Water stones and sharpening techniques

[andrewsd]

Hello all. 2 questions:

1. I have been using a sharpening system for chisels and plane blades based on a diamond plate followed by 3 water stones - 800, 1200 and 4000. My technique may be off, although I do both the back and the bevel of blades and spend a fair bit of time on each. I am unhappy with the edge I get using the above system. What grade waterstone do you go up to so that you get a razor edge?

2. Has anyone got a better system to recommend. I have seen a couple of articles recommending wet and dry paper on a glass sheet backing. Does this work as well or better than water stones?

Thanks

A

[chrisb691]

Hello all. 2 questions:

1. I have been using a sharpening system for chisels and plane blades based on a diamond plate followed by 3 water stones - 800, 1200 and 4000. My technique may be off, although I do both the back and the bevel of blades and spend a fair bit of time on each. I am unhappy with the edge I get using the above system. What grade waterstone do you go up to so that you get a razor edge?

2. Has anyone got a better system to recommend. I have seen a couple of articles recommending wet and dry paper on a glass sheet backing. Does this work as well or better than water stones?

Thanks

A

I can't advise on whetstones, but if you do a search for scary sharp you'll get the wet and dry method. This really does work!!!

[mat]

What exactly are you unhappy about with the edge? Do you get a mirror finish front and back? You should get a mirror finish with 4000!

Do you hone a microbevel as well?

[silentC]

I get a razor sharp edge with the same stone combo you are using. Are you using a honing guide?

[MikeW]

Hi Andrew,

While I do sharpen to a higher grit stone--8k in my case--when working I usually only hone to 2k. Then usually each morning while having coffee, I sharpen the previous tools back to 8k grit.

However, a couple points here.

First, once the back is flat, you do not need to continue honing it regardless of sharpening medium.

You will need to lightly, and with the back flat on its back, remove the wire edge produced with one or two swipes on the stone.

I assume you flatten your waterstones regularly? If not, it can be a source of trouble.

The whole point here is that if you cannot obtain a decent edge on what you have, you may have trouble on another sharpening medium.

Do you use a guide of any type? If so, which one? If not, how do you go about sharpening now? Perhaps it will be simply giving direct advice based on what equipment you have now.

Take care, Mike

[derekcohen]

Hi Andrew

Rule #1: You only polish the back of a blade once in the case of a chisel, and once in the case of a plane blade that is not backbeveled (never put a backbevel on a chisel anyway).

If you are using anything under your highest grit on the back of the blade, you are undoing all your work. Do it once and leave it be.

Rule #2: The primary bevel MUST show a wire edge on your coarsest grit before moving to the next one up the line.

Don't be tempted to remove the wire edge with your coarse grit (see Rule #1). Only do this with your final polishing stone.

Rule #3: The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge. A minimum is a 6000. Incidentally, the King 4000 stone I have is a shocker - too hard and just glazes over. Incidentally, I use 800, 1200 and 8000 King waterstones. The 8000 is expensive but twice the size of the 6000, which is a good stone too. I hone with Veritas green rouge (crayon), which is good for approx 9000 grit. The finest diamond stone is about the equivalent of a 1200 waterstone.

Rule #4: A good edge is a clean edge at the appropriate bevel angle. For paring chisels, I prefer 20 degrees (which is only going to work if your steel han handle this), with bench chisels at 25-30 degrees, and mortice chisels at 35 degrees. Plane blades vary widely. Bevel down planes use either 25 or 30 degrees (not critical), while bevel up go from 25 - 50 degrees. To make sure that this is done both swiftly and reliably, I use a honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

See, by saying "The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge" you're going to make him think that it's necessary to go out and spend a fortune on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone, when it's clear that the stone is not the problem. I have been using a 4000 grit stone for a three years now (the same one) and, I know we have had debates about what is "really sharp", but I have found it more than sufficient for my purposes.

[CameronPotter]

Good call Silent.

[derekcohen]

Silent

It is all relative, but I don't think that $45 for a 6000 waterstone (that will last several years) is excessive. As much as the 4000 may work for you, it does not come close to working for me when it comes to planing hardwood. It would be very important for Andrew to say what he wants to do with his blades, which would guide the advice on grit level.

Nevertheless, I did emphasise (albeit it hurriedly) that getting a clean bevel is important, and this is where Andrew should start (that is, using his existing grits). See "Rules" 1 and 2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

They've come down in price since I last looked!

My point is just that (and I have been through this myself) it's very easy to start blaming the equipment and thinking your problem lies in not having the right gear. Refer to all the pages of posts we have here already about people going from the grey wheel to the oilstone and being happy with the results. If you can be happy with the edge you get from the 800 - 1200 - 4000 think how happy you will be with the 6000 or 8000.

[CameronPotter]

Yep. That was who I interpretted it too. Get the fundamentals right, then worry about the specifics.

Cam

[bitingmidge]

All of the above is good advice, but unless you are consistently sharpening at the same angle, you won't get there!

I know there are many on this board who sharpen by hand, but those like me who only get to it a few times per year (or less) will pretty much only succeed by using a jig of some description, no matter what the sharpening stone/paper/diamond medium may be.

I think the Rolls Royce of those is the Veritas MkII and wouldn't be without mine, but there are others that work satisfactorily for a lot less money.

Sandpaper (scarysharp) works well, and it is what introduced me to what sharp blades are really like, but I am not alone in thinking that they are just a step on the way to buying waterstones!

I have the same setup as silentC, then hone finally with a bit of Veritas Green stuff on a piece of MDF. I'm no sharpening expert, in fact I'm barely proficient, but it does the job very well.

Finally, flatten your stones. I use Derek's method: a piece of 10mm glass and a bit of plasterboard sanding mesh, but before that I used the face of a concrete block. You'll find that most concrete blocks have been autoclaved and have cured to a very flat surface, but make sure that's the case with the one you pick won't you?

Hope that helps too!

Cheers,

P

[Waldo]

G'day,

There's tonnes of different ways to sharpen your blades. For my 2¢ I hollow grind on the bench grinder and using a MrkII Veritas Honing Guide run it over a corse Arkansas Stone then a super fine oil stone. I lap the back, bevel edges and sides freehand and with all this I get a scary sharp quality finish with a mirror finish. BTW thanks to Wood Borer for the demo in his shed one Saturday.:)

Simple and works for me. I take my time doing it so I get a top result and it's relaxing. Although I've cut through several fingernails in the process of sharpening. :)

[Toolin Around]

See, by saying "The 4000 grit is not really fine enough for a really sharp/smooth edge" you're going to make him think that it's necessary to go out and spend a fortune on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone, when it's clear that the stone is not the problem. I have been using a 4000 grit stone for a three years now (the same one) and, I know we have had debates about what is "really sharp", but I have found it more than sufficient for my purposes.


I'm with Derek on this. I've never found a 4000 grit stone that would give me the "sticky" edge I desire. The sort of edge I like is one where I can actually go against the grain without tear out and you can't do that if the finest grit you use is 4000. My finest stone is a 6000 and then I buff the bevel side of the chisel.

[damienhazo]

Don't have any experience with either the Mark II:

23641

or the Trend, but if the point is getting a consistent angle, the Trend looks like a good idea:

23642

Here's the link if anyone's interested in finding out more:

http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/fasttrack/

Damien

[MikeW]

Hi Damien,

One problem with the Trend is the short throw one has when using it. And it is relatively easy to rock the edge tool.

But a honing guide like the MK.II has been well covered on the forums and is pretty much the recommended one. And Eclipse style side clamp is relatively inexpensive and works well, too.

Take care, Mike

[andrewsd]

Thanks very much everyone. I have a Veritas Mk II guide and think I'm using it properly, although it doesn't seem to be made for Japanese butt chisels (which is what I am sharpening). A lot of fiddling around seems to be required to get it into what I think is the correct attitude.

Derek, I am just a beginner but I had hoped to use the set of 7 Japanese butt chisels for the whole range of chisel jobs. Do I need to have separate sets for different usages?

Think I will invest in an 8000 and see if it helps. I take the point about technique though - maybe I am doing something wrong. Will see how the 8000 goes and if that doesn't work, I've answered the question!

Andrew

[Midnight]

When I first started out I couldn't sharpen for love nor money; freehand edges made a ball pein 'ammer look sharp by comparrison... I won't go into the houks n divots in the stone...

Finding the Mk1 veritas guide was a god-send.. with the ability to set and maintain an angle repeatedly I could at last get something approximating sharp although I was still a mile away from taking whispy thin shavings...

Then I discovered David Charlesworth's method, found some cheap but decent waterstones and finally started getting somewhere.

Thesedays a normal sharpening session sees me reaching for the Mk2 guide and a 12,000 grit King stone... Provided there's no nicks in my blades, the most they need is a quick tickle on the stone to freshen them up again... Using anything courser is simply removing steel needlessly and giving yourself a ton of unnecessary work in the process... 5 swipes on the bevel, bout the same on the back to weaken the wire edge, strop on my t-shirt and they're done... allowing for set up and clean up I normally get through 4 blades in about 15 mins (inc reassembling the blade in the plane after a quick wipe with oil)..

Whispy thin shavings aren't a myth after-all.. ;)

If a half baked paid from the neck down eejit like myself can crack it, you'll get there too.. good stone kept nice n flat and free from ground in debris (I keep a 2000 grit stone specifically for flatting the rest of my fine stones) plus some way to set your honing angle repeatedly and you'll crack it in minutes..

[silentC]

you can't do that if the finest grit you use is 4000
Maybe you can't ;)

[TassieKiwi]

Oohh goody. another sharpening tome underway. I got a chinese #12000 frome the US for about $60 delivered.;)

D

[MikeW]

Please pass the popcorn...

Mike

[derekcohen]

Think I will invest in an 8000 and see if it helps.

Hi Andrew

In view of you being a novice, I think that the first thing you should invest in is a decent honing guide - get a reliable, clean edge first with your 4000. This will give you a better idea of the limitations of your current set up. Only then should you consider either a 6000 or 8000.

Your Japanese bench chisels are likely to take a very good edge and hold it well (they all do, no matter the cost). They will work well for most things except mortices and prying chips (don't do it - the edge will chip as the steel is brittle), or dovetails (too thick at the edges).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[DanP]

I got a chinese #12000 frome the US for about $60 delivered.

Where from? and is it any good?

[TassieKiwi]

I got this one. It polishes perfectly, though I don't have anything else to compare. Distinctly finer than the King 6000. Very bleedin' sharp edges though. Literally. DAMHIK.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4920

[MikeW]

I agree, that is a good stone. Worth every penny.

Take care, Mike

[derekcohen]

TK

That stone looks like the one I got from Carba-tec for $29.

http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=270_7610

It is hard to tell what grit they are... I suppose if they leave a scratch after a 8000, then they are less than this, and if they remove the 8000 scratches then they are greater than that.

I did not know that anyone could be so exact so as to specify a natural waterstone at a specific grit. These stones are not like that - they vary within and between themselves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[MikeW]

From looking at the ones I have, I actually find it difficult to believe they are not "helped" in their formation, like cultured pearls, so to speak.

I've unwrapped and used a dozen in classes. Very consistent in grain.

The question is Derek, does yours take out the scratches from the 8k stone you have?

Take care, Mike

[Toolin Around]

Thanks very much everyone. I have a Veritas Mk II guide and think I'm using it properly, although it doesn't seem to be made for Japanese butt chisels (which is what I am sharpening). A lot of fiddling around seems to be required to get it into what I think is the correct attitude.

Derek, I am just a beginner but I had hoped to use the set of 7 Japanese butt chisels for the whole range of chisel jobs. Do I need to have separate sets for different usages?

Think I will invest in an 8000 and see if it helps. I take the point about technique though - maybe I am doing something wrong. Will see how the 8000 goes and if that doesn't work, I've answered the question!

Andrew

If you have a grinder why don't you buy a hard cloth buffing wheel and some buffing compound also. An 8000 will give you a fantastic edge but an 8000 and buffing it takes it to a whole other level.

[Toolin Around]

Maybe you can't ;)

Guess it depends on what you consider fine work;)

[Toolin Around]

I've never read it but a lot of folks here say Leonard Lee's sharpening book is good (I'm sure someone here knows the title...). Maybe a good place to get some good techniques.

[JDarvall]

I found the 8000 grit left a distinctly better finish than the 6000 grit. Better reflection.....Like looking in the mirror. Suddenly start looking like ordinary old Jake, instead of Robert Redford in a steamy bathroom. :rolleyes:

Definetly liked the 8000, but as to the improvement the 8000grit brings over the 6000 in practise .....(shrug), couldn't be much difference eh, especially after a few passes.

I didn't like the 6000 grit stone I got though. It was glued to this silly little plastic table. The glue gave after a while so it would wiggle about on the table, which along with the flex of the plastic made the whole idea of a little stand pointless.....I took it off, and have since realised one of the reasons it was there. It was so thin, the plastic made it looked bigger. :D

My 8000's broken in 3 pieces now. the bloody cat kicked it off the table chasing something. So I just use the 6000.

[silentC]

Guess it depends on what you consider fine work;)
When I finish something and the wife says "that looks fine to me" ;)

[JDarvall]

When I finish something and the wife says "that looks fine to me" ;)

:D And happy wife = happy life ..... still need to buy that canoe Biting midge

[Toolin Around]

When I finish something and the wife says "that looks fine to me" ;)


I know what you're saying. I always say "It's close enough the girls I go out with"

[Heavansabove]

An old book suggested using shellac to glue a broken oil stone back together, might work with a waterstone as well. Mind you, also recommended placing gluggy oilstones in the fire overnight to get rid of excess oil!

[Cruzi]

Thought I was quite clever using sandpaper and glass to sharpen the plane and chisel blades until I discovered this and other threads on the "Scary Sharp" method......:doh:
The paper is not glued to the glass but folded under the backing board, this seems to hold it quite well, and since I'm using wet and dry, the water actually seems to act like a glues(almost) and hold the paper quite still and flat.
This gave me much sharper edges than I had previously got and started to actually enjoy using a plane, but still getting some tearout happening.

Been using a Stanley Honing Guide but have ordered the Veritas MKII and 6000 Waterstone.

For some reason, polishing up the back of the blade never occured to me, so guess what I'm doing today :C


A few questions have arisen from reading the good info supplied here.


Question 1, Is it OK to use water?

Question 2, Having sharpened up to 2000 grit using "Scary Sharp" method, is the jump to a 6000 grit stone to much ? ie. Should I have also ordered a 4000 grit stone?

Question 3, What's a micro bevel and how to?

Question 4, Do I need to polish the base of the plane(s) as well?


Thanks in Advance

[Cruzi]

:doh:
Think I found the answer to Q1 & 2
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=19319

And Q4, at least 180 grit.......

[Harry72]

Im a bit fazed about the jump from 2000WD to a 6000g, I find the 2000WD gives a better shine than my 6000g stone?(MkII guide)
Does that sound right???

[jaspr]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread Cruzi.

Given Derek's comments below, I now understand part of the problem I have been having.



Rule #3: ... Incidentally, the King 4000 stone I have is a shocker - too hard and just glazes over. Derek

I've been using a King 4000 (knowing I needed a finer stone, but hadn't invested in it yet).

The 4000 is hard and does glaze over- and I never knew this wasn't normal. I hate it! Love the 800 and 1200, though. Nice to use. I've recently bought a 8000 to0, but haven't tried it yet.

By the way, I was rereading the June 06 FWW magazine last night. There is an article by Brent Beach on sharpening. He uses the scary sharp method - but instead of wet and dry, he recommends microfinishing sheet abrasives from 3M. Apparently the grits are very uniform and good quality. He uses 15 micron, 5 micron and 0.3 micron papers and lubricates with baby oil. By comparison a 8000 grit japanese waterstone is 1.3 microns.

jas

[derekcohen]

Question 2, Having sharpened up to 2000 grit using "Scary Sharp" method, is the jump to a 6000 grit stone to much ? ie. Should I have also ordered a 4000 grit stone?

Cruzi

While one should not compare sandpaper grit ratings against waterstone grit ratings (there are other factors involved as well), a 2000 sandpaper grit is the same micron rating as a 8000 waterstone (=1 micron). So you would be GOING BACKWARDS with the waterstone!

For the backs of blades, I go straight from 1200 sandpaper to Veritas green rouge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Cruzi]

While one should not compare sandpaper grit ratings against waterstone grit ratings (there are other factors involved as well), a 2000 sandpaper grit is the same micron rating as a 8000 waterstone (=1 micron). So you would be GOING BACKWARDS with the waterstone!



Bugger, the theory was that because the Scary Sharp Method is so expensive long term, it was to be used for honing and the 6000g stone was to be for maintaining the edge.


What stone would then suit this purpose?

[derekcohen]

Bugger, the theory was that because the Scary Sharp Method is so expensive long term, it was to be used for honing and the 6000g stone was to be for maintaining the edge.


What stone would then suit this purpose?

Either only use sandpaper up to 1200 grit (leaving out the 2000 grit), then go to a 6000 waterstone, followed by Veritas green crayon (rubbed on a piece of MDF),

or

Forget the 6000 waterstone if you want to continue with 2000 grit sandpaper. Add the Veritas as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Harry72]

Ah'ha so my assumption tis correct.
Mite invest in a 8000 stone, or would it be better to go straight to the 10,000 seeming I have a 6000?

[derekcohen]

Harry

There is not a big difference between a 6000 (2.0 microns) and an 8000 (1.2 microns). I moved to a 8000 as it replaced a worn-out 6000. The 8000 is twice the price of the 6000 but also twice the size. I would recommend that you just add Veritas green rouge (.5 micron) after the 6000 stone. Just jub the crayon on a piece of MDF and hone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Shedhand]

Harry

Just jub the crayon on a piece of MDF and hone.

Regards from Perth

DerekWhy not rub the crayon on a piece of 10mm float glass?

[JDarvall]

Why not rub the crayon on a piece of 10mm float glass? maybe the glass would scratch up a bit....imagine if the blade edge then caught a scratch the result wouldn't be good.

Honestly, never tried it. Try it and tell us how you go. (guessing the strop or mdf be better,,,something softer)

[derekcohen]

The MDF with absorb the rouge and hold it. The glass will not (I assume - never tried it).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Shedhand]

The MDF with absorb the rouge and hold it. The glass will not (I assume - never tried it).

Regards from Perth

DerekI remember as a kid that the old man used to sharpen scissors on the rim of a thick drinking glass before he gave the 6 of us a basin cut. The point being, why not just hone the edge on the glass surface. Might try it and see how I go. Wonder what micron size glass is??

[Harry72]

Thanks Derek, the honing compound is a wee bit cheaper too...

[Cruzi]

Thank you for the helpful tips Derek:2tsup: