Ornamental Joints

[Sculptured Box]

Hi

Found this site and thought it may be of general interest?

http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/jointwork.html (http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/jointwork.html)

Tony Ward

[MICKYG]

Would have trouble with this type of joinery, but nothing to stop me from drooling.:D


Regards Mike;)

[Carry Pine]

Words fail me, Tony. Can't comprehend the time, skill and effort that would have gone into these joints.
Carry Pine

[Carry Pine]

Blown away by this site. Browse his website for other work apart from boxes. Don't think my Gifkins dovetail kit would cope with attached picture!

[Wardy]

impressive to say the least. the amount of time and skill taken to achieve these joints are just mind blowing.patience is a virtue which this incredable craftsman has.

[ddeen]

holy cow. thanks Tony! What a true craftsman.

[zenwood]

Amazing stuff, and some beautiful timbers. The "twisted ivory" and "trick" joints have me stumped. I think I like the paper-thin finger joint the best: it manages to blend the side and end grain in an interesting way, though I think mitres are still the best way to allow nice timber to show itself.

Hmm...I couldn't see a single power tool in his workshop.

[Hickory]

I could do that if I wanted to...... :D

Okay so maybe I think I could do that. Well, I might be able to do that..... Okay, I wish I could do that... That is some impressive work.

Thanks for showing me up :mad: Really, thanks for the post.

[Auld Bassoon]

What stunning work! The joinery is magical!

[TTIT]

Just when you think you're getting the hang of it - something like that comes along to bring you back down to earth!:( How the hell does that trick joint play out :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[MrFixIt]

Hi

While I appreciate the fine woodwork involved, I doubt that they are all true joints of that shape.

This one ...

http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/picture/english/sikake2x.jpg

for example cannot be assembled. The round part of the "keyhole" shape will NOT pass between the fingers as the joint is assembed. The joint can slide together in one direction, but NOT both.

There must be some "inlay" work or similar to have these joints appear as they do.

None of that of course detracts from the original and good looking work. Just don't deride your own abilities for thinking that you could not do the same - I believe you could :D

[swiftden]

You ahve a good eye to pick that detail up about the keyhole shapes and i agre that you coul dnot assemble the joint. Must be some tricky inlays invovled.

[zenwood]

It may be that the keyhole joint is in fact a fancy mitre, so that the keyholes slide together at 45 degrees, rather than the 90 degrees that appears at first sight.

[javali]

It may be that the keyhole joint is in fact a fancy mitre, so that the keyholes slide together at 45 degrees, rather than the 90 degrees that appears at first sight.

I believe it is more complex than that. If the keyholes simply slide in at 45 degrees, I would expect a wider 'entry' for the keyhole. It has to enter from somewhere. This entry hole can be hidden inside the joint, but for this to work the joint must have some hollows inside.

[zenwood]

The inlay theory seems to run counter to what is stated elsewhere on the website:


Joints are commonly concealed in woodworking. But Kintaro exposes them positively as a design element. Tenons are often protruded in his work to show the honesty and strength of the joint work. Some of the tenons are originally designed in picturesque figures, which he calles 'Ornamental Joints'.
...
Kintaro Yazawa uses only solid wood.

(http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/style.html)

[MrFixIt]

Hi

It may be that the keyhole joint is in fact a fancy mitre, so that the keyholes slide together at 45 degrees, rather than the 90 degrees that appears at first sight.This is VERY unlikely. First the joints would then need to have a circular "motion" when assembling teh joint. This would then require those joints to be curved on the inner face of the timber.

While I don't doubt that this COULD be done, it is so very unlikely that I seriously doubt it. To compound this, you could only ever (with such a technique) only ever build a three sided "box" there would be no way that a box with such joints could be assembled.

[zenwood]

I'm not 100% committed to the mitre theory, but I still think it's worth pondering. Peter seems to have a rotating "hinged" type process in mind: I didn't. Just a linear motion at 45 degrees to both faces, rather than parallel to both faces. Assuming that works, a four sided box could be assembled from two sub-assemblies of two-sides each.

[MrFixIt]

Hi

I'm not 100% committed to the mitre theory, but I still think it's worth pondering. Peter seems to have a rotating "hinged" type process in mind:Yes, I did as this would be the ONLY way you could achieve something like the joint shown.


I didn't. Just a linear motion at 45 degrees to both faces, rather than parallel to both faces. Assuming that works, a four sided box could be assembled from two sub-assemblies of two-sides each.No, it is physically NOT possible to assemble such a join via a linear motion as you describe. The reason being that such a linear assembly would require the assembling of the joint begin at a point central to the mitred face of the joint. Any other linear motion would become a sliding motion of one piece on to the other, which as we have already decided, cannot be done. Such linear motion at 45º (or at 90º to each joint face) would require a wider opening at some point on the opposing joint face, to allow the wider "round" part to pass though. Such an opening would therefore be visible on the OUTSIDE of the visible joint.

I would draw it for you and show you, but my scanner does not instal properly in Windows XP :( and I don't have the time to draw it in software.

[zenwood]

No, it is physically NOT possible to assemble such a join via a linear motion I disagree. The attached diagram attempts to show how a keyhole finger can be assembled as part of a mitre joint using linear motion. Start at the top and imagine a dowelled mitre joint: the dowels are at 90 degrees to the face of the mitre, and at 45 degrees to each of the workpiece faces. The joint can be assembled using a linear motion parallel to the dowels. Now (the next one down) imagine putting a little shelf between the mitred face and the side of each dowel, and cut a corresponding slot in the other piece. These pieces can be assembled by a linear motion in exactly the same way as the dowelled pieces. This, I think, proves my point about linear assembly of keyhole fingers.

Still not sure if this is a method for Mr. Yazawa's box, I need to think about it some more...

[javali]

Zenwood, this design works only for mitres. If you cut the mitres back (as in Mr Yazawa's box) you expose the base of the dowel. As the base of the dowel is not visible on the box, I believe that the design is more complex.

[doug the slug]

this is incredible jointery, ive been trying to figure out how that one was made for about an hour. there are more complex joints in his work but interestingly wea are all trying to figure out this one. probably becazuse it looks like we should be able to achieve it :confused: :confused:

[Sculptured Box]

I've just found Kintaro Yazawa's site now has three new images of this box entitled "Trick Joint Box Japanese Zelkova"

http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/jointwork.html (http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/jointwork.html)

Tony Ward

[zenwood]

Zenwood, this design works only for mitres. If you cut the mitres back (as in Mr Yazawa's box) you expose the base of the dowel. As the base of the dowel is not visible on the box, I believe that the design is more complex.You've lost me there, Javal.:confused:

I've stared at the box for five more minutes, and I think my proposal works. I'll have to try drawing it. Then I'll try making it, but goodness knows how to go about cutting shelved dowels...

[labolle]

Look at the updated picture of Yazawa's Trick Joint box. The extreme close-up and open box view show convincingly that there is no Veneer work.

Also, look at his trick joint page at the new work middle-row far-right.
http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/jointwork.html
It to seems to be an impossible joint since it it is locked in both directions. But it is doable. Here is my attempt from this afternoon to reproduce it.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=4b12scd.jpg&.src=ph There are no camera tricks or voids. It slides in at an angle, provided it is cut accurately. My version was put together with no glue or adhesives at all and is rock solid based on the lock the joint provides.

Here is the same joint prior to sanding and rounding the edge of the joint.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=6d0dscd.jpg&.src=ph

[dnelson]

I believe zenwood is on to the answer. Looking at the diagram, as long as the round part of the key-hole is bored at 45deg, then the joint should slip together linearly. Putting the fourth side on my be a bit tricky but i do think it is able to be done.

[zenwood]

I think I'm on the right track, but going in the wrong direction...:)

[DPB]

Look at the updated picture of Yazawa's Trick Joint box. The extreme close-up and open box view show convincingly that there is no Veneer work.

Also, look at his trick joint page at the new work middle-row far-right.
http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/jointwork.html
It to seems to be an impossible joint since it it is locked in both directions. But it is doable. Here is my attempt from this afternoon to reproduce it.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=4b12scd.jpg&.src=ph There are no camera tricks or voids. It slides in at an angle, provided it is cut accurately. My version was put together with no glue or adhesives at all and is rock solid based on the lock the joint provides.

Here is the same joint prior to sanding and rounding the edge of the joint.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=6d0dscd.jpg&.src=ph
Wow, Labolle, fantastic and you did this in an afternoon! Oh, and welcome aboard. Please excuse our lack of manners in not acknowledging your first post. What a start!

Obviously, you are not new to woodworking, so we look forward to some great contributions from you. Show us some more of your work.:)

[labolle]

Actually, I am pretty new to wood working. I got my first dovetail saw last summer and have been working hard to learn to cut through dovetails with Frank Klause's methods. THen I came onto the a page describing Double Twisted Dovetails about a month ago, and have been working hard on that one joint ever since. So far all I have made is lots of practice joints in scrap wood, like the one I showed, and a few simple boxes. My friend says when it comes to woodworking I am a one-trick-pony: dovetails. So far the internet has been a fantastic resource. I am waiting for some books on box making to come in the mail from Amazon now. THen I hope to learn how to add some trays, drawers, and internal divisions to make a proper jewelry box. Wish me luck.

[labolle]

Putting the fourth side on my be a bit tricky but i do think it is able to be done.
The fact that it has been done shows that it can be done. I believe that they are done at a 45 degree angle like the double-twisted-dovetail I assembled is done. To assemble a box two opposing corners would be done first creating two L-shaped pieces, then the two remaining opposing corners would be at slid down at the same time using those L-shaped pieces.

[dnelson]

labolle,
yeah that is how I was imagining it to be done.

By the way: Welcome and fantastic work on the joint you show.

[labolle]

Let me try to introduce myself. Hmm... Where to start?

I began my life with tools when I was five years old and figured out how to use a screwdriver to take my toys apart. I even managed to get them back together again. Sometimes.

As a kid I made a few treehouses and dog houses and managed not to break any bones in the process. In high school I took a semester of Woodshop as an elective where I made a simple end table for my project. I barely passed that class since fifty percent of our grade was based on our weekly quizes: two pages of math problems based on how to figure out board feet. Didn't really learn a whole lot there besides how to read an imperial ruler,to hold a rip saw properly, and how to swing a hammer.

Fast forward twenty years later and I finally have a small garage of my own to play in. Last summer my wife and I drove down from Canada to Mexico. Along the way we stopped at every antique store we passed where I picked up a few old Stanley planes and a couple of chisels. I also stopped at an Ace Hardware store and picked up a cheap dovetail saw for under ten dollars U.S.

Once we got back to Taiwan (where I run a English language cram school with classes in the afternoons and evenings after the kids get out of regular school) I set to work on trying to figure out how to sharpen the tools and use them. My first shavings with the planes were very satisfying, though the undulating lumber left over was not good for much.

Then I started trying to figure out how to cut through dovetails with my saw. I made every mistake possible along the way from setting out my sockets with the V pointing out, to others that looked like they had been gnawed out by a demented rat with bad teeth.

I looked up every article I could find on how to layout and cut dovetails. So many of them make it seem so complicated. Which it really isn't. Why just yesterday I picked up a Good Woodworking magazine which had part 2 of a three part article on how to lay out dovetails. If I remember right the exciting conclusion "How to lay out and cut the pins," or something like that, is due next month.... It really is not that complicated at all. Frank Klause's technique covered in a recent copy of Fine Woodworking is what got me pointed in the right direction. Mr. Klause's technique does not involve any layout lines at all. Skipping that step saves me so much time! He stresses learning how to master three basic cuts: Straight, left slanting, and right slanting.

After A LOT of practice I started to manage to cram my pins into the sockets (with a lot of help from my hammer and some strong clamps). Then eventually I made my first box. It was very satisfying, though it is quite rough to look at now...

Then one day a few months ago while surfing the internet I came across this article by Richard Jones which introduced a seemingly "impossible...unworkable" joint: the double twisted dovetail, which he reckoned could not be used to make a box since there was too much wiggling needed to get the joints together.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=furniture&file=articles_442.shtm

Seemingly Impossible? My curiosity was peaked.

Then I came across another article by John Buller which explains how he did manage to do a small box with the joint:

http://www.individualfurniture.com/maker/Dovetail-Maker.htm

I then came across a program that would lay out a template for a simple twisted dovetail. Looking at the lines on the template helped me get my head around how the angles of the joint interact.

http://www.blocklayer.com/Woodjoints/DovetailTwist.aspx

After that I managed to make a couple of rough versions of the joint:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=7172scd.jpg&.src=ph

Eventually, I came across Master Kintaro Yazawa's monstrously large version of the double twisted joint in a coffee shop shown here: http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/publicspace.html

and his Original Joint Work page http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/jointwork.html
Which everyone has been discussing here in this thread.

Master Yazawa's work has touched me deeply. It inspires me to strive for an impossible perfection of technique and vision, for that is what I see in his joints. Even the simplest of his joints, the stamp box with paper thin joints, has a zen like quailty to its sublime perfection.

I have saved different versions of his joints as screen savers and desktop backgrounds on different computers around the house and find myself staring at them and losing track of time as I try to figure out how they were done. I try to picture how I would try do each joint. I try to understand what kind of person could create such things in his mind that are so unlike anything else anyone else has ever done with wood. It is even more awe-inspiring that Master Yazawa could then take those mental musings and make them reality. It boggles my mind and inspires me to try to break beyond the boundries of my own mundane wood working craft.

It is with this frame of mind that I yesterday tried to re-create a joint he had posted on his website the day before.
(middle row, far right) http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~k-yazawa/jointwork.html

Here is my attempt, which for some reason in hindsight feels like sacrilege in it audacity:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/labolleslearningcenter/detail?.dir=/df43scd&.dnm=4b12scd.jpg&.src=ph

Tomorrow I will try to use that joint to make a four sided box. I think it will be a challenge.

Wish me luck.

David L.

[DPB]

Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm very curious. Based on your excellant command of the English language and your nice 'turn of phrase", I conclude that Taiwan is not your native land. You write like a Canuck - have I got that correct?:D

[labolle]

Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm very curious. Based on your excellant command of the English language and your nice 'turn of phrase", I conclude that Taiwan is not your native land. You write like a Canuck - have I got that correct?:D

A little further south....

California: swimming pools and movie stars....

[zenwood]

Nice extensive post labolle. My reaction is similar to yours in being somewhat gobsmacked (if not obsessed) by these joints. I noticed a couple of new pics on Yazawa's website, and one shows the dude actually handsawing the triangular profile paper thin finger joints:eek::

http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/%7Ek-yazawa/picture/english/hishigata3x.jpg

I think I'm converging on a possibility for the keyhole joints. The pic shows the general idea, though some details are not accurate. For example, the website photo with the open lid shows a lap joint at the top, and also, I would imagine the fingers themselves would be mitred at the interior, not bent out as they are in the pic, but that's a bit harder to draw.

A full box could be made by joining two L-shaped sub-assemblies.

My previous pic was not workable because the 'plain' finger directly underneath the keyhole would need a round slot cut in it to accomodate the keyhole. Hence the need to have the whole thing aligned along the "other" 45 degree direction.

If something like this is the method, I have no idea how you would cut these fingers.

BTW: no need to flagellate yourself about committing sacrilege: imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[labolle]

YEs. That is exactly how I imagine he did it too. How to cut out the fingers? THat is the mystery. Have you seen the joints of the sewing box on Master Yazawa's Original Joint Work page? Cutting out the pins for those joints seem to be even more technically challenging.

Nice work on that drawing! I would like to learn how to do that some day. WHat program did you use and how much time did it take?

I have been thinking of making simple practice box with four pieces of wood with simple miters at the edge. Then drilling a hole at 45 degrees from one face to another for a round peg to slide into. THen dissasembling the box which has not been glued yet. Glue the pegs into one edge of each board and letting it set. Finally with the protruding pegs at 45 degrees try to assemble the box. I believe the exercise could help to figure out how trick joint box his was assembled. Figuring out how he cut the joints is another matter altogether.

BUt that exercise will have to wait for me to finish the double twisted joint box I have begun first.

[zenwood]

labolle:

I had a look at the scissors joint on the sewing box: yes, if you can do the scissors, the keyholes would be easy. In principle, I think the scissors joint could be made according to the same mitre method as my drawing. In fact, I believe that any pattern of endgrain wood either side of the mitre could, by back-projection along the line of the mitre, be theoretically made into a joint. How to practically cut the back-projected shapes is another matter.

I used CorelDraw to draw the joint. Took an hour or so I guess.

Your round-pegged mitre practice joint sounds like fun. I'd be careful drilling the holes from one face to the other though: you'll need to use pieces of scrap to backup the faces so you don't tear the fibres out of the faces when drilling a hole at 45 degrees. The Ozziejig can be configured to do a version of this joint by drilling holes in from the face of the mitre - though you'd still need backing pieces on the exit side:

http://www.ozziejigs.com.au/photos/boxcnr.jpg

[javali]

I am sorry to ruin the fun, but it seems that this is not the way the joint is constructed. This method would leave visible entry holes on the inside of the joint. The photos of the inside of the box do not show these. It just seems impossible...

[labolle]

I am sorry to ruin the fun, but it seems that this is not the way the joint is constructed. This method would leave visible entry holes on the inside of the joint. The photos of the inside of the box do not show these. It just seems impossible...

WHat I proposed was meerly an exercise in the mechanics of the assembly, and was in no way meant to infer that that is the way Master Kintaro Yazawa CUT his joint. LIke you pointed out, the pics speak for themselves as far as the lack of unnecessary entry or exit holes.

[zenwood]

Good point, javali. Back to the drawing board!

[Lignum]

Good point, javali. Back to the drawing board!

Zen, im thinking that its basicly a finger join and the round exposed ends are paired back sharply a mill or so into the box. That way it can be assembled all four sides in one motion just with minimal moderate force.

Like all "magic" its all deception and very simple. Maybe that explaines the reluctance of the Japaneese guy wanting to come into the forum and explain his methods, as we would all look and say 'gee its so simple, why didnt i think of that" If i can get a bit of time soon ill have a go and see if i can make one.

Midge is good at lateral wood thinking, maybe he can get his brain power into gear and see what he thinks.:D

[zenwood]

Look forward to the WIP shots, Lignum.

Yes, I'm sure it's obvious once you know...:)

[labolle]

I believe that using the jig would create a realistic model of how the joint slides together. Even using the jig as shown, there would be no visible holes inside the box, only at the outside edges. Though, I'm sure Master Yazawa did not use a jig like yours.

[Dan]

Back to the drawing board!

I don't see why your original idea wouldn't work.:confused:

[Kevin Coad]

My grandpa taught me something like that. imagine two boards lying on top of each other mitered and ready to be put together. both ends are lined up and are pulled away from each other locking them together at 90 degrees the key lock in it is not a true key lock. the round part you see is the bottom of a cone shape key not a barrel shape it locks into a bowl of equal shape. that way the corner can pivot together. -K-:2tsup:

[dougop]

I believ that the joint shown can be done without inlaying. Just because some people cant figure out a way doesnt mean others cant. Think outside the box ( or inside the joint )

[ianreid13]

hi im new here but i think i have a way to make this.it might also be wrong. do you want me to tell you my way or do you want to figure it out yourselves.

ian

[Sheets]

Hi Ian,

You mean do you want us to figure out if you're wrong or not?

How about you make the joint, document it with pics and video (in 1080p, ok kidding about that) and show us? Or just tell us? Or not.
I'm not going to ever make something like that myself (but I think I know how I would try).

Anyway, I'm all ears (or eyes) :U

Steve

[AUSSIE]

hi im new here but i think i have a way to make this.it might also be wrong. do you want me to tell you my way or do you want to figure it out yourselves.

ian
Hi Ian.
I would like to see it done your way or anyway at all.It has been sitting on the net for a few years now.Your not exactly new to the forum.I noticed you have dabbled with puzzles for a year or so.----SO Let The Story Begin-:2tsup:

[ianreid13]

here is the way i would do it. i mean to do it when i get the time. the the joint is pulled apart at 45 degrees and then pulled apart at another 45 degrees. hopefully the pics will explain. i appologise for the bad pics but paint is all i have on my computer.

ian