DArk SIde Glue..........Yes there is such a thing! [Archive]

NewLou

20th March 2006, 11:03 PM

GIdday:D

Those of you that see me around a bit know that I love to do a bit of researching and share information with Forum Members. At the moment I'm developing a Dark Side attraction to animal Hide glues.

I'm really interested if there are any forum members out there who regularly use hot animal hide glues and could shed some light on this truely dark side topic???

As I dig deeper I'm finding more and more great information on Hot Hide Glues but have had little luck tracking down a supplier thats really in 'the know' about Hide Glues; preparation and their application!!!!

My interest comes from the great advantages of using a good hide glue:

It bonds to itself regardless of age negating the need for perfect clean ups to re apply glue

It can be re activated and deactivated to help with repairs and restorations

Once fully cured it does not creep

AND aparently if prepared and mixed correctly cures stronger than modern PVA type glues.

Master furnature restorers swear by the stuff ................. So why arn't we all using it???

Any further information comments observations really appreciated!!!!!!

REgards Lou:D:D:D

PaulS

20th March 2006, 11:09 PM

How about here for a start...

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hide.html

China

21st March 2006, 01:33 AM

The reason we don't all use is because basicly it is apain in teh ---- to use

Greg Q

21st March 2006, 07:43 AM

Hi New Lou-

I use hide glue when I am doing a project with enough batch gluing to warrant the bother. I like it for veneers too, but I don't yet have a vacuum press, relying on a veneer hammer instead.

For a glue pot you can use an old hot plate but it's important not to over temp the glue. Any spilled on the element will burn with the devil's own stench too.

I bought a new temperature controlled heater used to melt beautician's wax on eBay for $50.00-does a great job on hide glue.

Hide glue fits nicely into the dark side ethos, and I like it.

Once I get past my current (endless) shutter project I think I'll try it on a chest that I'm slowly making for my daughter.

Cheers
Greg

NewLou

21st March 2006, 10:00 AM

Gidday:)

Well heres some URL's to the cream of the crop of information I have been able to gather about Hot Hide Glue:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html
http://www.milligan1868.com/glue.html
http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199604/1996.04.21.05.html
http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5746044581/m/748100629
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/glue.htm
http://deller.com/newpage8.htm
http://www.woodworking.com/article_archive.cfm?section=6&article=610
http://www.bjorn.net/index.html

Theres some really informative reads here.....................When I finally start making some fine furnature I'll be definately using this type of glue!!! All comments observations really appreciated!!!

WHat do you think of the Piano Music :-p

REgards Lou:D:D:D

IanW

21st March 2006, 10:44 AM

I bought a new temperature controlled heater used to melt beautician's wax on eBay for $50.00-does a great job on hide glue.

Hide glue fits nicely into the dark side ethos, and I like it.
Greg

Hmmm, Greg - bit of a contradiction, here?! Or do dark-side ethics allow you to use 'high-tech' 'lectric bits as long as it's conscripted from some entirely different intent? :D

Just stirring - I use hide glue a lot, for at least three of the reasons Lou states above - reversibility, sticking to itself, and its non-creep properties. Have had a few nasty experiences with PVA glues, hot days and stressed joints. :(

And it's really much less of a PITA than you think, when you get used to it. Having some resonably-controlled means of heating is a must. It also helps to work to some sort of pattern so that glue-ups happen in batches (this often means lots of clamps, but you can never have too many clamps, can you?). By glueing in batches, I can warm up the glue 1/2 an hour ahead of time and use it quickly, rather than keeping it warm and evaporating all day. As the day goes on, you have to add a bit of water anyway, but it's not rocket-science. It's much more tolerant than some texts make out, as far as mix goes, just don't overheat it, as that really upsets proteins.

There are a lot of fine pieces of furniture still stuck together with hide glue after a couple of hundred years. There are also a lot that have come unstuck - at least partly through mis-use of the glue, but the good news is they are generally easy to repair!

I would NOT use irreversible glues like Araldite on fine cabinetry - well, perhaps for some joints like table tops that (you hope) should never fail or need re-working for any reason. If it survives a generation or two, it's almost certainly going to need a few running repairs. (If there is anyone left around in two generations time that can actually do the work ;) ), they will not be impressed by having to try to fix failed epoxy joints!

My 2c worth....
Cheers,

Greg Q

21st March 2006, 10:54 AM

Hmmm, Greg - bit of a contradiction, here?! Or do dark-side ethics allow you to use 'high-tech' 'lectric bits as long as it's conscripted from some entirely different intent? :D

,

:D
Yeah, that's it!*

I wish I had an forelock tugging apprentice or two, but have to make do with a few mod cons to get anything done. Plus, its hard to see this computer keyboard by candlelight;)

* I am in the mulling over stage of converting a record turntable into a sharpening system. One more item pressed into serving the darkness....

Clinton1

21st March 2006, 03:16 PM

Restorers swear by hide glue as it keeps them in work fixing failed hide glue bonds.

Personally I'd question the use of hide glue for anything other than veneers. For veneers, the ability to fail is outweighed by the ability to make it fail on demand and the fact that it bonds to itself. This argument is only required due to the fragile nature of veneers and the need to repair with as much of the veneer undisturbed as possible.

Other than that, it is a vastly inferior glue to many other modern products... i.e. PVAC

That said, it is of significance in maintaining authenticity in restored pieces, and in the making of exact replicias of old furniture.

There are many valid reasons that it lost popularity when good alternatives came onto the market.

There are also many good references in the bookshelves of most libraries, not hard to get your hands on some literature. the Ubeaut book covers it as well.

NewLou

21st March 2006, 03:41 PM

it is a vastly inferior glue to many other modern products... i.e. PVAC

Not sure why this kind of attitude seems to prevail in regards to contemporary/modern views of Hot Hide Glues.

Personally I'm in the opposite camp and think that quality hot hide glue is far superior to many modern products. I tend to believe that were all victums of great marketing and use of certain products for convienence sake ie: Modern glues?

Ever had to try and fix or sepatarate cured joins using modern PVA's....................Not much fun!

Proper use of Hide glues has resulted in Joinery lasting for hundreds of years!!!.................I'm not sure what the longest lasting modern PVA join has been recorded at????

In saying this i'm simply attempting to share my interest on this one with forum members....................and won't get on my soapbox to much until I have some experience using the stuff!!! heres an extract from a recent article I have been reading from FWW MAGAZINE:

Researchers at the <st1:city><st1>Franklin</st1></st1:city> glue company (the Titebond people<o></o>>
glued blocks, of hard maple together using different adhesives,<o></o>
then broke them apart using a machine to test the shear strength<o></o>
of the glue joint. Hide glue, they found, fails at about 3,600 lbs. per<o></o>
square inch (psi)—a respectable showing. By contrast, their<o></o>
newest (and more expensive) polyurethane glue let go at 3,500<o></o>
psi. And as far as durability is concerned, Egyptian furniture from<o></o>
2,700 B.C. was discovered with still-stuck hide-glue joints. "Protein-<o></o>
based glues, such as hide glue, are incredibly stable," says<o></o>
Dale Zimmerman, a Franklin scientist. "We have hundreds of years<o></o>
of history to back that up."<o></o>

Gets you thinking........................a quality Hot Hide Glue may well represent a forgotten pinnacle in strong versatile adhesives for airloom and fine furnature!!!!

REgards Lou:)

IanW

21st March 2006, 04:25 PM

Restorers swear by hide glue as it keeps them in work fixing failed hide glue bonds.

New Lou got in ahead of me, but I just can't let that one go by, Clinton, even though I strongly suspect you are just having a bit of a stir! :rolleyes:
I'd be challenging the basic knowledge of any 'restorers' espousing that philosophy. (And a bit alarmed at their ethics!)

For starters, most joints don't fail because of the glue, per se. Properly made and applied hide glue is far stronger than wood, as are most, if not all of the 'modern' glues. And I repeat, there are many grand pieces of furniture that have held up with hide glue (and good basic joinery) for far longer than anything glued with modern glues. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, the vast majority of pieces put together with synthetic glues more than 10 years ago are already 'history'. (This is more likely due to poor materials, construction and joinery than the glue, I'll admit).

We were taught woodworking with hide glue back in the 50's and I was very glad to give it up for nice, convenient, no-stink PVA glues when they hit the market. But there are no free lunches, with the convenience, you get, at no extra charge, thermoplasticity and glue creep, which is of considerable concern in our warm climate. I have never experienced sprung joints with hide glue the way I have with PVAs. Now that may be due to poor technique on my part, I'm willing to entertain, but I have been particularly careful these last 30 years or so, since I first encountered the writings of Mr. Frid and Co. There are a few woods, and Blackwood is one of them, that seem to do unpredictable things, no matter how diligently I dry, condition and arrange boards for large panel glue-ups. One of the reasons I gave up on PVA glues just about completely, is seeing one side of a Blackwood desk open up from top to bottom a few years after glueing with the LV/Garret Wade 202 that was touted as being less susceptible to creep. I swear all of the wood was out of the same pile, and had been acclimatising for several years before use.
Getting the top and bottom carcase dovetails apart to reglue it is a job I'm avoiding as long as possible, and it would have been so much easier if I'd switched back to hide glue a few years sooner!

Avagooday,

Wood Butcher

21st March 2006, 04:46 PM

Just a note on my experience with hide glue.

My dad's hobby is Pipe Organs and most of the old windchests are assembled with hide glue. A few years ago Dad and I were involved in rebuilding an organ for a church that had been moved into a private school for their chapel. Part of this is that we had to cut one of the old windchests in half to fit it in the new organ case (12ft off floor suspended off the wall no supports to the floor).
The hide glue seams on the inside of the windchest were perfect. Considering the the joints were basic lap joints pinned with wooden dowels and in this particular windchest there would be close to 400kg of pipes sitting on it, I think that is pretty good.
Also on the ability to dismantle the joints, we had to do that in a couple of instances. It took an hour flooding the joint with boiling water before we could safely pry the joint apart. In the middle of summer, not a very fun job.

I'll try to find some photos of the finished organ next time I go to see dad so you can see what the windchest look like.

Greg Q

21st March 2006, 05:04 PM

That Franklin test that New Lou cited used (I think) their pre-mixed bottled hide glue. It is inferior to traditional heated glue.

I like hide glue for another reason too-you can add things to change the bonding rate, which can help with a complex glue-up.

Someone's going to claim that the ancients had better animals to skin, hence their superior glue. Actually, since I thought of it, that's my new position.;)

Auld Bassoon

21st March 2006, 05:11 PM

Good post Lou,

I've used the Titebond liquid hide glue for veneers and such, but haven't yet ventured into the arcane (to me) world of hot hide glues.

When I was a school, the woodwork shop had a double boiler in one corner of the shop for the hide glue; nobody with any open nostrils would go near the blasted thing :) We all had a nasty suspicion that the bandsaw was put to, ahem!, "other uses" overnight to help maintain the glue supply....

NewLou

22nd March 2006, 10:10 AM

Gidday:)

Well its great to hear that theres a few Forum members round 'the traps' that are using Hot Hide Glue. It appears that there is a general belief that Hot Hide Glue is an inferior adhesive product and a major hassle to use paricularly by those who have had little experience with its use.

This I must admit is a belief that I held myself until recently developing an interest in Hot Hide Glues and their capabilities. If you are worried about hide glue joints being weaker than PVA,you can set your mind to rest. Testing shows that, under shear stress, the wood around the joint fails before the glue line.

This is true of both adhesives. PVA (White & Yellow Glue) and hide glue bonds are usually
described with the oft used phrase, “stronger than the wood itself”
which means that neither glue will create a weak point in a properly
executed joint.Remember if your glue is stronger than your wood, why worry
about how much stronger?.

Don’t be intimidated by those who say how hard it is to mix, or how
expensive the equipment is; Be creative. In the Hobby shop craftsmans
studio or small production shop perhaps there is a case for re examining
the use of quality hot hide glues.

For my own Woodworking adventure I have decided that examining and
testing its use is an absolute must!!

Indeed it appears that there are a number of major benefits & advantages
to having Hot Hide Glue in your adhesive arsenel. PArticularly when it comes
to crafting HEIRLOOM and fine furnature pieces.

HOT HIDE GLUE...........An almost forgotten gift from THE DARK SIDE;)

REgards Lou:D:D:D

<o></o>

Andy Mac

22nd March 2006, 10:36 AM

I haven't used the stuff personally, but have been in 'shops with disgusting gluggy gluepots laying about. All I could think of is how could you get neat clean work with a setup like that! Does dried excess come off OK?
I have used Casein glue, which is poisonous apparently (or so I was warned when I got the packet), but also a natural glue, coming from milk products. I don't touch dairy products anyway, so it seemed like a fair warning:rolleyes:. I was impressed with the stuff, did a great job.
New Lou, as much as we all detest nitpickers...its heirloom with a silent h, not airloom!!:p Good on you though for getting us thinking of alternatives.

Cheers,

IanW

22nd March 2006, 11:00 AM

If you are worried about hide glue joints being weaker than PVA,you can set your mind to rest. Testing shows that, under shear stress, the wood around the joint fails before the glue line.

This is true of both adhesives. PVA (White & Yellow Glue) and hide glue bonds are usually
described with the oft used phrase, “stronger than the wood itself”
which means that neither glue will create a weak point in a properly
executed joint.

Not to labour the point too much Lou, but you'll notice than when engineering types use this sort of language, they always add the rider "in a properly-made joint" or words to that effect. This is because you WILL get significant glue-failure under stress if the glue-line is too thick, particularly with brittle glues like hide glue. Epoxies are about the best at coping with thick glue-lines, according to what I've read, so if you are the sloppy-fit sort, reach for the Araldite and not the Pearl glue at glue-up time.
As many an article says, there are glues and glues, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses, so to speak, so most of us end up with several choices in the workshop. Although I'm a great fan of hot hide glue, I still use several other types according to what I'm doing, and what I expect of the glue. But high quality solid-wood stuff that I expect to last well beyond me (Hmm, that's not such a long time any more! :eek: ) is almost exclusively hide-glue territory, these days.
Avagooday,

NewLou

22nd March 2006, 11:11 AM

Excellent stuff IanW:)

I'm certainly agree with your comments ........................... more than anything else I'm certainly not going to suggest or champion that Hot Hide Glue is the only glue to use.

My agenda ........................ if I have one at all is to hopefully spark interest in the use of Hot Hide Glue and create a forum where our collective wisdom can be digested shared and hopefully practiced in real world conditions.

Your points are excellent ......................greenie on the way!!!!

REgards Lou:D:D:D

Andy Mac

22nd March 2006, 12:03 PM

I have been doing a bit of a search to find out more about Casein glue, mainly to ascertain if it could be considered a natural and Dark Side product:cool: , but also about the warning I got about toxicity. Haven't really found out either of them (Gawd, there's some garbage on the Web:mad: ), except that it is derived from milk protein, but modified with caustic additives. A US company make a range of products in powder and liquid form, some are two part mixes, it compares with hide glue although dries harder, and it has excellent water resistance...to the extent that it gets used on external doors. I think I will revisit it if anyone knows what/where to buy some?
There's a brief summary in this link: http://www.custompak.com/glueforum.htm

Cheers,

China

22nd March 2006, 09:10 PM

I agree properly used hide glues are strong any cabinet maker would have learned how to use them at trade school. Modern glues are just as good if not better and a lot more conveinient to use especialy in a commercial sense. In a hobbiest vane they might be fun, but still a pain in the ---

NewLou

3rd April 2006, 07:28 PM

Gidday:D

Um the misses has been giving me funny looks since I got this in the MAil. I wasen't sure what to think either. It was hard trying to work out the instructions:eek:

By the way does anyone know what a Brazilian is? ?:confused:

Anyway after getting my Head around the packaging I checked out the unit and she appears suprisingly solid. Perfect GluePot for some Hide Glue.

Now all I gotta do is find a supplier of quality Hide glue................. Any Suggestions???

Regards Lou;)

Greg Q

3rd April 2006, 08:34 PM

Hi New Lou...

Now all you need is a clip-on thermometer. EBAY search for milk thermometer will give you many items to choose from. It is important to calibrate the wax heater dial so that you don't overheat the glue that you buy from u-beaut.

Greg

martink

4th April 2006, 12:04 AM

Skew ChiDAMN!!

4th April 2006, 12:21 AM

By the way does anyone know what a Brazilian is? ?:confused:

Robert34

21st April 2006, 02:10 AM

NewLou

11th May 2006, 12:46 PM

Gidday :)

Heres some suppliers of Hide glue both here in Australia:p and Overseas. I’ve gone with Tools for working with wood as they appear to be in the know about different gram strengths and provide a number of different gram strengths of hide glue in their stock.
<o></o>
If anyone knows any Australian suppliers that stock Hide Glue in different Gram strengths it would be muchly appreciated.
<o></o>
I’ve ordered a number of items from tools for Working with wood in the past and they are up there with the best of the best in regards to range of products & customer service.
<o></o>
U Beaut<o></o>
http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm)<o></o>

<o></o>
The Woodworks Book & tool Co:<o></o>
http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/details.html?eqskudata=C0080&cart=32301914811165007 (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/details.html?eqskudata=C0080&cart=32301914811165007)
<o></o>
Tools for working with Wood<o></o>
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HIDEGL.XX&Category_Code

……………………Hope this Helps<o></o>
<o></o><o></o>

Regards Lou:D :D :D

rrich

11th May 2006, 01:55 PM

I don't use hide glue because I can hear the animals screaming as the glue cures. ;) ;) ;)

NewLou

1st November 2006, 05:13 PM

Gidday:D:D:D

Well I've been mucking around with Hide glue for a little while now and thought it was time to share the journey thus far. SO far I have been really happy with the results of all my Hide glue attempts which I might add are easily comparable to its modern day counterparts such as PVA's etc etc.

As I've mentioned there seems to be a lot of misinformation out there about quality Hide Glues. Its a hassle to brew it!......... it stinks......... n it dosent hold a join as well as the modern 'trend' glues contemporary woodworkers lap up without a second thought.

The advantages of Hide glue have been well documented previously in this thread n I highly recommend all to have a squiz to get an idea of what this Wonderful Glue has to offer.

I'm using a high quality 315 gram strength which is a special purpose glue for very high stress applications. Of the glues the 315 has the shortest open time. This stuff is great no stink gear that can be easily prepped in about 35minutes.

1. Firstly mix the Hide glue 1 part glue 1 part water
2. I brew mine in my gluepot n once shes in start mixing

NewLou

1st November 2006, 05:19 PM

3. Once shes mixed up the glue will look something like the consistancy you can see attached to the knife.
4. After you satisfied the 'brew' is throughly mixed together let the glue stand for half an hour.

I like the consistancy of a 1 to 1 part glue but you can experiment and talor the viscosity to your liking by adding another part of water to the 'mix' if desired.

5. I've experimented with my gluepot thats basically a ladies hot wax melter and have found that about 4.5 on the dial gives just about the right temperature. But I'll find an appropriate thermometer to check the exact temp in the not to distant future.

NewLou

1st November 2006, 05:51 PM

:)

AS you can see the process of melting the glue dosent take that long. Once shes ready you have a very strong woodworking glue thats fully reversable and repairable.

The importance of being able to create fully repairable joinery patticularly in fine woodworking applications can't be overstated.................PArticularly if your the one thats ended up having to do the repair.

In the future I plan to incorporate into my Makers MArk:

"Hide glue Joinery"..................................................N theres Ya Apples

Hope to see my Dark side brothers n sisters get into this almost forgotten n suprisingly easy Dark side Art!!!

Regards Lou:D:D;)

martink

2nd November 2006, 02:06 PM

Gidday:D:D:D

I'm using a high quality 315 gram strength which is a special purpose glue for very high stress applications. Of the glues the 315 has the shortest open time. This stuff is great no stink gear that can be easily prepped in about 35minutes.

Lou,

What sort of open time are we looking at whith this stuff? BTW, Great info, am finding your experince a benefit before I journey down that path.

Ciao,

M.

bucket1

4th November 2006, 09:49 PM

I use hide glue a lot but must admit it is mostly for sticking leather to wood. For this it is way easier to work with than PVA. I make my own gluepots out of a large coffee tin. Cut a hole in the lid and solder in a 400gm tin. Dont forget to punch some breather holes around lid. The one with the tear tops are best as you get a wiping edge that your brush doesnt get stuck on. Also need to use a tin that does not have a painted inside (whiskas cat food are good). I then paint all surfaces except inside smaller tin with epoxy enamel. Makes a very cheap and effective double boiler. I use a gas stove to heat pot. Once water is boiled, glue stays warm enough for up to an hour and pot is of course cordless. The glue I use comes in a gel form and is ready to use. Just have to heat and dilute. No premixing or soaking needed.

bent wood

9th November 2006, 11:23 PM

HI new lou. you sure bought back some memories when i left school in London in the early 40s i joined a company building organs only pipes in those day, they went in to Cathedral and churches we only used hide glue in those days even to glue up the bellows, some of the ones in the cathedrals have 200 pipes and are 3 stories high so there is a lot of weight and stress even those needing repair all the glue joint intact, one thing make sure the temperature is correct. and you're joints could still be around in 100 years,
Go for it if you have got the hide.
Edward.

NewLou

15th November 2006, 07:49 AM

Gidday:)

Across my recent travels round the Net reading and such I came across some interesting information.

Hide glue can be used to bond metals such as Brass and Aluminum with the addition of a tea spoon of VeniceTurpentine per pint of glue , or plaster of paris.

Suprisingly rubbing the metal with fresh garlic also enables hide glue to bond metals:eek:

The method usually adopted by old craftsmen for inlaying ivory, silver etc was to hide glue the ground or substrate, dry grind the inlay without touching the critical surfaces with the fingers and immediately place in position.

Alternatively the metal inlays were rubbed with fresh garlic, and while it was never actually known why the garlic acted in this manner, it is possible that the garlic oil cleaned the surface and was it self so finely dispursed that it created no fresh obsticle.

Dark side Glue indeed:eek:

REgards Lou:D:D:D