carbon steel and hss

[ss_11000]

is there any differences in sharpening hss to carbon steel?

i am wanting to no because next term (when woodturning starts at school) i'm gonna learn how to sharpen my tools on the bench grinder. i'm getting hss chisels for my birffy (11/04) and i've got a cheapy set of carbon steel ($30ish of ebay a few months a go). i'll get someone experienced to sharpen my hss tools properly while learning with the carbon ones. so is it any different sharpening different steels?

ps at the moment i'm using a hand held diamond stone ( from ct) to sharpen them ( bench grinder will make life alot easier!!!!)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Yes! (A certain recent thread pops to mind! :D )

CS loses it's temper when overheated... if the tip goes blue when sharpening, it's stuffed. You have to reshape past the bluing and resharpen.

HSS is a lot more forgiving, you can lightly blue it without removing it's strength. This is not to say that you can't ruin HSS by overheating, just that when you see it go blue you can simply back off, let it cool a bit and then continue sharpening.

Having said all that, good quality CS (not the cheap chaiwanese stuff... I mean tools like Sorbys and Taylors before HSS was available) will keep its' edge longer than HSS and is becoming cheaper to buy 'cos HSS is the "flavour of the month." Learning to sharpen it properly is definitely worth your while.

Also, keep your diamond lap convenient to hand at the lathe. When you notice your tool starting to lose it's edge, give it a quick stroke or two with the lap and keep right on turning. When it starts taking four or five (or more) strokes to freshen the edge, then it's time to take it back to the wheel. This'll save a lot of walking time and make your tools last longer 'cos they're losing less steel.

[ss_11000]

i'lll have someone basically standing over me to tell me if i'm going at it a bit fast or held it for to long so i should be right ( hopefully) with overheating

ps. thanx for the quick reply skew and the good advice. i think i can send u a greenie but not sure ( yep i can )

pps 500 posts!!!

[soundman]

Its good to see "young folk" getting into turning. Don't let the gray & wrinklies have all the fun.

Reminds me of last wood show, saw this "sweet young lass" wandering round with a huge nice brand turning chisel sticking out of her goodie bag & had to chuckle to my self:D

cheers

[ss_11000]

Its good to see "young folk" getting into turning. Don't let the gray & wrinklies have all the fun.

cheers

well at skool, we have a woodturning option in sport for terms 2&3. we are allowed 20 people but usually get up to 40 trying to get a spot. then we are taught by cessnock woodturners club ( most of which are over 45 and some over 70) so woodturning is pretty popular in cessnock

[soundman]

Woodturning..... and entirely more civilised and usefull activity for even mildly geeky types than thugby or pricket:D

cheers

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

well at skool, we have a woodturning option in sport for terms 2&3. we are allowed 20 people but usually get up to 40 trying to get a spot. then we are taught by cessnock woodturners club ( most of which are over 45 and some over 70) so woodturning is pretty popular in cessnock

Lucky beggar! At our school, "boys' sports" involved wandering around the oval for an hour or two and calling it cricket, or being mugged and dragged through mud by the school bullies, which they called playing footy. There was no balls, bats, stumps or whatever equipment involved; that'd all been nicked by the afore-mentioned bullies. :eek:

Oh, yeah... the third option: sitting outside the principal's office. I think that even after 30 plus years I could still draw a map of all the cracks in the corridor walls. I hated our so-called sports periods. :rolleyes:

[ss_11000]

Lucky beggar! At our school, "boys' sports" involved wandering around the oval for an hour or two and calling it cricket, or being mugged and dragged through mud by the school bullies, which they called playing footy. There was no balls, bats, stumps or whatever equipment involved; that'd all been nicked by the afore-mentioned bullies. :eek:

Oh, yeah... the third option: sitting outside the principal's office. I think that even after 30 plus years I could still draw a map of all the cracks in the corridor walls. I hated our so-called sports periods. :rolleyes:

my school seems pretty good now.

[echnidna]

I'm not really into turning as I'd rather make furniture but I'm quite competent as a spindle turner. I've got a an elcheapo chinese set and they're great.

I keep a file handy while turning and sharpen as needed while I'm turnin.

I tested the steel in one a few years ago and they would harden and temper very well but I've never got around to doing that as the file method is very easy.

[ozwinner]

Im sure I read somewhere once, that HSS can get to glowing red before it loses its edge.

Al :)

[ss_11000]

Im sure I read somewhere once, that HSS can get to glowing red before it loses its edge.

Al :)

doesn't red come before blue then it goes to white?

[ozwinner]

No.
Red is after blue but before white.
As in I before E except when I eat the pie. :confused: :confused:

Al :p

[ubeaut]

Skew - Think you'll find that HSS keeps its edge much longer than CS but the CS can be sharpened to a keener edge. Least ways that's what I found over many years of using both.

Cheers - Neil :)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Neil, I can only talking from personal experience but I'll swear my trusty old CS Sorby detail gouge lasts twice as long as the new HSS Sorby one I got for Chrissy. (Not my choice, but who looks a gift horse...?) I guess it could be that the new 'un mightn't be as good an "overall" quality as the CS, but I wouldn't have thought that of Sorby. I certainly don't spend any extra time when sharpening either... a couple of licks across the wheel and back to work. I've noticed similar with other tools, but I guess that could be 'cos I'm also using cheap CS tools as well. More an appearance than fact. I'll try to devise an empirical test and see how things go. What's the bet I'll get conflicting data? :D

Al, I really wouldn't know what the temp is to ruin HSS. If I blue it I kick myself anyway... it's a bad habit to get into. If I sharpen all my tools as though they're CS, then I won't accidentally "cook" one after sharpening several HSS's. Been there, done that, learnt my lesson. :o

Stirlo, bluing is just when the steel starts turning a dark, gun-metal blue for a few mm around the worked face, a closer look'll show a small "rainbow effect" kinda like an oil slick. It stays this colour when it cools. It'll blue well before it actually starts glowing any colour at all... but I still wouldn't touch it with bare skin.

[Shedhand]

Its good to see "young folk" getting into turning. Don't let the gray & wrinklies have all the fun.

Reminds me of last wood show, saw this "sweet young lass" wandering round with a huge nice brand turning chisel sticking out of her goodie bag & had to chuckle to my self:D

cheersShe was probably on her way to the local mall to stick it in some pimply faced ex-boyfriend...:rolleyes:

[ss_11000]

Stirlo, bluing is just when the steel starts turning a dark, gun-metal blue for a few mm around the worked face, a closer look'll show a small "rainbow effect" kinda like an oil slick. It stays this colour when it cools. It'll blue well before it actually starts glowing any colour at all... but I still wouldn't touch it with bare skin.

that makes sense...thanx

[Gil Jones]

Attached is a text file dealing with the various colors used when heat treating steel by using visual colors. "What happens when it turns blue during grinding". Maybe a few insights will be helpful.

[ubeaut]

Skew - Your old Sorby is possibly HCS (High Carbon Steel) which will hold its edge very well and pretty much as long as HSS and much longer than CS. I have a number of the HCS tools which I use to to keep especially for fine finishes prior to carving when sanding wasn't possible because it could ruin carving tools.

The HCS could be sharpened to a really keen edge and gave a brilliant cut, but I still preferred the HSS for longevity especially in hard or abrasive timbers.

Most CS tools to my knowledge are just that CS very few are HCS also not all HSS tools are equal. I have found the best ones to be P&N especially as they are the only readily available Aussie tools on the market and Ashley Isles, not all that easy to get hold of any more but always seemed to be a cut above the other UK tools, Bottom of my list in HSS Sorby and Marples (Record/Ridgway). Haven't tried any of the elcheapo HSS sets that are around now. For that matter haven't tried or used any tools for a few years.

These are just my opinion. When I used to run classes I had sets of tools from 7 different manufacturers and invariably the tool that a student used each week were the tool they finally ended up buying. Often the cheaper tools were more popular, not necessarily because of price but because of familiarity.

Cheers - Neil :)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Skew - Your old Sorby is possibly HCS (High Carbon Steel) which will hold its edge very well and pretty much as long as HSS and much longer than CS. I have a number of the HCS tools which I use to to keep especially for fine finishes prior to carving when sanding wasn't possible because it could ruin carving tools.

The HCS could be sharpened to a really keen edge and gave a brilliant cut, but I still preferred the HSS for longevity especially in hard or abrasive timbers.

It's definitely HCS. :) When I talk about CS I usually talk about "good quality" (meaning respected name brand) and "chaiwanese" tools. By good quality I generally mean HCS (0.55-0.95% carbon content) which the better tools were made from and by chaiwanese I mean the MCS stuff (0.29-0.54% C) currently flooding the market. But people become confused once you start talking about different steel grades, so I keep it simple with my generic labels.


Most CS tools to my knowledge are just that CS very few are HCS also not all HSS tools are equal. I have found the best ones to be P&N especially as they are the only readily available Aussie tools on the market and Ashley Isles, not all that easy to get hold of any more but always seemed to be a cut above the other UK tools, Bottom of my list in HSS Sorby and Marples (Record/Ridgway). Haven't tried any of the elcheapo HSS sets that are around now. For that matter haven't tried or used any tools for a few years.

Yes, good new CS tools are a rarity now, more's the pity. I still like them more than HSS for finish work probably because, as you said, it's what I learned with. I've a couple of P&N HSS bowl gouges but the flute profile feels wrong to me and I tend not to use 'em, so I can't say how they hold their edge. :o I should buy a detail gouge or two and see how they compare.

Most of my HSS is Sorby, 'twas the most common at the time, although I'm starting to collect a few Henry Taylors which I think are better.

I still use the chaiwanese CS tools fairly regularly too... mainly for jobs where I need a custom profile and I don't want to regrind a more expensive tool for a "one-off" or buy a good tool that's destined to be a dust-collector. :)

[Lance Stunning]

I learned the skew with a HSS Taylor. As the skew was a challenge, I managed to stick with it until reasonably confident. It came with a radius edge which helped and I sharpened the profile until I could turn beads with no additional finishing. Happy and satisfied eh? But, still not as trusting as working with a bowl gouge.
So, I buy a Glaser skew on EBay. I have ground similar profile and nearly the same radius cutting edge. So what? The only difference appears to be the steel. This tool slices square oak billets in half the time and effort. The surface quality on beads is almost polished. It must be sharper than the Taylor? So, I go back and resharpen the Taylor with the same setup as the Glaser. Go back to turning beads in Oak, not the same surface and more catches. To be fair, the Glaser is a longer and heavier tool. I think I handle the rolling better. But, that does not explain the better surface quality. FWIW

[HammaHed]

:doh:

Dear All - Carbon tool steel and High Speed Steel.

The differences: (a simple version)

Carbon Tool Steel (depending upon exact carbon content, other constituents and state of heat treatment and cold working etc) is an excellent steel for manual and powered wood cutting tools and indeed much metal cutting as well.

The issue is that above 200*C it starts to "untemper" or soften and progressively lose it's cutting edge.

This main limitation is only really a problem in machining other metals, as the cutting speed and feed rates had to be kept very low or the tool would become ruined.

Around the time of World War One, this limitation was unprofitable, and so research was conducted into steel alloys that would enable faster cutting speeds in harder materials (steel alloys) .

(the vague details)

It was discovered that by alloying chromium and other material into the iron, that as the iron went through phase changes at different temperatures - meaning the crystaline structure went from face center cubic to body center cubic that the chromium carbides made the alloy HARDER at a dull red heat of I think around 650*C - 710*C.

This meant that the cutting tools could be run at a much higher cutting speeds than plain carbon steel cutting tools.

In the simplest of terms comparing carbon steel hand tools to high speed steel hand tools is as relevant as comparing scones to coco nuts.

The alloys exhibit very different properties at very different temperatures - as they are designed to do.

This is why high speed tool steel is called HIGH SPEED tool steel.

While there is much cleverness and research and practical experience on the subjects of alloy steels - their uses and properties; quality carbon steel hand tools - with tight tolerances on the alloys, the working and heat treatment, relative to the cutting edges and bodies etc.,

The carbon steels ARE designed to be used as hand tool steels, at hand tool speeds and at hand tool temperatures.

HIGH SPEED steels are designed to be used by power driven machinery, at power driven cutting speeds and power driven temperatures.

Thus the plain carbon steels with the appropriate alloying, heat treatment and control of the grain growth etc., makes it possible to get very, very sharp and hard edges that are far more durable than the HIGH SPEED steel cutting tools at ambient temperatures.

QED.

[Texian]

:doh:plain carbon steels with the appropriate alloying, heat treatment and control of the grain growth etc.

That was interesting. The tricky part is in those details, and the marketing that follows.

[HammaHed]

There is no such thing as magic and sorcery in steel making; only tight controls on the formulation, heat treatment and the forging and cold working - followed the testing of the finished product.

There were really brilliant straight razors and there were really #### straight razors.

Then there were really #### batches of really brilliant straight razors.


:roflmao:


Naaa Honestly - There are no one size fits all statements in this.

In fact there are NO arguments, only simple statements in the absence of HARD facts and concrete terms.

I will make this up - just to illustrate the point.

Carbon steel A and Carbon Steel B. - being used to make plane blades.

A is pure iron with 1.2% carbon.

B is pure iron with 0.8% carbon, 0.2% silicon and 0.3% vanadium.

A is heated to 880*C, quenched in light oil (very hard and easily broken), then it's annealed at 440*C for 3 hours, 280*C for 2 hours and cooled in the furnace. (not quite so hard but not brittle)

A+1 (harder carbon steel) heated to 760*C, quenched in oil, annealed at 350*C for 6 hours, cooled in oil.

A+2 (tough carbon steel) heated to 600*C for 2 hours. Heated to 800*C for 2 hours. Quenched in chilled brine (very very hard) Tempered at 250*C for 24 hours. air cooled.

And there is a whole heap of whacky heat treatments for B as well.

They all exhibit different properties, different grain sizes, different degrees of hardness (brittle), edge holding, flexibility and toughness (flexible)..

So you can not say "OH Carbon Steel This, High Speed Steel that".

It's ALL very very specific on the exact formulation of that EXACT steel type, the exact heat treatment process, the hot and or cold working etc..


I saw a site the other day, that they micronise the elemental powders to make their high steel bars from because the exact fusion of the powders to compose the alloy steel bar, gives remarkably different properties than a simple cast bar of the generic "High speed steel"..

Bohler-Uddeholm Australia - High Speed Steel (http://www.buau.com.au/english/b_2265.htm)

Process for PM (Powder Metalurgy) tool steel High Alloy Steels will gain improved properties by increasing the solidification rate. This gives a fine microstructure and small, well-distributed carbides in the matrix.

During Powder Metallurgy (PM), the melt stream is atomised by nitrogen gas into small droplets with an average size of 50-100 µm. The powder is filled into capsules directly in order to avoid contamination. With hot isostatic pressing (HIP), the powder is consolidated to 100% density.

By using a special refining sequence, the cleanliness of the molten steel is improved prior to atomisation. This results in improved mechanical properties and an extremely low non-metallic inclusion level (SuperClean™).

The HIP'ed PM capsules are hot forged and rolled to smaller bar sizes followed by heat treatment and machining.

PM steels are used in very demanding applications within cold work, plastic and cutting tools.

(ende of that)

And there are so many variations on the high speed steel formulations and the carbon steel formulations; their heat treatments and such like.

I forget the brand name "Leah Ferret?" or something, are making wood plane blades with cryogenic soaks (making this up a bit - 260*C) to improve the grain refinement.

Clearly plasticine is not as good as even crap steel to make wood cutting tools, but the issue of comparing steel alloys are only valid IF exact specifications of the formulations and heat treatments are used and the properties are listed - like from laboratory testing.

Steel formulation A was able to make a 50mm wide cut at 0.1mm deep for 160m in baltic pine with a density and moisture content of X, at a power level of 120W with a feed rate of 2000mm a minute. At approximately 160m the power level required to perform the cut began to rise by 1% per 5 meters up to approximately 200 meters where it began to rise by 3% per 7 meters, indicating a complete loss of the cutting edge and the tearing of the timber fiber.

Steel formulation B was able to make a 50mm wide cut at 0.1mm deep for 370m in baltic pine with a density and moisture content of X, at a power level of 100W with a feed rate of 2000mm a minute. At approximately 200m the power level required to perform the cut began to rise by 3% per 9 meters up to approximately 300 meters where it began to rise by 5% per 4 meters, indicating a complete loss of the cutting edge and the tearing of the timber fiber.

Formulation A was a commercial grade at treatment 202A, at $120 per 50Kg. It exhibited good edge retention and easy resharpening. It was also able to sustain damage without major edge breakage on embedded objects.

Formulation B was an exotic grade at heat treatment 4058 at $350 per 10Kg. It exhibited very good edge retention but difficult resharpening. It was prone to severe edge damage on embedded objects.

They could be summed up as Grade B gave 2 X the cutting distance of Grade A; but it cost 15 X as much for the heat treatment, it was hard to resharpen and would smash a chunk out of the cutting edge when it hit a nail requiring about 3 or 4mm to be ground off the plane blade; where as Grade A would dint and require leveling by a resharpen of approximately 0.5mm.

Although the former was "made up" this illustrates the difference between generalisations vs rigerous scientific evaluation and cost benefit analysis.

This is the sort of comparative information that is NOT provided when shopping - between the brands; and this is not the sort of information that is available nor used when people make "the generic" comparisons between the alloy types.

[rsser]

FWIW, Brent Beach when testing plane iron edges reckoned there's no diff btwn HCS and HSS in how well they take an edge.

Somewhere in here (http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/index.html)

[oldiephred]

The sharpening exercise at school should be a good experience, You should look at the sparks being produced because this is a good indicator of the hardness of the steel. You will find that the sparks from carbon steel are larger and less white than those from HSS or tool steel. I am surprised that someone might find carbon steel to be better than tool steel regardless of who manufactured the item. Try a file on the grinder and see the difference in sparks. This observation can be useful if you choose to progress to making your own tools. A simple file scratch can also indicate to you if a tool you intend to buy is a good grade of steel or is soft. IMHO of course.

[soundman]

AAAAAAGHHHHHH :oo::oo::oo: the dead have arisen and walk among us.

The original post from 2006 was more about the difference in sharpening lathe tools.

There were in the past quite a few carbon steel turning tools about... but these days even the cheap ones are high speed steel.... some better than others.

and most of us are well aware that you have to be carefull with carbon steel and never allow it to so much as colour on the grinder lest the temper be drawn.

There is some debate was to how far you can push HSS on the grinder.

Of course there is a great deal of difference in the quality and hardness of different pieces of steel.....members have even commented about the difference in hardness and quality of different tools in the same set of purchased tools.

Beware the living dead:oo::oo:

cheers

[NeilS]

:doh:

Thus the plain carbon steels with the appropriate alloying, heat treatment and control of the grain growth etc., makes it possible to get very, very sharp and hard edges that are far more durable than the HIGH SPEED steel cutting tools at ambient temperatures.



Yes, IMHO, a good quality HCS can do an equal or better good job on light finishing cuts and scrapes ( i.e. if you put hard desert acacias aside into another material category altogether from what we call wood :D). But then, who is going to pick up another tool for those cuts when the HSS tool that is already in the hand will do the job OK and for longer.