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View Full Version : Introducing, the Yellowtail Yawl



Daddles
31st May 2006, 03:01 PM
As the more observant among you may be aware, I'm building the David Payne designed, Yellowtail :D 14' of plywood clinker beauty. She's the lovely lady shown in my avatar.

The Yellowtail was designed to use one of three rigs - all basically a mainsail and jib - gaff, gunter or bermudan.

Well, I didn't want the mucking about with a jib.

I also wanted a handy work boat that I could sail and explore with on my own or with the kids. As this boat will be basically teaching me how to sail, well, everything that Redback can't teach me, a single sail seemed sensible.

So I had a chat with Mik Storer (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~storerm). Lots of chats over months actually, during which I managed not to scare the good man away.

And today I can unwrap the result.

He's drawn me a yawl with a balanced lug main. The balanced lug is a powerful and easy to use sail and, despite the bad press it gets to the contrary, pretty good into the wind as well. The mizzen gives good balance and control, particularly in keeping the head into the wind in all those situations where it's rather nice to do so - like trying to raise the mainsail. The mizzen is also useful in those really nasty conditions where I'll be sitting in the bar sipping Port and wondering how the silly fools stuck out in it are getting on.

But is she a 'yawl'? Modern pedants will complain that the mizzen is in front of the rudder post and so she should be called a ketch. Well mateys, the rudder hangs off the flat transom, like all good work boats. Mounting a mizzen behind that ain't gonna happen. Besides, the modern definition of yawl and ketch is largely arbitrary.

So we go back to the traditional work boats that spawned this design, in both David's rendering and Mik's re-rigging.

Quoting an email from Mik (why re-write stuff wots writ good :D )

The Yawlboat is a ships boat resembling the Pinnace. So is used for lighting people and modest amounts of goods to and from the mother ship. Some were fitted with rigs very similar to your boat with the masts pushed out to the ends to keep the rig away from the cargo and rowing area. They became known as "Yawl" rigs - where the "Yawl" is a statement of the size/function mix of the boat.


Thus, I present to you, the Yellowtail Yawl http://www.ubeaut.biz/claps.gif

Richard
I'm excited

Wild Dingo
31st May 2006, 04:29 PM
Jolly good show young grasshopper well done well done indeed!! :cool:

Sound advice from Doc Mik to I see ;) damned clever chappie isnt he?! :p

Soooo ahem Richard me ol cobber whens the launch? lets do try to make it during a week off eh wot?!! I was just now talking to her highness about taking a trip to NZ for a week of in a few months and to my great surprise shes agreed!! :eek: so a small jaunt over your way isnt out of the question just need the incentive... nah dont need that just need a friggin reason!! and a launch is a grand reason :cool:

Plus Ive got freinds and rellies over your way that I havent seen for... ooohhh something like 30 years or more!! :rolleyes:

Daddles
31st May 2006, 04:42 PM
Mate, the way I build, it might take me 30 years to finish her :eek:

Thanks for the thoughts. This rig turns her into the boat I've wanted all along. I don't think Mik knew that, but the boats that got me into this wooden boat caper were Iain Oughtred's lug yawls. Given a hull, an intended use and having an insight into the bloke he's designing for, Mik's come up with exactly what I've been lusting for as well. Clever chappy our Mik. Hell, I'm even tempted to listen to him when he tells me I'm doing it wrong now :eek:

Richard

Boatmik
31st May 2006, 06:33 PM
Actually Dingo,

You realise now that you are looking at a Yawlboat.

Or closer - A Ship's Yawlboat.

So maybe Dingo it will fit in very nicely indeedy with your next project. Look splendid looking from the poop down to the yawlboat sitting on stocks on the main weather deck.

Oh me heartys.

Sure there will be a spare cabin for Ship's Carpenter Mr Spurling. Or if you are filled with paying passengers he will be happy to be #2 on the port watch. He will know sailing well enough by then. Hope those fo'c's'le deck seams are well payed.

Looks like both of your boats will have to be finished at the same time!

Now - there's some pressure.

The attachment is to show what a little corker this boat is - the person shown is a little bit shorter than Richard, but has the same spherical butt*cks.

MIK

Daddles
31st May 2006, 06:47 PM
Sure there will be a spare cabin for Ship's Carpenter Mr Spurling. Or if you are filled with paying passengers he will be happy to be #2 on the port watch. He will know sailing well enough by then. Hope those fo'c's'le deck seams are well payed.


Sorry, the dog's got the cabin. But if that nice Mr Dingo would like to bring his 12 guage, he can sign on as gunner :eek: especially if I get her ready for the PuddleDuck racing at Goolwa next year :D

Richard

Daddles
31st May 2006, 06:49 PM
Oops, silly me. Mik was talking about SHANE's boat :o

Doesn't matter, the dog'd probably get my cabin anyway :(

Richard

Auld Bassoon
31st May 2006, 06:54 PM
Richard,

That looks like she'll be a lovely little boat to sail - even if she isn't a yawl :D

Boatmik
31st May 2006, 07:29 PM
The following two statements are True for Yellowtail

She is a ketch
She is a yawl

The following two statements are false
She is not a ketch
She is not a yawl.

Tee Hee.

And I can prove it!

MIK

Auld Bassoon
31st May 2006, 08:18 PM
Aha! a demountable rudder post! :)

Boatmik
1st June 2006, 04:05 PM
No - the reason is that Ketch and Yawl refer to different things historically.

They only got confused with their use in rating rules. Why should a mast moved an inch turn a boat from a Ketch to a Yawl.

All sailing terms are highly function based - why does Ketch/Yawl draw this arbitrary and meaningless line - the boat doesn't suddenly handle differently - and from 40 ft away you can't tell the difference (if it is just an inch).

Brig and Brigantine is deadly precise. Board the Brig, sink the Brigantine and the guy knows he will be understood. Sink the ketch, save the yawl and the crew will look at him like he's an idiot.

The marginal differences between ketch and yawl used to bug me hugely until I read some articles written by L.F. Herreshoff. Richard gives the correct explanation. Above.


A Yawl is a ship's boat resembling the pinnace Read that bit carefully and you are on your way toward having a sparkling subject for dinner conversation!

If you want me to fill in the details I can. Hey Dingo - do you know about this one? It's sorta fun - a bit like "How many ropes are there on a boat?"

MIK hohohohoho

Auld Bassoon
1st June 2006, 07:20 PM
Read that bit carefully and you are on your way toward having a sparkling subject for dinner conversation!



Hi BoatMik,

I stand corrected Sir! It's just that pretty much everything that I've heard or read has suggested that if the mizzen is abaft the rudder then the boat's a yawl, else it's a ketch (other conditions allowing). It must be the ratings issue that you mention.

As to a dinner table subject - only at a YC supper methinks :D

Boatmik
1st June 2006, 07:49 PM
Nah - you can make anyone's eyes glaze over with this sort of stuff.

To me it's sport!

As you can tell from my mammoth posts in Dingo's "Wanted" thread!!!

It is an interesting bit of history though. The Yawl is a hull size and hull function that gave it's name to the rig that was sometimes carried - a rig that kept the masts out at either end so the middle of the boat can be used for oarspeople and/or cargo.

Whereas a ketch - doesn't quite have as much pressure to get that mizzen aft because the boat is often quite a bit bigger.

Note that you can only step the mizzen aft of the rudder post if there is some boat there - most traditional sailing workboats have had stern hung rudders - so we can't blame them for the modern distinction.

My feeling is that you have to go to racing rules - starting in he mid to late 1800s. There were time allowance systems that required some estimation of the power of a sailplan. The more forward you step the mizzen the bigger it can be without upsetting the boat balance - the torque or moment operates though a smaller lever.

So for a sloop you would multiply the sail area by 100%
For a boat with a biggish mizzen multiply the sail on the mainmast by 100% and that on the after mast by 70% (now let's try to think of a name for that sort of boat)
For a boat with a small mizzen the mizzen gets counted in at 40% (and what will be call that).

So I suspect that the afore or abaft the rudderpost is exactly the sort of meaningless dribble that comes out of the mouths of legalistic types. They just stole existing terms and consquently made them lose their real meanings

Not - aRRRRRRRRRRRR - seafaring types like us lot. Wher'd I put me cutlass - its time to cook dinner aRRRRRRRRRRR.

MIK

Boatmik
1st June 2006, 07:55 PM
By the way - ANZWERS has the common definition of ketch but adds

[Middle English cache, from cacchen, to catch. See catch (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=2hsopgpllmg20?tname=catch&sbid=lc05b).]

Its just the common rig on a fishing boat.

So now Yellowtail is definitely both a ketch and a yawl.

MIK

STEPHEN MILLER
12th June 2006, 07:20 PM
If you going to have a mizzen mast sail etc whats the difference than having a jib that runs up youre fore stay gives you more control and your talking about using it to learn to sail a main and jib is a lot easier solution than getting a crik in your neck looking a wear youve been not where you are going with all the rig forward of the helm. A boat the size of yellowtail will not need winches for the jib just jib sheets back to cleats. Access dingies have a jib mounted on a unstayed jib pole that is mounted in tube at the bow to furl the jib in the pole rotates and jib rolls up on it mainsail has the same operation simple jib pole and mast are aluminium tube and access dingies are 10' long sail area is 6 sqm. Its the same old story someone comes up with a good design that works and then someone tries to reinvent the wheel so to speak. I am really starting to wonder about you Richard I see a little more madness creeping in maybe you have bimastal syndrome.

Boatmik
14th June 2006, 12:52 PM
Howdy Stephen,

A good post on your part bringing up the usual objections to these types of traditional rigs. I have been wanting to write something about this to add to my website for some time - so you have given me the chance!!!

Jibs have a number of disadvantages.

1/ Cost - having a jib on a forestay means that you need side stays to keep tension in the jibstay. You also need two sets of sheeting points either side of the boat with expensive cleats - possibly tracks - if you want to be able to reduce the amount of power in stronger winds by moving the sheeting position back - plus the expense of an extra sail (because to get the nice handling qualities you will still need the mizzen - see below for why)

2/ Slow rigging. Boats without jibs are much faster to rig - you just drop the mast in its hole and hoist the mainsail. With Richard's mizzen it is already lashed to the mast - so you just drop the sail in and attach the boom. The sort of rig that Richard has will take about 10 to 15 minutes from pulling up to sliding the boat into the water. (By the way my background is with boats with jibs - From Herons, through NS14s to Sharpies to yachts - and these traditional rigs are much faster to get underway.

3/ Structural loads and simple hull construction - having a jib and sidestays adds a huge amount of load to the boat. The windward stay and forestay often carry tensions similar to the displacement of the boat including crew. This tension is balanced by the compression load in the mast. So the stays are pulling up and the mast is pushing down - this means that quite a bit of effort has to be made to resolve the load in the hull.

With a free standing rig there is little compression load and no stays for tension loads. The hull has a much easier time of it - simplifying construction.

The engineering of the mast is simple - bending load only needs to be considered rather than the tricky problems of dealing with compression and buckling - this makes it easy to engineer a free standing mast so it will never break. And the loads in the hull can be dissipated with minimal modifications to the deck (already perfectly set up to take the side loads of the mast) and the gluing of a single block with a mortice cut in it to the stem/keel structure.

4/ With a stayed rig - count all the bits that can dismast the boat. There are dozens of components that can break and dismast the boat. Shackles, chainplates, swages, vernier adjustors, lashings, turnbuckles. Any single one breaks or comes undone - and you are floundering.

That all these components can be so reliable these days is fantastic - but it comes at a price - the high strength and reliability is expensive. Richard's boat will need none of these bits.

4/ The jib is a pain if the crew is inexperienced. With Richard's boat even with a boatfull of passengers he will be able to push the helm down and tack without anyone having to touch a rope. You can organise a jib to do the same - but the gear to do it is REALLY expensive.

5/ A boat with a mizzen has a wonderful capacity to sit calmly head to wind. Just ease the main and pull on the mizzen and the boat will sit happily head to wind. This can give the crew time to sort out a problem (starting the outboard?), reef or just sit happily drinking tea without the boat heeling all over the place. When at anchor often sloop rigged boats will blow around a fair bit - if this happens with Richard's boat he can just pull up the mizzen and the boat will sit happily.

6/ Jibs are bad sails in strong winds - they flap and shake and attempt to tear themselves to pieces. If you have a racing dinghy - and are a little bit serious - mainsails tend to last a couple of seasons, but jibs will flap themselves out of shape in one. Jibs get much more wear and tear.

7/ Reefing - Richards boat has a couple of deep reefs in the main. The mizzen will very likely never need to be reefed. You can make the boat balance nicely by just trimming the mizzen to balance whatever amount of main is up.

With a sloop the rig goes out of balance whatever you decide to do - furl the jib or reef the main. (in fact the best solution for balance is to get rid of the jib and deep reef the main which brings the centre of effort of the sails back over the centreboard - but you have to get rid of most of the sail to do it which means the boat can be underpowered.

8/ Reefing part 2 - You cant use lazyjacks with jibs. Lazy jacks are the greatest thing for a crusing sailor. YOu can use them on any boomed sail - the lazyjacks run from most of the way up the mast down to the boom on both sides of the sail. If you drop the sail the lazyjacks support the boom and guide the dropped sail to sit on top of the boom. Just drop the sail - nothing else to do. - it is controlled at every point on the way down

To get the jib down you either have to drop it (and go up to the very bow of the boat to stop it from blowing over the side or to unhank it) or furl it around the forestay (expensive gear indeed if you want to make this work).

9/ Performance - The rigs on my Goat Island Skiff (GIS) and BETH Sailing canoe are balance lugs - like the mainsail on Richard's boat.

I can almost race my Beth around a real club racing course equal with a Laser. The GIS will be beaten by a TASER but not embarrassingly so (the TASER is one of the fastest two person non trapeze dinghies around - it sails very close to the speed of a trapeze dinghy).

My feeling is that the bad press for the performance of tradtional rigs was because of stretch in the rigging. Modern ropes like spectra and vectran have very little stretch and I always stipulate them for use in the halyards.

But lets say Beth has 5% less performance than a laser or the GIS has 5 to 8% less performance than the TASER (this is for real races around a real sailling course - not just sailing alongside for a few hundred metres) - it all comes into perspective when you find out the rig for the laser is about 3 times the cost of Beth's and that you can rig the GIS for the price of a Taser Mast (after you count all the other bits that are required to make the Taser's sloop rig work you are around $2500 better off with the GIS).

10 - Bigger Boats and Sail Expense. As you move up in size it becomes almost irresistable with sloops to have a number of different headsails for different conditions. Big ones for light wind and small ones for heavy winds.

So we see yachts with wardrobes of a single mainsail and maybe about 3 to six headsails (not including spinnakers) - Expense, Expense, Expense. A couple of decades ago a boat might carry 10 headsails - but improvements in sailcloth, design, understandng of how sails really work and the rating rules becoming more rationally based have worked to reduce the size of the wardrobe for a particular yacht to a fair degree

The designer's thinking is to draw a sailplan that looks underpowered in the light of a certain rule - then add bigger sails to make the boat perform OK in lighter winds. So you end up with a wardrobe full of sails

The traditional thinking has always been to put enough sail on the boat to make it sail well in light winds but have efficient reefing systems (at least on inshore and coastal boats) to reduce the sail as the wind comes up. So the boat will sail well across a range of conditions with its original two sails.

11/ Inefficiency of a Sloop downwind. On a broad reach or run the jib always flops around uselessly most of the time unless you pole it out - so even though you may have paid for 100 square feet of sail you will be using only 70 of those feet downwind. Poling it out is not an easy process in stronger winds and requires some co-ordination between skipper and crew. And the boat is not free to manouvre much once the pole is set - you have to pull the pole down to go up on to a reach or gybe or tack.

Of course you can improve the performance of a sloop with a spinnaker, but don't start me on the inefficiency, crew effort and co-ordination and expenditure that is necessary with spinnakers. Anyway I have passed spinnakered boats many times in the unstayed Norwalk Island Sharpie Ketches - again in real races. Passing dozens of them. Richard's rig will be just about as efficient downwind as the NISs
____________________________

When I would Choose a Sloop Rig - basically the only reasons I can see are

1/ to fit in with an existing class or set of rules (which still treat sloops favourably - allowing you to have area in the jib that is not counted when the total is counted for handicapping )

2/ I like the look of sloop rigs on modern boats - particularly as they move to shorter footed jibs and big fully battened mains - much better for performance and handling - and reduce the number of jibs on bigger boats to perhaps 3 - while maintaining performance.

3/ If you want the last 5% of performance upwind and can afford the extra sails or equipment to make them perform downwind.
_____________________________

And you don't get much of a "crick in your neck" with a mizzen because you don't have to change the trim of the mizzen much. And you don't have to look at it to know how it trims.

Its purpose is as a balancing sail upwind. So if your boat has too much weather helm you just ease the mizzen a bit or if too much lee helm you just tighten it a bit. You feel what you need by the tiller pressure and just adjust the mizzen to give you what you want.

Downwind you really only have to alter its trim for major course or wind direction changes - and sometimes to balance the helm too if it is oversheeted and causing the boat to round up.

I just have a texta mark on Beth's mizzen which I trim to upwind - and I don't have to touch it when I tack. Much nicer than having to muck around with jib sheets :-) or having to pay for all the extra gear you need to make a self tacking jib work efficiently.

Best Regards

Michael Storer

Daddles
14th June 2006, 01:01 PM
wot 'e sed :D

Richard

STEPHEN MILLER
14th June 2006, 03:27 PM
In the middle of my post I talked about access dinghies
1] Jib is made with a pocket up the leading edge that slips over a pole that is unstayed in a socket and to reef jib the pole has pulley a the bottom which has a cord that goes around and back to cockpit and you pull the cord to reef the jib and jib sheets are lock into cam cleats or you can use jam cleats.
2] Main sail has the same principle the main has a pocket down leading edge slips over mast and furls up same, the main is attached only at rear corner and to adjust sail shape if you reef it or for light winds etc ther is ring the sail is attached to the boom and a control line goes to end of boom through a hole in nylon end cap and back to a jam cleat on boom to control shape

3] Jib pole and mast both sit in sockets and at end of days sailing you reme both and roll sails up on to mast and jib poles.

4] Sailing with a jib if done with a little practice there is little flap our boat is 12 yerars old 10m LOA and LWL of 9.2m it all furls up roller boom furler on headsail all controlled from cockpit and has been use regularly and sails are the same age and are a long way from needing replacement

5] As far as cost if Richard buys from Whitworths and not from Duck Flat the cost will be reasonable.:D

Boatmik
15th June 2006, 01:33 PM
5] As far as cost if Richard buys from Whitworths and not from Duck Flat the cost will be reasonable.:D

Be careful with comparison shopping. Whitworths has a pricing structure where all the glossy bits in their book are dead cheap, but they get the money back on other items - don't you worry about that.

Same trick as Bunnings which has some fantastically cheap stuff but I know their stainless steel stuff is around 2 or three times the price of in a local chandlery - and not of as good quality.

Do comparisons carefully and don't leave local chandleries out of the equation.

Also if you are after advice your local chandlery (or even Duck Flat) might be way superior to Whitworths. Whitworths do have some good highly knowledgeable staff but not in all stores.

Another place smaller chandleries are good is that they often have a better range of stock than Whitworths - which often just carries the most profitable lines rather than the ones people actually need.

Recently I was interstate and had the manager of one Whitworths promising me on his mother's grave that a particular rope was spectra. I knew it wasn't and corrected him with use of a catalogue. BTW the price of that rope was about 30% higher than the chandlery I used to work in and about 20% higher than the Duck Flat price.

So ... do your comparisons carefully. There is nothing wrong with other chandleries, Whitworths or even Duck Flat. Just do the comparisons right (and don't do the common trick of getting advice at one place then buying it at another - pay for the advice by buying the product - or some of it!!!)

Best Regards
Michael Storer

Boatmik
15th June 2006, 01:47 PM
Hi Stephen,

The thing about traditional rigs is that you don't need to buy any of the bits and pieces that you mention.

Just some rope and a few blocks (for Richard's boat probably a grand total of about 8. But no wire, no chanplates, no tracks, no rotating masts, no jib booms - very few moving parts.

The Access dinghies work well for their purpose but there are big problems in scaling up the technology to bigger sails and for boats that will be used in all sorts of conditions. The smallness of the Access dinghies and their sails allows the loads required to reef a jib or mainsail by the methods you mention to work.

The guys who make the access dinghies have spent a huge amount of time making sure all those bits work well. A traditional rig will work first time with a few written instructions - as Richard has demonstrated with Redback.

Best Wishes
Michael Storer

STEPHEN MILLER
16th June 2006, 06:31 PM
Ill just remind Richard to laminate those instuctions otherwise the paper is a bit hard to read when it gets wet.:D

Mik I get all my stainless bolts screws etc from Taylor marine or United fasteners plus all my double braided rope etc from Taylors because they sell so much to fishing industry there price is usually the best. Whitworhs are the cheapest cleats pulley blocks etc.