Lugger plans

[richardm]

I'm looking for plans for a pearling lugger, as used in Broome, Western Australia in the early 1900's. Any idea where I might start looking Thanks

[Daddles]

Get a PM off to Wild Dingo (here on the fourum). Shane. He's been salivating about pearling luggers for donkey's years.

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

Get a PM off to Wild Dingo (here on the fourum). Shane. He's been salivating about pearling luggers for donkey's years.

Richard

salivating indeed Richard!! :eek: Not I he cried ;) :p

Rightio then... first up I see your in Broome so get onto the West Australian Maritime Museum in Freo and ask them if the plans for Trixen are available... Trixen is the one they have restored and resides in centre place at the museum... as far as Im aware they maybe but dont know how much you would pay but the ones Ive had have no offsets just a sheet of the sail plan and another of the building arrangement... ooh clarity here I did not get mine from the museum... zar ar many vays to skin ze cat non? ;)

Scondly... go to woodenboat.com and put up a post asking for the same info specifially ask for TonyH to respond... I probably will but dont mind me its Tony you want... hes in Sydney and into EVERYTHING Luggar related was involved in the most recent book on the subject and the redoing of the plans for Redbill for the book... it may take him a bit of time to respond busy as a bee stingin yer bum is young Tony but persist and you will be rewarded with a bloke with more knowledge than Einstien had hairs standing up on his noggin :cool:

Thirdly... since your in Broome and I know theres a couple up there (have two sisters who live there) why not get onto the owners and see if they would let you take the lines and offsets while shes on the slip for routine maintenance? They at least may be able to point you in the right directions and may well even have some plans of their own you could copy... worth an ask anyway

Fourthly... a wee note on these boats... the majority of them did not have plans as such but were built by eye and from half models created from other luggars... the boatbuilders of these workboats (as you know they were workboats back then and not the tourist boats of today) they made them not to flash or to a fine degree so much was hit and miss... but mostly they created them from half models firstly then from eye from there on so plans are very rare as are the original half models... I know that when they decided to restore Trixen for the museum they had to first take the lines and offsets from the original boat so they had a starting point from which to work... actually come to think on it if memory serves they actually rebuilt Trixen better check that my memories a real sod most days :rolleyes:

Fifth... These boats as you would be aware were build like the proverbial brick dunny shytehouse... huge massive timber keels frames and deadwood 12in x 1 - 1 1/2in wide planks huge knees and carlins... you plannin on building one? If so theres a bloke in Freo that sells the massive great Karri and Jarrah timbers from the old wool stores that I may be able to put you onto... mmm if I can ever remember where I put all that info that is... mmm if it survived the flood of 18 May 2005 that is... have to check that!!

Sixth... and I promise the final... So many luggars were discarded and left to rot or were scuttled as the Pearling industry moved on and these boats became redundant... not too many sygnificant Luggars remain although a couple have been recently restored over east... anyway theres one in Mandurah that I can direct you to... if you want to cry your eyes out that is... however... you could if your keen enough still take the lines of her and then once done smooth them out by laying them out... shes called Buccealeach or B6 once the pride of the Broome fleet now owned by a dipstick shytehead who bought her to restore and keep and who has first started doing some much needed maintenance to her then decided that it was all just too hard then did buggar all maintenance for well over 5 years... this after her being in good nick enough for him to sail her down from Broome to Mandurah... then when she burst her planks and sank left her at the bottom of Dolphin Pool for a further 5 years and then when the water ways mob decreed her a danger to other boats fined him heavily and made him salvage and remove her from the water wherein the dopey dropkick took her to a bush paddock out the back of Mandurah and just dumped her there where she still sits rotting her guts out to this day

But... if you were serious enough and determined enough you could get a rough set of lines and offsets from her remains well enough to start to proceed to drawing them up and fairing them in last time I visited her about a year ago you could if you were extra careful still get inside her to do so... and you could definantly do so if you have laser levels and such... you could also get enough info on the sizings of the timbers and other things to give you an idea of what you need... I gave up it was just way to sad an experience to hadle but I do have an imagestation album dedicated to her

man just writing this reminds me of another thread!! :rolleyes:

If you still have problems then send me an email and I will put you onto Tony directly.

Me? Slaviting what is that anyway? ooh right you mean Salivitating eh? and you an author Richard :eek: :D... but I dont salivitate over Luggars mate.. I have an affliction its a disease you see called Luggaritis Extraudinairious theres no cure for it... and symptoms include uncontrolled liquid excresion from the gob bulging eyes frothing at the mouth and terrible tremors or the extremities... I will thank you to keep your discriminatory comments about my affliction to yourself young fella!!! or in the words of the immortal Aunty Jack "I will rip yer bloody arms orf and hit yer over the head with the soggy end" so there!! :p

Good luck with it Richard :cool:

[onthebeachalone]

I'm looking for plans for a pearling lugger, as used in Broome, Western Australia in the early 1900's. Any idea where I might start looking Thanks
Can't help with plans,but there is a pearling lugger in the Queensland Maritime Museum. Would some photographs of be of any use?

It's big. Taking lines off would be a major task.

[Wild Dingo]

They have on in the Brissy Mueseum too? Excellent!! beautiful boats for sure and its great that the museums are onto that fact :cool:

It is a big job they averaged around 50ft LOA and 13 or so feet beam... but theyre not altogether that high as in draft when standing alongside them all bilge for the cargo see?... so although a major undertaking to take the lines off if one was persistant and determined not impossible you would agree eh!... Ive often thought of buying a couple of good quality laser levels and going back to B6 and taking her lines off... from outside!

ooh and your pics would be appreciated thanks!! :cool:

[richardm]

Thanks for the quick reply Shane, I missed a word in the original query, It's actually a scale model that I want to build using frames and planks-I'm feeling like two short ones at the moment Richard

[Wild Dingo]

aahh so... now that may or may not make the hunt easier depending on how anul you choose to be ;)

Other than the above... you could... as I said get onto one of the local owners and see if they will allow you to take some FEW measurements off her... you wouldnt need a total lines or the total offsets just the main ones... okay so what ones will you need?

I would go the length and beam first... thats both Length Over All and Length On Deck (LOA includes the bow sprit) rather easy if you have a boat in front of you ala seeking out owners.. Then the stem and keel timber sizes (note here from outside you will only get the width of the timbers to the rabbet as the rest of the deadwood is inside the boat) as theyre your main basis to start from... everything progresses from these numbers get these and you have a starting point from there I would

Go to the transom area and get that turn its a buggar but its the unique shape you need so get the numbers from the deadwood right up there at the sheerplank... one way to get this is to take your keel length right the way to the end of the transom this will mean standing a straightedge down from the transom to the ground meeting the straight edge youve run from the end of the keel... take the measurement back from this point to the end of the keel... this will give you the angle you need for the transom area... Id love to be able to say this is easy but its not its a buggar it would be easier if the transom at the sheer ran in a direct line to the keel but it doesnt and the ones Ive seen show that you cant even rely on running that straightedge from the transom at the sheerplank to the rudder then to the keel as the keel is also offset inside the angle you need to find (is that understandable?)

Then I would take some measurements at various sections of the hull... 50ft luggar the least I would take is one every 10ft and even this isnt enough as you need to capture the measurements at the stem through the turn in the bilge to the bilge to the turn in the transom area also the measurements at the keel of these same places... but this should give you a very basic outline of the hull shape at various points along the length of her

Then draw in the house deck and mast locations you can do this from the markings youve already made

I wont go into getting the diagonals!! :eek: although with working the lines and getting a few of the most important numbers for the bilge itself the stem and stern you will find it of itself... get a feel for the boat as you draw it out even if you have to redraw it a hundred times it will suddenly be there

Take copious photos marking with little yellow postit notes the corresponding locations to points youve notated these will help you no end

Then take it all home and rough it out lay down the lines from the numbers... again as I said it will depend on how anul you want to be... if only an exact scale model will do hunt up the plans its the only way you will get it... if close enough is good enough then this will do it for you... in your laying down you will see where your numbers may be out by a few 8ths or so dont sweat it just curve to the right place you will see it when she smooths out.

You will find when your making the scale model that the turn in the bilge is easy compared to the turn in the transom... be aware of this if need be bulk up the planking in this area or do as they did back then butt smaller planks to the long planks as you come around join behind the butts with another peice of timber as thick as the timber used and overlapping some inches this to copy what was done back then before scarfing with poxy and googe came in...

How do I know this? experience building a scale model of Trixen!! Oh and another thing? when its done put it up higher than your eldest kid can reach!! Cause the blighters will get it down and will take it out sailing and if theyre like my pack of hoons will decide that there are pirates in that thar waters and well... they have a hoot of a time... sigh even when the garboards pop and she lists to port even when the masts crack and tumble coverin the finely done decks in rigging and sails... sigh even when she starts to rapidly go down they will be laughing hysterically like a bunch of demented chooks at a barbie!!... sigh

What are you planning on making her from please dont say balsa!! Your in for a friggin nightmare if you do!! well I did have nightmares due to that stuff uggh never again will I use balsa for a scale model :(

Finally Richard me ol mate up there in Broome if your gonna send me an email from here you best change your own settings so I can respond in kind... youve made your settings so I cant email you back... otherwise pm me! easy as!! :cool: still Im open to responding as much as possible on the thread since there may be others who also love the old girls (these taking of lines and such could relate to any boat rather than just the luggars in question by the by ;) ) who may be interested in what were yarnin about

Note here!!! I am not an expert nor am I a professional and I dont profess to know everything and hopefully dont come accross that way... I just know a few things and am willing to share what I do know and am happily content enough to learn new ways to do the things I think I may know... or at least try them to see if it does make something easier better or quicker... but I dont know everything and I do know theres others here who make scale models who I would also appreciate input from!! So if Im wrong here please step up and correct me or offer up your own experiences knowledge and whatever!!

[TK1]

Hi Richard.

The Aust National Maritime Museum in Sydney has a Broome Pearling Lugger in their floating collection. Details are:

"John Louis [name of vessel]
This pearling lugger comes from Broome, Australia's original multicultural society with its mixed population of Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, Asians and Europeans - all engaged at one time in the colourful and hazardous pearl shell industry.
A fleet of unique, ketch-rigged craft evolved and worked until recent times, making them this country's last commercial sailing craft. John Louis was acquired in 1987 at the end of a 30-year working life. Built as a flush-deck craft in the 1950s, the raised foredeck and pilot house were added later and reflect changes in diving technology and crew conditions during the course of her working life.
Length: 15.64 m overall
Beam: 44.39 m
Draft: 1.73 m
Tonnage: 34.45 gross tones, 22.79 nett tones
Sail: Auxiliary ketch, area 58.3 m2
Propulsion: Volvo MD50A diesel, 126 kW
Construction: Carvel on sawn frames"

The people in the library there are very helpful (expecially if a donation is made in return for help!) and have plans for many of their vessels, as well as others. I have built a model of the Krait with their help, and am bulding the MB 172 motor launch now...they were helpful with plans for the latter 9had to draw my own for the Krait) as well as pics, history and allowing me to get on board to take photos. If they have plans for the John Louis or other luggers, they will let you know as well as the cost to copy and post them to you. Just go to www.anmm.gov.au and follw the research and library links.

As another option, there is a gent in WA called Brian Lemon who made a model of the pearling lugger 'Sam Male' - featured in issue 116 of 'Model Shipwright' quarterly - looks great and he may have plans of the original, which I believe is sitting in a park somewhere in WA. Let me know if you want more info, the article probably has the location of it and where he got the plans from (I cna send you a photocopy of the article if of interest).

Good luck with it in any case - be a great boat to build and explore the coast in!

Regards,
Darren

[TK1]

Hi (again) Richard...

I missed the post saying it was a scale model too...so you won't be sailing it around WA!

PM me with your post details and I can send you a copy of Brian's article on building the model. Then he or the WA or ANMM should be able to provide plans.

Regards,
Darren

[Wild Dingo]

Good on yer Darren! :cool:

The Sam Male I believe is still in Broome... it was sitting in a park in the middle of Broome back in the 80s when I was there but Richard can better tell its location

mmmm did you get the info on her beam wrong mate?

Beam: 44.39 m

44.39 metres!!! BEAM??? WOW!!! Never seen a luggar THAT wide!!! :eek:

Said with a smile mate said with a smile ;) And thanks for the info and link through :cool:

[TK1]

Hi Dingo,

A cut and paste straight off the ANMM website, and I didn't read the details...damn wide boat, wouldn't roll much but you'd need a decent motor to push her through the seas!

I think they put an extra "4" in there...will mention it to them next time I''m in touch.

Well spotted!

Regards,
Darren

[Wild Dingo]

Well spotted!

Regards,
Darren


aahhh sometimes I plan for it and at other times it just happens! ;) I must away and have a gander around their site maybe send an email who knows!! :cool: I wonder if they have pics of the boats in their collections on their site? ooh I could be there for some time if they do!! ;)

[TK1]

Shane (and apologies to Richard for hijacking the thread!),

The ANMM has some good pics of their fleet of boats on their site. Have a look also at www.australianheritagefleet.com.au - lots of great boats (and ships) in their collection, and decent pics on the website.

Staff/volunteers at both places are mightily friendly, so if you can get to Sydney ensure you visit. The library is great too, and as mentioned the staff are extremely helpful and respond to emails and faxes quickly. They haven't let me down yet!

Enjoy the web surfing and associated drooling...

Regards,
Darren

[onthebeachalone]

Ive often thought of buying a couple of good quality laser levels and going back to B6 and taking her lines off... from outside!
I've often wondered about that. How would you tackle it with laser levels?

Perhaps that should be a new thread??


ooh and your pics would be appreciated thanks!! :cool:
The only picture I have is off the Maritime Museum web-site.


I was actually suggesting that if Richard wanted some photos I could call in there and snap some from different angles.

Also, just heard of another acquaintance who "made a half model of a Pearling Lugger", so that might be another source of useable offsets.

[Boatmik]

Good on yer Darren! :cool:

The Sam Male I believe is still in Broome... it was sitting in a park in the middle of Broome back in the 80s when I was there but Richard can better tell its location

mmmm did you get the info on her beam wrong mate?


44.39 metres!!! BEAM??? WOW!!! Never seen a luggar THAT wide!!! :eek:

Said with a smile mate said with a smile ;) And thanks for the info and link through :cool:
Yep,

The stats are right

She is a representative of a Sydney Pearling lugger.

Most of the pearl action in the 1880s to 1930s was based around Broome and other tropical areas. It was only belatedly realised that in deeper water off the NSW and Victorian coasts that there was an unexploited resource of quality pearl oysters - a larger variety of Pictada Radiata (which before had only been noted as a commercial resource in the Middle east where it is known as the Gulf Pearl Oyster.

Because of the greater depths, greater distances to the fishery from the commercial ports it was woth building much larger mother ships than up North. The other reason was that the actual pearl diving was done with a diving bell type apparatus to prevent the direct pressure of deeper water on the diver with the normal diving suit/weighted shoes and helmet setup current at the time. The bell also allowed a team of up to three divers to work in concert within a single bell - so instead of bringing the bulky oysters back up to the surface there was a team to prise open the oysters and just take the pearls up to the surface. It was actually quite an eco friendly operation as the oysters went back close to the area in which they were picked up.

This bell apparatus was necessarily heavy and the early boats had problems with stability when pulling the bell up over the side. They could do it in calm water, but with the touchy weather and wind against the set (ie current) conditions of the NSW and northern Vic coasts generating nasty sea conditions when the winds had any southerly component it was often impossible to actually do the final heave to get the bell back inboard. So the narrower boats often had to cut the bell free - AFTER the divers had swum back to the mother vessel

A simple solution was to build much wider boats than have been seen since and simply bring the bell back into a well in the middle of the boat. A similar structure to a Wet Well in a trawler.

Sadly it was a similar problem as with the Orange Roughie - no one realised that the oysters at these depths and with the cooler water took centuries rather than decades to lay down a pearl with the end result that the originally promising fishery was economically unviable after a few (very lucerative) years.

Anyway, the "Male" family were involved in the coal mining in the area immediately to the south of Sydney (Coalcliff etc) and made their fortune when transport and industry ran on anthracite. They got into the pearl business right at the beginning as a way of diversifying their income. They built one of the first "big beam" pearlers but when the bottom fell out of the market they had to make a tough decision.

One of the watch captains on the first "Sam Male" had worked his way up from deckhand - Hu-xien "David" Zhao - originally of one of the established Sydney Chinese commumity. He had originally been involved in the hazardous diving, but when dysbaric osteonecrosis (a long term diver's disease) caught up with him he proved too knowledgeable to lay off so had the opportunity to get first his coxswains and then master's ticket. He was one of the first of the chinese community to gain this qualification - more valuable in that day than now.

He suggested that they move business over to Broome so something could be salvaged from the capital expenditure involved in the boat. At that stage the Broome Industry was mostly run by European background owners using Asian labour (the Japanese were not to acheive their dominance of the industry for another 40 years). Hu-xien was one of the first people of Asian background to be managing one of the fleets.

That however was the end of the big beam pearlers which just were not fast enough to be viable in tropical waters and were subject to marine borer attack in the tropics as they had not been built to take that into account.

So the end of a fishery - end of another type of boat designed for a specific use - another bit of history gone forever.

Iron men in woollen slips

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Mik mate I gotta disagree theres simply no way any boat would be built with any expectation on sailing ANYWHERE if its LOA is 15+ mtrs and its beam 44+ mtrs!! Just cant happen! Thats a bloody great rectangle no way they could put curves and diagonals into something shaped as that suggests!! I would suggest as our mate Darren up there suggests an additional 4 was put in there by mistook!... 44 mtrs beam boggles the mind :eek:

[TK1]

Hi Shane,

MIK may be right, I've just found this pic of the fabled "Sydney Lugger" - or the "Fat a** boat" as they were known.

The blokes in Sydney, having graduated form the Ikea School of Assembly, didn't read the plans properly and confused the lOA and beam measurements...

They were very stable going across the swell up and down the coast, but unfortunately many were lost coming in through the Heads when a freak 1m wave hit the transom and flipped them.

All in good fun :D

Darren

[Daddles]

I might be wrong Darren, but didn't you just make that up?

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

Nah Richard didnt you look at that pic? :eek: flamin big buggars them Sydney luggars!! ;)

[TK1]

Guess I can't get anything past people here...worth at try though! :D

Happy boating.

Darren

[Boatmik]

All that painstaking research and you guys just won't take it seriously.

Talk about Pearls before Swine.

____________________________

There - it was a rotten job but someone had to do it!

But seriously with all the cool technical terms and general cross cultural cross references it is definitely going to be catalogued by Google and people will be quoting it all for years.

I hope some poor sod or sodette doesn't fail their year 8 social science assignment.

[Tony Hunt]

Hello folks

I came across this thread by accident, but here I am so I thought I'd better dive in. As Wild Dingo says, I've spent a fair bit of time scratching the pearling lugger itch over the years (thanks! for that kind intro, mate). I must say it's been a lot of fun and one of the many benefits has been a face-to-face meeting with the legendary Dingo himself. So far the only downside has been a lot of sandfly bites while taking lines off in boats in tropical mangrove harbours.

Richard, I also started out wanting to build a model of a lugger, so let this be a cautionary tale. I quickly found that there were no published plans of named luggers (although there are a couple of lines drawings of un-named and somewhat atypical luggers in the chapter on pearling luggers in Gary Kerr's excellent book "Craft & Craftsmen of Australian Fishing"). About the same time I met a very nice gent named Len Lloyd in the UK, who had researched and written a book about a similar-sized British fishing boat type, the Lancashire Nobby. He inspired me to try to do the same with Pearling Luggers. Over a decade later, it's still a work in progress!

I started chasing down the remaining luggers and taking the lines off them. I've done this for five so far, and have a as many more "targets" I'd love to get to on day. The five are Vivienne (in a Museum in Darwin), Floria (being rebuilt in Townsville after sinking in Cairns), Torres Pearl (now in Tassie I believe), Redbill (destroyed in a cyclone in Broome) and Galton (afloat in Cairns). Taking the lines off is fairly easy once you've got the technique worked out and generally takes me a couple of days work - turning it into a decent set of drawings is another matter entirely, I find it very time-consuming indeed. I've also acquired a really good set of plans for Trixen (referred to by Dingo). The main davantage of laser levels is to strike nice straight lines on aa curved surface. I've not used one (yet!) but if you've tried doing it with strings, plumbobs, brickies levels etc the advantages a laser would have are immediately apparent.

All up there are probably a two or three dozen luggers still in existence, some more original than others and some in better nick than others. They fall into two main categories - Thursday Island (TI) luggers and Broome luggers, and age groups:

Pre-WW1 Broome luggers (Rose F is the only example I know of, still afloat in Bunbury).
Interwar Broome luggers (a few left, eg. Trixen)
Postwar Broome luggers (most numerous, several in Museums eg. John Louis, Same Male)
Pre-WW2 TI luggers (a handful left)
Post-war TI luggers (not many built but most still around)
Experimental luggers eg HBThe easiest way to get a set of pans would be to buy a copy of Kate Lance's book "Redbill" (http://www.lancewood.net/redbill/index.html). Not only is it a wonderfully readable book but it contains a really good collection of photos of Redbill (a clipper-bowed interwar Broome lugger) throughout her long and colourful history and also has a set of plans for her at the back, drawn by yours truly, that should suffice for a model. No-one has built one yet, as far as I know, so the challenge is there!

Anyway, good luck with the project!

Cheers

Tony

[Boatmik]

Hi Tony,

Thanks hugely for the post and even more hugely for your efforts in protecting the information about these boats.

Just fantastic - off your own bat. These are the sort of things that keep the world working.

You never know - Dingo might be contacting you for the information to build a model - er a 1:1 model that is - of one of the luggers.

Thanks again

Michael.

[Tony Hunt]

Thanks Michael, you're too kind. It's been a heap of fun really and I've met a load of really nice, interesting people. I heartily recommend quixotic projects as excellent therapy. Sadly, the pace has slowed in the last couple of years (young family plus demanding corporate job = no time for such things). Nevertheless, the flame still burns and "one of these days" I'm going to finish the job I started - the ultimate goal would be to write (or perhaps co-write) a book on the pearling luggers, complete with a decent collection of plans. I figure I need to survey about five or six more luggers to achieve this. High on the "to do" list are Rose F, Tribal Warrior, Grafton (does anyone know where she is - last seen in Cairns/Port Douglas area), Ida Lloyd, Intombi and Ruby Charlotte.

[Wild Dingo]

TONY!!!! good to see you old mate :cool: Far too long between yarns old friend... say hi to the missus and nipperoos from this mob

Tribal Warrior that was the one the Aboriginals got hold of as a sail training boat wasnt it? Did a trip around Aus not that long ago? If memory serves they were headed back your way a couple of years back... missed them in Mandurah and Bunbury by a gnats phart if my memorys workin which is typical me eh! :o ;)

RoseF is still down there in the harbor same place as when I sent those pics over a fair while back... must be someone sorta havin a casual lookafter of the old girl although its getting very hapazard nowadays I reckon... as the undergrowth is gettin longer and the guano on deck is deeper while the riggins gettin slacker... its beginin to look a tad rundown... will try to get some pics while Im recouperating mate and send em over... gotta try to figure out who owns her nowadays and give em a hoi eh? be COOL to have a sail on her!! :p :D

HEY!! Im gonna show my REALL embarrassed side now mate :o ... you didnt happen by any chance in a million kinda sorta maybe kept a copy of those offsets you sent me did yer? I mean you didnt send the only copy back did you? No I know you wouldnt do that Tony me ol cobber me mate!! Anyways as weve established that you saved a copy for your own files can I ask you to forward me a copy of the copy? I seem to have... ahem... eeerrr... uuummmm... cough cough... slightly just slightly... sorta kinda... misplaced mine :o

[Tony Hunt]

Hi Shane

Greetings to you too mate. I hope you're well and all the mob are too.

Yes, Tribal Warrior did the circumnav a couple of years ago, I got on board her (with Kate Lance) just as she arrived back here in Sydney. They had a great time by all accounts. I regularly see her out the office window as she tootles around Sydney Harbour (they charter her out for harbour cruises -see www.tribalwarrior.org (http://www.tribalwarrior.org)) but have never got around to organising measuring her. Rarely get a minute to scratch myself these days!

I'm glad to hear Rose F is still there afloat and well, but concerned to hear that she's looking run down. That's how Buccleuch started on the road to where she is today. If you can ask around and get in contact with her owner I'd certainly appreciate it, I would gladly make the trek over there to measure her up if we could get her onto a slip.

Re the offsets, I've got a nasty feeling I might have sent you the originals......however, I'll dig through the files and check.

Cheers

Tony

[Wild Dingo]

No worries Tony... will make a few enquiries about RoseF see what we can find out/do ;) Who knows he may just be crook or something and well things slide a tad when that happens... maybe he wouldnt mind a set of lines himself? anyway will check it out see what I can source around the traps

As to the offsets... ah well theyre here somewhere!! just gotta bloody well find em amidst all my bits and bobs!! I probably put them somewhere for safe keeping... tend to do that... then promptly forget where I put them!

Will let you know how I get on :cool:

[Tony Hunt]

Hi Shane, good news. I was digging through some boxes of paper over the weekend and found not only a copy of the offsets but also your original drawings too. So both will be winging their way to you shortly. But note: this time I'm sending the originals (I need to reduce the amount of stuff clogging up the house:rolleyes: ) so don't lose them:D !

Cheers

Tony

[Wild Dingo]

Thats all I can say mate... a true bloody legend
Cheers :cool:

[Boatmik]

Hi Guys,

Perhaps one of you should photocopy the info you have and send it do David Payne at the Sydney National Maritime Museum where he is setting up a database of historic vessels. That way your material will be protected forever.

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

ROFLMAO!!! :D :D :D Send my re-draw of Trixen to David to be kept for prosterity?? :D :D :D :D gawd Mik thats good!! Man first real laugh Ive had all day brilliant!! ;)

Mate Im a total novice at drawing plans... this was simply an experiement cause I was informed by someone that without qualifications from MIT or some other Naval Design place it wouldnt be possible! It also gave me invaluable insight into the amount of work involved with drawing a boat getting the offsets right the diagonals the buttocks futtocks keel waterlines etc etc etc to say nothing about shape size of timbers needed locations of masts etc... took friggin months to get them to where I got them... One tends not to realize or even consider the amount of work thats involved in designing a boat I never did till I did this one and by gawd it was a hell of an eyeopener I can tell you!... funny thing was I then gave them to Tony without a second thought!! :eek: didnt keep a copy nothing! :o... See when I met Tony him and I had had a quite a few long yarns via email about luggars and although Im a bit of a luggar nut hes worse!! :p and hes a bloody nice bloke to go with it and as we were considering moving I really didnt know what I was upto at the time I figured in my way that he would enjoy them... give him a giggle you know?! ;) bet it worked a treat too! ...ah well at least theyre coming home :cool:

I did email David several times when I was at the keel weight stage and it was through his comments that we figured the keel weight out... I guess I wanted help from him for free ;) but although he didnt comment greatly he did comment that the cost for him to do them "properly" would be quite high but gave me approximations of weight for the keel and possible locations and distribution (ie: 500lb lead keel and 3 - 400lb in ingots in the bilge} which I must admit he had no reason to do and it was greatly appreciated... but I never contnued with it since the cost as he said would be exhorbitant given that there is such a large plethoria of designs out there already created at reasonable cost

Actually with their return Im hoping to somehow get them into the program FreeShip to "prove" them before I tackle another model... I guess in the back of my mind in some weird corner of my heart I hope theyre doable into an actual boat... but thats some way off just a sparkle of a thought to create and design a boat to build you know? weird eh!... well although she was drawn using the drawings of Trixen as a basis and other infor Id gathered (admittedly mainly from Tony :o )the shrinking of them to 26ft LOD x 8ft BOD was all my disast... eerr work! :cool:

Theres still masses of work... for instance I have to work out what size timbers to use I mean I dont want to overbuild her nor underbuild her so ive got to work those figures out... Im pretty sure when i get them back and start work on them again I will muddle them out.

I have inserted the only set of offsets I have found of her into FreeShip (an old set Id started with) and the resuls have been quite encouraging... bloody encouraging in fact! ;) but Im not real crash hot with programs like that bloody confusing for the most part but once I get back to the mine I will have some time after shift to muck with it... hopefully it will come together... then a true scale model and we will see...

Mik when we had the flood last year I lost pretty much all my plans including Trixen Iain Oughtreds Grey Seal Wharrams Tiki38 Crowninsheilds Fame and Dark Harbor a couple of old desigsn of powerboats Al Masons Sorkust along with many many others... the only two Ive managed to get back was through some serious pleading to Michael Mason in Nova Scotia for Elly (130+ year old Swedish Koster still sailing) and Fame from Thadd Danielson in Boston without the offsets which is a shame but well... thats it... and her bloody highness has dictated that I can only spend $1000 on plans from here on no more... so I cant afford to replace them and must make a definant choice... yeah yeah I know I said Davids Paketi was the one... but :o Its just SO FRIGGIN confusing!!! Im now undecided once again so am not commiting to any design as yet

See I still REALLY like Bolgers St Valery (a luggar) and I also REALLY like GlenLs Noyo Trawler but then I also REALLy like Wallers Trailer cat and theres also Wharrams Tiki26 thats a real possibility (read a mates got some plans I can have at a better than excellent price!) and then theres... so Ive pulled up again! Till I do something cause with only $1000 to spend on plans Im looking at maybe 2 sets thats it!! :eek: I dont know how Im gonna handle that :rolleyes:

I think Tony has masses of info that hes hoarding about luggars (as I said hes a total luggar nut whereas Im only a learner by comparison! :D ) but somehow I think hes still using it!! Mind here hes a damn fine drawer of luggars his drawings of Redbill look right smart! :cool:

Actually without knowing it hes been my greatest supporter through all the years of muddleing around with designs and choices... the young buggar kept sending me reams of scans of plans from Rudder MotorBoating and other old defunct magazines!!! Talk about inspiration!!! :cool: or maybe contributing to my confusion :D

But send my wee efforts to a museum!! HAHAHHAHA ooh gawd that was EXCELLENT!! Cheers mate! :D

Actually Im wondering if Tony ever created anything with the wee blocks of Sheoak and Tuart I gave him to take back with him... forgot to ask ah well hopefully hes made something that will sweeten his life and his comfort with the missus always good to make them something every now and then keeps em smiling ;) :cool:

[Boatmik]

I'm glad you had a laugh! The best medicine they say.

But seriously - think about it - the offsets you have taken are one of two records of that boat.

And one of them is the boat itself - and as we know it is in a parlous state.

Your offsets are hugely historically valuable - and it looks like we might have almost lost them.

Now quite your bickering and next time you go to town take a photocopy - just the offsets and maybe a sketch showing the layout of the measurements - not all the points - just the section positions and where you took the centreline offsets from - AND SEND IT TO THE BLOODY MUSEUM LIKE I SAID.

Museums collect all sorts of stuff - and no-one knows the use of it until someone else wants it down the line.

So Dingo - it is good to be laughing - but at the same time send off the photocopies.

The information is too precious to risk losing - as it almost was.

Just add a cover note too as to what you think the strengths and weaknesses of your record too - that might help someone in future. And the museum will file it away.

Just be clear - the museum doesn't need pretty drawings -the offsets will be fine.

If other people had done this with photos they took way back when - with letters they wrote about the boats - or the skipper's logbooks - even the commercial records of the pearls taken - just imagine how full the history would be - hundreds of photos through the life of the boat.

But all of this is lost because no-one valued it at the time. Ah - just Dad's old logbooks they say - or just Auntie Grace's holiday snaps. And the rest is history - in some council tip somewhere.

C'mon Dingo - just send 'em with a bit of a note so people can work out what they mean. And I promise you your working records are much more valuable than a tidied up set printed out in Excel or in some CAD program.

Real and valuable original work rather than something that is one or seventeen steps abstracted from the real records.

I have make you laugh and (hopefully) have made you cry - good start to the working week! Both need to be there in measure.

MIK

[Boatmik]

By the way Dingo ...

What probs are you having with David's Plans - or was it just the confusion of choice. Maybe I can help. But post in the other thread where you mention the boat - or the "wanted" thread.

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Im strugglin to understand what it is you want me to send to the muesum mate... I dont have Trixen anymore (turned to mush) I have photos of B6 iin an imagestation album and some figures I took went the way of Trixen... all I have left are those that Tony is sending me that I created from those of Trixen that I dont have... you want me to send them those? well you must since I dont have any others! :rolleyes:

Will respond on the other thread regards the other ;)

[Daddles]

Shane, send EVERYTHING remotely boat orientated to David and then take up knitting :D

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Richard,

It'd never do!


http://www.katharinecobey.com/images/boatmuseum2.jpg

Cheers,

P

(image from http://www.katharinecobey.com)

[Wild Dingo]

Shane, send EVERYTHING remotely boat orientated to David and then take up knitting :D

Richard

ME??? KNIT??? ME??? I mean ME knit??? :eek: Your joking right? :D Thats HER job! I dont do short and succinct I dont do knitting and I dont... well ahem sometimes Ive been known to but only rarely and if youve been told otherwise theyre lyin to you!! ;)

As for the plans I have... no mate I cant do that sorry... Elly (the 130 yr old Koster) I simply adore and have made a frame and installed her in pride of place in the living room... now theres a boat I REALLY wouldnt mind havin a go at making if I could source some straight strong 1 1/2in old growth Pine for the planking and such I once drew her rudder out on the living room floor just as an exersize sorta thing for a 30ft boat shes sure got a whopping BIG RUDDER!! :D ... Fame I just take out to drool over from time to time when looking at her half model drives me to distraction too much and the weekender I just read now and again as the mood takes me... the scans that Tony sent me after the flood to chuff my spirits well Id guess the museum and David already have them along with the few remaining books I have :(

I can feel a moment coming!!! :eek:


Really its a moment


one of those moments...



gawd help us here it is!!



No I gotta let it out!



ooh woe is poor ol me!! :p


aah that feels bedda! :cool:

cross post there midge... I will NOT go sailin in that!!! Even I would not go sailin in that!! I mean a bloke would get wet!! :D Real wet real quick! ;)

[Boatmik]

Im strugglin to understand what it is you want me to send to the muesum mate... all I have left are those that Tony is sending me that I created from those of Trixen that I dont have... you want me to send them those? well you must since I dont have any others! :rolleyes:

Yep!

[Wild Dingo]

Yep!

Your joking?? Mine? strewth mate what would anyone want with my attempts at redrawing a proven luggar? Tony I could understand one luggar nut to another but a museum? David?