workbench top--liquid nails or pva ?

[blockhed]

:)
hi there !
this forum is excellant for the beginner.(and pro)
i did a search on glues/adhesives, lots of info, but i got a bit lost, so i figured i'd post my querie, as i have to do the job tommorrow.
i'm making an workbench,i've made the base already and now i have to glue the top. i've been given some 190x40 oregon planks(from pergola)
i have an ozzie dowell jig assembly and would like to know if liquid nails would be better than pva glue for the overall joining.
regards
blockhed
:)

[boban]

No

[stevebaby]

No

[stevebaby]

Liquid nails won't last and probably not as strong as pva.

[Wongo]

no

[tonysa]

no !

[Shedhand]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[blockhed]

:D
thanks for the reply guys.
PVA it is. being a beginner i've used liquid nails in the past on small jobs and for some reason it did'nt always bond. the Mitre 10 guys recommended liquid nails for this job, but i was still unsure.
btw this forum is tops
regards
blockhed
:D

[tonysa]

good choice Blockhed, and welcome to the site

you'll find the wood gives before the PVA does
plus it cleans up with damp cloth when wet

just make sure everything is flush, clean and grease free and follow the instructions.

[blockhed]

:D
thanks tonysa
i'm going to whip around this forum for a bit.
a lot of info is here for some up and coming jobs.
regards
blockhed
:D

[Master Splinter]

You should let the oregon dry out a bit before you use it - the stuff I've seen used on pergolas is always pretty close to green.

This means you will have quite a lot of shrinkage, in the region of a centimeter across the width of those planks over the next 12-18 months as they season.

[zenwood]

Sounds like you're using the Ozziejig to help you do the edgejointing of the oregon pieces to make the slab. In this case, the dowels will help you get the surface flush, but the important thing will be to get the mating edges flat and square to the surface. Once you've done that PVA glue on the mating faces will give you all the strength you'll ever need (i.e. the glued dowels only add a small amount to the strength). (See this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=300169&postcount=14) where I do something similar.)

I believe "Liquid Nails" is designed more for the building industry where large gaps have to be filled.

[Iain]

Probably a bit late but wouldn't the cross linked be a better option?
Seems that Mitre 10 leave a bit to be desired when it comes to offering advice, I use liquid nails and similar for sheet material like wood panelling and fixing boards to walls etc but never in a case like this.
MIK would have a better range of specialist glues than Mitre 10 and offer some better advice too.

[Wongo]

the Mitre 10 guys recommended liquid nails for this job

That's the problem man. You should never listen to them. I am not saying that they don't know their stuff because they do (well a few of them do) but only to a certain level. They are handymen not woodworkers.

Bunnings is probably worse. Those tools specialist treat you like an idiot sometimes.

“Can I help you sir? that is called a dead-blow hammer.”

“Really! wow it has sand in it?:D ”

OR

“That one is a router but this one is a trimmer.“

“OK thanks”

Sometimes they just don’t give me a chance or they should at least leave me alone.

What about the some wrong advice they give to others. I know it I have heard a lot of conversations when they are giving wrong advice to their customers.:mad:

[blockhed]

:D
thanks for the info guys !
Master Splinter the pergola would be at least 10 years old, so no probs being dry.

zenwood, thanks for the pics as well-i'll include some dogs as well.

Iain, i went to Mik today and bought 2 tubes of Titebond 111 i wrote it down last night after reading some more posts on the forum. what do you mean by cross linked ? i'm ready to start gluing tommorrow, i did'nt have time today.
hi Wongo--my problem with Mitre 10 is due to the fact i'm only a handyman and not too experienced as yet at this stuff. if they tell me something, i'm not real sure if it's right or wrong.
Mik International as already stated are totally professional. they gave me excellant advice on everything i enquired about, and i've ordered a terrific little jig assembly for chisel and blade sharpening. it costs $73 and i can't see myself making a mistake with sharpening-it's that good.(i forgot the brand name)
regards
blockhed
:)

[Hickory]

Liquid nails is a construction adhesive and in such is a surface bonding agent. It is not suited for any joinery as it skims over quickly and thus reduces the bonding ability. PVA will ooze into the fibers of the wood snd when it sets, it is an interlocking agent that not only hardens to a surface bond but interlocks to the cells.

If you are worried about weather conditions or course surface or grainy woods, then select Polyurethan glue (I prefer Gorilla Glue) as it expands as it sets and forces its way into the pores and crevices of the wood, filling loose joints and cracks, it also is weather resistant.

Again if weather is a concern the Titebond III is suppose to weather all the storms. However, I did have a flat panel shed door fail last spring (year ago) the severe winter storms had soaked the wood and the glue (Titebond III) failed with the first good wind storm. I scraped the M & T joints added pocket screws as backup and Gorilla Glued them together and they held this season's continuous rain.

[Iain]

Cross linked describes the action of the glue, it means that it forms into 'strands' and forms a web with the strands feeding through each other, all of this is a microscopic process so don't look for it happening, it will be just a yellow gloop on a piece of wood to the naked eye.
Gorilla glue is not available here as far as I am aware and the jig you have sounds like a Veritas honing jig, a lot of us have them and swear by them, they do a damned good job.
The polyurethane glue described is expensive and not neccessary for what you are doing, it has a limited shelf life once opened, it is applied to one surface and the other surface is lighty sprayed with water then the two joined and clamped.
Great for outdoor furniture but an uneccessary expense otherwise.
Titebond have this glue too and had MIK thought you would have needed it they woul;d have pointed you at it.
Titebond is a favourite of mine and I use different types for different applications.

[blockhed]

:D
thanks Hickory and Iain !
i've got the Titebond 111 ready to go.
i think that jig was the Veritas, he said it is the latest and it has a guide plate extra included for the planer blades. it stops any sideways movement.
regards
blockhed
:D

[Wongo]

Goog choice mate. Titebond I and II are just as good too.:)

Just one thing, apply glue to both glue surface, don’t be lazy. It works much better that way.

[blockhed]

Goog choice mate. Titebond I and II are just as good too.:)

Just one thing, apply glue to both glue surface, don’t be lazy. It works much better that way.

:D
yeah, thanks Wongo. i took a punt and did just that and it flushed up on every join. the planks were rough sawn and painted, so i had to sand the edges before dowells/glue. 2 of the planks were slighty raised in the middle and i knew i would have to cut them back a bit to get a flat top.
i have a planer and a big plunge router.
which one would be the best option to get a flat top ?
i might have to start a new thread maybe?
regards
blockhed
:D

[Wongo]

Planer is a bit more straight forward but it takes more skill. Router is perfect and it produces good result but you need to build a jig.

The choice is yours mate.:)

[blockhed]

:D
ok thanks Wongo. i knew the planer would be too hard.
i have some angle iron i can make into a slider for the router.
is that the type of jig you mean ? i would just place the track above the slab and plunge down ?
regards
blockhed
:D

[brit_in_oz]

Hi

i work as an adhesive chemist for one of the largest suppliers in the world of adhesives. Everyone it correct, dont use liquid nails, the primary design for this is wall panelling and joist - flooring bonding, it is not designed for joinery because its too soft and flexible, anything that has stress on and it will give, especially at elevated temperatures (as its a synthetic rubber base)

PVA's on the other hand are very mobile molecules and are easily absorbed into the wood structure which is why when they are clamped together give a stronger than timber bond.

Most PVA's of one D rating will perform to the same as another. the D rating describes how water and heat resistant an adhesive it. Standard PVA ' such as regular aquadhere' are D2, that means non cross linked and if you dried a film out and put it in water would re-emulsify. A D3 or 'cross limked' PVA will soften in water but not dissolve, meaning in humid conditions or on damp timber will not release. A D4 product 9usually a 2 part system' has an extra resin in making it resistant to high temperature and water though for most appliaction is overkill.

All PVA's will generally give you the same strength bond, in al the testing i have done their is little difference between one and another, the only difference is the solids content - some have more water than others but besides that their really is little to choose except good marketing

PU are very good - though they bond in a different way they dont soak into the fibres however they form a really strong bond that is water resistant but the isocyanates in it can cause health problems, and the bonds are very rigid . Their is no need to spray water on - timber has enough moisture to cure any PU


Cross linked describes the action of the glue, it means that it forms into 'strands' and forms a web with the strands feeding through each other, all of this is a microscopic process so don't look for it happening, it will be just a yellow gloop on a piece of wood to the naked eye.
Gorilla glue is not available here as far as I am aware and the jig you have sounds like a Veritas honing jig, a lot of us have them and swear by them, they do a damned good job.
The polyurethane glue described is expensive and not neccessary for what you are doing, it has a limited shelf life once opened, it is applied to one surface and the other surface is lighty sprayed with water then the two joined and clamped.
Great for outdoor furniture but an uneccessary expense otherwise.
Titebond have this glue too and had MIK thought you would have needed it they woul;d have pointed you at it.
Titebond is a favourite of mine and I use different types for different applications.

[blockhed]

:D
hello brit_in_oz !
hope ya like it down here.
thanks for the technical info.
i used the Titebond 111 today and it looks like it's the best adhesive i've ever used. i used sash clamps to join, and i had to clamp 2 boards at a time. it appeared to be rock solid in around ten minutes.(no gaps at all)
i left them clamped overnight.
regards
blockhed
:D

[Iain]

If you want to see how good it is glue twp pieces of time together along the edge, wait 24 hours then smash them apart with a hammer, guarantee the glue line will be intact and the timber will break.

[Wongo]

Iain, I have done that to an off-cut from a newly joined panel so many times and the wood breaks first every time.


brit_in_oz, adhesive chemist huh, must be a sticky job. :D

blockhed, you know the jig. A router sits on a flat panel and runs on a pair of straight edges.

[blockhed]

:D
ok thanks for that guys.
i'm popping out there now to make that jig.
regards
blockhed
:D

[Fossil]

Should be a nice strong top when you are done. I made two solid benches for my workshop a few years ago using 10 x 2 oregon. I dowled it to the bench frame with 1/2" dowels evey 8" or so around the perim, and a few down the guts. Looks good, and is super strong.
Just thought I would share this as another option for you. :)