Wanted

[Wild Dingo]

Okay look all this bullshyte about boats has me drained finally... so after some 10 years of looking searching buying plans gathering knowledge and prepareing for a boat build of my own... life has me stuffed... so aside from buggaring off to the mine of Friday for a two week stint (yep finally its definantely Friday.... mmm for now? bloody buggars change their minds like... well you fill it in!) anyway Ive decided to ask a weird sorta question and see what comes of it... nothing ventured nothing gained only dumb question is an unasked question that sorta thing

Anyway!! Im lookin for a boat... yep... thats right Im looking for a boat... a dooerupper project boat... it must be wooden... dont ask me why maybe its the romance the emotion the asthetics whatever wood of choice... preferably a sail boat can be anywhere between 20ft and 40ft length and can either have or not have all the trimmings... Id prefer an old say pre 1930 boat as I like them far more than the newer ones just more style in my book

This will be a long term project for me and a slow get it right first time one... I have the room to keep her undercover for as long as it takes I have the tools to do anything that needs doing I have the wherewithall to keep going till its done...

How much? well preferably as a project boat free... now before you go off your rockers sayin theres no such thing as a free boat there actually is... theres many a boat sittin dryin out and dying in sheds all round this country and therefore they need help... I want to offer that help!... previous owners have free reign of helping with sanding sanding sanding and yet more sanding lifting heavy timbers etc also first sail on relaunch

Soooo... anyone got a free woodenboat sittin around? :cool:

[onthebeachalone]

Would it be a problem if it was in Brisbane, and it cost some money?

I know someone who (I think) has a 24foot carvel planked sloop for sale. He was looking for $20k but I think he's down to about $5k

Also, a friend of mine died recently with a partly built Hartley TS16 in the garage. His widow would like to sell it.

Let me know if you want more details in either of these.

[Wild Dingo]

Thanks OTBA :cool:

Yes I think once road transport is taken into consideration from Brissy Qld to Bunbury WA it becomes a major problem sadly they both sound like VERY honest and good candidates :(

I was and remain hopefull that one of my WA cousins will chime in... I know the boats are out there around Bunbury itself Busselton Albany even up north a bit to Geraldton or even at a pinch east to Kalgoorlie and Esperance would be great.. but interstate offers up a major hurdle ie: the money to hire a lowloader for an east west trip with its associated nightmareish fuel costs to deal with just now :mad:

Thanks for the offer though mate... maybe someone else in Brissy or nearby reading this will give you a hoi and help them out... be bloody perfect if it was here!! I think given the prices youve quoted I could maybe just about almost convince her highness to let me take both off their hands which would make us all happy:cool: ... well other than her highness that is:o ... gets quite seasick poor baby :rolleyes: in the bath!! :eek: :D

Free would be the ultimate ;) but if I have to pay for a project boat that needs a lot of work Id like not to have to pay too much you know? enough will be spent gettin her up to seaworthy... anyway as I say Thank you :cool:

[onthebeachalone]

Look a bit further north and you might end up with a lugger!:o

[Wild Dingo]

Now wouldnt THAT be the ducks knuts!! :cool:

[Boatmik]

Howdy Shane,

I can't stop the BoatBuildingPsychologist from coming out ...

Where is your priority - do you see getting the boat on the water as the important thing - or is the process of building more important and it doesn't particularly matter if it doesn't get in the water?

Does it have to be something historic - or is it a question of just falling in love with something - or do you see yourself with your hand on the tiller heading off somewhere for a couple of hours or much, much longer.

I know people of both persuasions - and like them both - so which one are you?

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

Wife and I have a running joke. The worst thing that can happen with a boat building project is that you eventually finish it.

[TK1]

Hi,

Good luck on your quest...surely there's a boat out there looking for some TLC withyour name on it.

Don't discount the Trading Post and other papers. I look occaisionally and recently - I was a bit slow - there was a free 30' sailboat in Melbourne in the Trading Post. Seaworthy but needed some repairs, came with hardstand and about 9 months rent paid on the space it was located.

Nearly broke my skull whipping the phone up to my head but I got in too late.

So they're out there...WoodenBoats mag always brings a tear to my eye with their "Boats for Free" listing in the classifieds...free ChrisCraft cruisers, etc.

We'll all await the pics when you get it and if I ever get to WA will help wild a sander for the day :)

Regards,
Darren

[stevebaby]

An enquiry to the Chief Harbour Master about the disposal of abandoned boats may yield results.
Maritime NSW auctions boats abandoned on moorings.Most of them are fish reefs waiting to happen but the occasional bargain turns up.
Good luck with your first boat...you will post plenty of pics I hope?

[Daddles]

Wife and I have a running joke. The worst thing that can happen with a boat building project is that you eventually finish it.

Of course it's a joke, it's an impossible dream :eek: Hell, I can't even imagine the time when I'll get to START on mine and she's sitting in me front yard :(

Richard

[Boatmik]

... and she's sitting in me front yard :(

Richard



Which "she"?

[black1]

hey wild dingo, why dont ya look in the "Quokka" as there is sometimes boats for free in there. ya shold be able to get it at a newsagent and they have a website http://www.quokka.com.au/template.php/180c2cc2670ccd974267194e2fa6c950/search

:cool:

[Wild Dingo]

Change of crew meant a week of half a week early :cool:

So thanks for the responses people!! Cheers :cool:

Its not my first boat but rather my first BIG boat that Im after... see a few years back I built a canoeythingy a rather hodgepodge of several ply designs sourced over the years then did a restoration of an old 14ft timber fishing dinghy (read replacing and sistering everysinglefriggin frame and floor in the blasted thing!! sounds like I didnt enjoy it doesnt it? nah I did it was great seeing it float again) anyway as I say Im after a nice preferably 25-40ft sailboat of some vintage and I dont think I put in my other post that it needs to be an Aussie design!! :eek: yep that should blow a hole in the idea eh?!! :D What Id really really REALLY like is nice larger sized Couta boat or even at a pinch Id go for an old Halverson around 30-35ft... either or would be most excellent!! ;)

I lost all my plans in the flood of 2005 and she who demands my wallet and its contents has determined that I shall henceforth be denied access to any funds for boat plans for the present duration! :eek: flamin sheilas! :rolleyes: I mean... nah wont go there

Mik mate... I dont know where I fit in your criteria sorta in the middle I guess... Im passionate about building and its the journey that makes the ending worthwhile the ending in itself is a means to itself of getting me on the water but its the journey of making stuff of cutting and sanding and fitting that gets my fluids moving the end is a joy to stand and look and just mutter "damn that was great fun... next!" and move on
The one I intend on getting will be a long term as in 5 - 10 year project as it doesnt affect me so much when its complete but rather that I complete it.

I hopefully will "retire" HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D in about 4 years from working for other people and be in a position just work at what I love... ala boats and woodwork mainly boats well actually probably just boats!!

Will check out boat the traderboat and the Quokka... best Ive seen over recent times in the quokka was one I missed by about 100 klicks and an hour was a nice 30ft clinker down in Albany for 4000 but sigh as I said I missed it by about an hours travel rang him on the way and by the time Id got to the 100klick from Albany and rang him again it had gone... sad but true... sigh :(

Anyways cheers mates!!:cool:

[Boatmik]

it needs to be an Aussie design!! :eek:

Mik mate... I dont know where I fit in your criteria sorta in the middle I guess... Im passionate about building and its the journey that makes the ending worthwhile the ending in itself is a means to itself of getting me on the water but its the journey of making stuff of cutting and sanding and fitting that gets my fluids moving the end is a joy to stand and look and just mutter "damn that was great fun... next!" and move on
The one I intend on getting will be a long term as in 5 - 10 year project as it doesnt affect me so much when its complete but rather that I complete it.


Glad on the Aussie thing - will be nice to see something preserved and used for another extended period.

But back to being a boat cycologist (my spelling goes daft whenever I answer your posts!) - lots of people get confused about whether they are doing the process to be builders or doing it to be a user.

Having a clear idea which one (or what mix) you are at every stage is really important - otherwise you can end up with lots more work than you need to do.

Dingo knows this I am sure - he's done lots of solid work - but I've seen something like the following occur a few times too often

Person buys an old skiboat - motor needs an overhaul but will start OK. Hull leaks a fair bit. There are a couple of delaminated areas of deck. Needs Paint all over.

Speak to the person a week later - they have pulled the engine out - taken off the manifolds and head/s and carbies to have a better look - ripped the deck off - pulled out the seats and floorboards dashboard and electrics - turned the hull over and burned the paint off

They feel a sense of magnificent accomplishment - but I look and think - they NOW have a hull shell only - it now requires almost all the labour of building a NEW boat and all the gear being removed from the boat starts to deteriorate, change shape, stop working etc.

This might be fine if this is the sort of project that the person wants to do - but if their big thing is using the boat ... it is just a pile of junk - and where I am sure both Dingo and I fall into line - another bit of OZ boating history will end at the tip cut into little pieces.

And all they needed to do was get the engine tuned, fix the leaks, replace some sections of deck (sometimes replacing the whole deck can be faster if there are many), paint it and go boating.

Boats that are USED never end up being taken to the tip.

So before buying the boat and at every other decision point you have to remember which one you are.

User or builder?

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Well Doctor Mik thank you for that... its good to have you on our show... Sorry it took so long but we had to get rid of that yank git Doctor Phil the dill but thats okay... Im glad your here arent we audience?!!

prompter from the right holding board saying "Cheer"

prompter from the left holding board saying "Clap"

Mad intense cheering and clapping from the raptured audience :cool:

Now Doctor Mik... can I just call you Doc Mik? yes? okay then so Doc I will simply ask a few questions which you can answer with your usual wit and brillance when you get your own syndicated newwork show

prompter from right holding board saying "OoooYaa!"

Audience stands cheering and going "OOOYAA!"

whats it like bein a "boat cycologist"?

why do so many get stuck at the boat plan buying stage?

why do so many take so long to build a boat? some taking 15 or more years to build a small -20ft dinghy why would they do that? I mean a small dinghy surely shouldnt take more than a year or so of weekend warrior work for most but often runs out to many more do you as a boat cologist have an answer for that?

With the plethoria of boat designs and boat designers out there today why would someone who in other areas of life is a modern thinker hark back to designs of the early 19th century or earlier? Surely as you and I both know thats rife with trouble!

prompter from the left with board "gasp"

Without a designer who one can approach contact or whatever how does one get feedback on how theyre going?

When just as easily they could simply contact a living designer and have one drawn up specifically for them?

Also designs from earlier years were often drawn up without any consideration for the home builder and more often than not the drawings were very limited in their content, so how can a home builder knowingly buy with intent to build plans from a long dead designer with only limited information contained in the 4 sheets of drawings they recieve from some obscure museum?

On that matter its usually some foreign museum!

prompter from the left "NO!"

audience screams "NO!!!"

Yes and more often than not some foreign designer!!

audience "SHAME"

Prompter starts to loose the plot looking for the board saying "shame" and quickly writes another on a peice of floating dunny paper "NO ADLIBBING!!!" and holds it up to the audience with a scrowlling look

audience get up on their feet yelling as one scrowling and yelling "NO ADLIBBING!!! NO ADLIBBING!!! NO ADLIBBING!!!"

Another thing!! Hold on there hold on!!! quiet please settle down!!! thank you audience thank you... nearly got away from us there Doc Mik hahaha... okay why is it that the most easily available designs are from American designers from places like the Peabody museum Mystic Seaport or from such as the Woodenboat magazine store?

Where are the great Aussie designs hidden!! why isnt there a collective book of Aussie designs? with contacts!

audience as one stomping loudly "YEAH GIVE US THE AUSSIE BOATS!!!"

I realize that some time back someone over east got the gumption up and did do a book on aussie woodenboats with some lines drawings drawings of the many old time Aussie boats... but sadly they left out how to get a hold of the ruddy plans... ahem excuse me Doc Mik but that sort of thing just isnt good enough you know? Surely if your going to offer up a book with long gone designs and names of builders or designers surely where one can get hold of them would have been eerr shall we say useful?

audience "Yeah give us the Aussie boats!!"

I mean for instance how would one get hold of the plans for a Carina or a Albatross or even a simple Couta boat? the designs of David and Alan Payne?? this is information that should be readily available to any Aussie woodenboat nut surely!

audience in fine form now "Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi give us the Aussie boats!"

prompter sitting cradling his head as he realizes his jobs just gone south and he may as well be sailing... mmmm sailing suddenly he jumps up smiles hugely and buggars off followed closely by the audience

mmmm seems were alone Doc Mik... so why is it deamed a problem if one is more interested in the building process than the actual finishing process?

Why is the journey to complete the boat so all encompassing that the end result often fails to satisfy and the poor boat builder finds themself in such a quandry that he simply starts building another boat?

The work involved in a simple restoration can be immense depending on the level of finish the restorer aims for what drives one to want to restore an old worn out wooden boat

Why wouldnt one just simply start building a new one?

In your years as a boat cycologist have you come across that staggering heart rending problem of "boatwood confusionitis"? sorry for the veiwers boatwood confusionitis is that appaling affliction wherein some poor backyard boatbuilder has finally found and bought the design that takes their breath away from some far flung museum designed by some long dead designer who has demanded that the builder use some obscure timbers for the build! timbers available in some far flung corner of outter mongolia but totally out of the question in good old Aussieland, so the poor sods left tryin to figure out what to use instead of White Oak Elm Hickory or some such from our own timber selections! I mean Doc how does one then go about figuring out should I use say Spotted gum instead of Elm or should I use Jarrah maybe some Ironbark would do instead of Purpleheart... and so the poor boatbuilder is now stuck for years in a disastorous situation called boatwood confusionitis often the poor dopey buggar ends up tossing their hands up in frustration... but where does he find an Aussie boat design of the same vintage that takes his breath away??

Well thank you for your time today Doc Mik and I for one look forward to your syndicated show!!

mmmm well I would ask the audience to cheer but seems theyve all buggared off... look a sign!

Wanders over and has a read "gone sailin" and runs out the door yellin "Seeeya Doc!!" :D

[Wild Dingo]

So before buying the boat and at every other decision point you have to remember which one you are.

User or builder?

MIK

But Doc Mik why should one HAVE to be either?... Why cant one be both?... I mean I spend as much time sailing and mucking about in canoes and dinghys as I can and love it... but I also spend a fair bit of time mucking about building bits and bobs for various boats... so why cant one be both? it is possible no?

Ive also spent many many hundreds of dollars on plans and researching boats and all thing boats so does that put me into a separate catagory? since I enjoy all aspects does that make me totally lost within the defined areas of boat cycology? indefinably eccentric maybe?

mmm perhaps I simply fall into that obscure ecclectic form of woodenboat nut catagory that is indefinable by boat cycologists... perhaps Im just totally besotted and manic with my boatlust?

oooh Ive bought plans for boats ranging from 130+ year old Kosters to 1910 schooners fishing boats motor boats canoes kayaks skiffs everything from 12ft through to 40ft over $900 worht actually... all lost to that terrible flood of 2005 :( Ive build two small boats restored one and have the keel tiller and keel and ships wheel for another... but am still in a quandry of which to build!!

And hence the decision to find a project boat!!! That should do the trick I reckon!!;)

[HJ0]

Warning! Medical authorities warn that boat building can be harmful to your mental health.





HJ0 I'm low on bait, where are you myrnaboys.:D

[Wild Dingo]

Warning! Medical authorities warn that boat building can be harmful to your mental health.

Tis a well known affliction and a terrible one at that... there is no known cure and no known treatment that will ease the afflicteds situation... one if afflicted has no choice they cannot help themselves nor can anyone help them... they just are... :o


HJ0 I'm low on bait, where are you myrnaboys.:D

Bait is always available!!! :D

[Daddles]

Tis a well known affliction and a terrible one at that... there is no known cure and no known treatment that will ease the afflicteds situation

Rubbish, unlimited money will ease the situation nicely. Money buys workshop, tools, materials and the time to play as you wish. Mind, it doesn't 'cure' the condition, just makes it more bearable which, after all, is the only sensible approach.

Richard
poverty? I aspire to having that much money:D

[TK1]

:D :D :D

Forget boat-building Dingo, you should be in comedy script-writing! I'd stay home and watch Oprah if the episodes were so funny.

I will add my "hussah!" to your comments though about Oz boat designs...for me, the interest is in the building - the journey, not the destination, as it were - and even now building model boats, once they're built I don't spend much time looking at them, and some get sold or given away.

Same thing with the real one - I want the experience in building it, then once it's done I don't even know how often I'll use it, but if it's seaworthy, attractive and summer I'm sure it will get plenty of use. Would certainly accompany me on holidays. Mind oyu, if I get the time, space and money to build or restore a large boat, I'd happily circumnavigate the country!

BUT, although I like some US and UK designs - from WB mag, Glen-L, and many other sources which seem prolific "over there" I'd rather support a local and have something distinctly Australia. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be that many designs out here that are unique - not like some that scream "I'm a yank boat". Couta's, luggers and the like aside.

So in the end I will either compromise and go with a Duck Flat or other source of plans, or if money allows, get an overseas design and get a local designer to do an Aussie interpretation. At present i'm in the "plans search" stage and compiling a shortlist, then I'll see if any are Aussie ones and if not see what I can do about it.

If anyone wants to put together a book of Australian designers and plans - maybe the relevant shops can get together - I'd support it, both through buying it and I'd even be happy to help put it together. There you go Mik, an offer of free help if it comes to light!

Good luck in your search Dingo and I look forward to seeing what you find out there to restore...I'll start from scratch and we can compare notes - race oyu to the launching slip! :p

Regards,
Darren

[Daddles]

Watch this forum Darren - an exciting new fusion of David Payne and Mik Storer will be announced as soon as I get Mik's permission to start spreading the good news :D

Richard

[TK1]

Richard,

My breath is bated and the anticipation is tingling. I look forward to the design - 2 great designers and I have a couple of their vessels on my list. Maybe this will be the one I was waiting for! ;)

Regards,
Darren

[HJ0]

Oh 5hit my heads still on:eek:after making that mental health comment lol:D


HJ0 Whats a little insanity btw friends, long as they laugh at the joke lol;) :D

[Boatmik]

But Doc Mik why should one HAVE to be either?... Why cant one be both?... I mean I spend as much time sailing and mucking about in canoes and dinghys as I can and love it... but I also spend a fair bit of time mucking about building bits and bobs for various boats... so why cant one be both? it is possible no?
That's why I am a boating psychologist Dingo.

I only gave you two options so now you know exactly where you are in relationship to the two of them!!! Because you couldn't make my statement fit your sense.

A cunning plan (that doesn't involve rats)

That's what I want people to consider - and to keep in mind as they make their boatbuilding decisions.

Builder or user?

MIK (laughing up his sleeve)

[Boatmik]

Dingo,

I am being even more serious now. You have probably thought of it yourself but ...

I was looking at the restoration of "Vanity"
http://users.bigpond.net.au/Vanity/Vanity.htm
What a classy classic - even with that doghouse.

And was struck by the first paragraph. Have you contacted the Australian Register of Ships and seen if they know of anything that is going begging?

The Register generally mentions the last known location and condition of boats. And the workers there probably have a soft spot for the same stuff you do so might tend to remember it.

There is a link to Mori Flapan's website on the Vanity page.

So maybe there are a few classics out there sitting overlooked somewhere.

Maybe the people involved in the restoration of Vanity (or the other boats in the other links at the bottom of the Vanity page.

It might be possible to get somewhere with some leads from the Register, or rather, the staff that maintain it

Best Regards
MIK

[Wild Dingo]

aahh see now theres the preduckument!! cant make up me flamin mind!! :o sigh... neba ming eh! :p

Now as to Aussie designs and designers... mmmm Im in a bit of a quandry here... see there was a boat book bought out by the woodenboat mob over east and I was lucky enough to know a bloke in Georgia who liked me enough to send me a copy! :cool: and its got a few in there but the trouble I found with it was that it gave no blasted addresses for the lines they showed!! which not only made me :mad: but also rather :( cause although there are some beautiful and I do mean stunningly beautiful American designs out there I really HONESTLY am hanging out for an Aussie version and this blasted book showed at least 2 that took my fancy but do you think I can find a ruddy address to send away to get them? NOT A RUDDY CHANCE!!! :rolleyes:

Another prob I sorta have is the cost of plans in Aus... see now dont go all loopy on me here but I can get the plans for a 40ft schooner (some 60 sheets!!!) from the son of a designer in the US who is also a NA in his own right for less than I can get a design here! that phisses me off!! I mean in a way were contributing to our own demise here by simply out pricing the cost of ruddy plans so would be Ausssie boat builders source their plans ex US or UK... funny aint it? :rolleyes:

But our biggest problem is sourcing plans... seeing a range of design choices and making a selection and then purchasing them from the source... almost impossible :(

Okay... heres a thing... I want ahem I would like thats bedda... I would like to find the source of an Australian designed schooner say 28ft or even 40ft... now tell me where Id find one! See now I can right now point myself to a designer in Maine that has one of each available now the smaller 28fter is $800 US and the larger is $2000US... so now lets convert that to Aussie $ shall we? so going to Ebay and finding their converter thingy we find that the 28fter will cost $1,048Aus and the 40fter $2620Aus... I couldnt even get an Aussie designer (of some note mind) to do the damned numbers for the keel lead weights for the cost of the 28fter!! So what did I do? I sent it overseas to Nova Scotia and Maine to two professional and very busy NAs who did the numbers for me and within a month I had them all together!!! So why is this??? Its a part of the utter moribund rediculous stupidity of Aussie boats!! The total insanity of the manic destructive nature of the whole mad shamozzle of boatbuildingitis! :eek:

ooh one can get hold of people like Mike Waller and Rob Tayler very easily and their designs are well priced good people too... but unless your into those designs your stuffed!! :mad:

Where are the Aussie designs? Where are the Aussie designers? Where are those Aussies who create something of the beauty of a Fife or a Concordia a Coaster a CC Constellation or even an Elco? Where the blazes are the blighters!!!... I want Aussie originality I want Aussie timbers I want AUSSIE!!! :mad:

And so it goes :rolleyes: aahhh maybe theres naught for it but for me to build me redesigned luggar and hope all the numbers are crunched right or even build a Trixen (at 50ft a bloody lifetime project!! :eek: ) and Aussie designers be damned!! ;) gawd sometimes I bloody amaze myself at my ability to say things that phiss me or other people off :eek: ... ah well its a talent I guess :p

[Wild Dingo]

Hey now thats called cross posting I believe Doc Mik!!! ;)

Thanks for the tipoffs ol son!! :cool: Will be making contact AS we yarn! :cool:

Tis good to see you have a seriass side to ol fella cause we cant always be happy laughable chaps now can we!;) well some of us do try!!! :p

Have a good one!

[Boatmik]

Well Doctor Mik thank you for that... its good to have you on our show... Sorry it took so long but we had to get rid of that yank git Doctor Phil the dill but thats okay... Im glad your here arent we audience?!! :D
Dammit Dingo - I missed your magnum opus. Actually its too magnum to be a magnum.

Maybe Jeroboam Opus?

There is some good nutty stuff here - nutty - like hard and firm - solid - real - like a 'er nut. Not commenting on your sanity (I know you haven't got one.)

So let me go through the best of it.


why do so many get stuck at the boat plan buying stage?
why do so many take so long to build a boat?
It is the fear of looking like an idiot. Of getting into something that you can't extract yourself from.

That feeling of standing in the middle of class and saying some stupid non fitting answer with everyone looking at you with a mix of blame and pity.

That's why the whole boat thing feels so good at the end - THAT is what we are happy about - we have overcome our own sense of ignorance and limitation.

That's the door that opened for me when I joined a boatbuilding class with Duck Flat what seems like a thousand years ago now. They took away the burden of what materials - they took on the burden of where to build - they took on the burden of what to do if I got stuck.

They took away the problems so I could simply get on with what I wanted to do.

It's exactly like being a young child - the child balances its complete vulnerability with its complete trust in its parents - as it gets older it realises that the parents are pretty limited rather than the omnipotent beings we think they are - lots of us never quite recover from the shock of that discovery.

OK to jump a bit.

I've spent more time than I care to think about painting and maintaining other peoples boats (I build my own and dit it so I DONT have to!).

So picture me up at Midge's house one evening about a couple of months ago with a PD Racer on its side and me sitting on a stool varnishing the inside of the boat. Night and Late and Sitting are pretty poor preconditions for a good job.

Midge came in and saw how the interior of the boat was starting to give the glorious warm glow that is the special quality of varnish - so different from the epoxy underneath.

He asked me "How can you do that - I can do it in perfectly lit conditions and it will look like crap - I'll leave bits unvarnished all over the place?"

My answer was "Because I don't care". And it is true - I have done so much varnishing that I know there is no problem I can't get out of and that any coat I put on will add to the protection of the boat even if I have to put a better one over the top.

So I am not worried by the result - so I can just do it in a very natural and easy way.

Ask me to make a dovetail drawer and I will fall in a gibbering heap!!!!

That's why I build boats - to avoid dovetail drawers.

NO - I won't be stopped by dloody dovetail drawers - they can't be that hard - or maybe I can do something with epoxy and fillets - or what about biscuits and the crosslinked PVAs.

This is what I have learned - that there is always some route around the problem and with a bit of thinking there is possibly even an elegant solution.

You know all about this Dingo because you struggled with restoring that dinghy. That's heaps harder than building it from scratch - true grit - fought like a man. er I mean person of the male persuasion.


With the plethoria of boat designs and boat designers out there today why would someone who in other areas of life is a modern thinker hark back to designs of the early 19th century or earlier? Surely as you and I both know thats rife with trouble!

Without a designer who one can approach contact or whatever how does one get feedback on how theyre going?

When just as easily they could simply contact a living designer and have one drawn up specifically for them?

Also designs from earlier years were often drawn up without any consideration for the home builder and more often than not the drawings were very limited in their content, so how can a home builder knowingly buy with intent to build plans from a long dead designer with only limited information contained in the 4 sheets of drawings they recieve from some obscure museum?

On that matter its usually some foreign museum!
Yes and more often than not some foreign designer!!
Back to my original point. A Builder (to new people the terms in bold have been defined earlier) will know how to work through the above and will regard it as the thrill of the chase - and know that whatever they learn will increase their knowledge and experience - which is a big part of their real motivation - they just love that stuff.

A User who undertakes any of the above is in deep trouble - or even worse - someone might find out that they are a user part way through the project - with a 47ft schooner in frame down the side of their house. For them the knowledge is a means for getting the boat in the water - it is not an end as it is for the Builder.


okay why is it that the most easily available designs are from American designers from places like the Peabody museum Mystic Seaport or from such as the Woodenboat magazine store?
We have been through this one together
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=29957


Where are the great Aussie designs hidden!! why isnt there a collective book of Aussie designs? with contacts!

I realize that some time back someone over east got the gumption up and did do a book on aussie woodenboats with some lines drawings drawings of the many old time Aussie boats... but sadly they left out how to get a hold of the ruddy plans... ahem excuse me Doc Mik but that sort of thing just isnt good enough you know? Surely if your going to offer up a book with long gone designs and names of builders or designers surely where one can get hold of them would have been eerr shall we say useful?

I can tell you who did most of the drawings for that book - a young man (then) by the name of D. Payne. PM me if you have a specific enquiry in mind.


mmmm seems were alone Doc Mik... so why is it deamed a problem if one is more interested in the building process than the actual finishing process?

Why is the journey to complete the boat so all encompassing that the end result often fails to satisfy and the poor boat builder finds themself in such a quandry that he simply starts building another boat?

The work involved in a simple restoration can be immense depending on the level of finish the restorer aims for what drives one to want to restore an old worn out wooden boat

Beautifully put.

Look, one of my favourite people in the universe was Bob Kitchen - now gone. Bob was my boss for many years at the CYCA when I was working on the slipways on and off. Gnarly ex Sapper (engineer) Sgt - gruff, tough, would do anything to help any of his men out. About 5ft 8 and about the same across the chest. He was in his late 60s and had the classic redhead thing of losing his rag and punching out the nearest inert object (usually) which was (usually) the 60 tonne slipping cradle. You could hear the blows from out in the middle of the marina.

He got into sailing because he was stationed in Japan immediately after WW2. Some bright spark had bought up the whole Sydney VS (Vaucluse Senior) fleet and moved it to a warehouse - but hadn't been bright enough to tell anyone in Japan about it. Bob broke into the warehouse and put a boat together out of the bits of several and then spent every leave day sailing by himself around The Inland Sea camping overnight in the boat. Can you imagine what that was like post war? Meeting the local people.

Anyway when I knew him Bob had scraped together enough dough to buy a wonderful Cec Quilkey built Ocean Racer that had proved a dog during the 1970 Admiral's cup trials. And was fixing it up.

It was way beyond his resources in lots of ways but he was making every bit. He made molds for the (what are they called) water and exhaust mixing boxes and made them out of fibreglass rather than buy the 30 dollar plastic ones. He turned all his own skin fittings. They had gone a little "cheap" by Bob's standards when they were finishing the boat and had skimped on quality in some of the bolts. Bob had to replace them - he would head off to use the lathe, carrying some bit of 316 stainless he had scrounged up out of someones propellor shaft or somewhere.

Stay with me guys - this is important stuff - more important than find out what happened in the big brother house tonight.

He had finished painting most of the outside of the boat when he discovered that all the screws in the hull skin were 304 stainless - cold moulded construction - so decided to rip the paint off pull them all out - they were about 9 inches apart over a 42 ft hull - millions of the buggers and he refastened her with the ones that he MADE.

He spent at least 15 years ripping and rebuilding the boat and by that time had moved it (by trailer) up to Lake Macquarie where he lived alone with his rather threadbare German Shepherd.

When I told one of the hot boat riggers ot the CYC that I had dropped in on Bob he said "Bob has really lost the plot". I had to tell the guy that Bob was about ten times happier than himself.

I am sure that at times he was lonely and the boat got to know the feeling of his fists - but ... there endeth the story.

Just be grateful I cut it down to essentials OK - there is much more.

Next Question Please.


Why wouldnt one just simply start building a new one?

Continued in Part 2

[Boatmik]

Why wouldnt one just simply start building a new one?

Just the wrong question man, just the wrong question - maybe because that's the way its gotta be.

I always try to help people make sensible choices - but so often the sensible choice is not the right choice.


some poor backyard boatbuilder has finally found and bought the design that takes their breath away from some far flung museum designed by some long dead designer who has demanded that the builder use some obscure timbers for the build! timbers available in some far flung corner of outter mongolia but totally out of the question in good old Aussieland, so the poor sods left tryin to figure out what to use instead of White Oak Elm Hickory or some such from our own timber selections! I mean Doc how does one then go about figuring out should I use say Spotted gum instead of Elm or should I use Jarrah maybe some Ironbark would do instead of Purpleheart... and so the poor boatbuilder is now stuck for years in a disastorous situation called boatwood confusionitis often the poor dopey buggar ends up tossing their hands up in frustration.
Look - I just don't get that problem - I don't do "proper" boatbuilding.

If someone wants to build a Rosinante out of Kirri without ribs (replacing them with inside and outside layers of bi-axial glass - hey no probs. I am so far beyond worrying about species - I just deal with densities and gluability - different world.

But when the owner starts talking to me about how he wants to put birdsmouth spars on her - I'll whip his sorry a*s - it is those lovely slender LFH hollow boxes or nothing. If he wants an extra inch of headroom I am happy to sneak the sole lower (it might be just possible) but if he wants to monkey with the sheer or the coachroof I will torch her myself. (or maybe sneak down there at night with a circular saw set to the planking thickness ...). Mention an inboard and he and his family are dead meat.

But at the same time as I say I am not fussed about the species I know that there is no full length timber left on this planet for the planking of this, the lightest and slightest of 29 footers.


.. but where does he find an Aussie boat design of the same vintage that takes his breath away??

Find the plan or boat or photo and go from there. If the full smile and misty eyes are not there settle for something that will bring you a bit of a grin. But just make sure it is not so big that you won't be able to knock it over before you find your true love.

Come on guys, theres a great opening for a witty retort - come on someone.

MIK

And there's still things to talk about it Dingo's other big post above

Sit Doggie
I said Sit
Staaaay - wait for the signal.

[bitingmidge]

So picture me up at Midge's house one evening about a couple of months ago with a PD Racer on its side and me sitting on a stool varnishing the inside of the boat. Night and Late and Sitting are pretty poor preconditions for a good job.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=20182&d=1141304637

I went all misty-eyed then, and I did now too!
:o

I happen to know that Mik cares more than he pretends not to, but his words were well taken, and I've used them often since in a few other context's as well!

P

[Boatmik]

Varnish fumes - where's my handkerchief.

[Boatmik]

The hot doggie howled at the heavens: I really HONESTLY am hanging out for an Aussie version and this blasted book showed at least 2 that took my fancy but do you think I can find a ruddy address to send away to get them? NOT A RUDDY CHANCE!!! :rolleyes:
I think it is the first book that was ever put out by the NSW Wooden Boat Association. Contact them. Most of the best drawings were by David Payne who had a sideline in using his great detail drafting ability to produce items for household display - plans you can hang on a wall. Gorgeous stuff. But also (perhaps) an indication of where the money is! As I said PM me if you want to contact him.


Another prob I sorta have is the cost of plans in Aus... see now dont go all loopy on me here but I can get the plans for a 40ft schooner (some 60 sheets!!!) from the son of a designer in the US who is also a NA in his own right for less than I can get a design here! that phisses me off!! I mean in a way were contributing to our own demise here by simply out pricing the cost of ruddy plans so would be Ausssie boat builders source their plans ex US or UK... funny aint it? :rolleyes:

I am just about to put the prices of my plans up! :-)

It is simply the size of the marketplace. Despite having quite a good web presence still 90% of my plans are sold here.

Compare me to an American Designer who is selling 90% of his plans in North America.

North America Population 298 + 33 = 331 million
Australian population = 20 million.

I would be looking pretty good if my turnover increased by 1500%.

That's why David Payne works three days a week at the Maritime Museum.
That's why Murray Isles works on the Fishing boats.
They all do other things to survive.

You want cheaper plans - you won't have ANY designers here Dingo.

We have already talked about how Alan Payne who designed two pretty revolutionary boats for the America's Cup had to spend his life designing barges and air con ducts in bulk ore carriers and doing inclining tests on cargo ships.

The guy was talented enough to have had a portfolio like Bolger.
Bolger has 800 designs to his credit - so he has learned heaps about mixing aesthetics with function with seakeeping with volume. But Alan Payne perhaps has a portfolio of 10 or 15 marketable designs - boats popular enough to keep selling. He was never able to hit his designing straps and really get going - never able to refine his skills.
_______________________________________________

ARE PLANS EXPENSIVE?

And are the plans expensive anyhow? Some of them are - some of them aren't and very little of it is to do with price.

If a person can build the boat efficiently and it works well - the plans have succeeded and that is worth much more than $70 or $150 which is the average sort of range for plans.

You can spend the same amount and find the boat hard or impossible to build and then quickly find out that the performance and fitness for task was really about looking through the designer's rose tinted glasses - then the plans WERE NOT worth that same $70 to $150

When I was employed by Duck Flat in the late 80s and early 90s I quickly realised that designers were pretty patchy with their plans. We were selling heaps of plans all over Australia and built up a cupboard of extra information we had to add so people could actually build the boats. That's the use of businesses like Duck Flat - a good filler in of details when the designer is too busy or too remote to contact.

This is not much use for Dingo - he has a similar level of knowledge himself - but for someone further down the food chain ...
_________________________________________


But our biggest problem is sourcing plans... seeing a range of design choices and making a selection and then purchasing them from the source... almost impossible :(

Okay... heres a thing... I want ahem I would like thats bedda... I would like to find the source of an Australian designed schooner say 28ft or even 40ft... now tell me where Id find one! See now I can right now point myself to a designer in Maine that has one of each available now the smaller 28fter is $800 US and the larger is $2000US
I think most people find sourcing plans less hard than you Dingo.

You are in a corner. Traditional boats with traditional construction. I am glad you are interested in them - I CARE about those boats too - but you are probably the only bloke in Australia looking for one now.

OK - maybe there are 10 of you - but you each want different boats for different purposes and then you all have to fall in love a bit too.

Do the numbers - who is going to have drawn up something ready for you?

No Stock Plans - options of new designs are limited.

So go through the back catalogues of stuff. Because there is only one customer a decade for a particular boat and there is no impetus for the family of a long dead designer to keep the plans organised or to copy them.

Going back to the example of Alan Payne - 10 to 15 marketable designs. If a designer has 10 or 15 designs there is not going to be much turnover of plans either - as good as they are - things will probably start to become quite disorganised after 50 years.

Compare with the American designers who have output of 300 or more designs during their full time working lives - there are 300 plans to sell - into a bigger marketplace too - so its worth someones while to keep 'em in a form where thay can earn money from them.

So no historical plans in good order
(but really Dingo - just get the body and sailplans and you can work out the rest - you KNOW this stuff so well)

So why don't we cut to the chase. This is where you see how expensive those American designers you quote are really.

You are after a new CUSTOM plan. It might look like an old boat - but freshly drawn up.

American Designers charge between 5 and 12 percent of the final building cost of the boat for custom designs - the cost is of the boat PROFESSIONALLY BUILT. The cheaper rate generally means they will field phone enquiries - the more expensive end they will be visiting the site revising drawings and generally working in with the builder.

So Dingo ... a 35ft schooner (I wouldn't consider one much shorter - not enough length to spread the sail).
Let's say a pro-built $300,000
That means the designer gets $15000 at the basic end of service level. And that's in US$.

So you can't afford $15,000+ for custom plans if you are already complaining about the cost of stock ones.


ooh one can get hold of people like Mike Waller and Rob Tayler very easily and their designs are well priced good people too... but unless your into those designs your stuffed!! :mad:

Where are the Aussie designs? Where are the Aussie designers? Where are those Aussies who create something of the beauty of a Fife or a Concordia a Coaster a CC Constellation or even an Elco? Where the blazes are the blighters!!!... I want Aussie originality I want Aussie timbers I want AUSSIE!!! :mad:

If you don't burst something first! :-)

You are getting out of proportion here.
ELCO - they never designed many boats (they only had a couple of hullshapes and stretched things around a bit) and the plans were for their own use. They were never available to the public.
Concordia - what? about 5 designs of their own (the rest of their building work were for designs by Luders or Reimers) - and they weren't selling the plans either - you had to buy a boat.

Even I have a bigger and more varied portfolio than these examples. It is simply a problem of marketplace size again. If I had 15 times the sales for the same amount of work I would have an office and an employee, a house, a boatshed by the water.

I wouldn't be living my life flitting from state to state and hanging around with jazz musicians, architects and buddhists.

Or maybe I still would - but they would have to come to the BACK door - right!?


And so it goes :rolleyes: aahhh maybe theres naught for it but for me to build me redesigned luggar and hope all the numbers are crunched right or even build a Trixen (at 50ft a bloody lifetime project!! :eek: ) and Aussie designers be damned!! ;) gawd sometimes I bloody amaze myself at my ability to say things that phiss me or other people off :eek: ... ah well its a talent I guess :p
Nah - won't me off - I understand you too well now - and want to see you get to where you gotta go.

Yep - my suggestions would be.

Have a really good look round for a plan or a rebuild that you can dig. As I said earlier - plans don't need to be complete - if successful boats have been built in the past that is all you need on that side.

Body plan (or offsets) is essential. As is a decent profile and sailplan. That's all you really need.

Loft it out.

You can use Herreshoff's or Nevin's Rules or even that goddamawful USL code to work out the size of each bit.

And you are on your way.

Two bits of advice.

1/ The size of boat which people cruising the world have been most happy with is in the 32 to 37ft range (LOA). If you want long, elegant overhangs, they don't add too much to the expense - so I will let you go over a bit. Anyway - overhangs are a boatowner's gift to the rest of the world. You go up to 50 ft and the cost will be the cube of (50/36) = 2.6 times the smaller boat - so will maintenance - so will mooring fees - so will sails - so will fuel consumption.

2/ If you can't find something perfect within 6 months do something that won't suck up years of your life - a short building commitment - but will get you out there on a regular basis.

Doc Mik out.

Ok Doggie - you have been very good waiting like that - now ........

Geddim - GO DOGGIE GO.

[Boatmik]

One thing I would like to add to my end suggestion.

If you do go with a "fill in" project - keep it as small and simple as will match what you want to do.

As Bolger said - there are two sorts of good boats. Those you live aboard and those you stick on the car roof to take home.

Wise words for everyone.

MIK

[Daddles]

and those you stick on the car roof to take home.

Dammit, I'm going to have to buy a cadillac - about the only thing long enough :rolleyes:

Richard

btw, don't fooled into thinking that Mik types all these posts himself - you should see his secretary :p

[Wild Dingo]

Man that was a truely brilliant lengthy dissertation!! :eek:

But see now Doc Mik... we have achieved what I at least set out to achieve!! :cool: Not initially but consequently... That is to make information available from a reliable source! See sometimes fellas and sheilas spend years askin themselves these same questions and never gain a good solid answer... in that single major discourse of yours you have answered many a searchers questions! Bloody brilliant :cool:

I often get these discussions going to simply get the info out there so others can gain insight and knowledge of why. Before this Ive not had one response that covers it so well

Secretary or his own self Richard it was a great dissertation! cudos to whoever deserves them ;)

I have contacted Mari and had an inital response and am presently waiting for his considered and researched answers so thank you for that tip mate... if Im lucky and if his trip West coincides with my week off from the mine I intend to hopefully meet up with him.

Now!! Im still waitin for that ruddy project boat!!:rolleyes:

[Daddles]

Now!! Im still waitin for that ruddy project boat!!:rolleyes:

Remember my Samar Shane? That big pile of firewood that everyone was so rude about? She's here if you want her. On a good trailer. She's not what you're looking for but she'd make a great day cruiser for you and the hoons, and a very good fishing boat. My problem is that I can't see me getting anywhere near her in the next year or two and you know what it's like with old boats sitting out in the rain. If someone wants to do her up properly, I'd rather they had her than have her rot on my front lawn until I'm able to attend to her.

www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=21438 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=21438)

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=12915&d=1126664727

Richard

[Boatmik]

Dammit, I'm going to have to buy a cadillac - about the only thing long enough :rolleyes:

Richard

"Brevity is the soul of wit".

But it is usually the end of conversation. (and if you remember which character spoke that quote :-)

A truly lengthy monologue works almost as well.

[bitofascallywag]

well if i was uder the weather i may of understood all that dialouge a little better,but hey i will admit i am totally confused...why not measure a boat,that takes your fancy and convert and think and convert and try,or am i being naive?

[Wild Dingo]

Well me ol pimple mate... I dont know about that... see first Ive done that and all it does is...

a) confuse the buggary out of you
b) make you question your sanity
c) make others seriously question your version of reality
d) make you aware of your limitations regarding math and equasions and other such cuss words
e) you find you send the numbers for checking to all corners of the world cause...

1) If youve got it wrong and build it...
i) youve wasted a shyteload of time
ii) youve wasted a shyteload of timber
iii) youve wasted a shyteload of money

2) If youve got it wrong and built it and start sailing
i) yours and everyone who sails on her's safety is at risk
ii) you could be cause for a major search and rescue
iii) It could be a major source of embarressment to you and yours if it slips to the bottom of the harbor at the launch or turns turtle before youve even tossed the champers at its bow!

Of course one could do the numbers and draw her out all sweet as a nut and then loft her down till shes sweet and fine then gather the timbers together and build her... and go sailing on a boat they designed and built themselves and trust the gods that they got it right... some have actually done so

When I redrew a luggar down to a size I believed was more realistic to single hand with maybe the occasional crew (26ft) and checked the numbers of the offsets they appeared dead on the money and for the most part were with only a few diagonals slightly out which were quickly and easily found by doing a model... where I had probs was with the keel what weight would be required down there in a lead keel would it be better to use lead ingots in the bilge concrete or even iron and how much was required to keep her boyant and in the mast up condition required for sailing unlike submarining which requires as you know that the mast be in the upside down position...

personally I have a penchant to be upright and with the sun and wind in my face rather than head down in millions of gallons of salty brine!!... and then the question of the masts how big a main mast? what size the sails? and so the questions grew as the further along I went

A few things I quickly learnt from that redraw were...
1) I will never be a NA or boat designer!
2) I now have a great respect for the work of these people
3) ITS NOT BLOODY EASY!!!
4) the amount of work that goes into a design is huge

It made it easier to understand the cost of plans from a designer... although the disparage in actual pricing still confuses me... I can now appreciate why the costs are as they are.

And all weve touched on here is the plans!!! then you have to move on to other things what timbers to use weight ratios laden vs unladen weights trailerability issues sails etc etc etc... its really not as simple as it may initially seem to design a boat... well a small two or four sheet ply isnt brain science I guess but once you move onto larger boats and in particular large timber sailing boats its an increadible amount of work figuring it all out

And mate if your going to head into water deeper than a phart you better make sure the numbers all line up!! cause its when they dont that trouble exacerbates tenfold and so the increased risk to self and family friends increases manifestly... enter the NA or boat designer... they who spend their hours crunching the numbers of every thing that goes into making the boat what it should be.

I guess what has evolved with this thread is the parting of knowledge... the tapping of Miks mind to impart that knowledge to others... its always been a burning question within the minds of people why boat designers plans are so expensive... but to be honest they dont cost that much when you consider the costs you will be shelling out as you begin building

For example a bloke I know has the plans for the 40ft schooner I mentioned above and is halfway through what was meant to be a 5 year build which has just ticked over its 15th year at what was intended to be a $50000US cost that has blown out to well over $100,000US so far... so although seeming expensive initially the 2000 for those plans is miniscule comparitively and the plans are exhaustive running to over 60 sheets... that is for this particular design some are far less detailed and here I had plans for one of the most beautiful 40ft schooners designed back in 1910 that remains sailing today in Boston but the plans ran to exactly 4 sheets!! no real details just the bare info!! some go to increadible lengths with the plans some dont... but the time spent by the NA or designer to get them even to the 4 page stage is immense.... some even go so far as to make a book that goes with the plans to help you put it all together without stress or struggle its all laid out for you... others dont or didnt consider that since many are designed for professional builders who would as a first thing create a half model and straighten any discrepancies at that point and take the measurements for the lofting from the half model... actually if your going to build a boat its my belief that you SHOULD take the time and effort to create an acurate half model this will give you an exact scale rendition of the boat from which to see her in 3d before building begins... you can then on completion set the halfmodel to the bulkhead over the galley and proudly know that from that first build came what you sail or motor in... grand feeling making a half model

So see where I was heading by getting Mik to have a bit of a rant mate? firstly the fact that a NA has drawn the plans doesnt nessissarily mean there wont be some numbers out in the drawings all too often there are one or two that are an 1/8 or so out but they are found immeadiately upon lofting... it means the hard work of the drawings and numbers is done... you have to learn to read them draw them and then make the timber conform to them to build your boat... the cost of $2000+/- is really a very sound investment in your heading toward your ultimate goal

Trouble can be deciding which design from the horrendous plethoria of designs out there!!! the internet is a boat design searchers nightmare!

Okay Richard ol mate how we gonna get that baby over here?? You comin for a visit? Could be a new book in it for you!! "How I conquored my fear of the Nallabor nymph" or some such :D

[Daddles]

Okay Richard ol mate how we gonna get that baby over here?? You comin for a visit? Could be a new book in it for you!! "How I conquored my fear of the Nallabor nymph" or some such :D

Said baby is sitting on a perfectly useable trailer. She's here if you want her. I can even set the chain saw to her and send her over as bales of sawdust :D
Seriously mate, the trailer is a goodun but I reckon you'd have to come have a look at her to see how you'd want to handle it. The offers there mate, but I can understand the distance is a real problem

Richard

[bitofascallywag]

so who invented the boat at any rate...chinee,viking...or big christopher himself as a way to wipe out millions and rob the world of gold,

whoever it was did their own thing............and thank the lord invented travel upon the seas.......so therefore did any of those big name ship inventors say thank you.....no they did not it is akin to mooring/anchoring fees in my book and my book tells me to tell them to bash it where there sun dont shine boat pyscho analysis will be next and all i can say is a pox on the lot of you money grabbing bu ggers

[Wild Dingo]

ooooooohh geez me ol pimple!! talk about set the fox among the pligions!! :eek:

Mate... as I said many have designed and build perfectly sound boats... and no doubt enjoyed the hell out of them for many years in safety

And many are those that in years well gone by that decided to build a boat and simply set about doing so with what was at hand over the years generations continued what became a boatbuilding tradition and many of those travelled far and wide

I do think we often anulise and posture way too much... we worry and niggle far beyond the necessary... and procrastination has definantly been the death of many a searchers quest... just as confusion has stalled many a builders dream

Many designers even today never became qualified Bolger probably bein the most of note I believe Bueller another Al Mason yet another James Wharram another of the top of my noggin... yet I know they have all gained a massive world renown for safe beautiful designs (forgetting the brick and micro brick of Bolgers) so its achievable... ANYTHING is achievable... if one decides to hell with it and just gets stuck in

My thoughts on what I want are like so...
I want a resonably large sail boat 26 - 40ft (not too hard to resolve)
it has to be beautiful to my eye (this is a problem given my eclectic tastes)
it has to have the ability to sail far and wide
it has to have stability to take the hardest tides winds and waves
it has to be sturdy enough to make it to wherever I point her
It has to be sailable by one... with an occasional crew of 2

Now I KNOW I can draw what I want... I also KNOW that others have drawn what I like... I also KNOW that they have been built... so I KNOW it can be done

What I dont know... given Ive drawn what I like within certain reason... I know I can do that much what I dont know within that is whether or not the numbers are right with regard weight keel etc as I am totally bereft of any mathamatical sence... and its that that worries me... on paper she looks fine but do the sums and Ive no bloody idea!... so really I have a choice I can just say stuff it and go to with a vengence... or I can send a cheque for a thou or so dollars over seas or east to a NA to check the numbers... or I can buy a set of plans of what has already been done (ala Fife Peterson or Wharram... I did say eclectic tastes!!) and simply start... or I can find a project boat of similar proportions and set to... or I can simply buy one of the Fife's that are presently in the boatpoint site for sale... or?

Yes the Swedes build boats without plans for centuries and travelled far and wide in them Yes the Vikings built boats without plans for centuries and sailed conquored and travelled far and wide in them Yes the Chinese Arabs and Polynesians also did the same... but am I up to their abilities? and do I trust my own abilities that far? so the great unknown makes itself known!

As Ive said before procrastination is the great nemisis of the searcher... do I dont I? mmm this one or that one?... and hence my frustration!! and so hence the quest for a project boat... see my thoughts are like so... If I cant make my bloody mind up which design to build from scratch then rather than waste time continuing a search I would rather be restoring an old girl which would give me imeptise to build my own give me handson experience with a larger boat than Ive done before and so prepare the waters for the day I finally say "Stuff this THIS is the one!" and so build the dream I have had for so many years... commit the time money and effort after gaining the experience and hands on knowledge that can only come through doing... see where Im going me ol pimple?

This wasnt meant to phiss anyone off rather its evolved into a passage of knowledge and ideas... which is a good thing me thinks!... now whens that huon pine boat arriving again I seemed to have missed the manifest somewhere! ;)

Richard... mate can you toss a cover over her and keep her safe from the weather for awhile? Im planning a trip over in a few months time hopefully before Christmas... also is it possible to zap me a reminder pic or two? not that that over concerns me overly mate as if shes doable and Im able I'll snap her up!... hopefully whack her on deck of a larger one and chuck em both on a train carriage back here eh!! :D

[Wild Dingo]

Nix that request for pics Richard... duhhh head here just clicked your links :rolleyes:

Soooo whatcha done to her? eh? yer cleaned all that gunkamola outta there? yer taken all that paint off her? yer sorted anything out? come on mate youve had her awhile now so whatcha done to her? enquiring minds need to know!! well this one at least ;)

[bitofascallywag]

gee you fellows make me giggle at times,are you going to do anything in your life or just waffle on,gerr isbn0-87742-289-3 read and understand that book and you will be laughihg in my humble opinion...

[Daddles]

I haven't touched her Shane, working on the principal that she'll probably survive better left to her own devices rather than having half attempted work all over the place. I was going to get into her after I finished Sixpence but that's going to be a while and while I'm renting, the work'd be done on the front lawn which isn't the best, and I don't have any money which isn't a novel impediment but does tend to limit one's efforts.

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

Pimple me ol mate like boats and boat designs theres a veritble plethoria of books out there... Gerr being but one of many

Are we going to achieve anything in our lives? Well mate I guess that depends on what you mean by achieving and your reality of anything... I personally have achieved a shyteload in my life and this boat thing is but one more... and no doubt so have Mik (who is a boat builder and designer) and Richard (who is an author and a small boatbuilder) but mate unlike some I dont go rushing about like a chook with its head cut of when I decied to do something

I look into it I research it I gain as much knowledge as I can from those who actually have the knowledge and are will to impart it I also read copiously I then gather to me the tools and spacial things that I feel I will require to do the best possible job I then start gathering timbers and such... once done and the decision is made and its tally ho old chap!... but I like to know preciesley what Im into before I start... its also my time my money my effort and at the end of the day my and my families lives that will be placed aboard so I BETTER make bloody sure I get it right the first time!

Anul?? perhaps... being overly cautious? perhaps... being too flamin selective? definantly... but mate at the end of the day its going to be my boat and its my determination how I go about selecting and building her... others choose there reality I choose mine

Peter a mate in South Aus a man of few words found the design that he wanted very rapidly then he chose to not waste time and has gotten something like halfway through a 40ft boat with the barest of tools in a rough as guts shed in the SA bush... I have no doubt whatever that he will complete his boat and be sailin well before I am and have no doubt that he will build her solid and without fault...

Whereas I have now spent some 9 years researching designs gaining knowledge and tapping minds from around the world... and have from the many thousands of designs Ive looked at over those years finally settled on the 3 designs that most suit my tastes wants and needs in a boat... In the meantime we have sold our previous city property and bought in the bush a property that includes a very large covered area more than adequate to build any boat undercover that I may choose... I have luckily been in a position to be able to spend the money to acquire the tools to build any of the 3 designs and Im steadily gathering timbers too me... this is not a brag but rather to say this is my way... I knew it would be so hence the research and time spent learning and gaining knowledge from others like Mik... others will do it differently so be it I have no problems with that... for them that is their way their reality and their choice mine was as Ive said

Laughing at someone elses method of choice is a bit disappointing mate and Gerrs book like any other written by any man does not have all the answers in and of itself... just as reading Buellers or MacIntosh or Chappell or Skenes or any of the many many others out there is not a means to an end in and of itself

Sorry if that sounds rather hoity toity mate Im not and its not intended rather I with my words only intended to say people do things differently as you know some with huge impatience and yet with massive confidence some slow and steady... the difference is as different and the range of designs for the range of different needs within the range of different types from differnt areas and for different areas... its all relative

Also there are believe it or not others who read here but are not quite as ready perhaps to sit and type their thoughts here as you or I are and often these sorts of threads help them as much as the poster... many dont due to shyness perhaps some due to not wanting to seem a dipstick by asking what may appear dumb or stupid questions etc these sorts of threads can offer help and advice without their need to ask!!

So I guess its a matter of not shooting the messanger eh?!! ;)

And Im still waitin mate!! You were gonna send some pics of that Huon Pine boat... ahem!!

And Im still waitin for some fine West Aussie with an old wooden boat sittin gatherin chook poop and dust in the back shed to give me a hoi!! :(

[Boatmik]

gee you fellows make me giggle at times,are you going to do anything in your life or just waffle on,gerr isbn0-87742-289-3 read and understand that book and you will be laughihg in my humble opinion...

Er, Daddles has just launched one boat about a week ago. I've launched two this year.

I spend the last couple of years building up ooomph to build the two boats this year (as I now see with 20/20 hindsight).

Dingo has been building up steam and will break into action soon.

If you are a real artist - you know this well!

It's just the smarter of us get on with other things while we are going through the periods of steam building.

MIK

[Boatmik]

finally settled on the 3 designs that most suit my tastes wants and needs in a boat...

Well ... fess up oh wily coyote!

[Wild Dingo]

DAMN!! Why must people do that!! :rolleyes: I mean there I go spending an hour writin a bloody fantastic bit of really clear heady disertation and theory thinkin Ive nailed it in under a page Im doing well... and just as I start pattin me back someone like Doc Mik wanders in and in several short friggin sentances says just what I did!! :eek:

buggar that hurts :(

sigh... ah well... you forgot that I have personally designed and built one small boat and restored another along that road Ive also redesigned an old design and created half models of the ones that most please me Ive also become a grandfather had a daughter go missing and found been working away etc etc etc... its all relative is what I meant... Im gettin there!!! ;)

Strewth Im down to friggin 3 designs!!! That is a hell of an achievement!! now if my mind can just settle on one I will be fine... but how does one choose between Crowninsheilds Fame (the one with the fine ends and sexy looks) Petersons Susan (this be the schooner that is designed rock solid) or Wharrams Tiki 38 (which just appeals to me personal asthetic eclectic tastes) ??? bloody damned near impossible!! And hence the need for a project boat :cool:

Otherwise apart form the actual time to build her Im about ready to start :p

[Daddles]

Building these wooden boat thingies is a lot like writing - it's a mix of art and craft. The art occurs in your subconscious, while you're doing other stuff (like trying to work out how you're going to get out of your latest stuff up). The art then comes out through the actions of your conscious and this is where the craft comes in - the exact placement of a line on a plan, taking that extra shaving of timber off, getting the poxy mix just that little bit wrong :rolleyes: .

You can't learn this from a book. You can find new techniques to try, you can discover how other people got around your latest disaster, but you won't learn a damned thing until you go out in the shed and do it.

One of the joys of boats, much like my own game 'writing', is that the path o the end product is individual. Well, it should be, and I keep running into people who think boats should be chosen and conceived and built according to set principles. Well, that works and just as there are a lot of half baked writers producing competent and worse work, I see a lot of that in wooden boats. Hell, some of the forums have reduced wooden boat building to almost the 'cookie cutter' level that f/glass boating is accused of. Pah.

Shane (our beloved Mad Dingo) is a creative builder and the boat he eventually produces will be a joy. That boat will be preceded by many minor steps, such as canoethingy and the soggy mass of boat plans, and each of those add their own pleasure to the boating universe. His decade of racing around and driving everyone who'll listen mad with his searches and investigations, has filled his soul with a love and knowledge that bursts forth in some surprising ways, each wonderful in itself. Even the soggy mass of plans has had its place in that story, in that it has now concentrated all that effort, freed that maelstrom of love and knowledge of the extraneous clutter. The next step in his path might be a restoration. It might be canoethingy on steroids. He might even launch into his dream boat, but each of those is predicatable so I think it'll be something else again.

I for one will be relaxing and enjoying the show ... and ducking the insults.

Richard

would you believe I wrote that on coffee? I need to change my brand :eek:

[Daddles]

Bloody hell, the yanks on the CY forum are, once again, carrying on about Tom Hill's amazing and complicated way of making lapstrake boats hard to build. This time, it's articulated and multipieced plank patterns - sheesh, we planked a 6m Motor Cruiser using no more than a long piece of plywood and a pencil.

Sorry, I've been listening to Moose (TAFE instructor) too much - eighteen months after I finished the course and I can still hear him in my head.

Richard

[Boatmik]

... well a small two or four sheet ply isnt brain science I guess but once you move onto larger boats and in particular large timber sailing boats its an increadible amount of work figuring it all out
Howdy Dingo

Having read your own quote above you probably can guess what I am about to say! :-)

While designing small craft can be approached as not being brain science - if you want a boat that is lovely and works really well ... it certainly is.
__________________________

First can I set the scene - do you remember a film made in the mid 60s "The Flight of the Phoenix". Plane crashes in the desert and when one of the passengers turns out to be a plane designer they set about making a new plane from the wreckage of the old.

Great cast Jimmy Stewart, Richard Attenborough, Peter Finch. A good solid 4 out of 5 stars.

But there is this scene about two thirds through where they have gotten over insurmountable hurdles to have the plane mostly together.

Then they find out the designer designs MODEL PLANES!.

Of course there is a massive crisis of confidence.
_____________________________

There are lots of people who don't do much work or have much background who come up with a new small boat design - a little 2 or 4 sheet boat.

The results might be good enough for themselves - and good on them for trying their arm.

If you are after excellence - a boat that fits the purpose (or purposes) like a glove - is easy to build, has a good appearance and will whop anything similar that comes near it in terms of speed and fun of use - well, then you need a fair bit of knowledge and put a fair bit of it into practice.
___________________________

So to compare the amount of work between designing a proper small boat and a "real" boat.

Aesthetics
Loveliness - comes from history - knowing what boats actually look like. It is amazing what a gorgeous thing you can choose with one carefully selected curved line on what is basically a ply box - here is my best example. This is a flat bottomed square sided boat. But the canny designer has fooled everyone's eyes with one curved line - and the designer had better be able to model it in three dimensions too - because if he gets it a bit out it will look stupid from one angle or another.because it will appear to go down when it should go up.

That line is out of history - out of our race sense of boats. And to manipulate that sense you need to see lots of boats and think about them.
See Pic of BETH Below

Basic Calculations
So now to go to the function. The only place where there is timesaving in drawing up a plan in a small boat is that you don't have to do the elaborate weight calculation to establish the centre of gravity of the boat (both longditudinal and vertical) - you can just move the crew around

In a bigger boat you have to count every piece including crew tankage, engine, where it is in the height and length of the boat and how much it weighs - This figure is essentail for working out the speed prediction for power boats (which feeds into the power requirement) and the stability prediction (which feeds into how strong the rig has to be) for sailing boats.

But every other aspect is the same as a larger boat - how does she trim when heeled, what will happen when she sticks her nose into a wave, will she have weather or lee helm, what are the heeled waterlines doing, is the sailplan in the right place, is there enough lateral area for when the sea gets up.

Engineering
Then we get to the engineering. Small boats have to be portable - which means the bits have to be light. Which means that a designer uses all his engineering skill to get the weight out. To keep things light and efficient.

The small boat designer who is also a good student of history will have a strong sense of just how big things really need to be - so can often do this part efficiently and quickly - just working off what he knows - "brain science" in operation

But if he moves away from what he knows - then he has to do the same calculations as the larger boat.

Construction Schedule and Drawings
One of the time savings in bigger boats is that no-one is going to build one without a reasonable amount of knowledge.

So the designers tend to skimp on detail.

In fact Nat Herreshoff could send down 5 items and his workers could build the boat. They just used his wonderful HERRESHOFF'S RULE to work out the sizes of all the other bits

offsets from the half model,
drawings of the keel arrangement
sailplan
Interior layout
the displacement figure

But as small boat designers we know that for many of the people building it will be the first thing that they have ever built.

When I first worked for Duck Flat my aim was to learn the bits I needed to design boats. And where I learned it was standing at the saw bench cutting up bits for kits that had been ordered. The plans were by a huge range of designers - you get to know pretty quickly as soon as you start sawing wood whether the guy has done a good job or not.

Murray Isles and Iain Oughtred had good timber lists in sizes that were commercially available. There are plenty of designers who STILL don't know thay you can only get kiln dried timber in thicknesses of 50mm - so one dimension of any specified piece has to be less - almost all timber is kiln dried.

Bolger uses good sizes but the info is on the typewritten key to parts - usually a single sheet listing the pieces - the order of the list is the order in which they go into the boat. So you refer to that then go back to the drawing to scale off the length.

It's OK but it is a bit of a pain if you are only a USER and not a BUILDER (see previous posts in this thread). Bolger's fame (and he is one of my guru's too - the most wise of the wise) relies apon the books of Dynamite Payson - which are written step by step with illustrations, as well as his own books which are intelligent and really well written - but as a designer for first time builders he is tricky to follow without Payson or Duck Flat or someone interpreting for you.

It soon became clear that most designers are pretty crappy at this side of things - Bolger is spot-on in his info even if it is a bit sparse.

But a rule of thumb for designers - the fewer boats that they have designed and the fewer boats they have built the worse their instructions are, the more useless bits of timber they have in the boat (more cost, more weight) and the more they are going to mislead someone that it all is so simple.

The person who really lifted the game was Iain Oughtred - anyone who has seen how his plans take a first time builder through the process to build a flawless CLINKER boat with nicely lined off planking will know what the standard can be.

So standing at the Duck Flat saw bench I decided that Oughtred would be the standard for my plans - that they would tell people how to use the materials, how to use the tools, all the different little methods of boatbuilding required for them to get the boat together.

It takes me a couple of weeks to draw up a new small boat (assuming I don't run into any technical or aesthetic issues that I can't resolve - like with the rowboat for Midge and Daddles) but the documentation and illustration can take twice that - and I have to build every step of the boat in my head to make sure it all works - framing allowances, bevels etc

Just as an illustration - everyone (including you Dingo) should go to
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Paddles/FreePaddle.html (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Estorerm/Paddles/FreePaddle.html) and download the PDF file for the free paddle plan - its only 300k

But in those 19 pages is everything you need. 19 pages for a paddle.

I offered it for free so people could see the difference between an OK set of plans and GOOD ones.

And having a good plan is only worthwhile if the boat is any good - that it fits its purpose excellently.

Absolute 100% brain science - if you want to do a good job of it that is.

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Now your just plain scarin the hell outta me! :eek: ;)

Okay so maybe I should offer a sorta apology for my statement alluded to by Doc Mik? No worries... what I meant to say there was that COMPARED to a 30-40ft sailboat a 2 sheet ply in not brain science... well okay it is but NOT AS MUCH! :o

Sadly in some aspects I do believe that we do become somewhat annul about it all... and Im the first to admit my failings in that area :rolleyes: ... we often become bogged down with the science of it all rather than the practicalities of doing... yes one can do all the science do all the things to make the most perfect shape and form for a... paddle... or one can simply make one then as time and use dictate change its shape and form to what best suits the user of the... paddle

And like most things we can make more of it than is actually necessary... a paddle that is ;)

Pedantic Doc Mik pedantic ol chap :p

I do love these conversations! :cool:

[Boatmik]

Howdy Shane,

Another lead - perhaps - now I know you better.

But first some pretty pics - are these the Crowninshield and Peterson boats (respectively, images at bottom).

My general comment about the Wharram is if you haven't got a huge sailing background you might be quite happy with it - scale off the interior distances in the study plans with a bit of care too - don't trust his drawings of little people. BTW I love the look too.

The two schooners are just fabulous. I'll have to eat my words about not building a schooner under the mid thirty foot mark - Peterson has resolved the technical and aesthetic considerations nicely.

Going back to the OZ stuff for a moment - you really need to ring the National Maritime Museum in Sydney and organise to speak to David Payne on one of his days there.

He has such a leaning toward traditional craft that he will have a VERY good idea of what is available on paper from the museum - perhaps all is not lost.

Tell him that you are looking for a real classic, that you have the skills money and infrastructure to build a traditional boat - some capacity to fill in gaps - if not too enormous. And whether he knows of something.

And as a Parthian Shot - as far as brain science between a little boat and a big one ... I'm sticking to my guns son - small boats are perhaps 80 to 90 percent of the work of bigger boats. If you want them to work well - it's not in the drawings - its in the thinking and calculation.

In a good boat there is no gap between the science and the practicality - in a poor one they never meet!

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Aye Mik mate that be them... first bein BB Crowninshields 40ft schooner "Fame" designed 1910 built for his own pleasure 1912... second being Murray Petersons "Susan" at 28ft a rather huge chunk of wee boat and a progression from his Coaster Schooners... his son Bill by the way an NA in his own right has recently redone the Susan with a cutter rig... looks damnable smart to just quietly :cool:

As to Wharram... well mate its the hippy yippie in me.. the lure of the islands and all that as well as the sheer desire for deck space that makes his designs so pleasing... but as always your right one must not take the little frilly bits as gospel in a design such as wee people or birds and such its the numbers that do matter.

Yes yes mate okay you win stick to your guns and I will bow to your experience and say there is a major brain phart in the making with a small boat just as in a large boat there Im an agreeable chap eh! ;)

Now I must get to the shed mate and do SOMETHING before my week off ends and I end up doing zero!! :eek:

[Boatmik]

... but as always one must not take the little frilly bits as gospel in a design such as wee people or birds and such its the numbers that do matter.

Also be warned about the bare breasts and grass skirts - not to mention bare botts that appear in his catalogues.

Have you ever seen what a grass skirt does to a bilge pump in an emergency?

I have always had a yen to redraw parts of Wharram's calalogue.

Instead of 5ft tall perky semiclad nymphs (they do make the interior look both bigger and more attractive) to do 5ft tall retirees wearing cardigans with knotted kercheifs on their heads and ample bellies and nether regions.

Not to mention the sandals and socks.

Ah - truth in advertising.

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

To be honest mate its a detraction for me... sorta like Gardner and his pipe smoker and pelican or Daneil Bombeidear here (http://www.classic-yacht-design.com/) and his fancy art work... mmm come to think on that he was a marine artist as well as designer could explain it eh! :rolleyes: both of whom have some fine designs theyre just a bit over busy to my eye

Just the design is pure enough tantilising enough and motivation enough... as well as that Ive got this imagination thing that can picture what I want without any help from anyone else... to me if you cant see yourself on the deck at the tiller in your mind then the boats not for you... sorta like me and say the bartender or a Kurt Hughes trimarran I cant see myself on one just not me you know?... whereas a Susan or a Fame I can see me plain as day tiller in hand sails full and by and gone over the horizon :cool:

[bitingmidge]

Dingo!

Don't even THINK about a Wharram. Look by all means but DON'T TOUCH.

Bloody hell, I watch this thread, hang on to every word, (except what pimple writes) and then you start being seduced by one of Jimbo's Bimbos....

Aaaaaaaarrrrrgh!

If, I mean IF... no I mean IF you don't cross him off your list of things to MAKE as opposed to admire for all he did, I'll feel compelled to contribute further to this thread, and nobody wants that do they??

IF you want Wharramesque, check out John Hitches Hitchhikers or one of half a dozen evolutions.... or just find a teachest, and crawl into it under a cold shower.

Cheers,

P (They are pretty to look at and VERY cheap to buy though....)
:D

[Wild Dingo]

What an amazin response midge mate! :eek: So is this based on personal experience of Wharrams? and if so which ones and if so why and if so did you build it yourself and if so what were your sailing experiences? please continue the discussion!

You see midge old mate... and I mean this in the nicest way... Ive heard a mass of misinformation regarding them form people who have never sailed them and Ive heard a mass of misinformation from the acolytes of James and Hanneke... and Ive sailed on 2 Tikis one a 21fter and one a 30fter and found them comparable to many others better than some and worse than others on some points... mind you Crowthers designs (Locks not his son) are brilliant but different on many fronts... I as Im getting older am begining to kinda like the idea of a bridgedeck... but then a bridgedeck doesnt sit well on a Wharram does it?

You see mostly when I see a design I like its based on first emotion... I like it from a personal asthetic view I can see myself sailin happily away for years to come... then I loose the emotion and try like buggary to get a ride on one to feel it under my feet... in the case of Fame and Susan thats just not about to happen since I didnt win lotto... again!!... so a trip to the states to have a ride isnt gonna happen any day soon so theyre like some asthetically wonderful dream...

But with some... one can find a design and by hook or by crook manage to cadge a sail Wharrams are easy everyone Ive met with a Wharram is more than happy to have you aboard!!

On the other hand Ive found in my several contacts with James himself that hes an arrogant self opinionated self righteous p****k and personally I cant stand the git... but thats a personal thing not related to his designs I also dont like the way hes taken credit for whats been a design for centuries ie: the polynesian double canoe and the dutch wingsail... from my standpoint I cant fault the Tiki design and mate Im more than willing to sit and read whatever experiences you may have had of a personal nature related to them.

And yes your right they are cheep enough... when you find them for sale that is!... you can build a Simpson for instance and it increases with value whereas a build a Wharram and it seems to quickly decrease in value for some reason which Ive so far been unable to fathom

On a purely asthetic value Wharrams have a romance a quality that spells and screams pacific islands long white beaches palm trees and well... damn it all as Mel Gibson said in Braveheart... FREEDOM!

So mate tell me what it is and why you dont like them... dont hold back son... let it all out!! Its okay I can take it... Seriously I can :cool:

[Wild Dingo]

mmmm I just had a re-read of this ruddy thread of mine and... STREWTH!! Have we taken a diversion and a half!!!

I mean this is a "WANTED" thread!!!

Doc Mik!! You bloody reprobate you did this to distract me from my goals didnt you? You dont want me to get my mits on an old project boat do you?!!! No you dont you cheeky buggar! You want me to see the errors of me ways and start a friggin new build dont yer! I got your number mate!! see you want all those pics eh? new keel sittin purty then the frames goin up then... for the bloody isnt it!!!

see all this other stuff was just a diversion tactic wasnt it? AND it worked!! :eek: hook line and flamin sinker!! :o

ahhh well tis a good enjoyable thread... and maybe someone will recall what the damned thing started about!!... maybe???

[Daddles]

ahhh well tis a good enjoyable thread... and maybe someone will recall what the damned thing started about!!... maybe???

Without re-reading the thread, I can tell you what it started about. It started about the Honourable Mr Dingo needing some intensive and immediate psychoboatic help ... and he got it :D

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

But Richard me young sprog!! AM I CURED??? :o

I mean is it over now that Doc Mik has extrapolated on the various vagaries of this cussed addiction? HAS IT GONE??

I mean I feel somewhat LIBERATED!! I feel a tad... whats the word?... FREE!!! I am able to refuse the lure of a fine transom a snapping halyard a... a... ooooooooooohh buggar that bloody boatpoint site!!! I mean a friggin FIFE!!!! :eek: oooooooooooohhhhhhhh geeeeeeeeezz!! :o an theres that boatlocator cussed place with soooo many beautilishus boats...

So much for Doc Miks majik cureall :rolleyes:

Anyway Richard me ol sock... Ive been recently informed by SHE thats the legendary possumpoop that wee tiny sheila that I love... that SHE will allow but one more boat plan purchase to a figure not mentioned in any of the above... SHE will condescend to allow one and only one boat plan purchase... so as SHE put so succinctly "You (me) better get it right cause there wont be no more mister!"... but how does one choose? And as SHE is yet to diclose the exact financial figure SHE will release how do I decide then promote such decision?... SHE that legenday auderve of womanhood that tiny freckle of a blonde bombshell that gorgeoulishus little flower of Aussie womanhood who has smilingly allowed me my tangents and spending sprees of astronomical astounding levels of increasing insanity has finally decided to shorten the leash... reign in the wallets... hide the credit card... take all finances from my temptation and DICTATE what I can and cannot spend what I work so hard to bring home... SHE now has total control... sigh :(

All is not lost however my wee Crow Eater cobblerone of note!! SHE has given the go ahead for a project boat... "priced within reason"... reason? WHAT BLOODY REASON?? there is no reason associated with boats!! NONE WHATEVER!!... and in this Doc Mik I will have a standup stoush with you AND WIN everytime... reason goes out the window when it comes to boats! Regardless of what your physchoboathypothesis and expodentially scientifically radicalised intellect can come up with... Reason has no place within the word "boat"!

But all is not lost... a project boat I can have... yes yes within an unknown degree of SHE controlled "reason" (which is as we all know an oxymoron of the highest order since SHE has very little controlled reason... SHE did marry me you know!!)... And I will only have to work on my vivid imagination to come up with plausible realistic reasoned reasons for any further future purchases to fix the thing!! :eek: Easy as eh!! :D

I think I can manage to get something into the humpyhoochy without her knowing one weekend while shes off doing some sport (what a swear word that one is! should be banned totally :mad: ) thing with one or the other of the legendary hoonberries... I reckon one could slip a nice whopper boat in there without her knowing and as its some 70ft long by 30ft wide by 25ft high it will remain quite out of her sight for some time!! :cool:

Makin her see the "value" of the sails ordered and delivered in secret by Taskers or some other mob may be a wee tad of a problem if Im away when they come... or the marine engine delivery could cause a hiccup or two given it will be COD... remember? SHE has control of all finances nowadays :rolleyes: but mate whats a wee long distance rant between SHE and moi eh? once here theres nothing SHE can do about it! ;)

However... there is the potential for long termed serious repercussions in managing it this way... Remember Richard me witing cohort of easten states extraction (for which disability as you know you have my eternal sympathy) I have no choice!!...

Alas... SHE will notice the growing line of delivery trucks heading out the back ... SHE will know Im up to something.... SHE will get cranky... And I have no doubt SHE will shut down the financial deliveries into my bank account (ala 10% of my gross income... ahem NO not nett gross and then she taxes THAT!) resulting in a major long walk from Perth one return week when I attempt to put fuel in Effy... On arrival at the "Dingos Rest" SHE will then roundly beat me over the head with a pincushion causing massive injuries... then... THEN!!! SHE will demand equal financial windfall which will include considerable interest on the original amounts spent for her own not to cheep hobbies :eek:

I know I know... its sad... its terrible... its a real shocker of a situation... but well theres no cure for it ol son none whatever other than to aknowledge all that will happen and smile and just go for it!!! :D

I mean SHE will get over it :cool:

wont she? :o

[Boatmik]

Doc Mik!! You bloody reprobate you did this to distract me from my goals didnt you? You dont want me to get my mits on an old project boat do you?!!! No you dont you cheeky buggar! You want me to see the errors of me ways and start a friggin new build dont yer!

Nah Dingo - not at all.

I have been around the advising game for far too long to have any opinion at all about where you should go. It really, truly makes no difference at all.

The payoff for me is when someone picks a boat that matches their need. If you are going to be building for three or four weeks - perhaps it is not too important to analyze the need. But where it may be YEARS I play the Devil's advocate a bit to try and get the person to see for themselves where they may be the happiest.

And it is fun anyhow - this has been a great thread.

With you dingo (anagram of "doing" - very propitious) I know you have the knowledge and grit to get through the process - dammit - look at the length of you posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All you have to do is find one that jumps out at you.

New, old, sitting on the bottom somewhere - it doesn't have to grab anyone but YOU.

And if you can't find one soon (or have it sneak up on you and bite you on your tender bit) I think you need to start something more modest to keep you occupied for 6 months or less - just so all that energy can go somewhere useful - that's the sort of person you are dingo...very probably.

Just don't make too big a meal of it - you have to be ready for the big one.

But you can't just do nothing either.

Mik

[Boatmik]

.. Ive been recently informed by SHE thats the legendary possumpoop that wee tiny sheila that I love... that SHE will allow but one more boat plan purchase to a figure not mentioned in any of the above... SHE will condescend to allow one and only one boat plan purchase... so as SHE put so succinctly "You (me) better get it right cause there wont be no more mister!"... :o
I'm with her - I think she has seen the future in the stars and is trying to save you from yourself Dingo.

She is better at the psych analysis than I am - you have a pearl beyond price.

She has seen your energies being massively, extravagently radiated in all directions and now is wanting to save you from yourself.

She sees that you are not doing what you need to.

She is going to allow you only one direction so
1/ it has to be the right one
2/ all your energy will be going in that one direction
3/ the result will be fabulous.

That's the same thing I was trying to get across. But I was prepared to allow a fallback of picking up a short time project to fill in time without letting you come off the boil.

Its good for both of you to change that money stuff into THINGS rather than a row of numbers - part of the reason for it to be there is to make you both happy.

You lucky lucky bast*rd.

While I do agree that the reason for building a boat is seldom rational (unless there is no other way to get across the local river) it is the mix of rational and irrational that's the fun bit after the initial decision is made.

MIK

[Daddles]

AM I CURED??? :o


Is he allowed to swear like that on this forum? :eek:

Richard

[Daddles]

I think what Mik was trying to say in his last post was - no matter what plan you buy, you will love it :mad: No choices. We don't care if it sinks and uses old condoms twisted together to provide propulsion, no matter what it is, you WILL LOVE IT :mad:

Richard

of course Shane, you and I both know that's boring :D

[Boatmik]

I think what Mik was trying to say in his last post was - no matter what plan you buy, you will love it

Not even vaguely right Daddles.

Shane needs to find the right thing. A project that is worthy - that he can care about on one level or another.

Of course the levels keep increasing and gaining depth as you get stuck in.

It is hard to feel very strongly about a stack of ply - but Yellowtail ...

There has to be something to make you choose that ONE. But after it is chosen the relationship gets more complex and interesting.

But the initial (yeah Dingo - irrational) choice has to be there.

MIK

[Daddles]

Methinks you missed my point Mik:rolleyes: . That was an imperitive http://www.ubeaut.biz/FIREdevil.gif It was a command http://www.ubeaut.biz/nono.gif I don't care what he flamin' well buys, he ain't got no choice but to love the horrid thing ... even if he doesn't :D

Richard http://www.ubeaut.biz/captain.gif

[Daddles]

Oi, what happened to me smilies? I put in some fancy smilies from Neil's extra page and the board keeps changing them to URLs :mad:

Richard:(

[Boatmik]

Methinks you missed my point Mik:rolleyes:

Cool - agreed.

[Wild Dingo]

Dingo!

Don't even THINK about a Wharram. Look by all means but DON'T TOUCH.

Bloody hell, I watch this thread, hang on to every word, (except what pimple writes) and then you start being seduced by one of Jimbo's Bimbos....

Aaaaaaaarrrrrgh!

If, I mean IF... no I mean IF you don't cross him off your list of things to MAKE as opposed to admire for all he did, I'll feel compelled to contribute further to this thread, and nobody wants that do they??

IF you want Wharramesque, check out John Hitches Hitchhikers or one of half a dozen evolutions.... or just find a teachest, and crawl into it under a cold shower.

Cheers,

P (They are pretty to look at and VERY cheap to buy though....)
:D


Calling me often misinterpreted as sane mate Midge!! Oi Sport yer there? Come on mate cough it up phlem and all whats up with the Wharrams of the world? :confused: other than Jimbo that is ;)

[bitingmidge]

Oww... bugger Shane! I thought I'd slipped under the radar!

Give me a day or two to elaborate, but for now, let's just say there are two kinds of multihull sailor:

1) Those that have only sailed on a Wharram, and have been rapt in the ride, handling, and speed on a reach at the very least.

2) Those who have sailed on ANY other multi, and therefore understand just how far the world has come in terms of safety, speed, handling, efficiency and comfort.

In motor car terms, why would you build a Model T Ford from scratch?

But as I said, I'll elaborate in a day or two.

Cheers,

P

[bitofascallywag]

hope my flippant remarks did not upset you hope they inspired you to pull yourfinger from your bum,,,,,,,,,,good luck anyway and i guess i should tell that i start my fire with huon pine....true story.....ha



ha ha and king billy are top morning sticks......ha ha ha and my neighbours son is beginning a new piners punt,i think you heathens called butit a wee yellopw skiff good luck with your project and if you ever need a hand yell out........i am considering a circum and if i do it you will all be able to hit or hug me.......

[bitofascallywag]

wow old mate whats your missus like and when are you leaving as there is only one solid thing said about those cats and that is they have a high percentage of not returning...............

[Boatmik]

hope my flippant remarks did not upset you hope they inspired you to pull yourfinger from your bum,,,,,,,,,,good luck anyway Er dear scallywag, perhaps the finger was not in the metaphorical bum to start with and perhaps you are overstating the importance of your comments.

It is nice to have the ability to remove one's digit, but sometimes some rest time allows the chance for us to work out where one goes next. Becoming busy without a direction is pretty sad really - a worthy project often requires a bit of heartaching.

And there are lots of other activities than just building - some of us use our boats, some like Dingo are into collecting huge amounts of information about more traditional methods - that's partially what he is into (he will be building something significant too - be it large or be it small).

Like myself - I like the design side hugely - I used to sail heaps and do quite a bit of building - but the poor old body is breaking down and can't do either for long stretches now. So mostly design.

There are lots of different motivations out there - even some who are content to be armchair admirals and armchair boatbuilders.

All of it is good process - providing it meets the need of the person.

Have patience, gentle scallywag. The nature of all participants will be revealed in true course.


wow old mate whats your missus like and when are you leaving as there is only one solid thing said about those cats and that is they have a high percentage of not returning...............
Er, you wouldn't happen to have some numbers to go with that "statistic" would you?

Er - didn't think you did ...

It is always good to do a bit of research before making statements that may be taken to be rash.

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

aahh but Mik mate he be slightly right no? I mean when it comes to cats... and wharrams in particular (although no stats are available to prove or disprove my coming comments)... they definantly have a high percentage of "not returning"...

why? CAUSE THEYRE OUT THERE SAILIN!!!! :cool: ;)

could go on to say they yarda yarda yarda long winded over the top pro cat style yak... but I think sufficed to say that many are the cats that just go... and keep on going... be it the nature of the movement of the cat compared to the movement of a mono or be it the amount of space and gear one can take when one journeys forth from shore but seems (albeit without any comparable data to support the statement) that cats seem more likely to be out there sailin somewhere than many a mono who more often than not seems to sit inshore or at the mooring that out sailin places... but I wouldnt say something totally and utterly unsupportable like that would I?! ;)

I think for me the only single thing to have so far stopped me building a cat over a mono is the damned inconsiderate need to build two ruddy hulls to achieve one boat!! :mad: (and hence why I gave up even looking at Tris! :rolleyes: although the old Searunner design still takes me some serious avoiding techniques to move past :o )

Actually Im still rather undecided which style or genre if one likes I want to build... traditional would be the ducks knuts but would I have either the patience or the determination to stick with it for the years it would take to complete... epoxy and fibreglass? Im not too keen on for several reasons one bein the friggin cost of the amount of goop Id need to buy along with ply and such... Im not even keen on the stuff for a small build!! If I was then I would definantly have grabbed a set of John Welsfords Swiftsure design and done that over a long weekend or two... :D or three or more!! anyway a more simpler design if you will than those I keep reverting to... Im also one who LOVES and MUST HAVE... ROOM!... tiny small spaces drive me totally troppo so as I say I keep reverting to larger sized boats which then increases diametrically the costs of materials etc along with time to build etc

I do think Im sorta moving along the same road design sorta appeals in my quieter less manic moods at others the whole shamozzle of building appeals... then the question of time other commitments etc

AND... to take this damned thread back where it started... THAT is why Im lookin for a project boat!! :cool:

[Daddles]

AND... to take this damned thread back where it started... THAT is why Im lookin for a project boat!! :cool:

Why don't you build a three deck ship of the line? Hell, it'll take that much effort to get approval for all those guns that you won't have to start casting them till some time next century :D

Richard

[TK1]

Why don't you build a three deck ship of the line? Hell, it'll take that much effort to get approval for all those guns that you won't have to start casting them till some time next century :D

Richard

Now there's a project to keep him amused for a few weekends:D ...if your back yard is big enough I have plans for the First Fleet ships...build them all, and then we can call you Commodore Dingo :)

[Wild Dingo]

Now there's a project to keep him amused for a few weekends:D ...if your back yard is big enough I have plans for the First Fleet ships...build them all, and then we can call you Commodore Dingo :)

mmmmmm first fleet eh? mmmm aye but I can feel an urge comin on me boyos! :p twould a wee 2 acres be big enough a back yard me ol comrade of the high seas? ;)

But bein as Id be abuildin er on me ownself just the one would be enough aye one be good there bucko ;)

oooh blast an damn ye eyes yer scurvey dog! :mad: ye bein a noodle shipwright an all aye reckon ye be pullin me barnicle :o ... taint no good for capn nor crew havin such a wee ship of the first fleet to sail upon! why one foot on the shore an one on the poop deck would see her sunk! :eek:

By all the mermaids in the baltic mateys I just thought of somethin!! Ifn we can just get started afore lanfall mateys I reckon them scurvy dogs Admiral daddily daddles and Capn Mik the... ahem (not in polite company mateys! :eek: ) will come over an try to shanghai the whole lot of us on some weird adventure...

But aye matey it do have some fine connotations indeed it do... however!!!... if this doesnt take on

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!!

projeck boat!!! :p

[bitofascallywag]

well boatmik you should never really pay too much attention to my posts as i like to stir a bit,but regarding the cats having a habit of not returning,i was merely saying what i had heard from a well respected local mariner and it may have a basis but as to stats i as you said i would not have a clue,speedwise they are a beautiful thing,but if rolled they are a non returning thing. as with most things it is horses for courses and i for one would not like to get caught in one with a westerly coming through down this way .so did you get the pics wild puppy??

[bitingmidge]

regarding the cats having a habit of not returning,i was merely saying what i had heard from a well respected local mariner and it may have a basis but as to stats i as you said i would not have a clue,speedwise they are a beautiful thing,but if rolled they are a non returning thing. as with most things it is horses for courses and i for one would not like to get caught in one with a westerly coming through down this way .so did you get the pics wild puppy??

Sorry scallywag, you and your respected mate are living in the 60's.
There's a bloke called Ian Johnson living down your way more or less, and a lady called Cathy Hawkins. I suggest you get your respected boofhead over to their place for a yarn one day soon. They'll give you the goss on what it's like to circumnavigate in those westerlies on more than one hull.

I don't know where to contact them, but this may be a clue: http://www.woodenboatcentre.com/staff.htm

On the rare occasion that cruising multihulls do capsize (and I stress rare) their hulls provide a perfect survival capsule (read life-raft). The most famous of course the Rose Noelle drifting for 119 days with healthy crew. Try that in your average mono with no mast and a bloody big hole in the side where it left!

Many, many more lives have been lost in cruising monohulls, but they don't photograph well after they've gone down you see, in fact they are never found.

So how about getting some facts just a little bit straighter before perpetrating the myth??

This is not to say that you can't have fun in one hull, you can have lots of it!! Just don't deny others theirs!

cheers.

P (qualified to comment by a few ten-thousand sea miles on multihulls of all descriptions)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[bitofascallywag]

fair enogh midge you have bit me,i shall no longer pass heresay on these forums,one last shot afore i go is that these folklores or whatever they maybe include ferro hulls,now i am not against them by any means but you ask any cray fisherman down this way and they hate them.........home builders maybe?

[bitingmidge]

Ferro, now there's a material I hadn't heard for a while... thought they'd all sunk! ;)

It was actually quite a good material done well but terribly labour intensive to get right. Done well means plastered in one continuous session, no dry joints and with a very carefully controlled mix as well as controlled curing to prevent shrinking as the plaster dries out. If all that was acheived, then there were problems with mechanical fixings, fixing stuff to the hull generally, and keeping the moisture out of the layup.

Good ones are good, or OK, anything else is not OK. The good thing about lots of Ferro boats is that they were so labour intensive, a lot of them never got finished, and a lot of others developed cracks and stuff before they were launched. I've seen more than one completely fibreglass sheathed before launch day!

I saw a couple of trawlers started in ferro, but it's a pretty unlikely material. Steel is good!

If you ever intend to buy one, and it appears to be a goodie, just remember what "concrete cancer" in buildings looks like, and hope that there's no way the moisture can penetrate to the steel.

cheers

P

[bitofascallywag]

so do tell what mad man would ever construct a trawler with ferro?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[bitingmidge]

No one I know!! :eek: :eek:

There are lots and lots of small fishing boats and barges in China built that way though, and I think quite suited to that purpose.

Flat bottomed workboats for lakes and rivers, about 2" thick layup, and when the boats die, they die slowly and don't put anyone's life at risk.


P

[bitofascallywag]

so whats your history midge? me myself and i are a bit of a happy go lucky mug,like the water,quite spots in solitude,taking chances if the time is right,drink a wee tad etc etc so your go but at a guess you are in a city somewhere?

[Wild Dingo]

Midge is as old as mathusala as horribly boat knowledgable as Noah in his youth as cranky as a blocked anul passage on a 100 year old elephant and lives no where near a city... oh hes also a bloody legend in his jocks! :D

Me? Im a friggin legend at anytime in anything just ask me I'll tell yer! no worries!

Born and bred West Aussie lived here all my life several journeys out to the eastern states in my wild youth but always come back here to Best Aussie... love the sea the bush life and love... will do anything for a smile love tellin yarns and gettin a rise from serious assholes from time to time enjoy takin the phiss outta poor sods afflicted with uptheirownassitis

Am also a confirmed sufferer of musthaveboatitis... no cure but an enjoyable malady :cool:

[Wild Dingo]

Well Mik you will be glad to hear I contacted Flori and he put me onto a boat here named Roma in need of restoring but with a great history but the owner wants $7500
Then I contacted David Payne and spotted his paketi design which Im buying

And as they say the rest she is history! :cool:

Cheers for all the imput fellas!