would look well with a lot of timber colours and grain patterns. Hmm this has got me thinking but it'll have to wait till I get few of my more out standing turning done.
hughie

TTIT
1st June 2006, 09:11 AM
But I didn't know your name was Vic Bitter... ;)
Cam

Mothers milk!!!;) Was my first drop and will probably be my last too!:D

Skew ChiDAMN!!
1st June 2006, 10:32 AM
Mothers milk!!!;) Was my first drop and will probably be my last too!:D

Your mother dropped you into a keg? What a waste of good beer... :D

As you're gluing with CA anyway, I wonder how copper would go as an alternative? With a CA finish after sanding, of course. Or mebbe aluminium? Come to that, I can't help but wonder how it'd look if you did a "bodgy" job with brass and used copper or aluminium to patch the holes.

I'm almost tempted to try it for myself... perhaps the next time I come across that "special" piece.

TTIT
1st June 2006, 01:35 PM
TTIT,
Now that has some interesting possibilities. I think it would look well with a lot of timber colours and grain patterns. Hmm this has got me thinking but it'll have to wait till I get few of my more out standing turning done.
hughie

Should look great in a piece of Gidgee (;) ;) ;) ):D

TTIT
1st June 2006, 01:48 PM
With a CA finish after sanding, of course.

:confused: ? To stop tarnishing ?:confused:

Skew ChiDAMN!!
1st June 2006, 03:57 PM
:confused: ? To stop tarnishing ?:confused:

Yup. I like the colour of fresh copper, but it tarnishes too damned quickly otherwise.

CameronPotter
1st June 2006, 04:18 PM
However, highly reflective metal finishes would reduce the contrast between the brass and copper. Thus, if you want to seal it (to stop oxidisation), you should probably leave it with a matte finish under the CA.

This is why most mokume gane jewellery is not highly polished...

Skew ChiDAMN!!
1st June 2006, 08:33 PM
However, highly reflective metal finishes would reduce the contrast between the brass and copper. Thus, if you want to seal it (to stop oxidisation), you should probably leave it with a matte finish under the CA.

This is why most mokume gane jewellery is not highly polished...

You're assuming I want high contrast, but in this sort of application I think the main contrast should be between the metal and wood. I'd want the colour variations in the metal to be more subtle, which is why I'd use it in the rough holes left from brassing so they merge to an extent...

Perhaps with a plain wood, either very pale or ebonised, I'd have the metal as the feature... but in that case I'd be more inclined to machine/etch the brass anyway, resulting in crisper lines and better contrast when the copper goes in.

It's the same difference as between laminating acrylics and colouring your own, if you follow what I mean?

(And I'm still thinking of throwin some aluminium in the mix just for the odd highlight. :D )

HandyAndrea
1st June 2006, 09:32 PM
If any of you want to buy a tiny amount of the metallic powders, cake-decorators use them to gild or silver or bronze non-edible cake decorations. I think (from memory) the powders can be bought in 1/4 oz plastic vials. Enough for a good number of experiments!

In the same vein.... one of the woodworking mags (sorry, forget which one) had an article on using those thin sheets of gilding metal in a very innovative way. They applied it onto turned articles through such things as onion bags, then distressed it with acids and other chemicals to make a gorgeous array of colour. They then neutralized the chemicals and waxed or coated the articles. I'll try to find the article next week (sorry, I'm busy for the next few days).

rodent
2nd June 2006, 03:11 AM
the aluminium is lighter than brass so sprinkle it on water and skim of the ally or you could always do the miners trick in the gold pan .as for the fineness time to make a mortar and pestle i think brass is very brittle.

CameronPotter
2nd June 2006, 09:58 AM
Fair enough Skew. I just thought that I would make sure that you understood that. Copper and brass will be hard to tell apart when highly polished (tricks of the eye).

However, if you are just looking for subtle variation almost shading, then that is fine.

I was thinking that you were looking for a visible variation from copper to brass.

Aluminium should be fine either way.

Cam

keith53
2nd June 2006, 10:11 AM
Personally I rather like it. The pitting in the brass suits the cracks in the timber. Shame about the black ring though, I reckon it'd be a fairly easy sale at our stall otherwise.

People's taste can be rather... unsual. :rolleyes:

I agree with Skew. Put it on ebay or take it to a hippy market. Nice effect though.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
2nd June 2006, 06:48 PM
the aluminium is lighter than brass so sprinkle it on water and skim of the ally or you could always do the miners trick in the gold pan .as for the fineness time to make a mortar and pestle i think brass is very brittle.

I see you finally remembered your password. :D

keju
23rd June 2006, 11:02 PM
Try here:
http://www.metalpowders.com.au/

juvy

Doc Ron
29th June 2006, 12:55 AM
Hi. Here is another possibility for separating brass and aluminum. Aluminum is quite soluble in strong alkaline solutions. I might suggest making a solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate) and soaking the mixture in it. Cautions - the aluminum will be quite reactive, giving off heat and hydrogen gas. Do this outdoors, use a non reactive container, such as glass or ceramic, wear eye protection and rubber gloves.
A stronger alkali, such as lye, would work better, but the reaction would probably be out of control, and the lye is more dangerous to people, though the soap makers use it all the time.
It might be necessary to clean up the brass afterwards with a mild acid.

I have not tried this myself, but intend to do so soon. My suggestion comes from chemical knowledge ( my profession), so I am sure it will work. If you try, do be aware of the safety precautions, and start with a very small amount, only a few grams.
Incidentally, there is a comercial drain cleaner that uses lye mixed with aluminum powder. When it gets wet in the drain, it releases hydogen gas which helps it foam and break up the clog.

I have been reading this forum for a few weeks and am happy to now be a member.

Doc Ron

steve H
2nd July 2006, 08:58 PM
what about using glitter?:)

Doc Ron
12th July 2006, 12:41 AM
Here are a couple pix of brass filling obtained from the local hardware store's key cutter, a mix of brass and aluminum, most likely. I turned in a shallow groove, poured in the powder, then added thin CA. Back on the lathe, turn, scrape, sand, and polish. Detail shows the rough texture. The fellow at the hardware said " Looks like an old brass casting" I think it might work better artistically on a more rustic piece (?) . Wood is black walnut from a 150 year old barn, oil finish, each about 15 cm. diameter.

I think it will be worthwhile to check out some of the other sources mentioned in this thread. Nearest powder coater is 50 min drive away, but we have some art and craft supply stores locally.

Doc Ron

Skew ChiDAMN!!
12th July 2006, 05:03 PM
I like it. I think you're right when you say it'd be more suitable to rustic items, but then again, a lot of my work turns out to be rustic, even if it wasn't planned that way. ;)

The photos don't really show whether you can pick the aluminium in the swarf, is it particularly noticable? I guess I'll have to give it a try...

Tony Morton
12th July 2006, 11:37 PM
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=26337&stc=1&d=1152707567Just trying my first picture red cedar cap with brass powder.

Cheers Tony

Doc Ron
13th July 2006, 08:24 AM
I like it. I think you're right when you say it'd be more suitable to rustic items, but then again, a lot of my work turns out to be rustic, even if it wasn't planned that way. ;)

The photos don't really show whether you can pick the aluminium in the swarf, is it particularly noticable? I guess I'll have to give it a try...

Thanks.:)
Can't really distinguish the aluminum, overall appearance just a bit silvery rather than really brassy.
Doc Ron

keju
13th July 2006, 01:18 PM
Hi Guys
Husband of keju, I see in one her previous posts she has given you the addy that we get our powder from, when I use the brass, bronz, copper or tin powder I generally use it with either casting resin a lot of people use it with west system glue a much better and way more expensive type of glue, usually mixed in a 30 mm shot glass general usage is 4 teaspoons per 30 mm shot glass, I might add either system does not like temperatures below 18 deg celsius, so if your going to use below 18 deg put the shot glass in a saucer of hot water to warm it up it makes it more plyable and easier to use, after you pour it into or onto whatever your making tap the object on a bench for a while this brings out all the air bubbles and makes your finished item look good without all those nasty little air bubbles and whatever metal you use it is easy too turn and sand with ease with ordinary cloth backed Hermes J Flex sandpaper and when you have done that you can get an even better finish using OO & OOOO steel wool, have fun experimenting I know I did
Ken (the downtrodden hubby) :D :D :D

hughie
16th July 2006, 01:02 AM
Here are a couple pix of brass filling obtained from the local hardware store's key cutter, a mix of brass and aluminum, most likely. I turned in a shallow groove, poured in the powder, then added thin CA. Back on the lathe, turn, scrape, sand, and polish. Detail shows the rough texture. The fellow at the hardware said " Looks like an old brass casting" I think it might work better artistically on a more rustic piece (?) . Wood is black walnut from a 150 year old barn, oil finish, each about 15 cm. diameter.


Doc, I agree with the Wood whisperer. Damn nice finish, very effective. So much so its got me thinking about getting some. hughie