Cadet MK2

[meerkat]

We've picked up a cadet Mk2 to fix up for our son to compete (and be competitive in) next season. The hull is in good nick but the deck needs replacing.

What is the best way to proceed ?

eg take the deck off as whole pieces to use as templates for the replacements etc.

the foredeck is in 2 pieces should we do the same or make it one piece (if we can get a sheet big enough) etc.

I'll be getting some piccies to show the progress shortly.

Thanks
Andrew

[Boatmik]

We've picked up a cadet Mk2 to fix up for our son to compete (and be competitive in) next season. The hull is in good nick but the deck needs replacing.

What is the best way to proceed ?

eg take the deck off as whole pieces to use as templates for the replacements etc.

the foredeck is in 2 pieces should we do the same or make it one piece (if we can get a sheet big enough) etc.

I'll be getting some piccies to show the progress shortly.

Thanks
Andrew

Howdy Andrew,

First thing is to have a look at the class rules to find out what you can get away with.

http://www.cadetclass.org/documents/2005/ICC%20Rules2005.pdf.

For a competitive boat you should use premium materials - gaboon plywood for the decks

Any framing to be replaced should be Western Red cedar - or cheaper and lighter Kirri/Paulownia.

Glue and sealing the panels before fitting to the boat - epoxy. With coating make sure it is rolled out thin so it doesn't add too much weight - three thinly applied coats - but don't thin the epoxy - see my FAQ.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=28522

Also ee my boatbuilding FAQ for info on wet-on-wet epoxy coating to save some labour and use of cordless screwdrivers for holding everything together while the glue sets up.

There are pics of a lot of the same processes on Midge's Puddle Duck pages.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=28107

Am in a rush now - but will put more info up later.

oh, yes - deck sheets are best of one piece as far as possible - but can be scarfed or have butt blocks under (we had to repair a sheet on the Puddle Duck Racer thread - scarfs are 6 times ply thickness, butt straps are 20 times ply thickness.

MIK

[meerkat]

hi Mik

I read through your FAQs (might I say quite interesting and well put together) and I have a few questions.

Rather than using 2 pt polyurethane you recommened using epoxy with a poly topping (1) is this right ? The coats of epoxy are as thin as you can get them.

So i'm thinking....
the deck has 2-3 coats of epoxy with a coat of poly

inside has the 2-3 coats of poly (unless the epoxy is good there too). The problem with the inside is that there is some drips of epoxy that has been left there from a previous attempt to repair the deck as well as some black lines going across the boat and up the sides(why I dont know). so I'm not sure how that will come out.

The hull will be painted.

Oh yeah, after removing the lid there are a lot of holes left by screws, copper nails and yes even steel nails :mad: that have rusted & expanded and left holes like what screws do !

Whats the best to fill these with and will that affect the nails going back in ?

thanks
Andrew

[Boatmik]

hi Mik

I read through your FAQs (might I say quite interesting and well put together) and I have a few questions.

Rather than using 2 pt polyurethane you recommened using epoxy with a poly topping (1) is this right ? The coats of epoxy are as thin as you can get them.

So i'm thinking....
the deck has 2-3 coats of epoxy with a coat of poly

inside has the 2-3 coats of poly (unless the epoxy is good there too). The problem with the inside is that there is some drips of epoxy that has been left there from a previous attempt to repair the deck as well as some black lines going across the boat and up the sides(why I dont know). so I'm not sure how that will come out.

The hull will be painted.

Oh yeah, after removing the lid there are a lot of holes left by screws, copper nails and yes even steel nails :mad: that have rusted & expanded and left holes like what screws do !

Whats the best to fill these with and will that affect the nails going back in ?

thanks
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

You probably don't need to put any nails back in. See the FAQs I gave the links to previously about
Cordless drill and,
Eliminating fastenings.

As far as gluing you just need to hold things together while the epoxy sets up - no need for permanent nails or screws.

As far as drips etc on the inside remove them by sanding - random orbit sander is good here - about 100 grit paper - be VERY careful not to cut away at the plywood veneers!!!
____________________________________

Before committing yourself to lots of epoxy coating it may be worthwhile reading the rules about what is a and what isn't counted in the hullweight and then weighing the boat in that condition.

Also read whether lead (metal) correction weights are allowable and checking whether there are any fitted - remove them before weighing.

The decision tree goes a little like this.

If the boat is much more than 5kg over - it is a short term boat - it will be pretty well impossible to get it down to the minimum. Clean it up just as much as you need to get it on the water. Your son will race it for a year or so and then will start to have enough experience to make a better boat go well. Don't spend too much money on this type of boat.

If the boat is only a kilo or two over it is a good boat if it is ready to go in good sailing condition. Just patch up to keep going, you can't afford to add much weight in epoxy (or anything else) so just two very thin coats. Bote Cote have a product called TPRDA that thins epoxy out without destroying its capacity to protect the timber - use it to the max allowed - roll the epoxy out well spread. Adding thinners to epoxy is not cool for boat use.

If the boat is under weight by a kilo or more - you're in luck. Provided the hull is stiff and fair (the chines and panels have nice geometric shapes - nice even curves, no hollows and bumps) this is the sort of competitive boat that is worth fixing up and giving the full epoxy treatment to.

So weigh it and see what you've got.

____________________________

2 pot polyurethane is only really for finishing the decks off - it gives a very strong surface with a good appearance, you would need 3 coats minimum. As an alternative you can use a good spar varnish as an alternative or paint the decks with a marine enamel.

YOu wouldn't use any of the above inside the bouyancy tanks as their purpose is to give a good appearance..

If the boat is two or more kilos overweight an alternative for inside is to use Everdure - a couple of coats. It is nowhere near as effective in keeping water out of the wood as using epoxy, but it doesn't weigh as much.

Epoxy coating is good from a wood and weight preservation perspective, but it will add a couple of kilos to the hull weight - even if you are careful.

If the boat is going to end up being pretty competitive with that added weight (ie no more than a kilo over minimum) then epoxy is a worthwhile investment - depending on how much labour is involved. Or just add the epoxy as you do work on the boat.
___________________________

The most common pitfall is that someone in your position gets all excited about fixing the boat up. They lose track of the fact that the boat is probably pretty close to sailable now. I would suggest doing the minimum you can get away with until you find out how commited your son is.

Another thing is not to overcapitalise an old boat unless it can be competitive - ie close to minimum weight, fair and stiff. Don't add new sails, new masts to an old clunker. Maybe pick up some second hand sails from some of hte top sailors in the class if the ones you have are shot. Replace other things as necessary. Then see how enthusiastic your son is after the first season.

A cheaper and a better way to get a fast boat is to buy a good second hand racing boat that is doing well in its fleet than to completely re-outfit an older boat with new sails, mast, rigging and fittings.

So weigh the boat and inspect it so you know whether it is a goodie.

If it is a bit heavy or out of shape - just do the minimum to keep it going - after the season sell it for what your bought it for and get a current competitive boat.
____________________________

One labour intensive but very effective way to lift performance is to make some highly accurate and smooth foils - rudder and centreboard. They can then be moved onto a new boat when the time comes.

Shape is important so you have to use templates - contact me on
[email protected]
if you are after templates and an instruction sheet.
______________________

Sorry this is a bit rambling - trying to cover a lot of ground

[meerkat]

hi Mik

thanks for the info it is really appreciated. This is my sons first complete season in the cadets and is looking forward to many more.

The minimum hull weight plus fixtures (not loose items) is 54kg.

The boat less fittings and the deck is approx. 45kg. No additional weights are in the boat as it is.

So adding the deck and fittings (I estimate 2kg) and a kg as buffer I'm looking at about 6kg spare.

based on this I think it's a goer for a half decent job. I'm currently stripping the 6 or so layers of paint off the hull (I don't like the colour for some reason:)).

My aim is to fix only what needs fixing, repaint the hull, replace the dud fittings and to get the lid replaced. The sails are in good nick and the mast/boom are quite reasonable.

I will however need to look at the centreboard and rudder though. They have seen a little work:)

Thanks
Andrew

[meerkat]

Finally got some pictures to the right size.

The first three are what we started with.

The fourth is with the lid off.

Currently taking the paint off.

[Boatmik]

You have done very well with selecting the hull! It sounds like a keeper!

Epoxy is the go and will give it a good racing life.

Gaboon ply decks in the thinnest allowed by the rules.

The join in the decks is in the right place for most economical ply and the foredeck mid stringer is wide enough for both to land on.

If you are removing the paint you'll probably have to replace the glass tape on the chines too. See the puddle duck racer thread for where the bottom was coated and the glass tape whacked down at the same time. All happens in one process - wet on wet. Glass tape 50mm wide. Don't round the chines too much - existing amount will be OK - but you want the last 3ft of the chines and transom corners dead sharp for clean water release - best to have a round there for the fibreglass tape to go on and then bog it out to a sharp edge with epoxy/filler powder mix.

Sounds like the hull is a good basis for improvements of sails and rig later on - but the first season with the existing ones.

There are probably some Cadet tuning guides on the net that may have things that you can do at this stage and also things like fittings placements on deck. You may need to work out where fittings will end up and glue the smallest possible pieces of 9mm ply (gaboon as well) under the decks to screw the fittings down to where you can't use bolts (all bolts should be Nylock heads - it costs a bit more but adds hugely to the realiability of the boat.

Any screws or bolts should be dipped in epoxy to prevent water getting into the hull and it also increases the grip of the fastening manyfold (to remove an epoxied fastening you just heat it with a soldering iron for a couple of minutes).

Boatmik

[meerkat]

Hi Mik

How much Epoxy should I expect to use ?

Andrew

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

I would expect that you would use probably a little over 3 litres - so a 6 litre pack would make the most sense - or buy a 3 litre pack and be ready to buy a bit more as you need to.

You will need a kilo approximately of a powder modifier to add to the epoxy to thicken it into a gap filling glue.

Also some TPRDA diluent for where you use the epoxy for coating the ply - it will help spread it out thinly. Don't use the TPRDA in the epoxy where you are gluing or glassing.

I have also added a page to my site about what I did to get a geriatric Sabre in some sort of racing condition.
See http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Faq/dinghyracing.html

Best Regards
Michael

[meerkat]

hi Michael,

I've printed off your story (i hope you don't mind) and given it to my son to read, I found it very enlightening.

I picked up the kirri and was stunned on it's properties. The weight/strength are quite surprising.

I have also got the Gaboon so this weekend will be a little busy.

I'll be picking up the poxy on Friday if all goes well.

Regards
Andrew

[Boatmik]

Howdy -

Where did you get the Kirri from? I have a client building a Eureka Canoe in Melbourne who is trying to get some. He wants to build it light too.

By the way - it might be worthwhile seeing if the class rules or class plans specify the minimum and maximum sizes of any of the solid timber parts. Use the minumum for everything except the width that the gunwales go out from the side of the boat.

The gunwale should be maximum to increase righting moment. In fact - it should be at the maximum from the shrouds to the back of the cockpit (where the crew will be - and minumum everywhere else to save weight.

MIK

[meerkat]

Hey Michael,

David at Port Phillip Plantation Shutters (they are importers of Kirri/Paulownia too) would be more than happy to help out.

email : [email protected]

You may also want to have a chat with him about making up kits etc for your canoe as well.

Just let him know Andrew from Hoppers Crossing sent you.

He also showed me photos of a large boat being made from this. Its interesting stuff.

Regards
Andrew

[Boatmik]

Thanks hugely for the paulownia contact!

It is perfect stuff for lightweight craft - straight grain - good gluing properties, easy to machine.

And epoxy sealing means that this low density wood won't suck up water or rot away.

Thanks again!!!

Michael

[meerkat]

No Problem Michael, my Invoice is in the mail :eek::D:D:D

The piece I am replacing in the cadet is meranti and its lighter than that. I'd love to see one built soley out of Paulownia/Gaboon ply just to see the weight difference.

Yep I can't agree more, it looks like a great wood.

They are also using this stuff in caravans, motor homes etc to keep the weight down. Great for wall panelling as well.

With some scraps try laminating the stuff its light and strong.

Regards
Andrew

[meerkat]

Also some TPRDA diluent for where you use the epoxy for coating the ply - it will help spread it out thinly. Don't use the TPRDA in the epoxy where you are gluing or glassing.

Can anyone tell me where I get the TPRDA in Melbourne ? I Live out west so I don't really want to drive a couple of hrs to pick up this stuff if I can avoid it.

Thanks
Andrew

[bitingmidge]

Andrew,

Even though Marine Timbers aren't way out west,phone them and get them to pop it on a delivery truck.

I get my stuff from BoatCraft south of Brisbane, it arrives overnight and the cost of delivery is $8.00, a LOT less than the cost of driving to pick it up!

Don't be afraid to get stuff delivered!

Cheers,

P

[meerkat]

Andrew,

Even though Marine Timbers aren't way out west,phone them and get them to pop it on a delivery truck.

I get my stuff from BoatCraft south of Brisbane, it arrives overnight and the cost of delivery is $8.00, a LOT less than the cost of driving to pick it up!

Don't be afraid to get stuff delivered!

Cheers,

P

Thanks for that prompting, what size should I get ?

Andrew

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

The TPRDA can be used up to about 20 percent from memory - so maybe 500mls or a litre.

It is not very expensive. They have the epoxy, glue powder additive, glass tape, pumps, low density filler powder (for easy sanding when filling holes or dents.

Did I mention that you should get a copy of the Bote Cote book - cheap and lots of useful info.

Best Regards
Michael

[meerkat]

Well it was suggested that I take off the brass rubbing strips and replace them with lighter ones.

I'm glad I did because there are a few spots where the screws had let some water in etc and the wood has started to rot/go furry. Also out of curiosity I weighed them and it added up to almost 2kg of brass on the bottom.:eek:

So I'm about to get the gaboon ply for the deck and I was wondering whether 3mm with the epoxy coats would be strong enough or it would be best to get 4mm to be sure.

Also what would be the best to use for rubbing strips ?

Thanks
Andrew

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Do the rules allow 3mm? I would expect them to have 4mm (3/16") as a minimum - so check first.

My feeling is that if the boat is looking like it will be well underweight use 4mm - they will be a little less prone to surface splitting along the grain as the face veneers are thicker. And the gaboon is 25 percent lighter than the next lightest ply anyhow.

Usually the factory sands 4mm on both sides to make 3mm - so the face veneers are quite thin.

As far as the rubbing strips - check the rules. If you don't need them under the rules leave them off. If you don't have to use metal ones make them out of wood - a hardwood like Tassie Oak or other would be fine. Make them the minimum size under the rule - well rounded with ends well tapered down to minimise disturbance to the water flow. If they have to be of metal - make them of aluminium.

If the metal strips have to bend round the stem bend before drilling. If you drill first they will break at the hole.

If metal strip bed them and the fastenings that hold them in sikaflex - it will isolate the dissimilar metals and cuts the risk of galvanic corrosion.

Don't let anyone talk you into using silicone sealer on boats. It buggrs up painting and doesn't really work very well.

Michael

[Boatmik]

Why I hate silicone - by Michael age 47 1/2

You can't paint it.

You can's sand it.

It doesn't stick well enough to be structural or to stop boat type leaks in its own right

It doesn't stick poorly enough to be easily removed.

When the thinners from paints hit it they spread its unpaintability to nearby areas which it hasn't contacted directly. YOu can the wash and sand to try and get rid of the residue and it just spreads it over the whole area so that the paint bubbles in an intermittent sort of way.

The only place it works is underneath fittings that are bolted or screwed to the boat - but ONLY on boats that will never be painted - even fibreglass boats may be painted one day - so what boats could they be?

Use a polyurethane sealer like sikaflex.

MIK

Disclaimer - if I sound bitter it's because of bitter experience. I worked as a professional boat painter and varnisher over several years - silicone sealant was the #1 reason for having to redo work that we thought was finished.

[meerkat]

Well we are up to removing the old varnish with what appears to have a stain mixed in on the inside of the boat.

Other than sanding what are some other ways of removing this as I don't want as mish mash of colours through the new coats.

Thanks

[bitingmidge]

Other than sanding, I'm a great fan of cabinet scrapers, which is a flash word for a bit of tin(steel really) which has been "sharpened".

Hold with two hands and get all the stuff off in a pass or two.

If you need more info get back and I'll try to find a few web references.

Cheers,

P :D

[Boatmik]

Other than sanding, I'm a great fan of cabinet scrapers, which is a flash word for a bit of tin(steel really) which has been "sharpened".

Hold with two hands and get all the stuff off in a pass or two.

If you need more info get back and I'll try to find a few web references.

Cheers,

P :D

Ah midge - I disagree - this doesn't happen often - so we can enjoy the novelty of it!!!

Plywood is made up of such thin veneers that the staining will go through the full thickness of the surface veneer. Scraping will make little or no difference. If it was a solid teak drawer fascia - I would be with Midge - but for ply - nah.

You can sometimes get a bit out with some oxalic acid solution. Don't make it too strong and rinse the area well - but it won't disappear. Oxalic is an acid so if you make it too strong it will weaken the wood fibres.

The only way to get it to disappear is to replace the panel :-)

So Meerkat - have a bit of a play but you have to know in your water that it won't disappear.

She is an old boat - and she will be a FAST old boat - but you can't make her new again without replacing more of her.

I need to tell you about boatbuilder's eye too. We all get used to eyeballing our projects from a distance of 6 inches. We know every nook and cranny, every mistake and defect. BUT NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER SEE THEM. They will be so impressed at the end result that they will never look over the whole surface from 6 inches away. You have to do a few projects before you realise just how oversensitive we all get to each one.

Let's just say she has a lovely patina for an old boat.

MIK

[bitingmidge]

he he.... fight! fight! fight!!:D

In my defence I did read varnish "with what appears to be stain mixed in".

I have no qualms removing the varnish as I described.

If the stain is indeed under the varnish, and it's not "mixed in" Mik is absolutely correct. :eek: What a fizzer of an argument that was!

Cheers,

P
:D

[jmk89]

Damn, just when I was looking forward to a good stoush, you fellas kiss and make up. And remember Monsieur Midge, that the best arguments happen when everyone is right, but they are all proceeding on a misunderstanding concerning the underlying facts. If that wasn't the case, lawyers would be out of a job!

[meerkat]

I need to tell you about boatbuilder's eye too. We all get used to eyeballing our projects from a distance of 6 inches. We know every nook and cranny, every mistake and defect. BUT NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER SEE THEM. They will be so impressed at the end result that they will never look over the whole surface from 6 inches away. You have to do a few projects before you realise just how oversensitive we all get to each one.

MIK you are 100% correct. I had one of these revelations the other day when I was trying so hard to get it right, I lost it. The dummy flew. The teddy was tossed :eek:

I stormed out of the dog house (my workshop), went and had a cool down and realised that I was trying to achieve perfection. Something that I could never get.:o I walked back in clear headed and thankful for the experience.

It's always good to have someone to tap you on the shoulder and remind you of these things. Sonething that you and midge have done for me several times during this project. Thanks guys.

[meerkat]

I thought i'd spray the last coat of gloss on the hull instead of rolling it. The problem is that it didn't come out too glossy at all.

I thought it may have been because I was a little light on with the coat or not thin enough, any ideas ?

Thanks

[bitingmidge]

I thought it may have been because I was a little light on with the coat or not thin enough, any ideas ?
Or thinned too much, or the spray was too fine (too much pressure?) drying the mist on the way.....

As a definitely non-expert spray painter, I like to have a few practice goes but still manage to muck up the end result!

Did you try mucking round with the volume/air mix to make sure you got a "wet" coat?

Cheers,

P

[meerkat]

I practiced and at first it came out in globs which made me think it was wrong so I thinned it a little and made the mist finer.

Maybe I should've left it a bit globby and thinned it a little. What is a good ratio/thinner mix ?

Thanks

[meerkat]

Well I worked out why it didn't come up glossy...... I grabbed the wrong tin and put on the undercoat instead :o:o:eek:

Thats right, undercoat over the gloss what an idiot!!! Maybe I should be nominated for the darwin awards:rolleyes:

Im not sure what will happen if I leave it. Will it lift ? Will it take to the (sanded) gloss underneath, what ?

Any ideas on what to do next ?

btw I am too cranky to be embarrassed so feel free to heap it on while you can :)

[Daddles]

btw I am too cranky to be embarrassed so feel free to heap it on while you can :)

Consider yourself heaped :D

It's always gratifying to discover a rational answer to your latest stuffup though :rolleyes:

Richard

[bitingmidge]

You had me going for a while! :D :D :D

but that would do it!

cheers,

P

[meerkat]

Yup, thought I would do a "deliberate mistake" to test you guys out :D:D

.... and if you believe that you should be committed :D:D

[Daddles]

you should be committed :D:D

They keep letting me out :eek:

Richard

[meerkat]

Well my son sanded the undercoat without going back to wood and we put on a coat of you guessed it ...... gloss this time and wow it does make a difference :eek::D:D

One more and the hull is done.

[Boatmik]

Congratulations for getting so close MeerKat - and glad your son is helping too - he must be beside himself.

Now there are two things you should do.

1/ put some pics up

2/ tell us how much it weighs.

Well done.

MIK

[meerkat]

Other than clean up, whats the difference between water based stain & varnish and oil based stain & varnish ?

[meerkat]

ok piccie time.... and no jigsaw in site:p

The deck has been sealed with epoxy (& TPRDA) on the underside and the epoxied on with microfibre mixed in with it.

1. the deck on just before roughly cutting out
2. the deck after cutting out (and a visit to the doc)
3. the deck on the inside of the cockpit

You'll see in the second pic that the deck curves the wrong way which makes planing the deck to the support under it impossible. By that I mean it curves inward not outward like on the hull side.

What would be a good way to make the deck (in pic 3) flush with the support under it ?

[bitingmidge]

First Questions first:

Paint:- Mik is an EXPERT at varnish, so obviously didn't spot the question!

Water based polyeurethene's are a much harder finish than marine varnish, and probably more durable. They are also much harder to get a good finish, won't be as glossy and harder to repair.

I have seen some really top jobs with water based stuff, but mostly they range from ordinary too shockers, whereas varnish seems to be mostly fine. Mik reckons there's something aesthetically pleasing about flowing varnish off a brush.

I reckon there's something aesthetically pleasing about WATCHING someone flow varnish off a brush.

DECK TRIMMING:-

I would use the plane initially (because it's a satisfying thing to do). To do this easily it needs to be RAZOR sharp, and if you hold it at about 45° to the direction of the edge it will easily cut to the curve. Note that I used to use my only plane (the #4) but now I have a low angle block plane there's no turning back.

MIK wouldn't muck around, he'd just hit it with a belt sander with 60 grit, that's the difference between someone who's done it for a living, and a hobbiest!

I'd do the sander thing once I'd got most of it back to the line of the beam. If you don't have a belt sander, it shouldn't be too hard to do the last bit by hand with a cork block.

If you've got a spokeshave, again very sharp, that could be fun too, but note that planing end grain plywood takes the edge off a sharp blade quite quickly!

If you are really careful and have had a bit of practice, a disk sander would do it, but that'd be a last resort.

Cheers,

P:D

[journeyman Mick]

Meerkat,
is the support under the deck a fair curve, and are you trying to get the deck flush with it? If so, I'd be using a trimmer or router. But then, I'm always one to avoid handtool use except where unavoidable.

Mick

[meerkat]

hi guys

yep thought about a flush bit and rout it out, but I then was unsure how the 4mm ply would cope.

So I thought I'd have a suck and see with the belt sander. 80grit was about as course as i'd go and took it off a treat.

Now the sides and the fiddly corner bits

[Boatmik]

WELL, I was going to say ...

The plane is the best choice.

I was only using the belt sander because I have a pretty good feel for the use of it - I can keep it pretty flat or even follow a bevel. And also the PDRs that Midge was watching me work on are boats to not be too precious about.

Still like 'em to look luvverly - but there is no timber trim to get on dead flat after the cleaning up with no changes in the glue joint width through crappy handling of the belt sander (which I CAN do on the right day as well!).

For goodness sake Midge - I'm not some sort of hand tool expert.

My method is do a bit, stop and review - one thing I have learned over the years is when to stop!!!! Perhaps that is the difference between the amateur and the professional.

I tend to use the biggest fastest most monster tool available, but stop to change to slower, more accurate tools at (usually) the right time.

The router would be a slightly risky choice if there are any subtle changes in bevel or irregularities in the deck or glue drips down the face of the timber the ply is being finished flush to. With the Cadet the angle will vary the whole length a little bit.

But then I'm not a hand tool expert!!!!

By the way spend a bit of time getting the edges of the boat fair - get your eyes low and look along each of the edges you have created. If you see any bumps in the curve set a handplane to cut very fine and hassle the bit away - sight frequently.

When the gunwales go on the outside there are a couple of tricks.

The class rules will have a minimum and maximum size - they should be the minimum depth the whole length but width should be Max in line with the cockpit but minimum in line with the end decks. Check whether the rules require the gunwale to be a "fair continuous curve" in which case the transition between wide and narrow needs also to be smooth. If they don't say anything - you can have a stepped thickness - which will show the opposition just how serious you are!!!

Just about everything else should be pushed toward the minimum as far as possible.

MIK
(bottom of his woodwork class at high school)

[Boatmik]

... and you will need to get rid of the paint from where the gunwales glue on.

MIK

[meerkat]

Glued on the gunwhales and inside strip (to hide some stuff), just did the last filling around the boat before the final sand.

One interesting thing was that I mixed up some poxy with wood dust etc for colouring and it was too runny, sat it in the sun, checked it every minute or two, nothing ... nothing ... nothing then looked up and noticed some steam !!

In the matter of a minute or two it went from not ready to actually cooking from the inside out !

So I then used the remaining semi thickened stuff to fill the few remaining bits.

I'll pay closer attention next time :)

[meerkat]

Just put the firstcoat of poxy on it. It's amazing how it looks after just one coat.

I thought I got rid of the bubbles but it looks like they have congregated for a meeting in different spots.

I'm assuming that they will pop on their own. Any biggies have been helped on their way before it gets tacky.

Let you all know what happens with the next coat.

[meerkat]

Put the last coat on and tried (once again) to not create bubbles, but you guessed it, little ones popped up all over.

There is one spot that kept on producing large (a couple of mm across) regardless on what I did.

So I'm letting it cure a bit then sand it down to get the lumps (bubbles) off then on with the poly top coat.

If I was gonna do it again I'd use a squeegee instead of trying to drag the roller along it.

I gotta say, where there are no bubbles etc it looks great.

[Daddles]

Not sure what you're doing to get the bubbles Meerkat. I use rollers and squeegees to put down the poxy, but then lightly drag a piece of roller across the poxy (a third of a roller) - this usually gives me a nice, clean finish with no bubbles.

As for the difference in how it looks - remarkable isn't it.

Richard

[Boatmik]

Bubbles generally occur as the air inside the timber expands as it warms up.

It generally occurs if the day's temperature is increasing or sun hits the boat.

Can be avoided if the temperature is dropping. Also did you read my epoxy FAQ on doing the epoxy coats "wet on wet"
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/faqindex.html

MIK

[meerkat]

Hi Mik,

yep read the faq, took my time as much as the epoxy would allow anyway and did it under cover.

The one thing I didn't do was do it when the temp is dropping. :o

Nevermind, overall the finish is good so i'll just rub the spots back and move on.

Thanks

[meerkat]

Well gave the deck a rub back to remove the bubbles and put the splash guard on.

Well the splash guard was a learning experience, bloody compound joints to join it in the middle then the deck is not flat, has a natural curve just to annoy me. :mad:

Dry fit it, looks good ...

Cut the ends off each to make them the same length ...

Poxy the starboard half on first, not bad...

Stick the port one on and :eek: it's not right the angles off.:mad: I mustn't have had it sitting on the edge properly.:o

Wipe off the poxy, let it cure and slowly sand the joint to creep up on the glued on one. A track is now worn into the concrete floor by me walking back and forward sanding the joint down bit by bit.;)

Finally, poxy'd it on and remember I cut them to the same length ? ... well yup the port one is 5-10mm shorter, whilst you can notice it, it's still legal and it's staying on.:)

Filleted the guards for a little more strength, sanded them down, rounded the edges off and wiped down ready for Mr Polyurethane. Woohoo

More to follow.

[meerkat]

Well after wiping the deck down several times and waiting for the moisture to go. I noticed that inside some of the bubbles (thats had their tops taken off) is poxy dust, just like little pimples.

The damp cloth didn't get them out so I got the air gun thingy (technical term thingy:p) onto it got some of them clear, others I had to hold it so the air went across the top and basically it sucked the dust out.

Unfortunately some were really stubborn. Time to make an executive decision try something else or ask mr poly to step in.... so in he came:)

Gave the deck a once over with the poly, (note to self, that tin smelt funny better go back and have another sniff to see if I can remember where I've smelt that smell before :eek::D) and the problem pretty much disappeared with only a few little spots that most people won't notice.

I'm sure mik will point out my wrong doings but I look at it this way ....

I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT BOAT !!!!!

It has tormented me for long enough, now it's my turn, another coat or 2 and thats it I'm kicking it out of my dog house (workshop) and sending it off into the real world to earn a living for itself :D:D:D

[meerkat]

Well finished the poly etc. Put it out to put the fittings on etc, it rained and guess what, after all the epoxy I put on and thought covered everything, water has seeped in where the side rubbing strips are.

There must be little spots where the poxy didn't get to and now its soaked in under the poxy and got dark marks in the deck.:mad:

NOT HAPPY JAN !!!:mad:

I'll try to dry it out then go back to sealing it properly.

[Daddles]

ARRRGGHHHH

Bet that discovery spawned an anglo-saxon commentary.;)

Could be worse ... nah, bugger it :(

Richard

[meerkat]

thats putting it politely:D

I am sooooooooo over this thing.:mad:

[jmk89]

Meerkat

Bugger. Back to square one - I suppose that means, sand back, dry out, re-poxy, re-coat and then hope. Ouch!

Gee I'm glad I haven't started building either the PDR or the Tamar yet.

With Bleeding heart and all my sympathy

Jeremy

[meerkat]

Nope.

Season starts in a week. Need the boat. It's called tough titties now. I'll dry out as much as I can and go back to try and seal it up better.

[Boatmik]

Sometimes it is good for the frustration to hit a bit.

Makes it so much better when it hits the water and sails off to the sunset.

The water stains are a bit of a bugger - but the reality is that they will become quite unimportant over time.

I KNOW this doesn't help you right now. Anyway you are doing all the right things.

MIK

[meerkat]

Ok guys,

some for y'all :)

We weighed it yesterday and the bathroom scales showed around 54kg which is minimum weight.

SWMBO took it to the club yesterday and she was received with a lot of enthusiasm and got many compliments... and the boat got some too;):D

Thanks guys especially Boatmik, my son is over the moon and can't wait to get it out on the water.

For me I'm moving onto something more complicated, one of Tony Wards boxes.:D

Regards
Andrew

[bitingmidge]

Congratulations!

Yep it looks fantastic, and as Mick says the minor glitches will disappear in a very short time.

So one of those boxes it is, then...???

P

[Boatmik]

WOW ANDREW!!!!

Who would have thought!

Looks Quick already!

A coupla rigging things. The two saddles on the stern for the traveller. If you haven't already put 3/4" OD stainless washers (nothing smaller) between the saddle and the deck. The contact area is quite small and the base of the saddle will dig into your varnish when the boat is on a reach and the mainsheet pulls the saddles forward a bit.
_______________________________

(I've come back to edit this bit about the jib sheeting after checking some pics on the net. Your position is fine (as you probably know already)

http://www.cadet.nl/fotoalbum/180Dn3NF-groot.jpg

This is the bit I got wrong - the sheeting has to be that wide by the rules
Also the fairleads for the jib sheeting (if they are that - near the sidestay chainplates) look way too far out - they need to be on a line bang on 10degrees from the centreline measured from the forestay. Check that the class rules let you move them in that close though. Also check what the other boats are using - you may be allowed more adjustable type fittings and that is one place to put them.

A couple of marks on the foredeck at the 10 degree mark at the front of the cockpit can help to get the jib in the right place using a combination of sheet tension in the windward and leeward sheets as is the photo above.

Premarking positions on the sheet with texta is VERY worthwhile. in helping to reproduce those settings.

__________________________________

The two plastic cleats on the deck either side of the cockpit front ... the plastic ones are useless - they hardly hold in the first place and get much worse after a few sails. The aluminium ones fit in the same holes and are completely reliable for about 3 seasons. If the line that they hold is the vang or something that must be held by the cleat all the time then get the type with the closed tops. CL211 Mk2. Neat and reliable.

Generally with ropes diameters have been going down and down to cut friction as they go through the blocks. Almost eveything is 4mm these days
except for sheets which will usually be 6mm for jibs and 8mm for mainsheets. It also helps cut some of the cost. The photo above - they have made up a tapered sheet for the mainsail - it is 4mm where it isn't handled and bigger elsewhere - still looks like 6 which would be OK with an efficent vang set up.

Materials for ropes - vang, any halyard with sailing load and spinnaker sheets - spectra. Everything else can be pre-stretch or Excel (a low stretch polyester from Ronstan). Mainsheet and Jib to be double braid.

Remember too that accurate rudders and centreboards can provide a big jump in performance - but let your son get used to the boat first.

Well Done!

MIK

[Daddles]

Careful Mik, after all that work, he's not going to put it in the water where his son might sink it!

Richard

[meerkat]

WATER ???? Who said anything about putting it in water !!!;):D

[meerkat]

Ok then, we've just come back from the nationals in Hobart where it was his first time with such a large fleet.

The results were 74th overall (out of 86), 53rd on handicap and managed to get a 1st on handicap.

From where I sat (on the beach, hot and bothered) he and his crew did a great job for their first time at a nationals.

We needed to replace the old vang that didn't give him enough purchase and after that his boat speed improved.

Well the boat didn't fare so well. Stuck on the roof rack it got some travel rash, the splash gaurd has split, the repaired hole in the side has opened a little after a bump on the start line (and water has got in) and some water to seep into the bow and softened the ply around the nails. I have no idea how this happened though.

I'll be removing any soft wood around the hole once its dried out, and putting in a new piece of ply coz the original repair made by the previous owners had a mix of fibreglass and bog that I thought would last but didn't (I'll learn).

The bow will most probably end up with a fibreglass strip down the side to make sure strength etc is not compromised (once again when its dried out)

Once again, no pressure, just have to have it ready to go by the last weekend of January (thats right 2007) for Skandia week in Geelong. :doh::C

Oh and just remembered, in some places, it looks like the poly has started to seperate from the poxy. It's like theres an air bubble under the poly. Any ideas what could have started that ?

[Boatmik]

Ok then, we've just come back from the nationals in Hobart where it was his first time with such a large fleet.

The results were 74th overall (out of 86), 53rd on handicap and managed to get a 1st on handicap.

he must have been happy with the 1st! But as for the fleet he now has a standard to compare himself with. Hope he is starting to accumulate some texta marks on the boat - jibsheets for upwind, close reaching and broad reaching kite brace presets - and then the general tuning ones - vang, cunningham, outhaul etc.


We needed to replace the old vang that didn't give him enough purchase and after that his boat speed improved.Vangs have to be pretty monstrously powerful.


Well the boat didn't fare so well. Stuck on the roof rack it got some travel rash, the splash gaurd has split, the repaired hole in the side has opened a little after a bump on the start line (and water has got in) and some water to seep into the bow and softened the ply around the nails. I have no idea how this happened though.
Avoiding travel rash is a bit of an art in itself. Pick up some old carpet if you can. Never trust boat rollers for sailing boats - a cradle makes all the difference and you want as many vertical pieces of plywood over the cradle pads as possible - the bulkheads at the front and back of the cockpit are ideal places. Good wide contact area (3 to 4") covered with carpet. Also carpet under mast and boom, Rough stitch a couple of carpet "slip cases" for the rudder and centreboard. Sails inside car - not in trailer - for longer trips if possible.

Alway carry some plastic duct tape (silver 2" wide - plastic) which can seal all sorts of small cracks and abrasions - even quite big holes at times for the length of a regatta - just to keep the water out of the timber


I'll be removing any soft wood around the hole once its dried out, and putting in a new piece of ply coz the original repair made by the previous owners had a mix of fibreglass and bog that I thought would last but didn't (I'll learn). That's the problem with polyester resin and wooden structures - sometimes it sticks - sometimes it doesn't.


Once again, no pressure, just have to have it ready to go by the last weekend of January (thats right 2007) for Skandia week in Geelong. :doh::CGood Old Dad!


Oh and just remembered, in some places, it looks like the poly has started to seperate from the poxy. It's like theres an air bubble under the poly. Any ideas what could have started that ?Generally epoxy sticks pretty well to polyester - but certainly not vice versa. In all my years of fixing boats I've never had epoxy break away from polyester. Much more likely that if there is load the epoxy will transfer it to the polyester and polyester will detach from the surface. Though if there was some surface contamination or the polyester resin was a waxy "finishing resin" that is sometimes used in surfboard manufacture then that might explain why the pox didn't stick.

MIK

[meerkat]

Sorry Mik, the "poly" I used was the cockatoo to clean the deck :wink: and polyeurathane on top of the poxy.

He's now keeping records of the races, what was good/bad etc to start getting a history going.

[meerkat]

Well the repair on the repair on the side has been done, approx 3x6in in size. Cut out the old repair, cleaned and sealed with yep you guessed it, poxy:U. Put a few straps in the back (also well sealed) and put the "plug" in. Fit like a glove:2tsup:

Cleaned out the rot in the bow, soaked some poxy with tprda in it and strenghtened with some fibreglass as well.

The deck was sanded back a bit and recoated with polyurethane, looks better than the first time around. The idea to put a couple coats of poxy on first sure makes a difference later on. Thanks Mik.:2tsup:

Got the skipper to sand and finally paint the bow and side. He's actually quite chuffed because it was the first time he used the roller by himself, I gave him the job and off he went. Gotta say not a bad job indeed. His teacher must be pretty good:;:U

The idea is to now introduce more of the maintenance to him so that he can do more or even one day all of it and I supervise (with a cold one in hand of course :U)

Got to redo the position of the main block, and seeing I took the front cleats off (for the spinnaker pole) I'm replacing them with cam cleats as suggested. Whilst the others still work just fine, the opportunity was there so ...

Now all we have to do is get it to Geelong for Skandia week for 3 days of racing (easy) then keep it in good nick for the state titles in March.