FESTOOL DOMINO Experience - by those who have used one.

[nt900]

Quite a few people have had demonstrations of Festool's new DOMINO jointing system. But few people who own one or have put one to practical use have commented.

So I have set up this thread to encourage anyone who has used or is using the Festool DOMINO to tell us all of their experiences with this new machine/system.

[riri]

Hi Tony,

My dealer gave me one for a demo a full we and i got ( immediately ) convinced that the Domino would help me make money. I work a lot on sites ( custom kitchens ) and i definitely think this tool will help me do the jobs better and certainly faster.

Sad thing, here in Belgium it is already out of stock. Not a single one to be found...

I keep you posted as soon as i get hold of one

[nt900]

Wow! Out of stock already.


If you don't mind me asking, how do you imagine it will help make you money? Obviously some form of increased productivity, but do you have something specific in mind?

It would then be interesting to compare your initial thoughts to you experiences once you get one into action.

[TassieKiwi]

Now fellas, what's really happened is that everyone has watched the demo's with great interest, handled the tool and thought, "Ooooohh yeah, I'll have me one of these babies!" or similar. Mentally pegged the price at say double a Makita biscuit jointer, mebbe $5-600.

When told "$1200+domino's+bits+outrageous sums for replacement gear" they think, "FFS, I can buy 12 GMc/holiday in NZ/10 old planes/table saw/scms with bells on", and walk away. Well, I did anyway.

Now the marketers at Festool, with 11,500 of these jiggers to sell (note, that's nealry $14m) sitting on the shelf, have told the dealers "let everyone know that theyve sold out", so that us dumb punters think 'The Jones' have one, so I need one too."

Well, it won't work.:p

[Lignum]

When told "$1200+domino's+bits+outrageous sums for replacement gear" they think, "FFS, I can buy 12 GMc/holiday in NZ/10 old planes/table saw/scms with bells on", and walk away. Well, I did anyway.




Or a Dewalt biscuit Jointer and enough left over for 24 slabs of VB

[riri]

Now fellas, what's really happened is that everyone has watched the demo's with great interest, handled the tool and thought, "Ooooohh yeah, I'll have me one of these babies!" or similar. Mentally pegged the price at say double a Makita biscuit jointer, mebbe $5-600.

When told "$1200+domino's+bits+outrageous sums for replacement gear" they think, "FFS, I can buy 12 GMc/holiday in NZ/10 old planes/table saw/scms with bells on", and walk away. Well, I did anyway.

Now the marketers at Festool, with 11,500 of these jiggers to sell (note, that's nealry $14m) sitting on the shelf, have told the dealers "let everyone know that theyve sold out", so that us dumb punters think 'The Jones' have one, so I need one too."

Well, it won't work.:p

Well sorry if i am dumb enough for wanting one but the truth to the matter is: there is not one left in the shops in Belgium. All i can say.

[namtrak]

:rolleyes:

[patr]

Couldnt see the point of that!

[patr]

In this compensation culture nation formely known as Great Britain Ambulance Chasing lawyers such as Grabbit and Run Ltd have been inundated with claims from Festool Dealers staff. These are actual claims and they make harrowing reading. Best get a hanky, sit down and if it is not too early, pour a stiff one.

" We were building a castle out of Systainers containing our Domino stock when a catch gave way and they all tumbled down. I was concussed and cannot remember the price or how many we have have in stock"

"I was going for a poo when I tripped over a Domino being used as a door stop. I fell on the large price tag and got a black eye"

" My arm was fractured as a customer brushed me aside shouting "...£550 for a wobbly angle grinder. You are taking the urine my man."

No stock, pas de stock, stock niet, keine stock........Bolleaux.


This is a true story by Festool YUK.

"Morning Sir. Come to buy a Domino our new super value tool?"

"I have. And not only is it good value but I fully expect to make loads of dosh as productivity levels will soar and I will churn out more than a thou antique fireplaces each day"

"Really Sir? That is amazing. Would you care for a demo?"

"No need. Wrap it up my good man"

"Ah. Sorry Sir but due to unprecedented demand throughout the civilised World, including Belgium where even Inspector Poirot has bought one, there are none in stock"

"Van Damme! Do you have the Samaritans phone number? Will I ever get a domino and will prices go up from the really good value launch price due to demand?"

"No Sir. You have our word that prices will remain unless World prices of RandD go up which you know forms much of the unit cost of the Domino"

" May God Bless Festool YUK!!!!"

Simou! .......silence when you sopeak to an Officer!

[Lignum]

"I was going for a poo when I tripped over a Domino being used as a door stop. I fell on the large price tag and got a black eye"



Funny stuff :D :D :D

[martini]

Anthony from Ideal Tools kindly loaned me a Festool Domino DF500Q Jointer to use for a week. Here are my impressions.

Firstly, I have to say that this is a beautifully engineered tool, typical of Festool products. It is easy to operate and simple to adjust. It has very good dust extraction. The dominos (like loose tenons) come in thicknesses of 5, 6, 8 and 10 mm and there is a separate bit available for each thickness. These bits are easy to change with a small spanner after unlocking the motor body from the frame of the machine. The motor/gearbox assembly slides on 2 finely machined rods and its action is very smooth. The dominos appear to be made of a light coloured hardwood with a pattern embossed onto the flat surface and splines on the rounded edges.

The machine plunges like a biscuit jointer but the bit rotates and oscillates from side to side unlike any other tool I’ve seen. The side to side oscillations look vaguely like a jig saw up-down action and would be about as fast. This oscillation means that you need to hold the tool firmly, especially when making holes in hardwood, or else it will vibrate sufficiently to make a larger hole than required.

The fit of the dominos is quite precise and they can be easily pushed into the holes with your fingers. They are not a press fit like dowels, which typically need to be hammered into their holes. They have a slight slop side to side (about 0.3 mm) which tended to be greater in the hardwood samples I made. This made alignment easier when multiple dominos were used in one joint. However, you may need to be careful aligning the joint while clamping during glue-up as a slight movement is possible due to the dominos not being a press fit. The machine has 2 settings to make wider slots, one 6mm wider and one 10 mm wider than the domino. I felt these were too wide for most applications. I would have liked to see this setting calibrated for +1, +2, +3 mm, etc, instead of the 2 wide settings but it is easy to make a slightly wider hole by simply repositioning the machine to the right or left and re-plunging.

The depth of cut is set in steps from 12 to 28 mm on the side of the machine. As the dominos come in lengths up to 50 mm, this would appear to cover a reasonable range but I wanted to try some joints in 12 mm material and the 12 mm minimum was too deep for those panels. I suppose you could put a shim in front of the machine to reduce the depth, but I would have liked either a variable adjuster or a smaller minimum.

There is a handy plastic slide on the side for setting the jointing height which is marked in thickness of timber from 16 to 40 mm while making the joint in the centre. Alternatively, you can use the infinitely variable scale. There is a fine scale and centre mark on a clear plastic insert just over the cutter which enables the tool to be accurately lined up on a pencil mark where the hole is to go. There are also retractable pins on either side of the cutter for quick registration for cutting a fixed distance away from the side of the material.

I made a number of joints in hardwood, softwood and MDF and they were all easy to make and precise in their fit. It’s certainly easier than dowelling (using jigs which are clamped to the work-pieces) and due to the length of the dominos, the joined pieces are held in position better than biscuits. While these types of joints can be made just as well by a horizontal mortiser, as well as other M & T machines, the Domino is faster and portable. There is also nothing to stop you from making your own loose tenons if you can mill stock to the correct thickness and round over the edges with a router.

Martin.

[Lignum]

Now Martin you have left out the answer we all want to know.

Are you willing to part with $1200 for it? I have no doubts on the quality and uniqueness of the product, but it is after all just a power tool. If you answer yes id like to see a copy of the recipt:)

[martini]

The project I had in mind for it would not immediately justify the cost, and I already have a horizontal mortiser attached to my combi machine. However, if I didn't have the mortiser, I could see myself buying one. I think price is a more personal decision and one that we get used to by comparison with other available products. For instance, most quality cordless screwdriver/drills cost about $250, but the Panasonic costs closer to $500 and I bought one of those (actually my second - my last Pansonic lasted over 12 years of heavy usage) and I have not regretted it. After buying many tools over my life, I now realise that you have to pay for quality and you might as well pay once instead of buying Ryobis and GMCs etc and not getting the precision and endurance you want.

Martin.

[Lignum]

Geez id love one so much and i know it would be sensational for what i do. But im strugling with the idea one tool for 1200 or two others for 600 each:confused:

[martini]

The real question is would those 2 other tools for $600 give you as much benefit as the Domino for $1200?

[TassieKiwi]

Geez id love one so much and i know it would be sensational for what i do. But im strugling with the idea one tool for 1200 or two others for 600 each:confused:

Damn the expense, buy it. "Quality is remembered long after yada yada.."
Then, we can all be jealous.:D Seriously, the quality and amount of furniture that you produce would, I think, justify it. Do some sums - if the efficiency pays you back over say 1 year, and the tool lasts for say 10, you're winning! One thing - the max. length of tenon is 25mm - is that enough?
One more thing - our dealer is selling the thing inlcuding the box of tennons and the bits for $1200.

Hey Martin - my 8yr old Panasonic's batteries are rooted - did you have to replace yours?

[martini]

Hey Martin - my 8yr old Panasonic's batteries are rooted - did you have to replace yours?

My original Panasonic has NiCd batteries and I'm on my 3rd set. The nature of the battery means they don't last that long. The drill still works great but I now use it as a back up and second drill. My current Panasonic has NiMH cells and is only a few years old but still holds its charge like new.

Martin.

[TassieKiwi]

Ah. What are they worth? Do you re-cell them or get aftermarket jobs?

[martini]

Ah. What are they worth? Do you re-cell them or get aftermarket jobs?
The second one I bought new for $96 (ouch). The third one I re-celled for significantly less.

[knucklehead]

Can't wait to see a GMC equivalent of the domino.
I'll buy the first Domino knock off that hits the shelf.

I reckon it will be under $300. The dust extraction will be rubbish and it'll be noisy enough to wake the dead, but I'll still get one.:D

[riri]

Hello again, i refer to my previous post in which i was saying that in Brussels there were then no more Dominos to be found ( sold out ). I finally got mine today :) together with a Dominos full systainer. Regretably there were still out of 2 accessories ( guides ) for which i will have to wait another 2 weeks.:(

Too early to tell about my experience but i have a project next week for which i shall use my Domino. I shall keep you informed.

The seller told me that throughout the world they sold in 3 months the amount of Dominos they had forecast for one year. They are working 3 shifts in an effort to increase production capacity.

[nt900]

Riri,

Excellent. Looking forward to your feedback.

[LuckyDuck]

Thank you martini for your reasoned reply. I have read about the domino machine and admired it at a distance. As with all Festool, you get what you pay for, and the domino is expensive. I am most interested in your comments about the overlap of the use of this tool with a horizontal slot mortiser. I don't have either machine but have wondered whether it would be "better" to put my money towards the slot mortiser rather than the domino, assuming that I don't need the portability.

So, how much faster is the domino compared to a dedicated mortising machine? And, aside from speed, is there any application where the domino can outperform a mortiser?

Thanks again for the info. Regards

[Carpenter]

Lucky Duck - just get the free CD from Festool, or watch it online at
http://www.festool.com.au/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=431

[riri]

I have unpacked my domino this morning and did a couple of quick little jobs to get used to the machine ( panels assembly ). I can tell it is fast and accurate when using stops included.

However i have a problem when setting the height of the panels. I was working with 25mm MDF panels. So i set the height at 25 ( preset ) and i mortise only to discover that the hole is off-centered by 2.5mm. I have tried to set it manually and i get the same result. I have called the guys at Festool Brussels but i am not satisfied with their answer which is basically: you have to work like you worked with a Lamello ( only one side assembly ). Then they say it is not important that the hole is not centered...

Whilst i can understand this my question is why then providing a preset scale as well as a precise visual manual scale? Also where is the advantage compared to a Lamello mortiser?

Am i missing something here? :confused:

Thanks for yr help.

riri

[boban]

Am i missing something here? :confused:



About A$1200 I think :D

[patr]

Riri

Bon Jour, Goede Dag

Crickey you had me worried there. I have just tripped over my trusty dog Simou and almost spilt a glass of the finest Malt in my haste to run to the workshop and test the Domino. Praise be to the Lord and all in Festool Heaven for she is OK! The cut is dead centre using all of the depth marks and all of the different cutters. I can only think that you have a faulty one or, and without wishing to be in any way rude, are you plunging your cut using the top plate or resting on the base plate? The centre point is found from the top plate and if you plunge using the bottom plate of the Domino on material up to 40mm you will never get a true centre. Just a thought and I am sorry if you are doing that.

Regards

Tot Ziens, Au Revoir

Pat

Simou! Noch eine Talisker. Ohne eis.

[riri]

Hello Patr,

Thanks for sharing my concern. I have actually tried both ways and it is roughly the same. It then looks like i do have a faulty one :eek: . I am having someone from Festool coming over tomorrow to check this matter out. I shall keep you informed. Meanwhile do not spoil anymore of that scotch!

Bye, bonsoir

riri

[riri]

The guy from Festool just left. He can't figure this out. He first said: "you never gonna get this mortaise centered it is not made for". Why is it better than the Lamello then was my answer!!!

He had to agree that something is wrong when i showed him that sometimes you can...have it dead centered!

The preset scale is right ( although not for all measurements ). The strange thing is that when you preset it at 25mm you only have 22.5mm clearance measured between the resting plate and the bottom...

The visual scale is wrong and with mine ( and his ) it is impossible to get it centered when you take half of the thickness of the board.

My quick method of letting the resting plate "freefall" on the board to get the precise thickness and then block it with the lever is also wrong.

The Festool man is going to put the question to Festool Germany.

I'll keep you posted.

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

Thank you for your concern over the Malt. Luckily none was spilt as my wife threw herself on the floor to break my fall. Winded her a bit but the Malt is £28 a bottle and that would have been a disaster.

You are right saying when set at 25mm the measurement from resting plate to bottom plate is 22.5mm. This is because the only constant distance is from the bottom plate to the centre of the cutting bit. It is exactly 10mm and never changes. The height adjustment, whether manual or using presets, is from the top resting plate to the centre of the cutting bit so when you select 25mm, the distance from the top resting plate to the cutter bit centre is 12.5mm. Add the 10mm from the cutter bit centre to the bottom base plate and you have your overall measurement of 22.5mm.

This is why when you wish to centre your domino hole into your material you must rest the top plate on to the material and not the base. If you have 25mm MDF and set the preset scale to 25mm you only alter the top plate by 12.5mm. It is impossible, unless you have vertical movement in your cutter bit, not to centre your hole. If you set the preset to 40mm, measure the distance from the top plate to the centre of the cutting bit and it will be 20mm: from top to bottom it will be 30mm.

Hope this is of help and in honour of Belgium, where two of my sons were born when I was stationed in Herentals and Mons, I shall drink to your health with a small selection of Trappist Beers. First a Westmalle Trippel, then a Chimay Bleu followed by a cheeky Orval. Then I shall be very, very drunk!

Tot ziens, Bon Nuit

Pat

Simou! Une Duval pour moi, une Frambois por Mama.

[LuckyDuck]

Thanks Carpenter for the link online to the Domino. I'll have a look now. Regards.

[riri]

Hi Patr,

I am relieved that no harm was done to your favorite beverage.

Thanks for yr comments which indeed shed a light as to why i only measured 22.5mm when set at 25mm. However you do not come with an answer for when i use the 2 other methods: manual scale and letting the top plate resting on the material to get the exact thickness.

When using these 2 methods do you get a centered mortise?

The guy from Festool had brought his demo machine and was unable to get a centered mortise.

Regards,

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

Yes it does. Either by manual (side scale) selection of height or using the height preselect method. If you set a height and lock the top resting plate I cannot see how it would not centre unless you have a badly moulded preselect stop, (it is plastic), or a mal-positioned reading scale which can be adjusted.

I have measured all the heights to the centre of the cutting bit and they are all exact.

May I suggest that you measure your MDF exactly and then measure half that measurement from the cutting bit centre to the top of the resting plate and lock it. If there is no vertical movement in your cutting bit, and the tightness of fit of any hole you have cut would show that, then I cannot understand how the cut would not be central.

However, stranger things have happened and I do not profess to be an expert. After all I am a retired soldier and used to the " big map small hands" mentality of the military mind!

Perhaps other Domino owners or Festool dealers could shed some light on this but I have to admit to being rather puzzled. Please keep us all informed and should there be a fault then having shelled out a fair amount of money I would expect Herr Festool to release a statement from Schloss Festool on the dreadful punishment given to the R and D team.

If they need any assistance on that then I could help advise on the Shot at Dawn regulations!

Kind regards

Pat

Simou! Put that nice Festool R and D man down. He was only following orders. Oh and bring me another Malt and a Westvleteren Blond

[riri]

Hi Patr,

Just to confirm that when using manual scale or letting the top plate rest, i do not get a centered mortise. I have my (faithful :confused: ) Domino by my side and i have just retried without success. Mystery!

Regards,

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri
Got Verd mer!
You must return your Domino to the Festool Krankenhaus for eine schnellmachencentregefixen operation. Herr Doktor Festool and his team of experts will be waiting, files at the ready to retore your beast to its former glory. Or they just might replace it! Here is a piece I did this morning using the largest cutter at all the preselect heights. All are dead centre so you must have a really sick machine or I must have the only accurate one! Where are our Festool dealers in Oz? Anthony have you tested your stock? We Europeans would like to know! Kind regards
Pat

Simou! Careful, you will cut your mouth on those Fosters ringpulls.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f379/simou/festool004.jpg

[riri]

Hi Patr,

Thanks for this lovely photograph. It is indeed clear that yours is perfect. But Patr i am going back to my question: when you are using the manual scale, do you get the same accuracy?

I agree with you. It would be nice to get some dealers'views on this.

By the way i spent one very nice year at UWIST university a long time ago.

Regards,

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

Glad you had a lovely time at UWIST!

Yes on the manual scale as well. The scale is dead accurate. May I suggest that you loosen the scale, it has two star screws, lock your top plate at 10mm from the top resting plate to the centre of the cutting bit and adjust your scale marker point to 10mm. Once adjusted, cut and measure and then trial some other height cuuts. I am baffled as to why your machine is not cutting at the correct depth.

Regards
Pat

Simou! Just a small one dear boy and one for yourself.

[riri]

Sorry Patr, but i do not quite follow what you are suggesting ( i should have maybe stayed more than one year at UWIST :p ). Are you suggesting that i measure 10mm from the center of the bit to the top plate and then adjust the reading scale? If that is the case how do you accurately measure the center of the bit?

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

This is becoming a bit like the Patr and Riri show! A riveting tale of an Irishman living in Wales and a Belgian educated in Wales corresponding on an Australian Wood Workers site trying to figure out how to get a German tool working! You couldn't make it up!

Yes to your question. You can identify the centre of the cutting bit. I used the 10mm cutter and measured the centre of the cutter to the top of the resting plate using a steel ruler and a digital measuring caliper gauge. If you cannot see or get the exact centre then measure from the furthest edge of the cutter (you need to revolve the bit to get its largest side profile) and deduct half of the diameter (5mm) from your measurement.

Once you have your measurement, move the resting plate to the top of the steel ruler and lock your resting plate. Adjust the side scale to the height and you should have an exact scale reading for the height.

Hope this is of help but we should perhaps resort to PMs rather than bore the whole of the Southern Hemisphere! Deafening silence from the Australian Festool Dealers who wanted experience of the Domino or is there a fundamental fault with Domino which they would rather not discuss on this forum?

I have spoken to two other Domino owners who have not experienced Riri's problems so I suspect that he has a Freitag machine or as we say in Wales " a right duffer!"

Regards
Pat

Simou!! Pronto I am in need of light refreshment as my brain is beginning to hurt. No ice.

[KevM]

Hi Riri

This is becoming a bit like the Patr and Riri show! A riveting tale of an Irishman living in Wales and a Belgian educated in Wales corresponding on an Australian Wood Workers site trying to figure out how to get a German tool working! You couldn't make it up!

Hope this is of help but we should perhaps resort to PMs rather than bore the whole of the Southern Hemisphere! Deafening silence from the Australian Festool Dealers who wanted experience of the Domino or is there a fundamental fault with Domino which they would rather not discuss on this forum?

Simou!! Pronto I am in need of light refreshment as my brain is beginning to hurt. No ice.

Gents,
Please don't resort to PM's as I am finding the exchange between you both extremely entertaining:D :D .

Kev M

[Lignum]

Hi Riri

This is becoming a bit like the Patr and Riri show! A riveting tale of an Irishman living in Wales and a Belgian educated in Wales corresponding on an Australian Wood Workers site trying to figure out how to get a German tool working! You couldn't make it up!




Not only entertaining but also informative as im getting one in a few weeks so its good for me to read whats up with the machine. The reference to Fosters puzzled me:confused: Whats Fosters:confused:

[nt900]

Hi Pat,

I will put one through a similar test to yours later today, and post the results.

[patr]

What ho Lignum! Whats Fosters? You and me too chum but here goes.

I asked the Chief of Staff to shop for some pure mineral water the other day and the poor old thing bought 4 tins of a beverage known as Fosters. She said that the shop assistant said, " Water Madam? We are right out of Perrier but I overheard another customer saying that "Fosters was like making love on a flat bottomed boat, its like f g near water ", so perhaps this will do? Poor muddled dear bought it and after pouring it away down the sink I let me trusty dog Simou play with the tins but the ring pulls are a tad sharp even for a Rotty.

Anthony

Thank you. I will be very interested in the results as I am hoping that Riri does indeed have a Freitag machine or a maladjusted side scale.

KevM

The Pat and Riri Show!

Thats all Folks!!!!!!


I am just going to take the Chief of Staff a cup of tea and a slice of toast as I need her to stay in bed whilst the Man from DHL delivers my Symetric saw. Thank God it doesnt come in a Systainer as one that size would definately not get through her (very sensitive) Festool detection system.

Cheerio one and all from Darkest Wales

Pat

Simou!! Now drink this dear boy, its just a small one to stop you barking at that nice DHL man. We do not want to wake up Mummy.

[nt900]

Pat,

Today is just about over and I have not done the Domino centre setting test yet. I will do the test tomorrow and show the pics to the forum.

[riri]

Hello Patr ( and the others ),

I've spent all the afternoon in the basement with...my domino. Incidentally, before fidling with the scale i had a word with Festool Belgium and they told me not to touch it before they had received an answer from R&D in Germany.

But i did exactly what you did the other day using the manual scale.

Here are my results:

For a depth of 14mm ( scale set at 7mm ) center is off by 2mm
For a depth of 20mm ( scale at 10mm ) it is right on center!
For a depth of 30mm (scale at 15mm ) it is off by 3mm
For a depth of 40mm ( scale at 20mm ) it os off by 3mm.

There it is. The curious thing is that the only good measurement is with 20mm depth which is twice the distance between the bottom plate and the center of the bit.

Have a nice we

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

Thank you for your reply which only adds more to the tension of the " Has Riri got a Gef..k.d (technical German terminology for faulty) Domino? " , saga. It is very, very strange. I cannot fathom it and await with interest what Doktor Festool and his Merry Band of Men will have to say about your Domino. Clearly something is very wrong with your machine and it will be interesting if Anthony has anything to report once he has tested his. I hope, rather selfishly, that you have a duff one and that there is not a design or manufacturing fault as I cannot remember ever using a tool which does exactly what it says on the tin..... but twice as fast.

Mind you, if Team Festool arrive at your house in the middle of the night and demand to be taken down to your basement to see your Domino, make sure they are not wearing long leather coats and have no high intensity table lamps and boxes with dangling wires and crocodile clips.............

The Symetric Saw arrived this morning, courtesy of the Man from DHL, and is another cracker from the Festool stable of, "tools to melt your heart and Visa card." Luckily the Chief of Staff slept through the delivery and Simou, bless him, didn't bark and wake her up. It is now safely scrimmed up in the workshop and I now have some time to compose a story ready to tell my beloved should she remark " that looks like a new one or I don't remember seeing that before."

Regards

Pat

Simou!! Well done this morning old boy, fancy another small one?

[riri]

Hi Patr,

Just back from a we in Paris ( to forget about the Domino ). Symetric is a great tool. You will enjoy working with it.

regards,

riri

[riri]

Hi Patr,

Attached is a photo of my testing.

For a thickness of 15mm ( scale on 7.5mm ) i have 5 on top of mortise and 6 under
For 20mm it is ok
For 25mm , 9.5 on top and 11 under
For 30mm, 11.5 on top and 14.5 under
For 40mm, 16 on top and 19.5 under

riri

[patr]

Hi Riri

Welcome back from your sojourn in Paris and thank you for the photos which show a tres malade Domino. There is clearly something wrong and I am really interested in what is the cause so hopefully Herr Festool will be working overtime to find an answer. It has got to be the scales because if you measure your own height and lock the top resting plate it must cut in the central position. After I did the first trial I cut a further series with the 6mm cutter and again it was spot on. I would be consulting that well known firm of Bruxelles Lawyers, Grob en donk (et Fils), and demanding compensation for post traumatic stress!

Lets hope Anthony can shed some light on this. The clock is ticking Anthony and at the mo the Northern Hemisphere is two up on photos. The honour of Australia is resting on your posting!

The Symetric saw has been baptised cutting several trial angles and I am staggered at the accuracy and clean cut. If I were a smoker I would be a tad annoyed crumpling me fag papers trying to check up on gaps but no, none, nichts, niet not even a whisker passes through. It takes angle cuts, albeit on thin or narrow stock, to a new height of precision. 10 out of zehn Herr Festool for another stunning tool which does exactly as it says on the tin.

Kind regards from an unusually sunny Wales

Pat


Simou! Shall we try a small Ricard in honour of Riri's visit to Paris? Of course we will. Salut!

[patr]

Hi Riri

Welcome back from your sojourn in Paris and thank you for the photos which show a tres malade Domino. There is clearly something wrong and I am really interested in what is the cause so hopefully Herr Festool will be working overtime to find an answer. It has got to be the scales because if you measure your own height and lock the top resting plate it must cut in the central position. After I did the first trial I cut a further series with the 6mm cutter and again it was spot on. I would be consulting that well known firm of Bruxelles Lawyers, Grob en donk (et Fils), and demanding compensation for post traumatic stress!

Lets hope Anthony can shed some light on this. The clock is ticking Anthony and at the mo the Northern Hemisphere is two up on photos. The honour of Australia is resting on your posting!

The Symetric saw has been baptised cutting several trial angles and I am staggered at the accuracy and clean cut. If I were a smoker I would be a tad annoyed crumpling me fag papers trying to check up on gaps but no, none, nichts, niet not even a whisker passes through. It takes angle cuts, albeit on thin or narrow stock, to a new height of precision. 10 out of zehn Herr Festool for another stunning tool which does exactly as it says on the tin.

Kind regards from an unusually sunny Wales

Pat


Simou! Shall we try a small Ricard in honour of Riri's visit to Paris? Of course we will. Salut!

[patr]

Sorry for posting twice, I was distracted by my trusty dog Simou struggling to open a bottle of Ricard Pastis which has a screw cap rather than the cork he is more used to. He has been disciplined.


Simou! Stay away from the Enter key when opening bottles.

[riri]

You are right Patr, a nice pastis in the sun, there is nothing like it.

riri

[micknews]

Hi Patr,
You have me intrigued re The Symetric Saw. I can find no reference to it either on the Oz site or the US site. The UK site is down.
What exactly is the Symetric Saw?

Thanks,
Mick.

[riri]

Hi Patr,
You have me intrigued re The Symetric Saw. I can find no reference to it either on the Oz site or the US site. The UK site is down.
What exactly is the Symetric Saw?

Thanks,
Mick.

I know this product is not on offer on all markets. I believe it is not available in the US for example. Must be some safety questions. Shame it is an excellent product.

riri

[patr]

Mick, here is a piccy of the symetric saw, more details are on the Festool.de site. It is a compound mitre saw with a 70cm height and 80 cm width cut. The saw is fixed, thus you could call it a chop saw, but the two fences either side move in synchronistion with each other to centre any angle for cutting. It is designed for thin stock, frames,beading or anything within the cut capacity. Its unique feature is that you use a bevel gauge to take any angle off your workpiece, in or out, and transfer the bevel gauge to the adjustable saw fences which automatically centre the angle. Lock the fences, cut the beading or strip from either fence side and hey presto you have a joint which is exact and which you cannot literally see any light or push the proverbial fag paper through. It is a limited capacity tool, designed for European skirting boards, laminated floor beadings and picture frames but it will cut any angle with total precision and finished mitres look absolutely superb. It is pricey as are all Festools but as I said on an earlier post, I am succeeding in spending my Kids inheritance with the gusto of a man posessed and my chuckles can be heard all over our lovely valley!
The cast alu base is a masterpiece of engineering and detail and the supplied blade is a 48 tooth one which leaves ends like glass. I will try and send a copy of the page the Bible (Festool catalogue) which expalins it so much better that me.
Regards
Pat

Simou! Or a little boy, dressed in a Rotty skin, driving a bulldozer...in my lounge.
http://www.festool.de/cat/images/Kat_2005/halbstat_saegen/jpg_zoom/zoom__hs_sym70e_561160_p_01a.jpg

[patr]

Mick,
As promised the page. It is expensive but superb. Please do not ask how much as my beloved the Chief of Staff, is becoming more proficient at using the computer and it could be harmful to my well being were she to inadvertently log on and read the posts.

If you are reading this, My Dearest, may I say how beautiful you are this morning and that these tools I am talking about are figments of my imagination and the ramblings of a man who is very, very drunk (with admiration and devotion to you my Princess).

Regards
Pat

Simou!! Pas the chunder bucket old chap. I feel somewhat unwell.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f379/simou/img489.jpg

[Lignum]

I want one:(

[Auld Bassoon]

The oh so familiar pain of seeing an "Omigawd - I gotta have one of those" new tool. Familiar to many here...:( ;)

[riri]

I will add that with a special blade it does wonders with aluminium beadings as well.

riri

[jonga]

Mick,

It is avaliable in Australia, you need to look under the trimming saw section, try this link http://www.festool.com.au/mediandoweb/index.cfm?sLanguage=English&ID_O_TREE_GROUP=2510&PARENT=1763&AKTIVPROD=1

Do a search for part no. SYM 70 E AUS if the link doesn't work.

I haven't seen it in reality but can see it being an extremely useful tool and at just under $1200 I don't think it is unreasonably priced.

cheers,

sjoerd

[nt900]

And before you ask Pat, I am yet to do the DOMINO center accuracy test with my machine. I promise I will do on the weekend. I can't have the Northerners in front of the Southerners can I.

[patr]

Yacki Da Anthony
Thank you for your reply on " before you ask!"

I Refer my Honorable Friend to the point made in my dispatch of 21 hours ago:

"Lets hope Anthony can shed some light on this. The clock is ticking Anthony and at the mo the Northern Hemisphere is two up on photos. The honour of Australia is resting on your posting!"

But seriously, lets put all this frivolous nonsense to one side and get to the bottom of wether there is a systamic design or manufacturing flaw in Riri's machine or I have won the lottery and have the only working one.

Kind regards and the best of luck in your tests.

Pat

Simou! Time for an aperatif. A small Remy Martin is in order.

[riri]

Hi Patr,

Some guy on a french forum tells me he also has a good one! Although he says he does have some discrepancies when he uses the manual scale. I have asked him to do the test you initiated which i then copied!

Symetrical yours,

riri

[riri]

Hello,

I just had a word with my favourite dealer. Apparently they had a talk with Festool Germany and they have decided to give me another machine (without telling me what is wrong). Only problem, the Dominos are again out of stock here and i'll have to wait 2 months to get a new one.

As i really need it for a bathroom job i have set for the next weeks ( my old Lamello is dead ) i shall keep this one until they have a replacement/or mine can be swiftly fixed. As usual good service from Festool.

End of this story!

riri

[patr]

"And before you ask Pat, I am yet to do the DOMINO center accuracy test with my machine. I promise I will do on the weekend. I can't have the Northerners in front of the Southerners can I."

Anthony which weekend was that old bean? Riri and me have spent the last week glued to our screens in anticipation of the Antipodian results. Even Simou has started wailing as he hasn't had his usual 5 mile walk each day.

So, remembering that many years ago I did a United Nations tour in Cyprus with the Australian Police Contingent (fine lads, never drank a drop, kindness personified to drunken British soldiers and happy to walk away from fights - not!) I called in a favour from a fellow frequenter of the late night bar in the Mess and got your PMs number. Spoke to Mr Howard on the red phone hoping he would chivvy up a certain Festool Purveyor and he said, and I quote,

" You got me out of bed for this? Poke of you Welsh pratt. Anthony said on the weekend, he didn't say which weekend. Oh by the way Taffy, do you still call sheep Falklands War Brides? "

Thats the last time I call that rude man at 3 in the morning.

Regards
Pat


Simou! A rather large Talisker, jaldi jaldi!

[nt900]

My test shows the DOMINO being pretty accurate in putting the hole in the centre of the thickness of the timber.

Using both 5mm and 8mm cutters to make two runs of holes, and have marked where the centre of the hole should be as measured from the surface the fence rested on. A few marks are a bit off, as I forget how to correctly divide by two on occasion :confused:. The longer of any two lines next to a hole is the correct one.

It is not 100% sub-millimetre perfect on a couple of holes, but as with biscuits, you should be always placing the fence of the DOMINO on the face of your work to ensure a perfect match. Following this approach, I get a good result of course. I am not sure any machine would put the hole/slot/whatever exactly in the centre of the board every time, due inconsistent features of the timber, slight angle here, bow there, etc.

There you go Pat - you can stop bothering our PM now I have done the test 'this weekend' :rolleyes:.

[patr]

Anthony

Thank you for the results of your test which show that Riri did indeed get a duffer. The key to the successful use of the Domino is, as you say, to use the top fence as the reference point and to ensure that when plunging you rest the top fence on the materiel.

I have used the Domino extensively over the last two weeks and have yet to find fault with the accuracy of the fence or the pre-selected heights. So with the speed and accuracy of cut I have really cracked on with the list of projects that my beloved has so kindly written for me and pinned at strategic points around the house. Mind you the mantra, " you will make that and justify the cost of that tool!" is becoming a tad boring.

Sorry I had to phone the PM :) but it clearly did the trick and whilst I am still rather hurt over his comments (I am Irish not Welsh) I forgive him in the interests of proving that the Domino is a magnificent tool and does exactly as it says on all the sales blurb!

Kind regards
Pat

Simou! An orange juice with just a tinkle of Smirnoff.

[riri]

Many thanks to you both, Pat and Anthony,

I take that Anthony's Domino is sometimes a little bit off ( although this may due to calculation errors ). The Festool rep who came tp my place called me up and said that after recalibrating his manual scale, his Domino was now perfect. I am still wondering whether to do the same with mine and going against the dealer's advice ( which is wait until i have another Domino and swap it then ). Apart from this height question mine is running perfect.

Thanks again,

riri

[patr]

Riri
Thank you. Were I you I would re-calibrate and try again. You have nothing to lose. The scale has elongated holes to allow for adjustment. The easiest way is to slacken off the scale, measure with a metal ruler exactly 30mm from the bottom of the base to the top of the resting plate , lock the top plate and then move the scale to 20mm and align to the arrow head and secure. Your Domino should then give exact results.If she doesnt then there must be a machining fault and the top plate is not square (90 degrees) to the main plunging face.
Hope this helps, give it a go!

regards
Pat

Simou is too tired today, the weather is very depressing.

[riri]

Hi domino's specialists,

I am about to start a bathrom job for which i shall put the domino to ( good :p ) use. It will be hardwood ( teak like ). I have to assemble 4 planks( or is it sheets?) of 25mm thick and 140mm wide to make a surface. Would you also use the 8x50 domino? For a lenght of 1500mm i was planning to have 5 domino. Is that a good idea?

Thanks

riri

[nt900]

Interesting question Riri.

As we collectively learn more about the application of the DOMINO system, we will begin to work out the best spacing and size domino to use for different joints and applications.

I started in overkill mode, using 10x50mm domino closer together than I now think I needed to. I was also in the habit of routing medium to larger width holes giving me plenty of room to align boards. Since then I am using smaller and smaller dominos for non-load bearing applications, and more likely to follow the Festool instructed method of the first hole being an exact fit, and the remainder using the medium width holes. Yet again, preferring to use smaller dominos in terms of depth and thickness, but retaining the similar width if possible. For example, instead of using a 10x24x50, using the 8x22x50, or instead of using the 8x22x40, using the 6x20x40. This is also a bit more economical relying on smaller domino's and more accurately fitting holes.

I might try a test to see what length of boards I could edge join using small dominos and the tightest fit holes. Using the LA-DF500 stop to set the distance each domino is apart from the preceding one.

If I were to hazard an opinion (given my limited experience so far), I would suggest Riri you have got it about right for your situation. If your boards were 19mm thick and you were trying to pull the surfaces perfect flat (relative to each other) using the DOMINOs, then a closer domino spacing may be of value. Since you material is 25mm, I doubt more dominos is of any advantage. You could even go down to the 8x22x40 for this application. I assume we are talking this construction is for the benchtop, probably sitting on a carcass. Is that correct?

Anyone else venture an opinion?

[Lignum]

the size and spacing would be irelavent for edge joining. Just wood on wood with no dominos would be just as strong. The dominos would be for alignment only

(one day to go before i get my Domino:D :D :D :D :D )

[riri]

Hi Anthony,

Yes it is indeed for a benchtop and there will be some load as 2 heavy sinks will be suspended to it ( cut out ). That is the reason why i felt 8x50 would be appropriate. With this new system we must all develop a feel for it.

Thanks for yr input,

riri

[TassieKiwi]

the size and spacing would be irelavent for edge joining. Just wood on wood with no dominos would be just as strong. The dominos would be for alignment only

(one day to go before i get my Domino:D :D :D :D :D )

Glad that you went for it. Please give us 'The Report' once the honeymoon is over.

[Lignum]

:( delay at the bloody bank:( Have to wait till tomorrow (wed) to pick it up. One more sleep ---- im sooooo excited:D :D

[riri]

the size and spacing would be irelavent for edge joining. Just wood on wood with no dominos would be just as strong. The dominos would be for alignment only

(one day to go before i get my Domino:D :D :D :D :D )

Hmmm sorry could you elaborate? I do not see myself suspending two heavy washing basins relying on glue alone!

riri

[Lignum]

riri:) As 90% of the forum members will tell you, the glue bond even with PVA is stronger than the wood when long grain to long grain (edge to edge) is used. Buscuits, dowells and domino dowels will only add a minute amount to the overall strength. A part from being used mainly for alignment of the two joining boards its mainly a peice of mind thing. Helps you sleep at night better;)

If i were you and wanted to put them their so it feels safer, just use them coming in 20mm from each end and about 300mm apart. Im not sure about the domino dowels if they are designed to swell, but with biscuits or dowells (unless its end grain to long grain) i never put glue on them. Even all the table tops i make they are only but joined and never buscuited. And ive never had one come apart or had a complaint:D

[riri]

Thanks Lignum. Dominos dowels are indeed made to swell. Funny thing Festool recommends using quite a lot of glue on the dominos. I think i can apreciate what you are saying with gluing long grain to long grain but as you say, for the sake of a peaceful mind i will still use 8x40 dominos.:rolleyes: Always nice to have different views especially from down under.

Regards,

riri

[patr]

Hi Lignum

The spacing you have suggested is just about what I have done joining two boards together for a long coffee table top. The Dominos add a modicum of strength but as you say the glue itself provides the greatest strength as it bonds the whole surface area of the two edges. It is crucial that the edges are square and straight to maximise strength. Obvious I know but that has been one of my many downfalls in the past! ( Military remember...the why use finesse when a bit of brute force on the clamps is all you need syndrome).

The Dominos are excellent for dry run assembly but again caution is needed here... I cut exact holes along both edges and had a bugger of a job to seperate the two boards to glue up. Mind you, using dominos to 'mortice and tenon' the rails saved oodles of time, are very strong even on the dry run and look as if a master craftsman had done them. Dominos Vobiscuitum for our Latin affectionados

Unlike normal biscuits, the Dominos are solid wood, fluted to hold the glue, and do not expand in the same way as compressed biscuits do when soaked with glue.

Hope you get your Domino soon and post some first impressions.

Regards from a very windy and wet Wales.

Pat


Simou! Pop round to the bank and sort out Lignums problem. Be gentle.

[Lignum]

Pat:D Domino tomorrow arvo:D And i aready have a special spot for her beside my bed so she dosnt get to cold at night;)

And tell me? the domino biscuits here seem very expensive. Do you buy them or do you think its economical to dress, rout and cut your own?

And its good to see Simou`s gentle on bank managers:rolleyes:

[TommyC]

Pat,

May I take this opportunity to ask whether you, as an Irishman, albeit living in Wales, had considered popping over to Eire to attend the Parliament and listen to you old friend John Howard make his address? I believe there may have been some seats vacant.....

[Rocker]

Regards from a very windy and wet Wales.



This sounds like a good example of the figure of speech known as pleonasm; if you had said 'from a dry and sunny Wales', on the other hand, it would be paradox.

Rocker

[riri]

Hi Pat,

Would you go along with Lignum and omit Dominos altogether for the job i have to do or would you use Dominos. If so would you glue them or not?

Thanks,

riri

[patr]

Hi Lignum

Simou is a most gentle and honest Rotty and doesnt mind Bank Managers too much. He draws the line at Estate Agents, car salesmen and Consultants on the basis that he knows they are lying the minute they open their mouths.

I too keep my Dominitrix by my bedside. Sad I know but who in their right mind would keep an expensive woman with a very elegant and perfectly formed body dressed from head to toe in black in the shed..........Ooh Matron!

TommyC

Now you tell me. If only I had known that rude man was visiting the Emerald Isle. I would have confronted him over our last conversation and demanded an apology.:) But as a politician speaking to politicians the address was probably full of self-congratulatory Bullus Excretia which would have incensed me. But I suppose I could have visited that most wonderful of establishments, the Jamesons Distillery where hard working Micks turn water and a bit of other stuff into a golden liquid which deadens pain and gives you the courage to tell the beloved how beautiful she is whilst at the same time extolling the virtues of the Rotex 150 which all the other boys in the gang have got...except you!

The sun has come out and the valley is as green as the shamrock in John Howards lapel.

Regards
Pat

Simou! A Bushmills Malt methinks to prove that there is no religious predjudice in this household.

[patr]

Hi Riri

I would use them on the basis that they do add some strength, help align the boards and to justify spending all that money on a Domino!

I really like the ability to dry assemble and make any adjustments before gluing and clamping.

Lignum

Sorry I forgot your bit on the Dominos. The packs cost about £40 here in the UK with the sizes and quantities as shown on the Festool websites. I dont think I would have the patience to make them but cannot see why not. As the Domino allows you to adjust the length of the hole to allow movement before gluing you would only have to get the thickness correct and then cut to your desired length. As an amateur spending my kids inheritence I will probably buy them but for anyone in business I would suggest doing an accurate first cut using Festool dominos and then select the elongated hole position and use shop made dowels. Contact with the side of the hole is less relevant as it would be the top and bottom of the dowel that provides the glueing surface. I wouldnt bother with rounding off the shop made dowel but would make a simple scraper to flute the top of the dowel to hold the glue.

Kind regards
Pat

[Lignum]

I would suggest doing an accurate first cut using Festool dominos and then select the elongated hole position and use shop made dowels.




Excelent idea. Once i get used to what the machine can and carnt do, it will all make more sence;)


I love making chairs and i reckon the "Dominitrix" will be a stunner for them:D

[patr]

Rocker

I bow my head to your mastery of the English language but I have said on more than one occassion that I am a soldier. This means that words with more than one syllable often cause me grief. I will write out a hundred lines......

" You will not use superflous words on this forum and never use statements which may contradict themselves"

Kind regards from a windswept Principality which is currently devoid of sunshine and is suffering a high level of moisture dissipation travelling in a top to bottom direction.:)

Pat

[nt900]

I can't reject the other members assertions that glued, well planed and fitting board edges are proving the majority of the joint strength for a glued up panel. But for clamp up time a few dominos can help alignment, and even help transportation and repositioning of the dry fit panel. And to continue following that logic (glue is the main strength in this sort of joint) you could use the smallest size domino to achieve the same alignment effect.

On a different subject - gluing the domino's in - Festool suggest lots of glue, and personally I use lots. I am interested in how people apply the glue to the domino hole. With conventional biscuits you can buy one of those glue bottles with the biscuit shaped nozzle. I have never used one, but instead use the PVA bottles own nozzle, cut off a bit to give a wider spread, and 'lay' the glue down the biscuit hole which would pretty much coat the sides and bottom of the biscuit hole.

For the domino, I am tending to use a small paint brush to brush the domino hole with lots of glue and then continue to brush the mating faces of the joint with a film of glue. Then after a little while after the glue has been absorbed into the timber, repeat the painting of holes and joint surface. I find just using the glue bottle alone difficult to ensure I get good glue coverage on the top and bottom of the domino hole. It mostly falls to the bottom of the hole where I don't want the greatest concentration of glue. As others have suggested, I believe the strength is from the top and bottom larger surfaces of the domino and want good glue coverage there.

How are others doing the gluing?

[patr]

Hi Anthony

I too wondered how to get an even spread of glue in the hole and have found that using a trimmed down baby's bottle cleaning brush to be the best as it does the sides and the bottom at the same time. Its wire core is robust enough for repeated use. Trim the nylon bristles down to the smallest domino hole and just dip it into your glue pot or bottle and apply. Wash up is dead easy. For edges I use a Sears glue applicator kit ( part no 967254) I bought in the States years ago with has a squeezy bottle and several interchangeable heads one of which is a small roller which spreads glue along the edge with very little waste. It also has a crescent shaped head applicator which fits biscuit holes beautifully.


regards
Pat

[Lignum]

Is it an unhealthy obsession to sleep with the Domino on your bed side table:confused:

[Carpenter]

Geez you're wierd Lignum.;)

[patr]

Is it an unhealthy obsession to sleep with the Domino on your bed side table:confused:3 Days Ago 01:03 PM
No this practise is endorsed by Herr Doktor Felix Istnotwierd of the Institute of Psychiatric Assistance for the Bewildered in Vienna. Writing in the May 2006 edition of " Tools for Nightime Antics-A beginners guide" he states,

" The surprise expressed by those who are concerned by men (und women naturlich) who keep expensive tools by their bedside is brought on by a hidden and very worrying illness known as Deprivadia Festoolus. This illness comes about when a new tool is purchased by someone which then triggers a high level of jealousy in the mind of usually right minded members of a closed society of Antipodean converters of expensive wood into sawdust. Phrases such as 'you lucky Bastard' und 'hope you slip over the power cord' as well as mockery at the need to keep their tool at their bedside is indicative of the onslaught of DPV (Deep Vein Pissedoffisness). The only known cure is to immediately phone your local practicioner (Dr Anthony or NT900 as he is know to us in the medical profession) and prescribe yourself a Domino. Gently place her by your bedside and you too will experience the thrill of having such a beautiful and expensive lady who wants for nothing more than the odd spray of Eau De 3in1 and a few wooden biscuits."

So there you have it. Dr Felix is no fool and any suggestion that he works for a well known manufacturer of power tools from the fair city of Wendlingen are totally untrue

Gott be mit you all

Regards from Wales ( neither Dark, nor Sunny or even a tad wet. Just green and lovely boyo.)

Pat

Simou! Line the Dominos up in three ranks. Shortest on the left. Tallest on the right.

[Auld Bassoon]

Methinks that Simou brought you some meths instead of Bushmills by mistake... :D

[patr]

Steve

Thank you for that. I have just had Simou on CO's Orders and he admits that instead of a bottle of Bushmills he brought a tin of Brasso. This disturbs me as it was well hidden in a brown paper bag and only used for special occassions such as when we totally run out of alternative beverages. I have put him on a fizzer and were you to suddenly drop into this beautiful part of the Principality you would see the unedifying sight of a 90lb Rotweiller, dressed in full combats, tin hat and a rifle over his head, doing 40 circuits of the parade ground (or my garden; concrete painted green with white stones neatly painted and in line). Oh and he lost a stripe too.

Yours sincerely :D

Pat.

Simou! Head up, neck to the back of your collar you idle Rotty you!

[Lignum]

Only trouble is little Domi is on the left bedside cabinet under the new little nightlite i bought for her. But last night i woke and had a severe panic attack as the table was empty. But unbeknown to me at the time i was sleeping on my right hand side. The relief was somewhat overwhelming when i realised. Maybe i need to purchase a SYMMETRIC SYM 70 for the right side cabinet just for the peace of mind of getting a good nights sleep.

[patr]

Lignum

Constable Letsbeavenue of the N Wales Heddlu (Police) has informed me that a vicious gang of Domino Rustlers are operating in the Valley. To counter this I have engaged my trusty dog Simou to guard Dominitrix and Rizla ( The Symetric, so named as you cannot get a fag paper between the mitres it cuts).
He will guard them with his life unless the Rustlers have the odd sandwich or steak pie secreted on their person.


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f379/simou/morningatfrondeg006.jpg

Kind regards

From a quite dark Wales

Pat

[Rocker]

From a quite dark Wales



'Twas ever thus.

Rocker (Who has many rain-sodden memories of the Berwyns)

[nt900]

:) Pat.

[Lignum]

Pat:D :D :D what a cracker of a pic http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...frondeg006.jpg (http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f379/simou/morningatfrondeg006.jpg) Simou is one hell of a nice looking Rotti:D

[patr]

Dear Mr Lignum

You have made me blush you sweet talker!:o

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f379/simou/familyphotoalbum_033.jpg

This shows me in a better light though my #### is still cold from sitting on the concrete guarding those bloody Festools. Oh for a rabbit to chase or a Rustler with a slice of Pizza. Sorry got to go, he who thinks he is in charge has just shouted for a GandT.

Kind regards

Simou