Domino Jointer

[martini]

Has anyone bought or used the new Domino jointer? If so, any feedback would be appreciated.

Martin.

[underused]

I wanted to buy one, but couldnt find it here in Japan:o I settled for a lamello, and saved some money;)
Cheers. Gary.

[doug the slug]

Hi Martini,
I was given a full demo of the Domino system yesterday. I went to our local building supplies place to order some concrete colour for work, but they know i do concrete for a living and woodwork for fun, so they thought it might be worth their while showing it to me.

Basically all it is is a loose tennon system, with the loose tennons being made out of the same materials used for biscuit joints and a bit smaller in most cases. the machine, which resembles a biscuit joiner, uses a sort of a drill bit to make the mortices, probably cross between a drill bit and a spiral upcut router bit. the bit oscillates from side to side to accommodate one of the 3 standard size "dominos".

It seems ok if you are going to do a lot of stuff that it suits, but i cant justify $1200 for it personally. it is quick,strong and versatile if you have enough work that suits it tho. Theres a demo dvd you can get from festool dealers free

[TassieKiwi]

I've handled one, and would've bought it without hesitation - I set my mental limit at $600. It appears to be superbly thought out and put together, but for the home workshop that already has everything.......if money is really no object its OK, but I think overpriced to buggery. It will not do larger M&T's either -max depth 25mm. A small joinery shop maybe could justfy it, but I would think that they'd be already set up with something else for M&T's. I don't think that they'll be a big seller.

My $1200 is reserved for a 10"TS.

[Mirboo]

I don't think that they'll be a big seller.

One of the blokes at Carba-Tec Sydney gave me a demonstration of the Domino a few weeks ago. He told me that Festool had forecast sales of 11000 units worldwide for the first 12 months after release but instead sold 11000 units in the first month after release.

Regards,
Mirboo.

[TassieKiwi]

One of the blokes at Carba-Tec Sydney gave me a demonstration of the Domino a few weeks ago. He told me that Festool had forecast sales of 11000 units worldwide for the first 12 months after release but instead sold 11000 units in the first month after release.

Regards,
Mirboo.

Carbatec vs accurate information....caveat emptor.

[Wongo]

I also saw it at XXXXX-XXX 2 weeks ago. It is a great and accurate machine and the machine itself costs around $10?0. It is out of my reach though.:(

[Mirboo]

Carbatec vs accurate information....caveat emptor.

I didn't say I believed him. Just telling you what he said. You'd would expect a huge backlog of orders if it was true. Production forecasts would be so out of whack, you'd wonder how they could possibly ramp up from forecast production of 11000 units per year to actual production of 11000 units per month.

Regards,
Mirboo.

[Ratbag]

Who was it who frst coined the idiom "a fool and his money are easily parted"? I'm not levelling any criticism at any particular individual here: except perhaps myself. I'm continually astonished at how much we mugs in Oz are prepared to pay for power tools. Companies are able to milk us for a price premium of about 50% over what the North American market is asked to pay. Check out JapanWoodworkerdotcom and others if you'd like a rude shock. By paying up we allow these companies to charge us obscene prices for what is, after all, just a well designed tool. Maybe it's time for a consumer boycott?

[Greg Q]

I generally agree with you, Ratbag. In Festool's case, America currently enjoys the lowest prices in the world. We pay a similar price to the Europeans for Festool (despite their higher wages).

11,000 domino machines in a month is pretty hard to imagine given it is still months away from release in North America.

If I used Festool machines in a business I couldn't afford the foolishness of getting vac bags etc from overseas, which is what I do now as a hobbyist.

I am still getting over the implications of Festool's price fixing, which is illegal in this country.

Greg

[Ratbag]

Sorry to belabour the point, but I've just seen something that beggars belief. In the latest F'tool flier they're selling a mini-systainer choc-a-block full!?? of a whole 50 (yes, that's right: Fifty!!) assorted jigsaw blades for a mere $249. Yes, you read it right...almost $5 per blade. Just below it I also see a set of 5 brad-point wood drills that I bought some 5 years ago as a F'tool branded set for $20 now rebranded as "Prowood-Zobo" for a mere $82.50.

I personally resent being treated as a fool. I don't think Festool will have a gerat future in this marketplace if they continue to insult our intelligence in this way.

[Greg Q]

The thing about the domino is that for making (shallow) mortises on a job site they probably can't be beaten, if such a thing is called for. I see that Festool has an introductory price of $300 ish on a systainer with 1200 loose tenons. I think that the stock is compressed beech, like a traditional biscuit. Discounting the cost of the systainer, the price per tenon is north of $0.25, plus ownership costs.

I wonder if for a hobbyist the beadlock system might be a reasonable alternative, especially since they offer router bits now to mill your own tenon stock. I haven't heard if there are any issues (apart from drilling straight into end grain)

I have a mortising unit on my combi machine, and, using end mills, it performs all of my loose tenon work very well. If I didn't I would consider:


1. Leigh M & T jig
2. Wood Rat (I'm not sure which would be first pick)
3. Domino
4. Router jig using endmills or upcuts
5. One of those dedicated hollow chisel things
6. Beadlock
7. Drill press attachment

[Greg Q]

Sorry to belabour the point, but I've just seen something that beggars belief. In the latest F'tool flier they're selling a mini-systainer choc-a-block full!?? of a whole 50 (yes, that's right: Fifty!!) assorted jigsaw blades for a mere $249. Yes, you read it right...almost $5 per blade. Just below it I also see a set of 5 brad-point wood drills that I bought some 5 years ago as a F'tool branded set for $20 now re branded as "Prowood-Zobo" for a mere $82.50.

I personally resent being treated as a fool. I don't think Festool will have a gerat future in this marketplace if they continue to insult our intelligence in this way.

How's this? A few months ago Festool sold off all of their branded stock of these (admittedly high quality) bits on eBay for < $20.00. Now they are restocked at $82.00? Incredible.

[TassieKiwi]

The ex-carbatec bloke in Melbourne said that he's not scared to discount Festool:

Woodworking Warehouse. 512 Mountain Hwy (opposite Stud Rd intersection)
BAYSWATER: , BRAESIDE (03) 9720-8155

Ask fo Paul. Great JET prices too :)

[Greg Q]

Excellent, thanks for the tip.

Here's another stupid retailer story:

I was shopping for a CT-22 Vac, a not inexpensive little foray at the (unnamed) tool shop. I canvassed the bloke about a discount, he said that Festool's price policy prevented him from discounting or charging more. he then went on to say that since I was a hobbyist, he should be charging me more!

I walked past him into the back office, relayed that to the manager. I got $100.00 off on the spot, and an apology.

Greg

[Auld Bassoon]

The ex-carbatec bloke in Melbourne said that he's not scared to discount Festool:

Woodworking Warehouse. 512 Mountain Hwy (opposite Stud Rd intersection)
BAYSWATER: , BRAESIDE (03) 9720-8155

Ask fo Paul. Great JET prices too :)

Er Tassie, I think that WW Warehouse are in Braeside, but in Citrus St; the 512 Mountain Hwy address corresponds, from memory, to the old Carba-Tac location.

[nt900]

Hello everyone,

I feel compelled to contribute to this thread as I believe there is some incorrect information in some of the previous replies. I do this for selfish reasons as a Festool dealer, and to be honest I am a bit sick of all the Festool bashing that goes on in this forum. I believe the purpose of these forums is to swap information and assist each other with knowledge and advice. And I thought on a brand/tool specific forum there would be more contributions about the experiences and application of such tools. And I think this is what martini was looking for. It started off well, then got a bit off topic.


What the other dealer may have reported regarding Festool having sold out a years supply of Dominos within Europe in the first month of release is essentially correct. I do not think the number of units was 11,000, but it is in the thousands. My understanding is Festool manufacture a large quantity of units prior to a launch, and the stock targeted for supply around the world was diverted to European sales. They have since been in catch-up mode to bring stock levels back up.

The Domino system may at first appear to be similar to a biscuit system, but is quite different. I relate it to a loose-tennoning system, as did someone else in this thread. The 'tennons' so to speak (dominos) come in five sizes: 5x19x30, 6x20x40, 8x22x40, 8x22x50, and 10x24x50mm. And of course multiple can be placed in a joint. Usefully you can place different size domino into same joint, say for a mitre joint to give maximum strength by using one longer and one shorter domino. As pointed out earlier in this thread, these are effectively 'short tennons'. Longer and deeper penetrating than biscuits, and more substantial, but not as long a tennon as you may produce using more conventional means. The dominos are not pressed like biscuits which are designed to swell in their slot. They are a solid machined piece of timber. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall the timber type, but it was pointed out to me at a dealer presentation that it is a different timber to biscuits. I can find out exactly what it is if anyone is interested. Also, the Domino machine can place the dominos equal distance into both pieces of the joint, or deeper into one side and less into the other depending on the joint requirements.

The Domino machine at first glance may look like a biscuiting machine but is rather more complex than that. Quite a bit of engineering is evident in the gear system to enable it to spin a cutter at 24,300 rpm whilst rapidly oscillating it left/right, also to enable the use of different size dominos. Although you do not need to specify the different width of the hole required to cater for the different size dominos (you just change cutters), one feature is the ability to increase the width of the hole from tight, loose, looser (my terminology) to aide alignment of the pieces. Joint strength remains essentially the same. It also has placement pins and an attachment to help you space the dominos out across the joint. Ideal for panel construction. You typically don't need to pencil mark up the work in order to place domino holes along the edges. At worst you only need to make one mark, and the rest are placed equal distance (user selectable) from the previous hole using the attached stop.

The Domino Assortment Systainer also discussed in thread retails at $330. This kit includes a Systainer, four domino cutters and 1,105 dominos. As a Systainer 2 retails for $96.91, and the four cutters $206.80, you could suggest the 1,105 dominos are essentially only $16.29. That would equate to about 1.4 cents a domino. To refill the Domino Assortment Systainer with more dominos by buying replenishment boxes works out to between $0.06 to $0.24 a piece depending on the size of domino you are using.

The domino machine in a Systainer retails at $1,226. To many this seems expensive, and people's opinions are of course determined by their personal situations, requirements and view on the suitability of the tool in question. But, referring back to my earlier comment on Festool bashing, Festool consistently produce very high quality and innovative product, and this R&D, materials, tool and system quality, comes at a price greater than that of average tools or poorly executed copies. But would you expect, innovation, quality, longevity, dealer training and experience, excellent warranty and service support, all to come with no discernable cost difference over other tools?

I am not sure if the direction this thread was taking is assisting martini get the answer he was looking for. I use the Domino system (currently using it to finish off an overdue kitchen project of mine) and think it is fantastic. But I would love to hear from a non-biased person or two who have purchased and used it and can give some feedback (see how they think of it after putting it to some use. I might canvass some of my Domino customers and see how they are going with the new System).


Now if anyone would like to get more information on the Domino, you can visit our store (Domino section) at:
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3919_1.htm
Maybe this will help explain some aspects of the system.

Or ask for a Domino information pack at:
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3799_1.htm
A pack will be posted out to you and includes an interactive DVD-ROM with lots of info and video, brochure, and a set of dominos, one of each size for you to look at.

Or ask me some questions about it. I am hardly an expert user of the Domino System just yet, and am simply an amateur woodworker, but I am happy to shed some light where I can. Yet again, I will endeavour to get some feedback from customers over the next little while.


A couple of other points....

The Mini-Systainer of blades also mentioned in this thread may not be accurately reviewed either. This set which retails for $249 comes with 30 jigsaw blades for cutting wood up to 85mm, 20 sabre saw blades, three sets of ear plugs, a pair of UVEX coated protection glasses, in a Mini-Systainer. Doing the numbers on that works out at $22.44 for the Mini-Systainer, UVEX glasses at approximately $46.00 (I got this figure of a safety equipment site), ear plugs say $1, the blades cost around $180. That works out at approximately $3.59 a blade (both jigsaw and sabre). Have you priced sabre saw blades lately, a set of three Bosch blades costs $21.00 So at say $120 for the sabre saw blades and $60 for the jigsaw blades, that work our at $6 per sabre saw blade and $2 per jigsaw blade.

The spiral bits mentioned at $82.50 currently being offered by Protool are by my recall a different design than those offered by Festool on eBay a few months back. The bits offered on eBay were being superseded by the current Protool (Prowood-ZOBO) set. I think they sold for around $20 on eBay at the time and were a good buy for those who picked them up.


Sorry to go on a bit, but I feel I needed to clarify a few points. Cheers.


Attached are a couple of images of the Domino in use to put an edging on a kitchen bench-top. I did go quite a bit over the top with the number of dominos and their close spacing...... you would not need that many, but I was experimenting (read 'enjoying myself').

[TassieKiwi]

Thanks for the information. I don't think that anyone disagrees on your points. We probably all want one, but it is simply perpercieved as being too bloody expensive, is all. Perception is reality.

[Iain]

Festool is aimed at pro's and amateurs who are willing to pay.
Price wise I think it is in the same league as the top end Lamello biscuit jointer.
Anyone who knows and uses Festool can only vouch for them, they are a bit like Mr U Beaut polishes, they have a gimmick, they work.
I went out a few years ago to buy a Metabo sander and came home with a Rotex 150, a purchase that I still do not regret.
The address on a previous post too in Bayswater is Gustec, Carbatecs old location.
Paul is a top bloke and a pleasure to deal with (even if he does seem a bit vague at times:p )

[NewLou]

Gidday:)

Nowadays I truely try to avoid being involved in these kind a threads BUT feel strongly about this one and have been taken Hook Line and Sinker.

Before I start this is my opionion I own it But really am a bit Miffed at NT900's assertion that this Forum essentially Bash's Festool Products!!!

I need to state right here and now That I love Festool products and one day dream of owning some..................There is no doubt that Festool make excellent gear that any knowledgable Woodie or Craftsman would be happy to have Festool gear in their tool arsenel.

For me the general flavour of the Aussie woodwork forums take on Festool gear is that Its great stuff most of us would love to own BUT as stated is too expensive for the majority of Forum members.

This is simply a reflection of the general economic status of most forum members not having a spare grand to throw around to buy a 12 volt drill driver.............Domino system or sawguide

Please don't suggest that we are continually bagging Festool do a search and I'm sure you'll find that there's pleantly of balance.................most importantly most of the comments at very least FAIR!

I'm sure you'll agree that a FORUM that has a dedicated section for FEstooL products is with you rather than against you!!

REgards Lou

[martini]

Thank you NT900, for your comprehensive reply. I can see the benfits of the machine from the information presented on the festool site but wanted a user's view. As you do use one, I wanted to know if you push it in like a buscuit joiner or whether it goes through its cycle automatically and cuts to the depth set on its dial? Also, as the cutter oscillates from side to side, is there any difficulty maintaining lateral position as it is held against the workpiece?

Martin.

[Groggy]

But would you expect, innovation, quality, longevity, dealer training and experience, excellent warranty and service support, all to come with no discernable cost difference over other tools? I know this is cheeky, but "ever heard of Lee Valley tools?".

Otherwise, thanks for an excellent response. Most of us are challenged when it comes to affording the Festool range, but, when the opportunity presents itself, most of us are all over them like a chubby kid on a cupcake.

I was lucky enough to get a drill off ebay and find the other drills now sit in a cupboard. "Cry once" certainly applies to Festool, great product!

[nt900]

Hi there Lou - that makes two of us who prefer to not get drawn in, yet we did. Yes, some feedback is very positive, which is great. I won't knock that. And people should be able to support a product or state that they think they are expensive without undue pressure from others. I may be showing my sensitivities in this thread as I have been watching this forum for a few years and it seems to just skirt around the edges. Very rarely do we go in depth about a particular Festool product. I would love to see some in depth discussion about the OF1400 router and how both amateurs and professionals are finding it in use. Or some mini-review by owners which others can bounce questions off of.

Groggy - I love most of what Lee Valley has to offer. Have some of those items in my own workshop., I particularly like Veritas hand planes although I am not a big user.

Anyway, I have also gone off topic. Maybe I will start a few threads of my own to see if we can get a couple of Festool users to offer some more and in depth commentary.

As for the need I felt to reply to this thread, was really to correct what I thought were some inaccuracies. But back on topic. tow there has to be a Domino power user out there who can share their experiences with us.

Martinis - The question I can answer of martinis is "yes, you do need to plunge the machine in a similar way you plunge a biscuit machine". And, maintaining lateral position and accuracy is no issue for me. I find there is very little lateral kickback. Especially when plunging the machine vertically, I find I need to maintain little pressure on the machine to keep it under control. The one thing I am getting use to is placing dominos in mitre joints. But I think I have got the method sorted now. I probably should review the DVD-ROM a few more time and more closely observe the examples.

[Groggy]

I'd like to make a couple of observations:

People don't get wound up over junk products (usually). The fact that people care enough to post fore and agin is a good sign.
I thank NT900 and others who defend and educate us about their products on the board - we usually learn something.
Telling us we are 'biased' or 'bashing' a product is a good thing, if that is what is happening, as we can develop a group mentality at times; sometimes without realising it.
We should be gracious to 'those in the know' who drop by with information for us - I think we generally are in this regard.Personally, I like these threads. There are a number of questions I have had on the Domino that were cleared up here - especially the cost of the consumables. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt Festool to be more clear on that point.

[Bodgy]

Anthony

I don't think anyone bags Festool products. They have a great reputation and many happy users.

What, I think, we do bag are:

a. Festools Pricing in Australia.
b. Their apparent blatent disregard for Australian law regarding Retail Price Maintenance.

Whilst I know Festool tools are excellent, I can't quite see that they are more than twice as good as the Makita, Bosch, De Walt etc. equivalent, yet they come at over twice the cost. Still thats the way Festool run their Australian business which is their perogative. Punters can buy or not buy - which is our perogative.

The second issue I raise is more disturbing. Deriving income from a country yet, apparently, not complying with that country's laws is a serious matter.

Anthony - I look forward to your comments on this. Are you forbidden to discount? What penalties are prescribed for so doing? Is this part of your written contract or merely verbally delivered?

[Greg Q]

I am a Festool owner who cheerfully bashes Festool where warranted. Like already mentioned, this is largely confined to Australian prices and price policies as related to me personally by three festool dealers.

So, Anthony, some questions for you:
The consumables price mentions the cutters being sold with the dominos. How many domino joints can be cut before cutter replacement is required?

What improvements can be made to already excellent drill bits to warrant an $82.50 price tag?

The Festool forum on Yahoo has become cult-like, and criticism of the tools or the company gets howled down. I hope this one doesn't go the same way. I'm not offering criticism of the tools, just the company's apparent difficulties with those pesky Australian trading laws in place to protect me, the consumer.

Cheers,

Greg

[martini]

I have just ordered the DVD from the idealtools site (thanks for the link Anthony) and look forward to seeing the Domino in action. Is it possible to get a live demo?

On a related theme, I have other festool products including the QF1400 router which I bought recently with the LR32 hole guide system as I had to drill about 2500 shelf holes! I have used other routers in the past and have to say that this router is a cut above the others. I also had to cut a large number of rebates as part of making these shelves. Setup and performance as well as smoothness of operation and dust collection are all excellent. Whether it is worth the price premium over other tools is an individual decision. It was worth it for me.

Martin.

[nt900]

For Bodgy and probably a few more out there who will be interested in an answer to his question.

Although I could avoid answering this question, take offence at being asked it in a public forum, take his question as a serious accusation and call my lawyer, or could suggest to you all that my business arrangements are none of yours or anyone else's business, I will answer it directly as it is a simple enough answer. But I do so on the basis that I do not want to drawn into further discussion on the topic as it rather upsets me, for reasons that should become clear by the end of this email. And I think my following statement is clear enough.

"My dealership is not involved in price fixing, nor is it encouraged to by any of our suppliers or other retailers." This applies to all the brands and products we sell.

The slightly longer answer - The prices Ideal Tools chooses to charge for any of the brands we sell are based on the what it costs us to run a business and make a necessary profit.

Our business model is pretty simple:

Support Australian woodworkers obtain some of the best tools around to enable them to be effective at their work, and for customer and ourselves mutually appreciate the transaction and experience.

This does not just mean sell high quality or expensive machines for maximum profit. It also means:

Prompt, polite, fast service,
7 days a week operation and customer contact, late in the day phone and email for customers in WA,
Pre and post purchase information and support,
Rapid and free delivery to anywhere in Australia in nearly all cases. Perfect condition upon arrival.
As many people in business could tell you, this comes at quite a personal and financial cost. Our prices are based on these factors and the usual costs of running a business. Yet again, this applies to all the products and brands we sell.

[nt900]

Firstly, thanks to everyone in this thread for continuing rational discussion after my initial post. I was hesitant to reply as previously stated but this thread has drawn out some good discussion. Someone mentioned the Yahoo Groups Festool Forum. About people getting talked down/over if they criticise Festool. It is a good point. They have 'matured' to the point to now criticise this criticism in their own forum, which is good. I think the moderator has a pretty good philosophy on the forum, nothing should not be talked about, and nothing should be censored. But I believe he is willing to ban people who are get that passionate about it (either side of the debate) and become abusive. It think it is a very good forum with a generally positive attitude.


To answer some of Greg's questions - Or not quite answer as the case may be. I have not yet put any one cutter through that many domino to notice it begin to show sighs of wear. You may notice in the photo I attached, in the background I have some cleaning and lube products I am trying. With the Jarrah I have been using the domino cutters on I am getting pitch build up. Probably as much as I would get on a conventional router bit. I am trying to look after these bits better than I usually do. Time for me to break some bad habits. When I get some signs of wear or poor performance I will let the forum know. I have not yet investigated if there is a suitable resharpening process for these bits. I need to do that.

Regarding the Prowood drill bits, that is a good question which I cannot answer with direct product knowledge. I have not had the opportunity to try either the new or old sets. I am still using a set of Festool brad-point Novadrive bits which are about three or more years old. I have not had to sharpen them in that period and still get great results from them. Keep in mind this is not in a professional situation. But they are my main wood drills for when I need quality results. So no real answer to your question there. But I can say the Prowood hole saws (like a Forstner bit) are in my opinion fantastic! But I have not been able to afford to buy myself a set of these as yet. Like many of you, I will need to wait and save up for them.

[nt900]

Martin - As you are in Melbourne a Demo is easy. Give me a call on 1300 769 258 and I can bring a Domino around. If you would like and are not too busy, I can leave it with you for a few days and you can report back to the forum your experience with it.

[Greg Q]

Anthony-I want to make this public because I fear that some of my earlier comments struck the wrong tone.

I want to say that you have been very forthcoming with tips and advice on this and the other forum. I haven't lately been in the Ideal Tools end of town, but will call in when next I am.

I don't know what to think/say about the price maintenance allegations. You hear something from three independant sources and it starts to feel like verification. By the way, where are you guys hiding those WMD's?:confused: ;)

I have been in a couple of full-service Festool dealers recently and was inpressed by the depth of product knowledge, huge range and advice. This an important part of buying expensive tools, and lacking in those places where I ask for a discount.

I related my sad tale about trying to buy a CT-22: what I didn't mention is that it took this salesman 25 minutes to find the (wrong) answers to my (few)questions. This kind of shop can only exist by selling cheaper than the full-service shop. So, they get asked for a price break. In places like these I figure that if my first offer doesn't embarrass me, then I paid too much.*

*not that I shop there anymore, nor places like it.

Kind regards,

Greg

[Bodgy]

Anthony

I am also in business and well know the issues involved in turning a decent quid.

Far from begrudging you a profit, I say 'good on you'. It gets harder every year.

My question does not really relate to your business, it relates to a more general issue.

No accusations, just questions.

[nt900]

Looks like we are all beginning to understand each others viewpoints a bit better. And without anyone getting off-side or impolite. I hope I have as been open and polite in my replies as you guys have.

Unfortunately Ideal Tools is an internet based business so we don't have an end of town to drow around to. Which is a shame really. But how else would we keep our WMD's secret? But I am sure there are other very good Festool dealers where the Domino is available to try out, as has been reported.

If people would not mind, I would like to start a new thread more specifically around the Domino. This one has become a bit cluttered with different topics. If Martin does not want to spend a bit of time with a borrowed machine and give it a bit of a review, I am happy to send it to someone else who can provide some feedback to the new thread.

[Greg Q]

What made me think that you had a physical presence in Altona then?

If you are an internet only business then I guess that I am in your end of town daily.

Greg

[Lignum]

Anthony id be more than happy to give it a whirl and provide some feedback as i have 160 - 30deg rail/legs to join :)

[nt900]

We are based in that area, but our shop front is "in everybody's business and home." :D Do you like that? A bit corny I guess!


Lignum - Martin has it for a few days. I am dropping it over to his place today. I need it back for the weekend to put some built-in robes together, then it might be available to try. Shoot me an email at [email protected] ([email protected]) and let me know the suburb you are located. I can probably bring it around and run you through it, then have a few days with it. Yet again, on the basis you share you experience with the group.

[Lignum]

Anthony thanx anyway but ill give it a miss. I just thought Martin wasnt interested when you said for someone else to have ago, as im joining all the leg/rails together early in the comming week, so i think ill stick with my trusty plate jointer:)

[Groggy]

If Martin does not want to spend a bit of time with a borrowed machine and give it a bit of a review, I am happy to send it to someone else who can provide some feedback to the new thread.I'd love to play with it, and live close by in Hoppers, but unfortunately getting the time and a decent job to try it on is where I'd have bother. I'll be keen to read another's review - I guess :(

[underused]

I'd be happy to give it a workout and a fair review:)
Could you drop it off to me? Japan too far?:D...:o
Cheers. Gary.

[Gaza]

You can bash festool all you like for being over priced and controlling the pricing but at the end of the day there tools are at a different level to the rest of the market, each tool is designed for a need.

I own a number of festool tools and think that the domino is great but i dont have a need for it so i will not be buying one unless i get a need.

Take a simple circular saw, GMC $40.00 Festool over $600 bucks you ask your self why, well for starters the festoo comes with a cool carry case (so what who needs that you say) comes with a handy straight edge (i can use a clamp & 4x2 same thing) multiple speed soft start motor with a built in overload / overheat function now this stuff is WOW...

I own a Festool circular saw, GMC and Dewalt, i use the festool for sheet products and for onsite were i dont have a table saw, i use the dewalt for framing and the GMC well thats left at home just in case i need to cut something.

What i am trying to say is dont knock it unless you own it......... or have used it...

I to thought there stuff was over priced until i brought the saw then i realized the difference since then i have brought a 2nd saw, 3 ROS, Router, storage cases for screws but never a vac as FEin are just as good and cheaper.

[Lignum]

I to thought there stuff was over priced until i brought the saw then i realized the difference since then i have brought a 2nd saw, 3 ROS, Router, storage cases for screws but never a vac as FEin are just as good and cheaper.

I dont think anyone is or has bashed Festo, but it IS over priced. They can make all the excuses they like about quality, customer service etc, but the bottom line is the products arnt twice as good as their nearest rivals yet their pricing is. The ROS is great but no better than the Metabo which is far cheaper and the FEIN ROS is measurably better. And the OF2000 which i have used, apart from the great precision fence dosnt come close to my fifteen year old ELU MOF when its in the hand being used, and the smaller 1010 is the most over priced power tool on the market. I have found it very clumsy to use, its the only Festo product iv used that i didnt like. The dust extractors sux just as good as the Metabo and Makita yet they are almost half the price. Dont get me wrong, Festo is top quality gear worthy of any workshop, but i just wish they were at a relistic price, then they would feature in my workshop.

[Greg Q]

...And as I mentioned, I am a dedicated Festool owner (of several tools). I am discerning enough to ascertain the difference between crap and not, hence my purchase choices. I don't however subscribe to the notion that Festool is the only or automatic choice in any particular category, nor that they necessarily represent the best value.

The price thing I shall leave alone.

[Lignum]

... But, the Domino looks like the one i just might take the plunge with and purchase, or maybe wait six months for the GMC clone for an 85% discount:rolleyes:

[Greg Q]

LOL...A GMC version would be a real gem, wouldn't it?:eek:

[boban]

I dont think the Chinese will take that long to pull one apart and copy it.

I have a Festo vac and wanted to buy some bags. $280 for 20 bags. It's a vacuum for Pete's sake. Then I went online to the good old USA and ordered online for less than $140 delivered. Then I received an email (self generated I assume) which gave me a toll free number to call so that I could place future orders by phone as their internet store prices are not the best that they can do.

The vac is great, but dont tell me Festool (not the dealers) are not making a killing on the accessories. It must be the R&D I'm paying for with these special paper bags that they send to us here in Australia.

[nt900]

Hi Gary - happy to bring a DOMINO to Japan. Please email me your address in Japan then please put the pre-paid airline tickets into the mail. Thanks. Also let me know which hotels you are putting me up in. I also want to visit Kitchen stadium whilst I am there. Thanks again.

[Wongo]

I dont think the Chinese will take that long to pull one apart and copy it.

and why the hell would I want to pull it apart? Well I couldn’t afford one in the first place.:D

[Lignum]

I have a Festo vac and wanted to buy some bags. $280 for 20 bags. It's a vacuum for Pete's sake. Then I went online to the good old USA and ordered online for less than $140 delivered..

Ive worked in workshops that glue up the holes with cardboard in the old bags because they dont want to pay the outragous prices for new ones

[Greg Q]

Before using them, try opening the seam at the bottom, then taping it closed. You then can empty and re-tape closed several times before discarding. For some reason the tape won't stick to the bag if it has been used first-I guess the dust impregnates the paper and screws up the bond.

They also have a re-useable bag for some crazy price. I am going to try to suction my regular bag out with the big dust extractor next time its full. Either that or make a small inline cyclone, which I don't really want to do.

It pisses me off somewhat that I can get bags from Germany via America for half the money than from Germany direct. Same for sandpaper. Since the American prices can't be called introductory anymore, I guess Festool wants me to subsidise the North American customer by paying stupid prices here?:confused: :(

...and here I wasn't going to mention the price thing anymore.

[boban]

Ive worked in workshops that glue up the holes with cardboard in the old bags because they dont want to pay the outragous prices for new ones

That's exactly what I've done with my last bag until the new lot arrive.

We once used to pay ridiculous prices for Lie Nielsen gear as well. I'll bet Al's leftie again (he seems to have a lot of them) that if the US wasn't 110V, the tool prices would also be a little more competitive.

I dont mind paying for quality, but there is a limit to everything I think. Despite what I've read in this thread, I've yet to be convinced there is any justification for the pricing.

It's almost as if Festool are the only ones who do R&D. I remember buying my first impact driver, a 9.6v Makita (1996 I think). It is still as good as the day I bought it. Nowadays nearly everyone makes them but my point is, do they really think that companies like Makita, Hitachi, Metabo, Bosch, Dewalt and the others dont spend millions on R&D, promotion, training etc. Products like this impact driver are demonstrative of "other quality brands" having similar costs to Festool.

How can Festool dealers afford to come to your place of business or home and demonstrate the tool? This was the offer I received when looking for a ROS and I was only going to buy one. Or a demo trial. That cost has to come from somewhere. You can guess from where.

[Lignum]

Greg, thats what we have always done and its good you bought it to attention. The bags get emptied so many times they get fragile and split, thats when the cardboard and glue comes in handy;)

[Lignum]

It's almost as if Festool are the only ones who do R&D. I remember buying my first impact driver, a 9.6v Makita (1996 I think). It is still as good as the day I bought it. Nowadays nearly everyone makes them but my point is, do they really think that companies like Makita, Hitachi, Metabo, Bosch, Dewalt and the others dont spend millions on R&D, promotion, training etc. Products like this impact driver are demonstrative of "other quality brands" having similar costs to Festool.


Your so right, and its Panasonic that leads the way with cordless technology in conjunction with NASA. They are the ultimate cordless and a few hundred less than the other one

[boban]

Your so right, and its Panasonic that leads the way with cordless technology in conjunction with NASA. They are the ultimate cordless and a few hundred less than the other one

The Panasonic cells are where they have the advantage. Nearly every sparky I know has one, and for good reason according to the reviews. If I were buying a new cordless, they probably would be at the top the list. Here's a 12V review for those interested http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/12vdrills.0203.pdf

[Lignum]

Well its a popular story, but what they say about Panasonic is whats used in space we get in our workshops two years later. Sounds fair to me. They are s*^t hot drills


[good review... thanx]

[patr]

Hi all

I have been watching this thread with enormous interest as many of the points raised in Oz apply to us here in darkest Wales. Whilst I appreciate Anthonys candour and enthusiasm for Festool products many of us committed Festool fans are becoming a tad miffed at rip-off prices in the UK.

Festool UK actively discourage dealers from discounting. When you register for the 2+1 warranty they will not register your product unless you send the sales receipt. This is to check the price the dealer sold it at. As a result of this practice I have registered all my Festool products with the Fuhrer in Deutschland uber Alles as I will not be part of a protectionist pricing policy.

But as I said I am a Festool fan and have most of the tools and am busy saving up for the Domino whose delivery will be delayed until the Chief of Staff is away visiting relations! (You just cannot hide a big white systainer box from a wife whose vision equates to a pair of 7X50 Steiner binos). But I will not be buying in the UK. Here is why:

Rip-off Britain price comparitors. (Note Tax inc, UK 17.5%, Germany 16%)

EBay and the proliferation of German Festool dealers advertising their prices has really put the willies up Festool UK and their dealers. To give an example;

Domino UK Retail RP £627 $A 1429
UK EBay dealer £505 $A 1151
German Dealer £441 $A 1006
German EBay £428 $A 976

If you pay cash in Germany you will get the same 3% discount as the EBay deal.

Call me old fashioned but methinks that the carriage costs to send a Domino from Germany to the UK does not cost Festool £199 ($A428) with the economy of scale of a container load. The carriage charge equates to 31% of the unit cost. German dealers charge £20 or $A46 for carriage to your front door by courier.

Thus, the last 5 Festool tools/CT Mini bags that I have bought have been in Germany and the US. Wilhelm and Hank Schmidt has made a profit, the German/US economy has received additional taxes and Bill Smith here in the UK has been made redundant because of falling sales and tunover.

To put it bluntly Festool probably make the best power tools in the World (IMHO) but their UK importers (wholly owned subsidary of Festool GmBH) are short sighted and greedy (offsprings of a single parent)!

Good to see that Australia and the UK have another thing in common!

What is the answer (Sorry Anthony)?

a. Buy off EBay
b. Buy in the US and buy a 110v transformer
c. Buy in Germany ( I visit 3 or 4 times a year so it is convenient)
d. Disregard the R & D thread.
Fein tools are excellent and do not take you for a ride
Makita do not charge a premium yet my Makita stuff is excellent

d. Invest in Flestool (Shanghei) Corp and await the intro of the new Dlomino 550 at half the quality but costing 100th of the price!

Kind regards
Pat

PS Still going to get the Domino from Germany as having used it on a demo it is an awesome tool and I cannot wait for the Chinese copy!
(Damm thats how the bugg*rs get you!)

[Lignum]

Patr, welcome to the forum. Tell me, is it worth my while trying to get a Domino from E-Bay Germany? Do you know if its fesable from Aus?

[patr]

Hi Lignum
Thank you for your welcome!
I am sure that you could get a Domino from Germany but you would have to ask one of Festool dealers. Here is an email address taken off EBay who you could ask.

[email protected]

You should log onto EBay International and check the other dealers in Germany.

Good luck
Kind regards
Pat

PS despite what I said about Festool, the tools are wonderful and the Domino is a true classic. It is a easy as using my Lamello biscuit joiner but the joint is (IMHO) far stronger. It is a beautiful piece of engineering but far too expensive. But what the hell, there are no pockets in a shroud and most of the cemeteries round here a full of people with money in the Bank!

[Lignum]

Pat im real keen to get a Domino as they do look so good, but $1200 for a power tool is preposterous. Ill follow the link and see if i can do beter overseas. If im successful ill let other forum members know and maybe we can be all winners:)


PS love your aviator. Whats his name?

[patr]

Simou, age 5, 49kg of Rottweiler masquerading as a soft teddybear.
Brother to two sister Rottweilers, Millie and Megan who refuse to give both their age and weight and I am incline not to argue the point with them as they would lick me to death.

Simou is named after a village in Cyprus which is home to a dog rescue centre.

He is a Festool fan. I know because he ate the sanding pad off my 150/3 rotary sander. He did say it was delicious but a bit overpriced for a snack!

Kind regards
Pat

[boban]

Yes Pat, welcome to the forum.

I only feed our dog Metabo sanding pads. As far as I can tell he doesn't know the difference.

[patr]

Boban

Thanks for the welcome!

I think you are wrong. They do know the difference.

Simou's tasting notes on the Festool pad and Rubin sanding disc:

Taste. Delicious. Reminds me of rubber with a touch of velcro. Metal bolt and washer in the middle which I am not looking forward to in about an hours (and counting) time. Must remember to point upwind and mark out a danger zone. Sanding discs are quite gritty with a generous coating of abrasive. Backing paper is nice and has holes like Swiss Cheese. Taste 8/10

Value. Pricey. You could be forgiven for thinking that they are Made in Germany and priced as such but I detect a subtle blend of contempt and smugness with a dash of profiteering as they do have that Made in the Czech Republic kind of taste. The quality though is good and this, I would suspect, is due to the enormous amounts of randd, (a secret recipe and process which I am told is only practised by those very nice men at Burg von Festool), which makes these pads and discs so superior to their competitors. Had a bit of difficulty swallowing. Value 5/10

Verdict. Delish but left a bit of a bad taste. Priced as if they were made in Germany whilst taking advantage of cheaper labour and raw material rates in the Czech Republic. Overall verdict 5/10.

Tasters notes: Had both Festool and Metabo pads. I used to look down on the poor pooches fed on Metabo sanding pads and discs. But I now realise that their owners probably are more sensible and market force savvy than my Dear old Pat who has fallen hook line and sinker for the Festool line. He has Irish blood, lives in Wales and was a soldier you know; not a bad chap but easily lead, (unlike his men who only followed him out of idle curiosity).

But, Metabo pads and discs are truly Made in Germany and are therefore the winner of this weeks Vorschprung Durch Technik prize for value and taste.

Next week I will be mostly eating DeWalt products.

So Boban they do know, are wise and getting wiser and if you feed your pooch on the Metabo 320 grit you will not only save a shed load of money but his coat will have a lovely finish!

[Greg Q]

Pat im real keen to get a Domino as they do look so good, but $1200 for a power tool is preposterous. Ill follow the link and see if i can do beter overseas. If im successful ill let other forum members know and maybe we can be all winners:)


PS love your aviator. Whats his name?

Before you get anything on ebay from Europe, make sure that you get an accurate shipping quote. (Royal mail, for example, is ruinously expensive. A typical Festool shipped airmail would likely be close to 80 GBP):eek:

The other problem is ebay Germany doesn't have PayPal, and its rare to find someone who accepts Visa directly, although tool dealers probably would.

Also, a good free email translation service is AltaVista's Babblefish-it works reasonably well except for most industrial terms.

(The world of dirt cheap Leuco and Leitz cutters and blades is not available to us, as bank transfers and freight will more than double the price of a bargain item. Do yourself a favour and never check the machinery section of ebay Germany-it will make you sick.)

Greg

[Lignum]

Thanx for you advise Greg:) Now im of to look at the German e-bay machinery:D

[Greg Q]

Simou's tasting notes on the Festool pad and Rubin sanding disc:

Taste. Delicious. Reminds me of rubber with a touch of velcro. !

Good luck getting that back.:eek:

[patr]

Hi Gregoryq

Most of the German EBay dealers will accept PayPal but you are right on freight costs and it would be worth getting quotes from UPS/DHL etc.

As for the velcro, Rottweilers call it throat floss!:)

I thought it was just us in the UK that were being taken to the cleaners by our respective importers and it has saddened me to see that you folks in Oz are also paying too much for your Festools.

The trouble is they are so good that despite me ordering myself not to buy them I risk Courts Martial and just buy them. Mind you, as the Presiding Officer I have always found the evidence against me to be rather weak, dismissed the case and awarded myself costs which I then put towards another Festool.

Crikey I do believe I have hit on the ideal way to fund my Domino. I am just off to award myself £450 in damages for the trauma I have had over the horrible sight of our beloved PM, the Rt DisHon T Bliar :D wearing a jacket without a tie in your fair City of Melbourne by the Sea.

Simou!..... bring me another Scotch. No ice.

[Ratbag]

Who was it who frst coined the idiom "a fool and his money are easily parted"? I'm not levelling any criticism at any particular individual here: except perhaps myself. I'm continually astonished at how much we mugs in Oz are prepared to pay for power tools. Companies are able to milk us for a price premium of about 50% over what the North American market is asked to pay. Check out JapanWoodworkerdotcom and others if you'd like a rude shock. By paying up we allow these companies to charge us obscene prices for what is, after all, just a well designed tool. Maybe it's time for a consumer boycott?

I appear to have applied my pen to the metaphorical Bullants' nest and stirred vigorously with my (albeit off-topic) remarks. I apologise. My observations on pricing would perhaps have been better written elsewhere. However, some comments have been subsequently made that warrant rebuttal.

(a) I have been a Festo/ol chooser & user for the last 22 years, buying tools from West Germany, the U.K. and domestically.

(b) I currently have ten goers and 2 dead 'uns, of which the goers are used regularly.

(c) I refuse to accept that my considered reflection of years of use of their products can be construed as criticism, "bashing" or even blasphemy!

(d) I feel disappointed that a pricing policy exists where mature markets such as Oz & the UK are heavily subsidising sales to consumers in less mature markets such as the USA.

(e) If any company is involved in Resale Price Maintenance or other illegal behaviour, then we as consumers have both an interest and an obligation to ourselves & others to see these practises investigated and prosecuted by the relevant authorities. In the interests of protecting myself from malicious litigation I hereby make it succinctly clear that I am not hereby making any allegations, either specific or general, about any individuals, corporate entities or others, in relation to any illegal., unethical or otherwise inappropriate or morally reprehensible activity of any type whatsoever. Any conclusions drawn to the contrary are mere delusions for which no responsibility shall be accepted.

(f) Long term relationships are usually formed by mutual trust and respect. Abuse of the relationship by either party risks both the existing relationship, and the possibility of others being formed in the future. From what I've read in this forum, it appears that some potential and current customers are finding their relationship less than mutually satisfying, perhaps even abusive. Companies risk these relationships at their peril.

(g) Once again, I apologise for the off topic discussion, and for the length of my post.

[Greg Q]

Hi Gregoryq

Most of the German EBay dealers will accept PayPal but you are right on freight costs and it would be worth getting quotes from UPS/DHL etc.

As for the velcro, Rottweilers call it throat floss!:)

I thought it was just us in the UK that were being taken to the cleaners by our respective importers and it has saddened me to see that you folks in Oz are also paying too much for your Festools. .

It's not just the Festools, no siree! We get a thorough hosing on most fronts, although it has improved in recent years. Economies of scale and shipping are frequently cited reasons. I think that here all of the mark-up happens at the distributor/importer level, because retail margins seem lower than elsewhere. In two cases that I know of the importer drop ships from the dock to the retailer, yet charges a 110% margin on ALL of his costs, including shipping. Nice work for some, eh?

[Greg Q]

Hi Gregoryq

Crikey I do believe I have hit on the ideal way to fund my Domino. I am just off to award myself £450 in damages for the trauma I have had over the horrible sight of our beloved PM, the Rt DisHon T Bliar :D wearing a jacket without a tie in your fair City of Melbourne by the Sea.

Simou!..... bring me another Scotch. No ice.

Colonel Pat, you must be a dyed-in-the wool Tory. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[Ratbag]

I dont think anyone is or has bashed Festo, but it IS over priced. They can make all the excuses they like about quality, customer service etc, but the bottom line is the products arnt twice as good as their nearest rivals yet their pricing is. The ROS is great but no better than the Metabo which is far cheaper and the FEIN ROS is measurably better. And the OF2000 which i have used, apart from the great precision fence dosnt come close to my fifteen year old ELU MOF when its in the hand being used, and the smaller 1010 is the most over priced power tool on the market. I have found it very clumsy to use, its the only Festo product iv used that i didnt like. The dust extractors sux just as good as the Metabo and Makita yet they are almost half the price. Dont get me wrong, Festo is top quality gear worthy of any workshop, but i just wish they were at a relistic price, then they would feature in my workshop.

[patr]

By the left!

You are not by any chance LCpl Greg Gregory are you? My once trusty batman who ran off with Regimental Mascot to a far off place? If you are you scoundrel then I hope Festool Australia Pty double their retail prices with immediate effect.

By the way how is Rhoddri the Goat? We miss him you know.

Simou! another Scotch. No ice.

[Greg Q]

By the left!

You are not by any chance LCpl Greg Gregory are you? My once trusty batman who ran off with Regimental Mascot to a far off place? If you are you scoundrel then I hope Festool Australia Pty double their retail prices with immediate effect.

By the way how is Rhoddri the Goat? We miss him you know.

Simou! another Scotch. No ice.

Drat! I knew I should have listened more carefully to "keep head down when engaged with enemy". Don't mention the goat...touchy subject around here. Mum's the word, and all that. Wink, wink, nudge nudge.


Rhodrri bleats her regards...:eek:

[Ratbag]

Sorry Lignum, I meant to add a reply to your post.

I believe that Festool's Rotex sander, and the equivalent models from Makita, Kress, Bosch and Mafell, have unique properties that set them apart from others. They generally have more power available to do the job, and generally excellent vigration supression. Fein, however, have the smoothest operating 6" ROS on the market. But what really sets the abovementioned sanders apart from the rest is the option of direct gear drive to the head. In certain operations, such as really course sanding on rough surfacfes, the combination of gear drive and having your hands so far apart on the machine produces really fantastic, easily and generally safely controllable results (just don't try it one handed @ the top of a ladder on old weatherboards)! It's also fantastic for polishing work in gear drive mode, making it the most versatile machine on the market.

Of all Festool's products that I've tried and used, I believe the Rotex is their best designed and executed tool. It's also the one I use the most. If it wasn't so good then why did all the other abovementioned manufacturers copy the design? Metabo's machine is also very good, too. But it's restricted to random orbits only, with 3mm or 6mm fine and course settings. As previously mentioned, Fein's 6" sander, while beautifully smooth and vibration free, is best suited to the fine work. Fein also have a very big, powerful and fast 8" ROS. While I haven't used it and therefore can't comment on its use, I can add that it's pretty expensive, and the specialist sandpapers, only available from Fein as far an I'm aware, are scarily expensive.

No other ROS is as versatile as the Rotex. No other extracts dust as efficiently. No other allows the sandpaper to do its job without clogging for so long. And no other has such an extensive range of accessories, from both original Festool branded papers, sponges and pads to aftermarket products from Hermes, Mirka and others. If imitation is the basest form of flattery, then the Rotex is the best sander in the world, bar none! While it does have its imitators, it doesn't as yet have an equal. Excepting, perhaps, the new model. As I havent seen let alone used one yet I can't comment. But is sure has a hard act to follow. To a jack of all trades and master of none like myself there's simply no choice.

[riri]

I share Ratbag's views over the Rotex. I would add that i had the opportunity to buy comparatively cheaper ( from a swiss well reknowned firm... ) sandings papers for The Rotex. Results: they would not last half as long. So where is the economy? I shall never do that mistake again. Yes sanding disks from Festool are expensive but they never let you down.

[nt900]

Regardless of opinions or positions people are taking, at least the FESTOOL FORUM is showing signs of life again. That's good.

Gary, I am still waiting for my tickets to Japan. :D

[underused]

Regardless of opinions or positions people are taking, at least the FESTOOL FORUM is showing signs of life again. That's good.

Gary, I am still waiting for my tickets to Japan. :D

nt900,
Sorry mate, I thought the tickets to Japan were in the price of buying the Domino?:D ($1200+) surely it must be??
Unfortunately no hotel. You can stay in my shed, as long as you dont touch my tools;)
You can use my pedal bike to get around, its got a nice basket on the front:D, I need the van.
Hows that sound?

When it arrives in the usa (dont know when that will be?) I can get it from there (woodcraft). Japan is on 100-120v same as over there. Just the bloody shipping costs then.
Cheers. Gary.

[nt900]

It was worth a try. :)

As a shed in Japan can't be that big, I'd rather not have to sleep standing up. When I was there a couple of years ago it was amazing how small hotel rooms could be, so maybe the shed isn't that bad.

Now I would swap a DOMINO for one of those cool automated toilet seats. :p

[Bodgy]

It was worth a try. :)

As a shed in Japan can't be that big, I'd rather not have to sleep standing up. When I was there a couple of years ago it was amazing how small hotel rooms could be, so maybe the shed isn't that bad.

Now I would swap a DOMINO for one of those cool automated toilet seats. :p

NT, you would swap around 8 x Domino's for one of those dunny seats. They cost $12,000 here, and thats not installed.

Great invention tho. I won't go into details but they do put a smile on your face. I particularly appreciate the little icon that depicts either the male or female genitalia. Press the button and the dunny obliges!

[nt900]

$12K here. Wow! I could hire someone for that money!

Now I think they could use these icons to describe the functions (possibly pressure settings):

:o
:)
:rolleyes:
:p
:D
:eek:
:mad:

I think I better stop this toilet talk now.

[John Saxton]

The thing about the domino is that for making (shallow) mortises on a job site they probably can't be beaten, if such a thing is called for. I see that Festool has an introductory price of $300 ish on a systainer with 1200 loose tenons. I think that the stock is compressed beech, like a traditional biscuit. Discounting the cost of the systainer, the price per tenon is north of $0.25, plus ownership costs.

I wonder if for a hobbyist the beadlock system might be a reasonable alternative, especially since they offer router bits now to mill your own tenon stock. I haven't heard if there are any issues (apart from drilling straight into end grain)

I have a mortising unit on my combi machine, and, using end mills, it performs all of my loose tenon work very well. If I didn't I would consider:


1. Leigh M & T jig
2. Wood Rat (I'm not sure which would be first pick)
3. Domino
4. Router jig using endmills or upcuts
5. One of those dedicated hollow chisel things
6. Beadlock
7. Drill press attachment


As GREG has mentioned there are plenty of options that are vying for for your attention and rightly so given that those options are a lot cheaper than that offered by Festo in the recent relaease of the Domino machine.

I have a leigh and all it's attachments as well as a combo machine..so why go to the expense of a Domino, unless it offered something different and on the basis that I could justify it ...from this point in time I can't tho I have previously sung it's praises and for someone starting out it is probably worthwhile instead of duplicating machines.

I have a couple of Festo tools that I did'nt begrudge paying the hefty price tag because I knew they would stand up to the rigours with which I'd put them thru.

Make no mistake Festo have the rep of producing fine gear and stand by it ..their price alone indicates that with the engineering going into the production of said tools, perhaps the marketing ploy in this country needs reviewing if they wish to approach the volume they have in mind here.


It will be interesting to see how sales here progress with the Domino but I'm guessing it's going to be slow and not the market that Festo perhaps foresaw.
This Forum with it's huge following can provide for a wide and across the board(excuse the pun) hearing on tools and be fair about it.


IF'N I was starting out then this is one tool irrespective of the price tag I'd certainly contemplate because given the options and the name behind it,it certainly has prospects whether or not it moves volumes remains to be seen.


Cheers:)

[HoutBok]

I don't suppose it will make any of you feel any better to know that in South Africa we pay at least as high or higher prices for Festool products.
Saw a demo of the Domino outside the local dealer yesterday, thought it great for the kitchen refit. Went into the dealer and gulped at the price but said OK only to be told there was no stock. Will have to wait a few weeks!! Might fall back on the biscuits and just laugh the Domino off.
Great looking piece of kit tho'.

[underused]

Might fall back on the biscuits and just laugh the Domino off.


Thats exactly what I did. At the end of the day if you already have a decent biscuit joiner theres no need for the domino, unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket;)
Cheers. Gary.

[lyctus]

I have been lurking on this forum for some little time in between furtive visits to C/T in Balcatta and a couple of other Festool dealers.When I first went to C/T I was told that they had purchased a fair batch of Dominoes as the boss had a hunch that this would be a sure fire tool despite its price tag. I was promised a nice deal based on buying both the Dominoe and the systainer full o' tennons, and I would get my reward points too. Well. having read your post and finally justifying the 'need' for the tool, I popped along today, money in hand and guess what...they've sold out !
I've put my name on one of the next batch, but maybe this gives credence to the stories buzzing about of 11,000 unit sold on launch in Europe [the C/T guys told me that story too...I was a bit sceptical...then]
The C/T guys said they are a bit amazed at the reaction to the tool....
C/T don't give much away at all in the way of discounts, but they have always looked after me on Festool tool prices...not by heaps, but they do give a little on the list price. Perhaps I shouldn't be saying that ??

[Lignum]

Lyctus:) Its not that im doubting your story, but you should ask to see the invoices for the aledged shipment of Dominos that have arived and so speedily departed. Similar stories of sell outs are here in Melbourne as well, and being in the furniture industry and having built up contacts and networking, i have yet to hear of ONE person that has actualy purchased a Domino. Something very strange is going on with the aledged sales and promotion of this tool:confused:

[lyctus]

D'oh.....I went into the store with cash in my pocket, I'd seen the stack of Dominoes on the display a week ago, none there and they didn't take my money...I really think they did sell out !!

[Greg Q]

I was in a specialist dealer yesterday, they had a stack of them seven deep.:cool:

On the other hand, they were sold out of the sander that I have had on the wish list for three years and really could have used. (Instead I did the job manually, took a few more hours, but saved $500.00.)

Greg

[Iain]

(Instead I did the job manually, took a few more hours, but saved $500.00.)

Greg
Polish on....Polish off, wasn't that the movie plot:D
Bugger hand sanding, too much like hard work;)

[TassieKiwi]

Who knows how to do a poll? Question: If the Domino was <$600 incl box of bits, would it be your next power tool purchase?

[lyctus]

What would you get for $600 like a Domino? A GMC knock-off Domino, probably marketed as a 'Mah-Jong' 'No two mortises in the same plane..variety and surprises in your woodwork'... Hold your dosh it can't be too far away.
I'll wait for my Domino thanks !!

[Lignum]

What would you get for $600 like a Domino? A GMC knock-off Domino




Thats a silly thing to say. You can easly compare notes on a $1300 Mayfell Duo Dowler to a $80 GMC Dowler, but to compare anything at $600 to $1200 is pointless. $600 will buy a first rate power tool cabable of perfect accuracy under all the tough conditions thrown at it. Its like saying dont buy a $450 Porta cable Plate Jointer because its GMC like compared to a Lamello, just not true. Id love a Duo Dowler but at $1300 forget it. Id love a Domino but at $1200 forget it.

A porta Cable Plate Jointer $400 (of the net) plus the new Kreg K3 at $250 and a nice Panasonic Cordless with the remaining $550 would be a far better way to add to a workshop than a $1200 Morticer

[TassieKiwi]

Thats a silly thing to say. .....Id love a Domino but at $1200 forget it.

A porta Cable Plate Jointer $400 (of the net) plus the new Kreg K3 at $250 and a nice Panasonic Cordless with the remaining $550 would be a far better way to add to a workshop than a $1200 Morticer

....yep. The question really is "What can I get for $1200 instead of the Domino?" The answer, whichever route you take, is usually along the lines of "quite a lot, actually"

[TassieKiwi]

I was in the local Festertool outlet yesterday. He's sold all 5 of the first shipment, and 4/5 of the next, in lil' ol' Devonport. He's not one to #### you either. 'Parrently small joining shops love'em. But, there's not 9 joinery shops here. Go figure.

[Rocker]

Tassie,

Admit it; you have just built a precision morticing jig:D You don't need a precision morticer any more:)

Rocker

[Lignum]

I was in the local Festertool outlet yesterday. He's sold all 5 of the first shipment, and 4/5 of the next, in lil' ol' Devonport. He's not one to #### you either. 'Parrently small joining shops love'em. But, there's not 9 joinery shops here. Go figure.

Yesterday i also went to my local dealer to check it out. He told me that you (a dealer) had to put in an order of at least four to guarantee one. If you only wanted one you had to wait until the next shipment. He has had his four now for over a month and im the first to even enquire about them. That is why Festool has run out of them. Not many have landed in the hands of woodies, but are spread in shops in minimun orders. I will have to obviously pay full price for the "basic" kit, but you have extras that are needed and they cost heaps more, but he will make up the "usual" discount with other stuff from his shop. I am just so tempted to get it, but geeez that $$$$ sign is still a lot of other tools to get and have fun with. It is a beautifull peice of hand machinery i must say. Just oozes class and sorry Rocker but this is 100 times better than any morticing jig:)

[Rocker]

Lignum,

For the professional like yourself, you are of course correct; but for the average amateur furnituremaker, for whom time does not equal $, I think it would be very hard to justify spending $1200 on a morticer, when you can get as accurate results with a home-made jig. The only thing you miss out on is the speed and convenience of the Domino. I would love to own one, but there is no way I could justify it unless I won the lottery.

Rocker

[Lignum]

Rocker you are absoulutly correct and i also find it hard to justify the cost. Gee 1200 for a "power tool" is alot of money in anybodys language. Like alot of furniture makers i dont make a great deal of money and strugle at times, i only do this because i just love wood so much, but this is the first time a power tool has come along that i cant stop thinking about and now i have held one i realy want it. But the $$$$:( :(

[Iain]

I tend to think the same way but eventually bite the bullet and try to forget about it, usually works.
SWMBO still thinks my Rotex is an angle grinder:D :D :D

[Carpenter]

My sentiments excactly Ian. I'm familiar with that feeling Lignum. The prognosis is not good, you're going to have to buy it or suffer ongoing anguish. The cure is temporarily painful but in a strange way satisfying. Its sure to ease the pain & funnily enough the anguish slowly but surely subsides over time & you'll discover repeated bouts of happiness whenever you interact with the source of the cure.

[patr]

(This is a despicable tale and one of which I am not particularly proud of. It shows however the lengths that a perfectly sane man will go to aquire a Domino. No animals were hurt in the Operation.)


Last week the Chief of Staff (CoS) finally announced that she was off to visit her relatives in Liverpool. The sadness at her being away for a few days lasted exactly 3 nanno seconds and, as she disappeared over the horizon, I raced to the phone and pressed the start button for Operation Domino Freedom, my well rehearsed plan to order the Domino.

Armed with a belt-fed Visa Card I phoned Deutschland uber Alles and spoke to a man who clearly sits on the right hand of the Father in Festool Heaven. Tales of Europewide, nay Worldwide stock shortages could have put a slight wobbler onto the successful outcome of Operation Domino Freedom. Steady the Buffs, hold your nerve! But then I heard those sonorous words, "A Domino? Jawohl they are in schtock!" Deep breath, count to Zehn, "do you have the Domino Selection box and extra cutters?" "Jawohl! And they are both being packed as we speak!"

2 days later, the DHL delivery man (who made clear how grateful he was at not having to belly crawl up the drive under the watchful gaze of the CoS) brought the two Systainers to my outstretched arms. Gotcha! Operation Domino Freedom successfully concluded. Casualties nil. God Bless Wales and, as you are Coalition Partners, God Bless Australia!

Once I have calmed down I will let you know how I have got on with Dominitrix as I call her, but at the mo it is sufficient to just stare at what has to be one of the most beautifully engineered tools on the planet, chuckle at spending the kids inheritance, and savour a glass or two of Single Malt. :D


Simou!... another bottle of Lagavulin. No ice.

[Carpenter]

Pure poetry Patr.

[ele__13]

Arived home from melb withthe cd of the super dooper bickie joiner by festool sitting on my desk waiting for me .... mmmm i came to the conclusion it wasnt for me .... but hey walked into our festool shop on wed arvo and they tryed to sell me one and wouldnt take no for answer BUT we didnt come home with a super bickie jointer thingie ... mind u they do look nice

happy easter

cheers jules

ps patr thanks for sharing was a good giggle