Fast Drying Wood Formula and Results

[CameronPotter]

Hi all,

Thanks to Hughie for pointing out Ron Kent's website to me... Here are my results/thoughts.

First of all, I bought homebrand dishingwashing liquid concentrate and used it in a 50/50 mix with metho.

I rough turned a bowl and painted this solution on very wetly and I did it about 5 times over the day.

I left it for about a week and there was no cracking and warping was minimal...


Now, I really put this through its paces. I used wet sassafras and turned in about 8mm thick at the rim and had a wide band around the centre. There were also two flaws (well branches at least) one at the thick rim, one at the base which went all the way from the base through to the side and also into the bottom of the bowl...

After leaving it for a week. It was SLIGHTLY out of round (111mm in one direction and 114 in the other).

I chucked it in the rebate at the bottom again and finish turned it today.

You can see the pics in my next post.

The wood turned like a dream, but was obviously dry. I will let you know if it warps or cracks later, but I doubt it.

Each of the inclusions have minor cracking around them, but only minor and I have really tried to destroy this bowl in drying! :D :rolleyes:

Anyway, I am happy with the results and the bowl didn't discolour either.

I hope that this works for others too...

Cam

[CameronPotter]

Simply some more piccies - this time finished...

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The wood turned like a dream, but was obviously dry. I will let you know if it warps or cracks later, but I doubt it.

From memory, Ron Kent says his LDD treated wood turns as though 'twas green, (ie. very easily) often spraying everywhere, but simply doesn't crack like normal greens when drying. Would you say this applies to your method? From "obviously dry" I gather it didn't spray, but did it turn as easily as green wood?

'Tis just my curiosity asking... I'm undecided about trying your method as spraying the blanks several times a day is too much work for this li'l black duck. Methinks I'd rather stick to my microwaving technique; 'tis much quicker (a couple of hours all up!) and I don't have to remember to keep doing things. :rolleyes:

[CameronPotter]

Turns like wet wood, but feels dry.

As for paiting the wood several times.

It was simply what I did - not necessarily what must be done.

As for putting it on, well, I simply painted it on with a brush and did it a few times as it took about 30 seconds to do and I reasoned why not?

I would suggest giving it a go to see what you think.

It is easy, fast and clean.

Cheers

Cam

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Hmmm...

I've still got half a gar-bin full of H2O/LDD that's a bit on the nose after removing the last lot of blanks. I've been meaning to top it up for the next lot but I might just use it as is and let it run out. I haven't tried turning any of the blanks yet, no time, so I don't know what the results will be like. Yet. I have hopes though...

But I may try your method, giving a coat as part of the shed lockup procedure. It's not like I've anything to lose. :D I'm not holding my breath over it though. ;)

[ticklingmedusa]

I have heard of some people soaking blanks by immersing them in a LD / water 50-50 solution for a few days with good results. As soon as I get some green wood I
want to try it.
I hope you will let us know how it works.
tm

[tonysa]

i read an article recently from the US where they were boiling their blanks and their intial tests were promising. I can't find the link but google might find it.

[Hickory]

Tell me more of this method. Presently I am using Denatured Alcohol. I soak the piece over night immersed in Alcohol. Then wipe dry in the AM and wrap tightly with Brown Paper and set on a drying rack for a couple of three weeks. all the while I am weighing and recording the change in weight. When the piece has quit changing weight for a week or so I feel it is dry. Have a great deal of success with this but yours sound to be quicker.

Please explain the time reference here and will soaking provide the same results as "Wet Painting" several times a day? Does the Soap leave a residue on the piece? How long do you wait after the solution?

Skew, I have tried the Microwave method and have not been to successful there, perhaps I rush, over nuke.... Usually I find failure at grain differences, such as limb confluences and crotches as ell as knots and such.

As for the boiling, I have heard that boiling the piece causes the cells to rupture and thus allow water to escape more rapidly and so dry more quickly, haven't tried that method yet.

For the soap soaking, I also heard where some soak in pure soap and allow to dry the same method as the alcohol soak. But also heard it is messier and slings soap all about.

Based on your statements, I will try soaking in a 50/50 Alcohol/Soap mixture on my next wet turning. I have just the piece in mind. I think I will also weigh and record as well, Perhaps I will do two identical pieces form the same log and compare the results (more scientific approach)

Also please relate the Ron Kent web site so I might surf there.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Hickory, his home page is http://www.ronkent.com and you'll find descriptions of his LDD methods after scrolling down through his "techniques" link for a while. 'Tis an interesting read.

Interestingly, a google search for "ron kent" has him as the top half-a-dozen hits, which makes it nice and easy to see some of his works. Hefty price tags, too!

As for the microwave method, I've found that if there's a flaw/fracture in the wood nuking it will exacerbate it. As most flaws seem to be in the areas you describe, well... that's why I only use it on pieces that are neither valuable nor irreplacable and basically only when I have no other wood to use. Hence my playing with LDD. :)

[Hickory]

Thanks skew, The man is much like myself in that it takes him a long time to tell a story ;) But quite a story it is. I'm earmarking that discription and plan to try some in the near future. That would be along side the many other things I plan to try in the near future. But for sure I will try it soon as I said before, I have a log I want to grind up and figure this would be a good chance to try.

Also an interesting read about Dry wood turning. I have a big chunk of Black cherry already dry and hard as a brick, Been working me silly to get it turned into a big salad bowl. I had stopped till I can muster up a bowl gouge thinking that would help. I'm going to soak the dry Cherry bowl in soap and see. He says it lubs the turning on dry wood. We'll see...

Thanks again.

[soundman]

Has anyone tried detergent AND microwave?

From what I understand the detergent accelarates and equlaises the moisture flow on the material.
It should therfore allow much more accelarated drying without cracking.

cheers

[tonysa]

here's a couple of links to pdf files you've probably already found that relate to fast drying of wood by means of boiling, microwaving and freezing.

http://www.penturners.org/content/Wood-Drying.pdf
http://www.woodturners.org/tech_tips/misc-pages/boiling.pdf

rec.crafts.woodturning newsgroup appears to be a useful site but I haven't been there myself yet.

[CameronPotter]

It seems that everyone has their favourite way of doing things, and everyone is pretty quick to criticise what they don't use. However, Pentacryl seemed to be a good idea and work VERY quickly. Then Hughie pointed out this site to me and he had used Pentacryl, choked on the price a bit, and found something that worked almost as well. Then while we were discussing it, Hughie suggested using metho or acetone in place of water. It made sense to me and sounded quick so I gave it a go.

It seems to have worked really well, but it may have shrunk the knot in the wood a bit...

As for painting it on, well, that is one way to use Pentacryl, so I thought why not? As for painting it several times, well that was just me being cautious. However, it doesn't get a build up of scum or anything on the wood, it all seems to soak in pretty well, but it may not work on oil resistant woods like eucalyptus...

Any other questions - please ask...

Cam

[hughie]

Hi Cameron,

Nice post! gunna give it a go myself. I usually soak my blanks but if painting on can do it. So be it and sounds easier and hopefully quicker.
For those who have a larger budget than most, food grade glycol works well. But its only here say as I have not tried it myself. $$$$$$$:mad:
The oily type woods might work with Hickory's method of immersion over night in meths [ denatured alcohol ]. See his post
Will give it a go on my camphor blanks shortly

As I understand it the liquid soap is hygroscopic?? and takes up or rapidly displaces the water, much the same way as meths would act or some such similar fluid.
hughie

[CameronPotter]

Yeah, maybe I will try making a metho and detergent bath, but finding a big enough bath that can be sealed (to stop the metho from simply eavporating) might be a bit of a struggle. I have a few ideas though.

But the metho and detergent method seems to work really well for me - doesn't stink (yet) - is super easy to do - is very fast and doesn't seem to have any flaws, but I am not yet confident enough to do it on my best bits of wood. I have a gorgeous bit of myrtle and a huge bit of tiger myrtle that will be seasoned as slowly as possible to keep them from going to pieces... :rolleyes:

Cheers

Cam

[ticklingmedusa]

This is a method a fellow seppo turner from Texas shared with me.
I cannot endorse it from my personal experience because I haven't scored any truly green timber to soak in the bubbly. As soon as do get some wood
I will try it.
Here it is the way I heard it.
tm

use Ivory Concentrated Dish WashING Detergent. Any clear, dish washing
detergent will work. (not dish washER). I mix it 1 part soap with 2 parts
water. I rough-turn to 1/10 of the planned finish diameter, but never to
less than 1/2 inch thickness.
I have found that keeping the turning in the soap solution for at least 7
days is the best. Right now I have about 10 pieces that have been in the
soap for 18 days (because I've been out of pocket over the holiday).
It won't hurt the wood a bit. The discoloring of the wood will disappear
when dry.
The wood will move a little when drying, but shouldn't crack, unless they
were cracked to start with.
I have two 15 gallon plastic tubs with about 12 gal or so. One is for fresh
green blanks that I haven't had a chance to rough-turn yet, and the other is
for those vessels that I've rough-turned. I keep track of the type and
size, wood-type, and date, of vessels in the rough-turn vat. I've been
doing it like this for about three months now, and it works.
I began by only leaving it in the soap for a few hours, to overnight, and
then for 3 days, then 5, and found that it takes longer for thicker
turnings, for the osmotic gradient to take place (the soap replaces the
tree's natural moisture in the cells, so that as it dries, the soap solids
prohibit cell collapse.

[CameronPotter]

Another update.

I got some freshly felled apricot from Shedhand and a rough turned something like a vase (really just a deep steep sided bowl) from it.

It hollowed into the end grain and had the centre of the growth rings somewhere near the base.

I painted on my solution and then wrapped/stuffed the wet bowl with newspaper that was also soaked in the solution.

I wrapped this up in a plastic bag and left it for a week. When I came back, the newspaper was still wet (I am hoping it was the solution, not just excess water). Anyway, the rough had not warped noticeably yet. The was a slight bit of checking at the core of the wood - but that is pretty much expected as it is hard to dry wood like that.

I am now leaving it for a week to dry out and I will let you know how it goes.


I tried this with some myrtle that I rough turned. The final bowl was almost paper thin. It didn't crack, but it has warped a little. Damn! Mind you, I have had myrtle warp even worse for a piece that I was SURE was dry, so maybe it is just the wood or - god forbid - me. :o

Cam

ps The first sassafras piece is still fine.

[rsser]

Standard Myrtle is pretty unstable anything short of EMC.

[CameronPotter]

Can I ask what EMC is?

[Hickory]

Well, I tried it, more of a mess than I had hoped for, I still prefer the Alcohol method, Guess what you are used to..... I'll dance with what brung me...

I have confidence in the results of the way I have been successful, all the same, it was worth a try to see if I liked it better.

Seems so much more simple the way I do it. I turn the piece down to about 1/2" inch thick or less and then soak over night in Denatured Alcohol. Next day I wrap the piece in Brown paper and weigh it. I set it aside for a couple of weeks and it is usually ready when I'm in the mood to finish the job.

[CameronPotter]

Fair enough, but I don't see how it could be a mess? :confused:

Anyway, I get the distinct impression that everyone seems to use different methods. :)

Cam

[hughie]

Hi All,

My two cents worth.

It looks like to me that there is not one method for all timbers.
I get good results on pine with soap a la Ron Kent.
I have had good success with denatured Alcohol[meths] on Camphor Laurel courtesy Hickory, thanks for the tip.
Some success with Eucalypt burl with soap.
And no real success with redgum with anything so far. :(
Myrtle is still soaking in the soap, will be trying alcohol method on the next piece of myrtle.

It seems the dense timber will take along time with soap, maybe as long as it takes to dry naturally :D
Pine, and soft timbers soak up the soap well. Meths goes right in rapidly and I tried micro waving the after soaking in meths the next day it worked fine. Other than it moved alot, this was more to do with the way it was cut from the log rather than anything else I suspect.
Cameron I have yet to try your mix. When I get a biggish container with a decent lid will give it a go.
hughie

[CameronPotter]

Good ideas Hughie.

The reason I like the idea of meths and soap is that it is combining two methods, but isn't really any harder/messier than either.

I haven't tried microwaving it, but I am a bit scared of stinking up the microwave and I don't like the idea of massively warping bits of wood.

Cam

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Can I ask what EMC is?

I think = "Equilibrium Moisture Content." When the MC of wood matches the average humidity of the atmosphere it's in. ie. The wood has been "properly" dried.

I've gotta agree with Hughie about different methods/timbers... some redgums & LDD just don't seem to agree. River Red Gum, on the other hands, works like a charm with LDD. Meths & Camphor Laurel, eh? That'll be my next trial, methinks. I'd rather avoid soap 'cos I want maximum scent, so don't want to break down the oils more than necessary. Thanks for the idea Hughie (and Hickory)

[CameronPotter]

Ahhhh. Thanks Skew and the idea of meths to avoid breaking down the oils is a good point. I hadn't even thought about that! Mind you, we don't get campor laurel down here, but on the other hand maybe it might be worth remembering with regards to huon, although I find huon to be a bit of a plain wood.

[Toymaker Len]

Looks like Ron Kent may be specialising in spalted Norfolk Island Pine... Wonder where he gets it from.

[La truciolara]

Cameron
I'll certainly use your unusual and unheard of technique. It ha the advantage of being very simple and cheep. (I have not yet a micro wave even if this method seems to be used quite often).
In any case the results on your vase are splendid.
I’m sure the Italians are going to love it. ;) <O:p</O:p

[hughie]

Looks like Ron Kent may be specializing in spalted Norfolk Island Pine... Wonder where he gets it from.

Len, Ron Kent gets locally in Hawaii from the local tree loppers. It grows wild there and I gather is a native to the island. Dunno how it ended up as Norfolk if its from Hawaii. Turns it as he gets it, the same day, very green timber, he talks about wearing a rain coat whilst turning.

hughie

[Gil Jones]

Try this thought:::If you soak a chunk in DNA (meths), and then microwave it, the heat buildup will evaporate the DNA. With a heavy concentration of DNA fumes in the microwave all you need is one tiny spark (or an ember from overcooked wood). Could be an exciting way to disassemble the microwave. I know there is a fan that exhausts the microwave, but it still makes me consider explosions or fire with the alcohol fumes. Does anyone have :confused: another thought on this idea??

[Hickory]

Len, Ron Kent gets locally in Hawaii from the local tree loppers. It grows wild there and I gather is a native to the island. Dunno how it ended up as Norfolk if its from Hawaii.

Way I hear the story is that English Sea Captains used to plant seedlings where ever they went so that there would always be repair masts in the future. Trees took to the climate and soil so well that they created a forrest on Maui. Chinese brought in Bamboo to build with as it was their usual choice and it also took to the climate well. When I was there I took to the climate well also but, alas, I had to return to my little piece of heaven.

[CameronPotter]

Cameron
I'll certainly use your unusual and unheard of technique. It ha the advantage of being very simple and cheep. (I have not yet a micro wave even if this method seems to be used quite often).
In any case the results on your vase are splendid.
I’m sure the Italians are going to love it. ;) <O:p</O:p

Let us know how you go (also this is not exactly my method... :) ) Hughie put me onto the Ron Kent website and I can't remember which of us first thought of using metho and the detergent, but it seems to work.

Also, I rechecked the myrtle bowl (that I turned very thin). It is actually only just out of shape. I was a bit hard on myself I think. You need a circle template to tell it is mishapen really.

As for Gil's thoughts on microwaving metho/acetone, let's say I would be willing to try it out. :cool:

Cam

[hughie]

Try this thought:::If you soak a chunk in DNA (meths), and then microwave it, the heat buildup will evaporate the DNA. With a heavy concentration of DNA fumes in the microwave all you need is one tiny spark (or an ember from overcooked wood). Could be an exciting way to disassemble the microwave. I know there is a fan that exhausts the microwave, but it still makes me consider explosions or fire with the alcohol fumes. Does anyone have :confused: another thought on this idea??

Gil. I had not thought of that, just went on my merry way micro waving the meths soaked timber. If the concetrations get high enough - KFB.
If you look at the magnotron or what ever its called it glows red hot!:eek:

Might have to rethink this one.:D
hughie

[Gil Jones]

Cam and Hughie, I seriously hope that no one has to scrape y'all off some wall.
Anyway, good luck!!

[CameronPotter]

Arrghh. I missed the word not in my previous post... :mad: :o

I meant I would NOT be willing to try it out. :eek:

I am completely staying away from the micro method for now - I haven't tried it and I don't think that I will in the near future (but especially not for metho soaked wood).

Cam

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I wouldn't bother nuking "treated" woods anyway. Nukes are an all or nothing thing, pre-treating with metho, LDD or whatever would be a waste of time and resources IMHO.

I only nuke sample timbers, when I get a new batch. It gives me an idea of what the grain pattern are like... but from there I usually air-dry the rest. The only reason I'm LDD'ing is sheer impatience... all these tons of wood in storage and nothing fit to turn. [sigh]

[cedar n silky]

From memory, Ron Kent says his LDD treated wood turns as though 'twas green, (ie. very easily) often spraying everywhere, but simply doesn't crack like normal greens when drying. Would you say this applies to your method? From "obviously dry" I gather it didn't spray, but did it turn as easily as green wood?

'Tis just my curiosity asking... I'm undecided about trying your method as spraying the blanks several times a day is too much work for this li'l black duck. Methinks I'd rather stick to my microwaving technique; 'tis much quicker (a couple of hours all up!) and I don't have to remember to keep doing things. :rolleyes:

Could you give us an idea of your micro waving, or nuking (as you call it) methods? I inherited a mint Sharp nuker, a big old unit, and I have just the spot in the workshop for it!
Can you nuke a pie and a piece of wood at the same time!!:p
Thanks for alll your wisdom so far.
Cheers:D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Could you give us an idea of your micro waving, or nuking (as you call it) methods? I inherited a mint Sharp nuker, a big old unit, and I have just the spot in the workshop for it!

That should be perfect for the job. My method's in http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=20580 ...3rd post, I think.


Can you nuke a pie and a piece of wood at the same time!!:p

Actually, you can. :o Just DON'T put it in the same bag as the wood! :eek::D:D

[cedar n silky]

Thanks skew!! Did a search, but my line speed is mighty slow up this neck of the woods, so I thought- Just ask!
Much appreciated.
Cheers:)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

One thing I didn't mention in that post is that microwaves vary, woods vary and people vary. So the timings'll differ too.

The wood should be hot when removed but not too hot to handle and should be allowed to cool to room temp between sessions. When nuking, it should be steaming but NOT hissing, cracking or spitting. The idea's to dry it, not reduce it to splinters.

You have the microwave, you have the wood. Now you just need the time to play and see what works for you. ;)